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/ Colormap • Page 9525 • {1/111} (1)Friday, 6 April 2001 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.28 a.m. (5)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good morning, ladies and
gentlemen; good morning to the technicians, the interpreters; good
morning, members of the registry, counsel for the Prosecution, Defence;
good morning, General Krstic.
We are now going to resume our work by bringing in our witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, General Hadzihasanovic. Let me remind you that you're still under an oath. You may be seated. We are now going to continue with your testimony. General, we were still at the narrative part of your testimony. I (15)hope that the documents were properly marked for identification yesterday and that that problem has been taken care of. So I think that you may continue.
WITNESS: ENVER HADZIHASANOVIC
[Resumed] (20) • QUESTIONED by the Court: [Continued]
• A.: Good morning to you, Your Honours. Yesterday in my statement I
wanted to give you an idea of what the 28th Division looked like, what its
strength was, its weaponry, and its combat readiness. So I don't think
there's anything particular to add to what I stated yesterday concerning
(25)that issue, unless you have certain questions. But I think that you asked
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the date?
• A.: Because I had a task, with a group of other people, to receive the
members of the column and to see what had happened with the members of the
(15)28th Division. According to my knowledge, the attack, the intense attack
on Srebrenica started on the 6th of July from the southern side of
Srebrenica, from the direction of Zeleni Jadar, Pribicevac, Zalazje and
Zvijezda villages. I also know that it was there that the Serb forces
started their first offensive activities towards Srebrenica; that is, they
(20)started moving towards north.
The front line was pierced there, and the division command
requested the UN forces to try and inform all relevant factors of those
attacks, and also, of course, to try and prevent them. That was done in
various ways, through a certain period of time, and I cannot give you any
(25)detailed information about that, but I know that there were negotiations
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General Hadzihasanovic. I think that you passed -- that you covered the points that we're interested in. I am now going to give the floor to the two parties; that is to say, (10)I'm going to ask them if they want to take the floor. Mr. Harmon, do you have any questions for your part? MR. HARMON: I do, Mr. President. Good morning. Good morning, Your Honours, counsel. General Hadzihasanovic, good morning. If the witness could be (15)provided with Prosecution Exhibits 898 through 904. • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: General, we're going to start with an exhibit that is marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 904, and as soon as you get it, I'm going to ask you to read it, to take a look at it to see if you're familiar with it, and (20)then I'm going to ask you for your comments about it. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, are we starting with 904? Could you place the English version on the ELMO.
• Q.: General, the reason I ask you about this particular document is
you touched upon the materiel that was available and the manpower that was
(25)available to the 28th Division within the enclave. And I'd like you to
(5) • A.: This is a document of the 28th Division sent to the command of the 2nd Corps, as far as I can see. • Q.: That's correct. • A.: And I can see that it was indeed signed by Ramiz Becirovic. I have not seen this document before. Quite obviously, it was not sent to (10)the headquarters of the Supreme Command. But may I take a few moments to read through the document? Yes, this is a report, a situation report, dealing with some activities of the 28th Division, and it is sending out information where and when events occurred, as far as I can see from this document. (15) • Q.: Now, could you comment, General, about the contents of this document to the extent that you could touch upon, briefly, any activities that were of a nature where the 28th Division troops were going into territory that was occupied by the VRS in conducting operations. I don't want a long exposition on it, but can you touch briefly on that subject, (20)to the extent that you're familiar with it.
• A.: I don't know why the army of the 28th Division would undertake any
combat activities, because everything that we did in these parts, and the
instructions we gave to the 2nd Corps, for the most part referred to the
other units and did not apply to Srebrenica and Zepa. Therefore, the
(25)instructions -- we did not send out instructions from the Main Staff for
(5) • Q.: All right. Now -- • A.: At least, as far as I'm aware of. • Q.: Now, General, just based on this document, is there any reason to dispute the content and the substance of this document? • A.: The contents of the document I cannot dispute because the document (10)was written by the Chief of Staff and signed. So I suppose he wrote the truth. I personally do not know about these details. • Q.: Let me turn my attention now to another set of documents, General. MR. HARMON: And if the witness could be provided with the (15)remaining documents, please. That would be Prosecutor's Exhibit 898 through Prosecutor's Exhibit 903.
• Q.: And while these documents are being distributed, General, the
Court has heard evidence about a document. It is Prosecutor's Exhibit
425. I'm sure you have not seen this document, but -- so I will acquaint
(20)you with parts of this document. It is a directive for further
operations, Operation 7. It is dated March 8th, 1995, from the Supreme
Command of the VRS. It is a lengthy document and it is signed by the
Supreme Commander, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.
I'm not going to have you review it, I'm just going to summarise
(25)it for you. I'm going to read a part of -- two parts of this document.
• A.: Yes.
• Q.: Let me show you, if I could, and if we could put Prosecutor's
Exhibit 898 on the ELMO and, General, do you have the B/C/S version 898 in
(25)front of you?
• Q.: Now, this -- I'm going to show you 898 through Prosecutor's Exhibit 903, which are a succession of documents that were issued by the 28th Division. They are situation reports. They have all been authored (5)by Ramiz Becirovic, and let me direct your attention, in this particular document, at this time, to the section dealing with humanitarian situation. Could you read that? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Now, this is a document that, in this particular document it says,
(10)that the humanitarian situation is extremely hard, and Ramiz Becirovic is
requesting that constant efforts be made to deblock the humanitarian
corridor to Srebrenica and enable the regular distribution of food,
supplies to the local population.
Now, could you turn to the next document, Prosecutor's Exhibit
(15)899, and I'd like to direct your attention, General, to the last
paragraph, number 4, entitled "The Humanitarian Situation." And this is a
document 899, I'm sorry, that's dated the 6th of July. Let me read you
this part of the document, General: "The situation continues to be
extremely difficult. The food convoy announced for today has not
(20)arrived. Elderly and weak persons are in an exceptionally difficult
situation due to starvation. The first people to die of hunger in
Srebrenica after the demilitarisation were registered today. I request
that every effort be made to deliver food to our area."
Now, General, I'm just going to take you through these series of
(25)documents. If we could turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 900, which is the
• A.: I can. But, Mr. President, I would do this in the following way; what I am going to say now I was going to say at the end of my presentation, at the end, but never mind, I can say it now. (10)May I use a piece of paper that I have prepared in order to give an answer to the question that has been posed? MR. HARMON: I have no objection to that. • A.: I can say the following: Srebrenica was the final act of an overall scenario when it came to the Podrinje area and the task of the (15)Drina Corps. I say this because it emerges from the following: The way in which that final act was realised, was implemented of this scenario, is the kind that you have read out. Because the ultimate goal was to do away with all the non-Serb population in the Drina River belt and that the non-Serbian population must disappear from those parts so that the Drina (20)should no longer be a border between the states, the Serb states. I say this because I know that the assembly of Republika Srpska on the 12th or the 15th of May, I'm not quite sure, 1992, adopted its strategic goals where that was stated. That goal, under point 3, was implemented by the Drina Corps. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Visnjic, I know what your
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, unfortunately, I must say that the witness is overstepping the frameworks of the question and the topic that we are discussing today. And as I can see, he has a (5)prepared document and is using it for that purpose. So my objection is to his answer, first of all, and, secondly, the use of any prepared document in doing so. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the circumstances why this column left (10)is important. I asked the witness questions about events and circumstances that led up to their departure. He commented on this in his direct examination, or his examination, his statement to the Chamber. I'm not aware of any documents that this witness may have or has prepared. I don't know what it is. It may be documents that are already (15)in evidence, as far as I know. Until I can see what the document is, I'm not in a position to comment on whether he should or shouldn't show it or whether he can discuss it.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I think that we spent a lot of
time discussing the importance of the region of Podrinje, and I'm sure you
(20)will recall that General Radinovic spoke at length about that issue. I
think it is important for us to be able to gain a full understanding and
it is precisely because of that that the Chamber summoned this witness to
gain an overall view of the occurrences around Srebrenica.
With respect to the document the General used, we said previously,
(25)we heard previously that the General was using notes. If he has a
• A.: This is not an official document. This is a piece of paper on which I jotted down some things so as not to make a mistake. I quoted -- I wrote down the exact words and sentences of a document which is an (10)original document, and that is the piece of paper that I'm now using. I have written down the exact words of that other document. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I see Mr. Visnjic on his feet. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] As far as I understood, the witness wishes to read out a note he has made but which, in fact, is the text of (15)another document. Then we have a problem again. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Hadzihasanovic, to avoid any speculation, would you try to answer the questions put to you by the Prosecutor directly, please. Then we will have no need to debate this point. I'm going to ask Mr. Harmon to rephrase his question or state his (20)question again. MR. HARMON:
• Q.: General, I had asked you to comment on the materials that I had
shown, and you were going to comment on that using some notes that you had
prepared, and I take it you wanted to reference certain events or certain
(25)details that would support your comments. Am I correct in that?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General. Tell us in your own words. I think that if we can avoid -- we will be able to avoid difficulties if you say it in your own words, please, General. • A.: Yes, of course. I wish to assist the Trial Chamber, and that is (10)what I'm going to do. You asked me the question about the methodology of work in that area, in those parts, and the orders that were issued to the Drina Corps - amongst others, the prevention of humanitarian aid - all methods were resorted to for the Drina Corps to be able to complete the assignment (15)it had been given. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, can we hear the end of what the General is saying? But go ahead, as you're on your feet. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, as far as I understood, the General says that he was asked a question. I don't see (20)that Mr. Harmon has actually asked him that question. He seems to be answering another question now, a different one.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I think that the question asked
by Mr. Harmon - and Mr. Harmon will put me right if I'm wrong - is, to my
mind, that he showed the General a whole series of documents speaking
(25)about humanitarian aid. As you know, the General was the Chief of Staff
(5) MR. HARMON: That's correct, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Therefore, General -- there, Mr. Visnjic, the General was answering that question. I think he grasped the meaning of the question and undertook to answer it. General, please proceed. (10) • A.: I did understand the question. Let me begin again. In view of the task assigned to the Drina Corps, and I know about that task, that assignment. The assignment was to eliminate the Drina River as a border between the Serb states, and the whole belt along the Drina River valley, and all the corps of the army of Republika Srpska had the task of making a (15)delineation with respect to the other two peoples. So in addition to military activity, they resorted to other ways and means as well, amongst others, to prevent humanitarian aid and assistance, and this was confirmed in the document of General Mladic. That would be my answer. MR. HARMON: (20)
• Q.: Let me turn to another subject, and that is the testimonies that
this Chamber has heard in respect of the shelling of the town of
Srebrenica in civilian areas. I'm going to first of all read to you two
testimonies of Defence witnesses in this trial. The first is a testimony
of a Witness DC, a protected witness, and my colleague, Mr. Petrusic,
(25)asked the following question, and I'll only read part of it, part of the
• Q.: And since you said that you yourself were in the town of (5)Srebrenica -- And I will now stop. This is referring to the 11th of July. Let me start again. • Q.: And since you said that you yourself were in the town of Srebrenica, tell us, please, whether the town of Srebrenica (10)was damaged; and generally, during your stay in the area, did you hear or see artillery weapons being fired? • A.: There was some fire from artillery weapons, but very little. The fire was targeted at fortified Muslim positions. There was no need to do that. The town of (15)Srebrenica was not shelled at all. Not a single shell fell on the urban part of the town. Not a single building was damaged when we entered the town on the 11th of July. • Q.: We have heard here that within a span of several hours, 200 shells were fired. Would you agree with that? (20)
• A.: No. No. I said there was some artillery fire, but of a
very limited extent, and it was mostly targeted at Muslim
bunkers.
Now, let me read the testimony of a witness who testified in this
proceeding. His name was Zeljko Borovcanin. He testified in open
(25)session. And Mr. Borovcanin was asked, and I'm referring to the
(5)
• A.: As I said, until the 9th, my unit did not move from a
starting position. Every day we heard occasional
detonations, but these were occasional; they were not
numerous.
Now, Witness, I'm going to draw your attention back to some
(10)exhibits that we've previously discussed. If I could turn your attention,
and with the assistance of the usher, if we could have 899 placed on the
ELMO and the B/C/S version given to the General. What I'm going to do,
General, is I'm going to read to you parts of the report from
Mr. Borovcanin - I'm sorry - Mr. Becirovic's combat reports, and I'm going
(15)to ask you at the end to comment on the contents of the comment -- of the
reports from Mr. Becirovic and the testimony that I've just read to you by
two Defence witnesses. If I could direct your attention, first of all, to
Prosecutor's Exhibit 899, under the section, the first section, dealing
with the aggressor. I would like to read from a portion of this, about
(20)two-thirds of the way down:
"Hundreds of shells were fallen on the lines of defence and
civilian targets. As the day progresses, the aggressor's attacks seems to
intensify, so that artillery shells are even now practically raining down
on our defenders along all the lines of defence."
(25)It goes on to say in this report: "So far, over 20 shells were
(25)
• A.: I'm sorry, but we don't have any documents of the 2nd Corps
• Q.: And what do you say about the two testimonies that I have read to you from Witness DC who was a member of the VRS, and Zeljko Borovcanin, both of whom say there was little shelling on the city of Srebrenica? Do you have any comments on that? (10) • A.: I do. If the town of Srebrenica was demilitarised and if there were no military targets in it, the town should not have been shelled at all, not even slightly. It should not have been shelled at all. In town, there were civilians. I don't know what justification they had to target the city centre regardless of how many shells fell. (15) MR. HARMON: General, I have no additional questions. Thank you very much. No additional questions, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. Perhaps we shall begin with the questions from the Defence now. (20) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Or would you prefer a break, Mr. Visnjic?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] We will be using some exhibits, so
we would use the break to prepare the documents with the registry's
(25)assistance.
(5) --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated, General. You are now going to answer questions which Mr. Visnjic is going to put to you. (10)Mr. Visnjic, your witness. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. I should like to ask the usher to give the witness Exhibit C2. • EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: • Q.: General Hadzihasanovic, yesterday, you told Their Honours and the (15)parties about a number of tables regarding statistics. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Before we consider this exhibit, would you be kind enough to see the attached document on the basis of which I assume these tables were made. There is the organisational structure of the command, these three (20)binders. My question has to do with the division command organisational structure. The department for intelligence affairs is directly subordinated to the commander. It is not part of the staff, am I right, of the headquarters staff?
• A.: Just a moment, please. Let me have a look at the table. It is
(25)Table 1.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, would you please also help us find our way with the document so we can identify the (5)document you're talking about. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I received from the registry yesterday the attachments that the General used to explain the role and position of the 28th Division. So it is binder number one, if I can call it that, and the first document in it which is the organisational (10)structure of the division command. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Yes. We have it now. It is a set of documents marked BR1, and then it is page two of that document; is that right? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, then. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, to facilitate things as the document is only in the Serbian language, in the left-hand corner, the third line from the top, you find the Department for Intelligence Affairs, that is the first box to the left, which, according to this (20)table, is directly subordinated to the commander. • Q.: During the testimony of expert witnesses, both of the Defence and the Prosecution, we heard that the department for intelligence affairs mostly comes under the headquarters supreme command. I was wondering whether this same structure was accepted in the BH army? (25)
• A.: The one that is presented here?
• A.: Yes, you are right. • Q.: Could you now consider Exhibit C2, please. General (5)Hadzihasanovic, could you tell Their Honours on the basis of which data did you prepare the total number of weaponry in Srebrenica and when that weaponry was reviewed? I'm mainly talking about the right-hand side of this table. • A.: On the basis of the situation in the 2nd Corps immediately prior (10)to this, because there were periodic reports on effectives in the unit. Unfortunately, I didn't bring that document with me.
• Q.: General Hadzihasanovic, let me now quote from an interview
published in the newspaper Oslobodjenje on the 28th of August, 1996, and
it is a conversation between Naser Oric, General Halilovic, and a third
(15)person, Rusmir Mahmutcehajic. Yesterday's witness confirmed the
authenticity of this document, so I would like to draw your attention to a
particular point made during that interview:
"Naser was ordered to surrender the faulty and useless weapons,
and that is how he acted. Three to four thousand rifles remained in our
(20)hands, not counting the Zepa Brigade. Let us round it off. About 3.500
men under arms, and we also had most of the heavy weaponry, and what was
handed over to UNPROFOR was also accessible to them."
General, does Naser Oric have any interest in mentioning a larger
number of rifles in the hands of the 28th Division, or rather, the forces
(25)in Srebrenica, than they had?
• Q.: General, are you quite convinced that you had complete documentation regarding the state of weaponry of the 28th Division or the state in Srebrenica on that particular date? (10) • A.: I believe that I did, because I used a document which was for me an official document, which reached the 2nd Corps from the 28th Division. Whether somebody provided accurate data or not, I don't know, but I used that document. • Q.: General -- (15) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Could I ask the usher to give the witness Defence Exhibit D52, please. • Q.: General, we will remain with this pattern, with this table, until this exhibit reaches you. I should like to draw your attention to the column referring to the M57 hand-held launcher. Again I'm talking about (20)the second half of the table and the situation regarding armaments in Srebrenica. Could you please look at the document of the command of the 28th Division of the 2nd of June, 1995. Have you seen this document before? • A.: No. (25)
• Q.: General, do you know a person called Semsudin Salihovic, or
• A.: I have heard of him. • Q.: General, was he a captain by rank at the time? • A.: I'm afraid I couldn't tell you for sure. I knew the ranks, names, (5)and surnames of the commanders and chiefs of staff; however, I was not familiar with the other members of the command. • Q.: Do you perhaps remember that he was responsible for logistics? • A.: Probably, since he signed such a document. • Q.: General -- (10) • A.: I don't know him, however. • Q.: From this document, General, it can be seen that an oral order was given by the Chief of Staff of the 28th Division on the completion of combat sets, and within the framework of this order I wish to draw your attention to the mention of shells for the hand-held rocket launcher M57. (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Would you agree with me, General, if I say that on the 2nd of June, 1995, units of the 28th Division were given a total of 45 shells for the hand-held rocket launcher M57, on that day alone? • A.: I see 45, if I've added them up correctly. That is evident from (20)this document.
• Q.: General, if 45 shells were distributed in just a single day, and
if we assume that there wasn't a single such mine for the hand-held rocket
launcher M57 there before the 2nd of June, doesn't this number already
call in question the document that you don't have with you now? Because
(25)you said that the total number was 39; however, here we see that in a
• A.: I repeat: I used the document of the command of the 2nd Corps - I'm sorry I didn't bring it - and that is the figure that I got from that document. (5) • Q.: General, could -- • A.: The difference is six shells. • Q.: Yes, General. The difference is six shells, on condition that the units didn't have a single mine on the 2nd of June, 1995. According to this, the difference is six shells. (10) • A.: Yes, I agree with you, but without any condition. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Could I ask the usher to give the witness Defence Exhibit D47, please. • Q.: General, you told Their Honours yesterday that part of the materiel of the 28th Division were distributed by helicopter. Did I (15)understand you right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: General, this is a document dated the 7th of February, 1995. It is Exhibit D47. Is this a document which you yourself sent to the 8th Operative Group and the Zepa Brigade? (20) • A.: The 7th of February, 1995? My signature is not on it. There were documents that I sent, but they're signed by me, so I don't know how this document was compiled. I did send documents, but each of my documents is signed.
• Q.: General, did you send documents by electronic means to the command
(25)of the 28th Division?
• Q.: General, the document shown to you by the Prosecutor a moment ago, wasn't that also a document that was not signed by Mr. Becirovic and that was sent in a similar format? (5) • A.: Yes, that is why I said that those were documents sent by Becirovic to the command of the 2nd Corps and not by me. • Q.: General, did you, in the night between the 6th and 7th of February 1995, send to the territory of the enclaves a certain delivery of weapons, a certain consignment of weapons? (10) • A.: Let me give you a complete answer so as not to waste any time. I did dispatch a helicopter on the 31st of December, that was the first one. I dispatched a second one on the 10th of January; a third on the 6th of February; a fourth on the 11th of February; the fifth on the 16th of February; the sixth on the 22nd of February; the seventh on the 19th of (15)April; the eighth on the 21st of April; the ninth on the 30th of April and the tenth on the 7th of May. And that is correct. That is true. • Q.: Yes, General. • A.: I said yesterday that I had dispatched some helicopters. • Q.: In this consignment, was there about 90.000 rounds, of which (20)66.150 were intended for Srebrenica? • A.: Do you want me to read out this? • Q.: No. • A.: Only rounds of 762 millimetres. • Q.: Which ones? (25)
• A.: I sent two kinds.
• A.: Srebrenica received 354,658 and Zepa, 173.600 rounds. This calibre, this times 39. • Q.: General, in the consignment of the 18th of January, was there a (5)total of 147.000 rounds? • A.: On the 18th of January? On the 18th of January, there were no deliveries. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Can I ask the usher to give the witness a document dated the 18th of January 1995. I apologise, it's my (10)mistake. • Q.: General, what is a nitroglycerin rifle? • A.: The word speaks for itself. A rifle that has a drum with room for six or eight bullets, and the bullets contain nitroglycerin, as far as I am familiar with the technical properties, but the simplest way is to take (15)the manufacturer's instructions and see in detail. • Q.: What is the purpose of that rifle? Does it increase its lethal effect? • A.: No, it -- that is a particular type of weapon. It isn't increased or decreased. That is how it is. Is it permitted by Geneva Conventions? (20)I think it is. Other armies have it also. • Q.: General, did you, in this document of the 18th of January 1995, intimate about 150.000 rounds for Srebrenica?
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we're referring to a new document.
The copy I have does not have an exhibit number for purposes of
(25)reference. I think it should be given one.
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the document is (5)D179. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam registrar. THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that is the number that I have given to this document. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Please continue. (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: General, I should like to draw your attention to the third sentence from the bottom on this document. It says: "Please keep this confidential in relation to everyone, and especially in relation to UNPROFOR." What does this mean, General? (15) • A.: We had information that at times certain matters were disclosed through UNPROFOR, and the secret that this was arriving was no secret. UNPROFOR saw the helicopters. They saw them in Tuzla as well. It was no secret for them or this document. The document is dated the 18th of January as an announcement, but because of weather conditions, we probably (20)waited until the 6th of February when the helicopter was actually dispatched.
• Q.: General, in one of the explanations you provided yesterday with
regard to the needs that the 28th Division would have needed to break
through the encirclement, you said that the 28th Division would have
(25)needed to have had 502 tonnes of cargo to carry with it; am I right?
• Q.: Yes, of course, but it's your document. • A.: Yes, but I should look for my own copy or could you give it to me. I don't have it in front of me. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, you may consult your documents. • A.: May I take it out of my bag? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Yes. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] C5. This is a document which has (10)not been marked for identification so could we mark it as C5, please. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No, Mr. Visnjic, because we already have a C5. If this is a new document ... MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Then it has already been marked, I assume. (15) THE REGISTRAR: It was already marked C5. • A.: Could you please repeat your question? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: I'm referring to the minimal needs of the 28th Division for its breakthrough from the encirclement, and the weight in tonnes as the total (20)at the bottom, it says 502 tonnes of cargo which the 28th Division would have needed to carry with it during the breakthrough; am I right? • A.: I think you misunderstood. Allow me to explain. • Q.: Yes, please do.
• A.: For the 28th Division to have all the weaponry that it was
(25)lacking, according to these books, and in order to have five combat sets,
• Q.: Can I go on from there? (5) • A.: Which means that when a division embarks upon an offensive or a breakthrough, it needs all of that, but a soldier carries his weapon and one combat set. When a battalion is being transported, according to transport, in the transport vehicles, there should be another combat set -- I'm sorry, two combat sets. And in the brigade transport, another (10)two -- I'm sorry, one, and in the division transport one, which makes it a total of five. As soon as a soldier has used his set, he gets it from the battalion, the battalion from the brigade, the brigade from the division, and the division asks a high-level command to provide it with extra (15)ammunition to be able to continue the offensive. • Q.: Do I understand your answer correctly, hypothetically speaking, when the 28th Division embarked upon its breakthrough, it would have had to have logistics support which could have carried 502 tonnes of cargo to be able to use it up as they went along? (20) • A.: I don't know what you mean when you say "to carry with it." I have just explained. • Q.: My understanding is if the division is on the move, then at least the combat set belonging to the division must also move with the division?
• A.: This weight indicated includes the weight of side arms, personal
(25)weapons, ammunition, communications devices, and at least one canvas, one
• Q.: General, can we agree -- I think we can agree that the 28th Division did not constitute any particular danger. However, if we take it (15)in a context, together with the activity of the 2nd Corps, wouldn't it constitute a danger for any kind of division if they have a unit of 5.000 men behind them, armed men? • A.: They were not armed, first of all. Then the second thing is that the status of the division was known. It was located in a protected area, (20)and the town itself was a demilitarised town, and it did not have any weapons or equipment in it. So it did not constitute a danger.
• Q.: Yesterday, on page 954
[as interpreted] of the transcript, you
stated that the helicopter sorties were probably a signal for the Bosnian
Serb army that something was brewing and that they might expect some
(25)combat operations to take place. However, you stated that with full
• A.: It is only perfectly normal that I stated that, and I have to tell you why. (5) • Q.: General, could you please tell us, first of all, if you said that or not? • A.: Yes, I did, but I would like to give you an explanation. • Q.: Let me first ask you a question, General. The 28th Division, that is, the Serb forces, were they ever officially informed by the BH army (10)that the BH army was arming the 28th Division? • A.: Why would they inform them of that fact? • Q.: General, the weapon delivery and helicopter sorties, were they coordinated with some other activities that the general staff of the BH army was conducting in relation to the overall objectives of the BH army (15)concerning the enclaves and in the Podrinje area? • A.: I don't know what kind of objectives you are talking about. Helicopter sorties had nothing to do with that. Our objective was to try to alleviate the catastrophic situation in Srebrenica amongst the military and the population as well. We had to (20)do something to calm them down and to provide our division with the minimal needs in case they are in a position to defend themselves. That cannot be prohibited by anyone. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Can I have Exhibit D42 and 43, please, prepared for the witness. (25)
• Q.: General, what is the Grasshopper operation?
• Q.: General, could you have a look at the Exhibit D42, which is in front of you. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, do we have an English or a French version of the document? I would prefer a French one. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, unfortunately, I prepared the documents in B/C/S for myself. I don't know whether my (15)learned friend from the Prosecution has them. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon? MR. HARMON: We have an English version, and I will submit this to the usher to put on the ELMO. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] If you can help us with it, (20)please, yes, so that we can follow. Thank you. • A.: What is your question? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: General, is this a document which was issued by you?
• A.: I have to clarify something here. Sometimes, because of the
(25)selection of things that we could send through the usual communication
(15) • Q.: General, Exhibit D43, could you place it in the same context as this one?
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Visnjic, I'm sorry to go
back to the Exhibit D42 for a second. I should like to see the signature
of General Hadzihasanovic on the document.
(20)Could we see it on the ELMO, please. The signature, that is, the
place where we can see the final part of the document D42, the end of the
document itself. I don't see it on the ELMO. I can't see it on the
ELMO. Can you hear me? No, the English version, please. D42, the second
page. Yes, that's the one. Thank you.
(25)General Hadzihasanovic, what does "Deputy Commander" and "Chief of
• A.: The meaning is as follows -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did you have both functions at the same time? Can you explain this to us? You were deputy commander and (5)chief of SVK? • A.: This concerned this particular period of time. When General Delic was present in the area, I didn't have that function. When he was absent from Bosnia and Herzegovina, until his return, I was fulfilling the function of the deputy commander. There is an organogram of the structure (10)of the staff of Supreme Command, and that's what the situation was at that time. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Hadzihasanovic, when the commander was present, were you Chief of Staff? That is, when he was absent -- and when he was absent, you were the deputy commander; was that (15)the case? • A.: Yes. And I dealt with only certain urgent matters that could not wait. But everything that could wait for the commander would, of course, wait for his return. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So when the commander was (20)present, you were an assistant, like other assistants, or was there any difference? • A.: I was in charge of the staff itself. I was the Chief of Staff, that is, of a group of people, a group of military professionals. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you, General. (25)
• A.: And the staff had its own structure. If you have a look at the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, General Hadzihasanovic. Mr. Visnjic, please continue. (5) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: General Hadzihasanovic, let us stick with this document D42 for a while, but I should first like you to have a look at D43, because I have a few questions concerning that document. • A.: I have 62 written on my document. 43B? (10) • Q.: Yes, and the previous document, 42, which is still on the desk. • A.: Yes. • Q.: General Hadzihasanovic, could you tell the Judges what the strategic objectives of the BH army were concerning the area of the enclave. (15) • A.: We did not have any strategic objectives, properly speaking. We had a directive issued every year which contained the description of what was to be achieved in that year and what kind of preconditions have to be met for those specific objectives to be implemented, those objectives which we usually defined in that instruction, directive. (20) • Q.: I will now read you something about what General Sead Delic said. He was the commander of the corps at the time of the fall of the enclave. • A.: Yes.
• Q.: General Delic gave a statement to the Dani magazine on the 17th of
March:
(25)"As a man from Podrinje, General Hadzihasanovic was in charge of
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have not been provided with a copy of the text. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, you know why you (5)have to slow down. Would you please be more careful. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. "As a man from the Podrinje area, General Hadzihasanovic was, on behalf of the General Staff, in charge of helping this area, so the overall coordination of the delivery of weapons and equipment was (10)organised through him." • Q.: General Hadzihasanovic, is this correct? • A.: This is a statement made by General Delic. I did not have any specific obligation as a native from the Podrinje area - please let me finish - except for my personal duty that I felt I had. My duty was to (15)provide organised helicopter sorties and the supply of equipment, because the corps did not have their own helicopters. They could not organise helicopter sorties, and it was my duty, my task, to coordinate that type of work. As to why he mentioned me as a native from the Podrinje area, I don't know. You should ask him. (20) • Q.: General Hadzihasanovic, did you issue an order for the sabotage incursions into the area around Srebrenica in 1994 and 1995? • A.: You mean if I ordered such activities? • Q.: Yes. • A.: No, I don't remember that. (25)
• Q.: Could you please have a look at D42B, which you still have in
• A.: Yes. • Q.: General, in paragraph 3 of this order: "Organise sabotage activities in other parts by setting up (5)ambushes along supply and evacuation routes of enemy forces primarily in the direction of Han Pijesak. Note: Do not carry out activities --" THE INTERPRETER: We didn't see the end of the text. • A.: I'm sorry, but you have misunderstood this document. If you want me to provide you with my explanation, I will be happy to do it. This (10)document concerns a previous document which mentioned the Grasshopper operation. The name of the operation was changed into Ciko Kale. It concerns the dispatch of people from the direction of Tuzla, and also from Srebrenica to a specified locality, and also from Zepa to a locality which was specified in the document. The man who was in charge of leading the (15)group from Tuzla was called Cikaric, and that's why we have the name of the operation Ciko. And the man from Srebrenica was nicknamed Kale, hence the name of the operation, which indicates how it all went. • Q.: General Hadzihasanovic, after these two orders were issued, D42 and 43, which you have in front of you, did first helicopter sorties -- (20)were first helicopter sorties organised on the 31st of December, 1994?
• A.: The movement along the ground and helicopter sorties were the only
means of providing the area with the necessary equipment, because that's
what these two operations were all about, Grasshopper and Ciko Kale. When
we made our calculation as to how much equipment we needed, we decided, we
(25)found out, that it was not wise to send 10 to 30 or 40 people to carry out
(5) • Q.: General Hadzihasanovic, if it is correct that the Operation Grasshopper concerns what you have just told us, why, then, in D42, in paragraph 4, do you say the following: "We indicated how to treat UNPROFOR in letter, strictly confidential, 02-1/1597-1, but they must not be allowed to withdraw; and (10)in case you cannot prevent them from doing so, take from them the weapons that we surrendered to them for safekeeping." • A.: I'm sorry I haven't found the text. • Q.: D42, paragraph 4. • A.: The way I understand -- I mean I would understand this paragraph (15)if I had the document that's mentioned here. • Q.: General, is it possible for UNPROFOR to have any reason whatsoever to withdraw from that situation concerning Srebrenica and Zepa in case you were transporting medical supplies, computers, and other equipment? • A.: There is a specific mention of what helicopters were carrying in (20)relevant documents. Second, as to UNPROFOR, reasons whether to pull out or not, I don't know whether they had to do it or not. Our goal was to have UNPROFOR remain in Srebrenica and observe for themselves what was happening.
• Q.: I agree with you, General, but we are talking about the document
(25)issued before the first helicopter sortie, the 31st of December.
• Q.: General, I will show you another document, D39. I will read for (5)the record while you are looking at the document only the first part of the document. "To disarm UNPROFOR in the Vasionica camp, Srebrenica. The plan provides for seizing all materiel and technical equipment in UNPROFOR hands, infantry weapons, ammunition, communication equipment, clothing, footwear and other which can significantly benefit the BH army in the (10)course of defending and liberating the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina." General, this document was issued by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, 283rd Light Brigade? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Which was sent to the command of the 8th Operative Group. Did you ever see this document? • A.: No, I did not. • Q.: General, could you give us your comment on this document in light of what we have just discussed in relation to document D42, that is, the (20)treatment of UNPROFOR?
• A.: I haven't read everything, just the first paragraph which I can
comment, if we have enough time. But if you will allow me, I will read
the whole document and give you my overall comment.
I've read it.
(25)I don't know when, what, and how the people in Srebrenica were
• Q.: General, an operative equivalent to the logistics forces, the forces in the rear with respect to the forces in the front, in other words, you as an experienced staff officer, how do you assess the ratio of forces when you infiltrate your forces into the enemy's rear? What effect (20)would this have on the enemy's forces? Could you give us a rough idea, a ratio of forces? • A.: It depends how many men you engage, what you wish to aim at. You have to have a criteria, a standard. It all depends. You are asking me a general question. (25)
• Q.: How many divisions into the rear of the enemy, how many men can
• A.: That division was not infiltrated into the rear. • Q.: General, I'm asking you a hypothetical question. General, as a staff officer, how many divisions would it require infiltrated into the (5)rear of the enemy to engage enemy forces? Would the ratio be 1:1, 1:3, 1:5? • A.: You can't do it that way, that is, just off the bat. You have to have a specific situation where the division is supposed to go, what the terrain is like, what the area is like, where the other forces are that (10)can intervene, how much time they need, and so on and so forth. You have to know all this data of -- in a concrete situation. • Q.: General, so far, you have been giving us generalised observations, how many combat ammunition sets or combat sets necessary and so on. That was an all-embracing, comprehensive, general assertion. (15) • A.: I spoke of minimum quantities, the minimum quantity required. But if you want to analyse each specific situation, then you will have to do that and, according to that, to determine how much you need. To defend yourself for two or three days, you would have to have a minimum of one combat set. For a unit to go out at the level of a division, it must have (20)five combat sets just to start out on an assignment. And how it can be supplied with materiel later on is another problem. • Q.: General, that same staff school and the teachings of that school, does it say that the operative equivalent in the enemy rear is in the ratio of 1:3? (25)
• A.: What do you mean?
• A.: I'm afraid I don't understand your question. • Q.: General, do the same military principles apply on the basis of (5)which you have claimed that a division needs five combat sets in order to break through an encirclement? • A.: I didn't say five. • Q.: You said a minimum of five. • A.: For a division to be assigned this task, it must have that number (10)of combat sets. Now, as to the particular assignment, we would have to calculate what is necessary for an assignment, additional materiel for the assignment to be carried out. For example, if the division doesn't do anything in peace time, it would have to have that kind of -- those kinds of sets as a standard, basic set. (15) • Q.: General, operative standards of the forces in the enemy's rear, to get back to my question. How many enemy forces can your unit engage? • A.: If you are alluding to the 28th Division -- • Q.: No, I am not alluding to anything. I'm asking you a hypothetical and theoretical question. (20) • A.: I have given an answer to your hypothetical and theoretical question, and I have said that you have to have basic data where the unit is being sent to, what depth, what area, what its assignment is, what the encirclement is.
• Q.: But General, is there a minimum? You mentioned five combat sets
(25)without which an order of this kind cannot be given. So I am asking you
• A.: The existence of a unit and the -- its equipment is a standard. Now, if you want to infiltrate them into the enemy rear, this is a combat operation for which statistics, mathematical assessment will have to be (5)made. So there is no particular standard. You can't quote a standard. • Q.: General, breaking through an encirclement, is that a combat operation? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: General, would you agree with me that the equivalent of the forces (10)in the rear as to engage in the enemy forces is in the ratio of 1:3? • A.: I cannot agree with you there because, for me, that is a generalised specification. I would have to know the actual concrete situation. THE INTERPRETER: A little slower, please, counsel. (15) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: General, did you compile a plan and even draw a relief for the liberation of Podrinje as is claimed in the article of the 17th of March 2000, as General Sead Delic said in the article published on the 17th of March 2000? (20)
• A.: I don't know what Sead Delic said. There was a relief specifying
the front lines throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, not only in
Srebrenica. It was a visual image, and people who were authorised to do
the planning or the decision makers were able to see the situation as it
was in the field. And amongst others, on this relief, they had Srebrenica
(25)as well, but it was overall relief for Bosnia-Herzegovina. It had
• Q.: General, the 2nd Corps of the BH army, did it issue at the beginning of the summer, end of June, beginning of June, that is, an order to the 28th Division to organise sabotage incursions into Serbian (5)territory around the enclaves? • A.: I don't know. You said the 2nd Corps? • Q.: Yes, I did. • A.: I don't know. I have no proof. • Q.: General, did you, yourself, issue an order to the 28th Division (10)for incursion into Serb territory in the environs of the enclave and for carrying out sabotage action? • A.: I did not issue to the 28th Division, except that I should bring it up to combat readiness. I issued no other orders apart from that order to the 28th Division. (15) • Q.: General, did you, at any time, issue orders to the 28th Division bypassing the command of the Drina Corps? • A.: What Drina Corps? • Q.: Oh, I apologise, the 2nd Corps. Did you issue orders to the 28th Division avoiding or sidestepping the command of -- the chain of command (20)of the 2nd Corps?
• A.: With respect to helicopter flights and equipping the divisions, I
did send down orders of this kind, but the command of the 2nd Corps, from
the very beginning, knew of that undertaking and I explained why, because
the 2nd Corps did not have authority over the helicopters. I had to
(25)communicate directly and to send what was in the helicopters because the
• Q.: General, I'm going to read a part of a statement made by Sead (5)Delic in answer to a question that was asked him. The journalist asks, "The Chief of Staff, General Hadzihasanovic, issued an order for sabotage incursions into Serb-held territory in the environs of Srebrenica without reinforcing the defence lines on the basis of which data and information was that order issued? That is my question for you." No, I'm reading. (10)And General Delic answers, "As far as I know, it was an order which the 2nd Corps received, but it was not linked unless it reached them in the line towards Zepa and Srebrenica." • A.: No. No orders went out from the headquarters like that. You are reading from a newspaper article. If I had a document, I would be able to (15)comment. • Q.: General, I will continue the quotation. "In that aim, an order arrived which specified that, wherever possible, sabotage and other operations were to be undertaken in order to engage the enemy, in order to inflict casualties to the enemy, and to stop him from introducing units (20)into the area. I don't know whether an order of this kind went to Srebrenica and Zepa, but it was a period when we intensified our sabotage incursions and smaller attacks on individual features which means that the order did exist."
• A.: This is within the context of a conversation between a journalist
(25)and the gentleman in question. I would be able to give a comment if this
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, General Krstic has asked for a break, if possible, and I have 15 more minutes of (5)questioning. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. For the reasons you have specified, we are going to take a break. Perhaps we shall take a lunch break at this point. Let us take advantage of this opportunity and have a lunch break and then see how we stand, how much more we need for (10)today. I shall first ask the usher to accompany General Hadzihasanovic out of the courtroom before we adjourn for lunch. We are now going to adjourn for a 50-minute lunch break. --- Break taken at 12.05 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. You may continue, please. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. May I ask the usher to give the witness Exhibit D36 and to prepare for the witness also Defence Exhibit D67, please. (20)
• Q.: General, while you're reviewing that document, allow me to remind
you that yesterday you spoke about your efforts to reorganise the army of
Bosnia-Herzegovina, and particularly the units in the area of the
enclaves.
General, this document, issued by the command of the 8th Operative
(25)Group, does it in content correspond to the situation in which the BH army
• A.: As far as I am able to understand this document, Mr. Attorney, there are several questions here addressed by the command of Operative Group 8 regarding the reorganisation; for instance, how to register people (5)who are not from the area, who are from other municipalities and do not know their speciality from the former JNA, et cetera. • Q.: General, there's no need to go into details. Let me ask you whether this content corresponds, more or less, to what you were endeavouring to achieve through your bodies, with the aim of improving the (10)organisation of the 8th Operative Group, and does this document reflect the problems that the 8th Operative Group at the time was encountering? • A.: Our order existed regarding the reorganisation of the army, and one of those orders was probably addressed to the command of the 2nd Corps. What kind of explanations the corps gave to the Operative Group, I (15)don't know. Clearly, from this document, the Operative Group is asking for explanations of certain points, and there's nothing doubtful about that.
• Q.: But the time frame corresponds. General, let me ask you about the
last sentence of this document on page 2. In the English version, it is
(20)all on one page. The last sentence reads:
"Could you therefore, because of the combat activities planned to
link up the 8th Operative Group and the 2nd Corps, complete the
implementation of this order by the end of the planned activities and
inform us of this a little before."
(25)General, my question is: What are those planned combat activities
• A.: I don't know. There were probably some thoughts given to it, but I'm not aware of any plan. • Q.: Thank you, General. Let me read to you once again a part of a (5)statement made by General Sead Delic in his interview of the 17th of March, 2000, relating to plans for the liberation of Podrinje, that Sead Delic in his previous statement claims that you were the author of those plans. And then he goes on to say: "One plan was the deblocking of Sarajevo, the second of Podrinje. (10)Because of the political situation at the time, the preference was given to the deblocking of Sarajevo. Also, from the General Staff, plans of activities were requested which would be undertaken in the case of offensive activities against Podrinje. As for offensive operations linked to the deblocking of Sarajevo, it was our conclusion that the safe areas, (15)in accordance with international law, enjoy a special status. No combat operations, no attacks, even though, from the military point of view, they were the most sensitive places in our overall deployments, that is, the enclaves." General, would you agree with that statement made by General Sead (20)Delic?
• A.: I don't know why you keep asking me about what somebody else
said. His thoughts and his positions I can neither share or criticise or
comment on them. All I can say is that that was his personal affair, what
he said. As for the General Staff and plans related to Srebrenica and
(25)deblocking it, no such plan existed. There is no dilemma over that, but
• Q.: The execution of sabotage activities behind the lines of the Serb forces was one -- was it a part of the plans to liberate Srebrenica? • A.: In the General Staff, there were no such plans. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Could the witness be shown Exhibit (10)D67, please.
• Q.: General, while you are reviewing this document, for the record, I
will read a part of it, paragraph 1 and a part of paragraph 2 of this
document. "The soldiers of the 28th Division of the ground forces located
in the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa, although burdened with serious
(15)problems with food and the obligation to preserve in their zone of
responsibility the free territories that they hold, decided to make as
large a contribution as possible to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina's
struggle against the aggressor, and to that end, strengthened their
activity in the depth of the aggressor's temporarily occupied territory.
(20)While carrying out reconnaissance, sabotage groups of the 28th Division of
the ground forces encountered aggressor reconnaissance sabotage groups
several times and opened fire. In this reconnaissance period, the
following results were achieved..." And then those results are
enumerated.
(25)Let me also read the first sentence from the second paragraph,
(15) • A.: I see this report for the first time. If it was sent, then somebody should be held responsible for its accuracy. I see this report for the first time.
• Q.: The 28th Division, General, according to this report, at least in
two places, makes mention in paragraphs 2 and 3 and then also in paragraph
(20)4, mentions the reason for these operations, and that is to prevent
additional forces being sent to the Sarajevo front or, rather, engaging
the forces of Republika Srpska within the enclaves.
General, what is stated in this document, does that fit into the
plan for the deblocking of Sarajevo which the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
(25)had?
• Q.: General, what was the control implemented by high level commands of Bosnia-Herzegovina over their forces? • A.: The control was effected in the force of orders, suggestions, (5)instructions, but we couldn't have physical control over them, a team of the General Staff or the command of the 2nd Corps to go physically to Srebrenica and check the situation there. That was not possible. Everything went through papers, documents. And what was ordered undertaken, we did not have the chance to physically check. (10) • Q.: General, but you did regularly receive reports from the 28th Division, 2nd Corps? • A.: Here and there. • Q.: General, did you control the work of the 2nd Corps? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: General, the 28th Division is a rather large unit. Is it possible for their commanders to undertake certain actions arbitrarily? • A.: Whether they did or not, I don't know. They shouldn't have. • Q.: General, is it possible that this document reflects an order received by the 28th Division to strengthen activities, intensify (20)activities, in order to assist the BH army in deblocking Sarajevo?
• A.: Within the context of the deblocking of Sarajevo, we did send an
order to other fronts to intensify activities, and to other corps, which
is only normal to facilitate this part of our task. But I know exactly
that in that order regarding Srebrenica and Zepa, nothing specific was
(25)stated. Whether the command of the 2nd Corps sent anything like that, I
• Q.: And the command of the 2nd Corps, did they inform you that they had sent anything to Srebrenica and Zepa? • A.: No. (5) • Q.: General, do you know where the command of the 28th Division in Srebrenica was stationed? • A.: According to communications, near Igrisnik, south-west, as far as I know. And it probably changed its locations because of the conditions. The command of the 2nd Corps must know that exactly. (10) • Q.: And where was the command of the Protective Battalion? • A.: Which protective battalion?
• Q.: Excuse me. Let us move on to another topic.
General, I will read to you again a passage from a statement by
General Delic, so I'll read a part of the statement -- no, I won't be
(15)reading from General Delic, but part of a statement of Naser Oric, in an
interview on the 28th of August, 1996, regarding the humanitarian
situation in the enclave:
• A.: I really don't know why you are asking me questions about other people's statements. To give you an exact reply as to whether they were (10)exaggerated or not, one would have to check it out physically, which was not possible. I just know that from the command of the 2nd Corps, we received reports that the humanitarian situation in Srebrenica was disastrous. That's as much as I know. • Q.: General, as a Superior Command, did you know that humanitarian aid (15)in the Srebrenica enclave was being distributed exclusively under the authority of the military? • A.: I couldn't know that. • Q.: General, did anyone, ever, through intelligence or some other reports, inform you about this? You were the Chief of Staff, and I assume (20)that the entire intelligence reports reached you.
• A.: That is your assumption, but it is not true. Only the
intelligence reports that were necessary for taking stock of the military
situation on the ground, the movement of units by the aggressor, the
situation, where which unit was, what their intentions were. But I didn't
(25)engage in these other matters.
• A.: Not in detail, but I knew that in the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves the humanitarian situation was bad. As for the details, I was not (5)familiar with them. • Q.: So General, you did receive certain reports about the humanitarian situation in your staff headquarters. • A.: What do you mean, "humanitarian situation"? • Q.: I'm looking at the transcript. You did, after all, receive some (10)reports on the humanitarian situation, and not only on the military situation on the ground. • A.: If you consider information that the people in the enclave and the military are hungry, that people haven't got enough to eat, as humanitarian reports, then I did receive them. (15) • Q.: And that is all you received about the situation there? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Thank you, General. • A.: You're welcome. • Q.: General, in a report shown to you by the Prosecution, it is stated (20)that the humanitarian situation is such that the population has nothing to eat and that the army, in a day or two, would run out of supplies, if I am paraphrasing correctly. Does that mean that the army, in terms of food supplies, was better supplied than the civilian population? • A.: No. (25)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Thank you. Let us go on to another
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, excuse me for interrupting you. Before the break, you told us that you needed a quarter of an hour. You've already used twice as much. Do you need a third (5)quarter of an hour or are you going to finish soon, so that we have some idea? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I think I need another five to seven minutes, on the outside. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Please proceed. (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Could the witness be shown OTP Exhibit 614, please. • Q.: And General, when did the Main Staff of the BH army learn of the start-off of the column from Susnjari towards free territory, or, better still, according to your information, on the 12th, or rather, the 11th, at (15)midnight, or a few minutes after midnight, that is, on the 12th, early in the morning, did the Chief of Staff report that he was heading out towards Udrc Baljkovica, and that at 0220 hours the command of the 2nd Corps had forwarded urgently this information to the Main Staff of the BH army? I'm talking about the 12th of July, 1995. (20)
• A.: I know that the staff and the commander cautioned and were not in
favour of the 28th Division abandoning the safe area, and they did not
have an order or permission from the headquarters to go anywhere. On the
11th, in the evening, in the village of Susnjari, the division command,
and I think some people from the political authorities, made that
(25)decision.
• A.: When they started out, we lost contact with them, and we didn't communicate with them until the 15th, in the evening. (5) • Q.: Did the Main Staff of the BH army at 0220 hours receive an urgent telegram or cable or in some other way a report from the command of the 2nd Corps, informing them that they were moving along the Udrc-Baljkovica road? • A.: Probably. Because, as I say, the last contact that we had was (10)that night. • Q.: General, the determination of the axis Udrc-Baljkovica, was that the axis of withdrawal towards Tuzla? • A.: What do you mean "axis"? • Q.: The Udrc-Baljkovica route, is that, in fact, the route along which (15)the units withdrew? • A.: As far as I know, I can show you from my notebook the exact sequence of the villages towards Crni Vrh, crossing the asphalt road from Kalesija to Zvornik, that is that direction. • Q.: And that is where you met the units? (20) • A.: Yes, at the very exit in the early morning. I had already arrived because I wasn't at headquarters at the time. I was somewhere else. • Q.: General, did the Main Staff of the BH army and the 2nd Corps, did they already on the 12th at 0220 hours know the route upon which the column was withdrawing? (25)
• A.: On the 12th?
• A.: I think not. On the 12th, the first reports reached us, I can't remember the details now, were brought by the women and children who arrived in the area of Kladanj. So the first information as to where (5)they might go and what was happening in Srebrenica reached us like that. Officially, from the 28th Division, we received nothing. • Q.: On the 11th at midnight, the Chief of Staff of the 28th Division, did he report to the staff for the last time, and after that the communication was interrupted? (10) • A.: Yes. He was in contact with us on the 11th in the evening, and after that, we don't know. • Q.: The Main Staff, was it informed urgently from the command of the 28th Division at 0220 in the morning about it? • A.: Yes, probably, but I don't know exactly because I was not there at (15)the time; I was close to Sarajevo. • Q.: Thank you, General. Can we see the Exhibit 614. General, let me draw your attention to paragraph 3 of this document and I will have only one question in respect of that. General, as the Chief of Staff of the BH army, did you know that the VRS had (20)established a corridor, had opened a corridor for the passage of the members of the 28th Division through their lines and positions? • A.: No, they did not open a corridor.
• Q.: General, did you know at the time that Colonel Vinko -- Lieutenant
Colonel at the time, actually, Vinko Pandurevic, was negotiating with
(25)Semso Muminovic, one of the officers, concerning that issue?
• Q.: General, did that actually happen in the way it is described (10)here? • A.: All I know was that the Zvornik Brigade was in Srebrenica but that certain elements of the Zvornik Brigade were also there, and according to the people who were there, the Zvornik Brigade, in that area, did not have many troops and that the passage simply went through. The people went (15)through the lines. It was not a show of goodwill of their commanders because they simply didn't have enough troops for that area. • Q.: General, I now realise that you actually knew where the Zvornik Brigade was, but at that point in time, you didn't know where your units were; am I right? (20) • A.: I don't know what you mean when you say "your units." • Q.: I'm referring to the units of the 28th Division.
• A.: Yes. If we are talking about the units of the 28th Division, I
said that we were not in contact with them at the time, and we did not
have precise information as to their whereabouts. The forward command of
(25)the 2nd Corps heard them on the 15th of July in the evening through
• Q.: General, would it refresh your memory if I told you that the Zvornik Brigade returned as early as the 15th of July in its area of (5)responsibility? • A.: I don't know that. You're referring to the Zvornik Brigade of the VRS? • Q.: Yes. Yes. • A.: No, I don't know that. (10) • Q.: General, if you didn't know the whereabouts of the elements of the 28th Division but you knew about the direction they had taken, could you not assume, theoretically speaking, as to the point -- as to the location they would finally emerge and reach the lines held by the BH army and were any offensive activities undertaken with the purpose of joining, reuniting (15)with the units of the 28th Division? • A.: We learned about it only on the 16th of July, in the morning hours of the 16th of July, not on the 15th of July. If we had done anything prior to that point in time, we would have, perhaps, made a mistake. We would have attempted to do something on a different location and they (20)would have come through at another spot along the front line. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no further questions for the witness. Thank you very much, General. • A.: You're welcome.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.
(25)General Hadzihasanovic, we will have a few questions for you from
• QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: General Hadzihasanovic, good afternoon. Can you hear me? (5) • A.: Good afternoon. Yes, I can, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you can shed some light on a few of your assertions whether in your testimony or in the -- what you called I think here the information you gave, written on the 24th of January. First, concerning the column you mentioned which was formed on the (10)11th of July. Apparently, you said it was leaving to the free territory and it contained the 28th Division command and municipal authorities. How many civilians were there, and why did the civilians join it?
• A.: I apologise, just a second. I would like to find that piece of
information. It is true that the command of the division was there
(15)together with some commanding officers, members of the staff, in the
village of Susnjari where the command of the division was located. And in
the course of the 11th of July, in that area, members of the division
assembled together with, according to the information I have from what I
could learn from the statement of the members of the staff and others,
(20)around 6.000 to 7.000 civilians in the area of Susnjari. That is, the
military and the civilians were together.
The civilians in question were people who were men of military
age, able-bodied men, and they did not trust in the impartiality of anyone
in terms of surrender. Only women, children, and elderly went to the
(25)UNPROFOR base. There was justified suspicion that every civilian,
JUDGE RIAD: You said it was a justified fear. Why was it (5)justified? • A.: Yes, the fear was justified because in the course of previous years, in 1992 and 1993 in particular, because of the events that took place in that area and, in particular, in the municipalities of the Zvornik, Bratunac, and Vlasenica, and also after the fall of the Cerska, (10)Kamenica, and Konjevic Polje enclaves, people knew, in view of those events, what could happen to them and they were simply afraid that such things might happen again. As they were fleeing the area Cerska - Konjevic Polje - Bratunac, those people finally ended up in the Srebrenica enclave, so they had (15)justified fears as to what might happen to them again. JUDGE RIAD: So you said there were 7.000 civilians, so how much would be their percentage in the column? • A.: More than 50 per cent. JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said when they were -- you just mentioned (20)the people who managed to come out from the column were manhunted easily in the way from Srebrenica to Vlasenica. What did you mean by "manhunt?" Fighting, fighting with the soldiers, the Muslim -- Serb soldiers, or chased just indiscriminately?
• A.: The second part of the column, which was initially between 12 and
(25)15 kilometres long, when that second part of the column was shelled, the
JUDGE RIAD: And it was indiscriminate, indiscriminate, according to what was, in your opinion, established or told to you, old and young and resisting or non-resisting? • A.: Correct. (10) JUDGE RIAD: You spoke about the -- you said, exactly, that the 28th Division was useless in combat terms and not capable to engage in combat, and hence did not constitute any danger to the other party. And you also spoke with the Defence counsel of the helicopters which were sent, I think it was from December 31st to mid-May. In spite of these (15)helicopters, the 28th Division was completely out of combat and useless, or did these helicopters give it some, let us say, power to fight? • A.: Whatever was transported in helicopters was in such a small percentage for the division to be made useful. All the data that I have supplied you with in the documents that I have brought with myself is (20)contained in that number, and the percentages that are given in these documents indicate the strength of the division. It is all included in the figures that you have in this document. JUDGE RIAD: And in your opinion, it was out of -- the division was completely useless for combat, adequately? (25)
• A.: The division was not useful in combat terms. Its capability,
(5) JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned your report and so on. In fact, I detected that you were speaking about the quantity of weapons, rifles, and you also said that -- you gave the number, as you said, and you said they represented no threat to the Serbian forces. Did the Serbian forces know that? (10) • A.: They should have known that. JUDGE RIAD: I mean, would they be expecting an enemy of calibre, who could be of great resistance, or were there indications that there were no weapons? Was there some kind of checking? Did UNPROFOR check the demilitarisation? Was there any understanding about that? (15) • A.: UNPROFOR was to -- was supposed to supervise the weapons that had been handed over to them, and they were supposed to observe the movements of troops on the boundaries of the safe area, so I know -- I think that the UNPROFOR must have known about the quantities of weapons of various units deployed in the area. (20) JUDGE RIAD: And they would communicate that to the other party? • A.: I cannot say anything to that effect, but it is my assumption that it was possible for them to convey such conversation.
JUDGE RIAD: Did you receive any - not you, but I mean the 28th
Division - receive any protests from the UNPROFOR that did not respect the
(25)demilitarisation and that they had weapons?
JUDGE RIAD: And concerning the urban area of Srebrenica, it (5)received shelling? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: It did. And was the shelling also indiscriminate, or in a way they wanted to have a target, military targets? • A.: There were no military targets in the town itself. As far as I (10)know, at the time the agreement on demilitarisation was signed, one of the reasons -- one of the ways of avoiding the shelling of the town was to sign that there were no military targets in the town. A soldier could not -- was not allowed to walk around the town with a rifle; however, a soldier could go to the town and visit his family without his weapon, if (15)he had any family living in the town. JUDGE RIAD: In your information or submission of 24th of January, you mentioned that 172.000 non-Serbs in the zone were ethnically cleansed. Can you just have some more specification what you mean by "ethnically cleansed"? What did it cover? (20)
• A.: Before the establishment of the Srebrenica enclave in the area of
the Zvornik and Bratunac and Visegrad, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak
municipalities, as well as the municipality of Rogatica, Sokolac, and
Pale, which was, according to our estimates, the area of responsibility of
the Drina Corps, from those areas, ethnically -- there was no population
(25)there. The area was ethnically cleansed, either through detention or
JUDGE RIAD: And after that, did they find out how much remained in the area, or come back, or that's too -- or killed? • A.: What I'm trying to say is that those people are no longer there in (10)that area. Some were killed, some were detained in camps, some were evicted from the area. They are simply no longer there. Some of them eventually found themselves in the area of Tuzla, Kladanj, Sarajevo, Central Bosnia, some ended up in third countries, the final result being that they were no longer in that area. It was only after the signing of (15)the Dayton Accords and sometime later that those people started coming back to the area. At the time of the Srebrenica events, that number of people was no longer in the area that I described. JUDGE RIAD: And perhaps a last question concerning the report of Major Becirovic on the humanitarian situation, when he said, on the (20)6th -- I think it was the 6th of July, 7th of July: "More civilians have been registered as having died from hunger and asking for quantities of food." What was done about that? Were you able to send him food or was the food prevented from reaching?
• A.: The passage of food was interrupted, because the last convoy
(25)carrying the food did not reach its destination, the UNHCR convoy. I
JUDGE RIAD: And why? • A.: Because the VRS army didn't allow it to go through. In those days, they even prevented the relief of UN units who were stationed in (5)Srebrenica, and immediately prior to the fall of Srebrenica, as far as I know, soldiers from the UN observation posts were being captured. Access to Srebrenica was not allowed, simply speaking. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, General. Thank you. • A.: You're welcome, Your Honour. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, we're trying to finish with this witness. Would General Krstic like a break? Could you speak to him, please, or can we continue? Could you speak to the General, please. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] We can continue, Mr. President. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] All right. Thank you very much. Thank you, Judge Riad. Madam Judge Wald, please.
JUDGE WALD: General, you've given us a very detailed account of
(20)the deficiencies in equipment and manpower of the 28th Division on the eve
of the fall in Srebrenica. I wonder if you can give us, very briefly,
bottom line, as it were, a comparative analysis of what your impression
was of the strength of the Serb forces in the area. In other words, if
the 28th Division was only 50 per cent up to par on equipment or -- and I
(25)think you said 30 or 40 per cent in other categories, would you say that
• A.: I can go broader than that but I shall be very brief. They were not only twofold, they were more than that as far as ammunition is (5)concerned. As for rifles and other equipment, they had sufficient quantities. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. I believe you said that once the column got moving and had reported to the superior commands of the 2nd Corps, that they were on (10)their way to Tuzla, the superior commands lost communication with the column and had no further communication until later on with the forefront of the column which was getting ready to break through. You also said, though, that the first inkling that the superior commands in the army had as to what had happened at Srebrenica or Potocari came when the women and (15)children reached the free territory from the buses. I was wondering how would you find out from the women and children who were evacuated on the buses from Potocari what had happened to the column? I mean, because they didn't actually have any contact with the column. How much were you able to find out from the women and children, (20)and when did you find out about the fact that the column had been cut off and what, if anything, had happened to them vis-à-vis the manhunt that you talked about?
• A.: The first refugees that reached the region of Kladanj that were
transported there, between Kladanj and Vlasenica about midway, there is a
(25)tunnel. Prior to that tunnel, they got off, and they arrived on foot.
JUDGE WALD: Did those women and children or the people who got (10)off the buses, did they tell you or did they tell the people there about the separation of the men and their fears or ignorance of what had happened to the men in Potocari? Not the men in the column, but the men that had been separated in Potocari? Is that the first time that superiors in the army learned about (15)the fact that the men were not arriving on buses any time near the women; they had been deflected off someplace else? • A.: Yes.
JUDGE WALD: You gave us some figures or estimates of a range
between 8.300 and 9.700 people who were killed or -- this is my question,
(20)or missing, 2.600 of whom were from the 28th Division. I was wondering
whether or not those estimates of people killed are estimates of people
missing, we simply don't know what happened to them. Or if they are of
estimates of people killed, are they divided between people killed in
combat and people killed by the executions? In other words, are those
(25)figures broken down?
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. Now, when you heard later on, and I understand this was, as it were, after the fact, when you found out what had happened in terms of the (10)people who were captured in the second part of the column, who were captured, some of whom were detained, as we know, many of whom, a large portion of whom were subsequently killed, did you receive information at that point as to who it was that was taking custody of these people? I mean who it was that was capturing them and who it was that was taking (15)them off to the areas of detention, and even who it was that was subsequently executing them? Were your informants as to what had happened to them able to inform you of any of those facts and, if so, what were they? • A.: I can answer in general terms that it was the army of Republika (20)Srpska and members of the MUP of Republika Srpska. JUDGE WALD: Both, is that right? This has been talked about a great deal in the trial, that's why I asked you the question. But your information is that both members of the MUP and members of the VRS were engaged in the capture of these people. (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: I was saying that the first information was received both by (5)civilians and the army when those first women left Kladanj and arrived in Tuzla, because there were executions in the immediate vicinity of the UN Compound in Potocari. And the separation -- JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry. There weren't mass executions in the immediate area of the Potocari. There may have been random killings, but (10)the mass executions, as I understand from all the evidence we've received, were started around the 13th, but they were some distance away. So that was my basic question: How do the women and children know about the executions? • A.: Because as the vehicles passed through certain areas, they saw (15)them by the road, saw dead men. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Did they -- did these informants have information to relay about who was involved in carrying out the executions? • A.: Yes, they, too, claimed that it was done by the army. (20)
JUDGE WALD: Okay. I just have three more questions.
In the information which you were able, at the time, but maybe
primarily later to find out from the people, the army people who actually
made it across, the civilians who made it across, and some of the
survivors later on who made it across, were you or the superior officers
(25)able to gain any impression of who was, in effect, running the show as far
(5) • A.: We knew that the command of the Drina Corps was present in the area of Srebrenica, but we also knew that General Mladic was there too. JUDGE WALD: Right. Were you able to get any impression from your informants as to who was, again, kind of in charge of the operation, the manhunt, the killings part of the operation? (10) • A.: In view of the fact that the command staff of this command was there and General Mladic, I assume it was them, because we couldn't hear it or feel it. The distance between the column and those who were shooting was quite considerable. You couldn't see or hear it. But since they were there, they were probably informed about it. I have no hard (15)evidence about that, but they were their units.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is one directed to your
knowledge of the -- all of the operations that were going around in that
area, not then, but previously that you've referred to before.
I'm interested in your views as to what factors you think -- I
(20)realise you don't know, none of us know, but what factors you think would
have led the VRS, the MUP, whoever did it in this instance, to execute
these thousands of Muslim men following the fall of Srebrenica as opposed
to taking them, putting them in camps, putting them as prisoner exchanges,
the kinds of things that were more typical of the other operations that
(25)we've seen.
• A.: To this day, I cannot explain or answer that question myself to (5)myself. What occurred to those people in the army of Republika Srpska, in MUP, to simply go and kill those people who were innocent, believe me, I have not given myself an answer to that question yet as a human being. JUDGE WALD: Okay. And this is my very last one, it's a hypothetical, but let me ask you, based on your military experience: If, (10)and it is a hypothetical, if a commander whose area of responsibility encompasses a particular geographical area, if that commander should learn - this is a hypothetical - if that commander should learn that, in fact, his own superior, his own superior was using some of the forces under his command to commit war crimes in that area, if he learned that, what do you (15)think his responsibility militarily would be? • A.: First of all, he would have to demand an explanation for it. Secondly, if he disagreed with those procedures, he would have to give up his position. JUDGE WALD: Thank you very much, General. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you very much, Judge
Wald.
General Hadzihasanovic, I, too, have a few questions for you.
Perhaps they are small ones as I am the last. There is one thing that I
would particularly like to understand properly. As far as I have been
(25)able to understand, the 28th Division was created more or less the 15th of
• A.: Yes, because in the structure of the 2nd Corps, there was the 8th Operative Group which, due to the reorganisation, was restructured in personnel and equipment on the 15th of March 1995. And from then on, it (5)was called the 28th Division officially. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] My question is: Why was this division created for a particular area which was or should have been demilitarised? You gave us some reasons such as quite appeasing the population of Srebrenica, but are there any other reasons for creating at (10)such a late date especially for a demilitarised zone? • A.: We completed the first reorganisation for Sarajevo in 1992. In Tuzla, it wasn't done in 1992, it was done in 1993 and during 1993. It depended on the area. Because of the inability to communicate with Srebrenica, this dragged on until such a late date, but the main reason (15)was that there was no means by which we could send them the documents on the basis of which they would reorganise. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, General. Another aspect that I should like to mention: A witness in this courtroom said that 18 officers based in Srebrenica left for training in (20)Zenica. Are you aware of this fact? • A.: I am. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Could you tell us what was the justification for this departure, and specifically whether their departure had anything to do with the attack on Srebrenica? (25)
• A.: No, allow me to explain. We had a wartime officer school in
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] These 18 officers, did they go (15)back to Srebrenica or did they stay outside the enclave? • A.: They were returned to Srebrenica. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question, General: Was there any parallel between the operations in Tuzla and the column? That is, when the Bosnian authorities learned of the difficulties of the (20)column, did they organise a coordinated operation to help the people to leave? Was there any movement of that kind and in that direction?
• A.: The 2nd Corps had prepared units to assist the breakthrough. The
only problem was where they would emerge, what particular part of the
front line so that we wouldn't make a mistake. And on the 16th in the
(25)morning, it was known exactly where they might emerge, and that is where
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Why did people choose Tuzla and not Zepa, for instance? Do you have any indication of that? I mean the (5)column. • A.: Probably they estimated that even if they went to Zepa sometime in the future, they would suffer the same fate. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So one might say that their choice was linked to the reasons that led them to leave. (10) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question which we have already touched upon to a certain extent is: After the fall of Srebrenica, were there any contacts with the Serb forces, and specifically, with General Mladic? We know already that during the (15)movement of the column there were some negotiations, specifically with Vinko Pandurevic. I'm saying after all these things, were there any contacts, military contacts, between the Serbs and the Bosniaks? • A.: As far as I can recollect, no. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question: In your (20)opinion, or rather, as far as you know -- no. Let me rephrase that. Do you know when General Krstic took over command of the Drina Corps? Do you have any information on the part of the BH army?
• A.: I personally must say that I do know General Krstic. We graduated
from the Command Staff Academy in Belgrade. We are of the same
(25)generation. That he became commander, I heard for the first time in a
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you have any idea when that was, the date of the statement made by Karadzic? • A.: This could have been just before Srebrenica or during Srebrenica, during the events in Srebrenica. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Just before the events in (15)Srebrenica? • A.: I don't have a document or anything else on the basis of which I could say with precision when that was. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, but you are saying that this statement was made, in your view, by President Karadzic just before (20)or even in the course of the events of Srebrenica. • A.: Immediately afterwards, very close to the fall of Srebrenica. It must have been around about then. Maybe five or ten days after that. I really can't remember. But I do remember him saying this.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] To try to be slightly more
(25)precise, can you pinpoint in time? When you say "the fall of Srebrenica,"
• A.: According to our records, it is the 11th, the 11th, when the army of Republika Srpska entered the town of Srebrenica. It has been recorded as that date. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So how many days before or after the 11th of July are you talking about that you heard the statement by President Karadzic? • A.: I'm talking about his statement, but I don't know the exact date when he made that statement. I really can't remember it. I didn't take (10)note of it anywhere, so I wouldn't like to say something that is not accurate. But he did say that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. But in his words, if you know, did President Karadzic say that he was going to appoint him or that he had already been appointed; that he was going to appoint General (15)Krstic as Corps Commander or whether he was saying that he had already been appointed? • A.: As far as I can remember, this is what he said, and I'm paraphrasing. General Mladic is being repeatedly mentioned, and he said, "We do need people of authority, but we also have other good (20)commanders." That is literally what he said. "For instance, there's General Krstic. He planned, and I approved those plans for him, the plans for the Srebrenica operation." And he also added, "Of course, the General Staff also assisted, but General Krstic did it." That is what he said. There must be a recording somewhere so that this can be checked. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, but General Hadzihasanovic,
• A.: I said that I know General Krstic, and it was a surprise for me. All those events were a surprise for me. Secondly, I knew that he had been Chief of Staff, and then I registered the statement of Mr. Karadzic (5)saying that he was the commander. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I understand that you were interested, because you were following his career, you were friends, you knew him well. But did that impression stay with you that President Karadzic had named Krstic by means of television? Wouldn't it be (10)necessary to have a paper, a formal decision, a document? • A.: It was my impression that he was the commander because that is what Karadzic said. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Okay. Very well. Yes. Another small question for you: Following the documents regarding humanitarian (15)aid that Mr. Harmon showed you, you answered, I think on page 19, line 12 of the LiveNote, you said something like this, and I quote: "And this was confirmed in the document of General Mladic." Do you remember saying that regarding humanitarian aid? • A.: Yes, I do, because I thought the directive had been read which was (20)signed by General Mladic. Maybe I misunderstood. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What document are you referring to? • A.: I'm referring to the directive of General Mladic.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Okay. You also said, and I'm
(25)referring to page 27 of the LiveNote, line 20, regarding these reports,
• A.: With respect to documents, the organ sending information has a certain number of people who are responsible for those things, and their information is relevant. If that piece of information is being used by (10)somebody writing about the morale of the fighters, they can use that information in various ways - descriptively, this way, or another - so then the information has a different purpose, or for the purpose of information, for instance. But what is sent by operations officers, those are relevant and we consider them to be reliable. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But it's a question that has already been asked: Would it be possible that people suffering from hunger could exaggerate the situation to receive humanitarian aid or maybe provide a description that was a faithful description of the situation? • A.: In the situation such as it was in Srebrenica, it's quite possible (20)that somebody may have added a little or detracted. Anything is possible. I couldn't say with certainty that it is a hundred per cent accurate when it comes to humanitarian aid and the humanitarian situation.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] In response to a question by
Judge Wald, you spoke about what you heard regarding the executions in
(25)Potocari. What did you hear being said by people who arrived as to what
• A.: I remember a detail, when people coming from Srebrenica were referring to an area where the hospital was, that somebody had entered that part of the hospital, mistreating some people there. I don't know (5)whether they killed them. I can't remember exactly. It was a long time ago. But I remember a small wood being mentioned near the UNPROFOR camp where shooting was heard and where people were taken. I remember this being said by the people who were in the compound, the women and the elderly, because I visited, after the fall of Srebrenica, in that time (10)period, the people who were staying in tents near the Tuzla airport. I spoke to them. And then the stories that I heard, I still remember some of them. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you remember what was the physical and mental condition of those people who managed to get through? (15) • A.: Mr. President, it is difficult to describe, because they were really ranging from those who were irritable or crying to those who were dumbfounded; they had no words to express their feelings. There were different reactions. But as a whole, they were terrified, they were suffering, they were full of pain and sorrow, because each one of those (20)persons in the tents knew that they had lost someone close.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you, General. We have no
further questions for you, I think. You have answered our questions, and
therefore I thank you very much for coming. I do so on behalf of my
colleagues in the Chamber, and I think also on the part of the parties,
(25)who had a chance to put questions to you. So we thank you very much and
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Thank you, too. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There is a practical matter that needs to be addressed at this point, I think, a number of exhibits which need to be tendered and discussed. I have information that the parties have managed to get together and negotiate, if I may use the word, in order to reach an agreement concerning this issue. So we could perhaps (10)have a 15-minute break at this point so that once again we can organise ourselves, all of us, and then come back to the courtroom and to continue working as long as it is necessary. But I think that there is a limit. I don't think we can work for longer than half an hour at this point. But let me first hear the opinion of the parties, Mr. Harmon first and then (15)later Mr. Petrusic or Mr. Visnjic. Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: We are certainly happy for a break, Mr. President. We have had extensive negotiations and discussions on these items. I think we have resolved most of our issues. I would like to, at this time, (20)since the witness has just left, move for the introduction of the exhibits that were introduced by the Prosecutor's office through him and address the remaining exhibits when we come back. The exhibits that I had shown to General Hadzihasanovic were Prosecutor's Exhibits 898 through 904, and I would move for their admission into evidence at this point. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Visnjic, you also have
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, we do not object to any of the exhibits tendered by Mr. Harmon. We should like to tender D179 (5)as Defence exhibit. I also have to express certain reservation regarding the documents that have been offered through the witness that we have just heard, in particular, as regards C2 in respect of which the Defence has managed to establish, despite the brevity of time, that at least two pieces of information contained therein are incorrect and, since the (10)witness did not have the source of the document, we would like to object to the admission of this exhibit since the information sought is precise in nature, but the witness failed to provide adequate explanation for that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, your response (15)concerning D179 and also if you wish to say something concerning C2.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we have no objection to D179 being
admitted into evidence and we have no comment on C2.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] The Chamber therefore admits
(20)into evidence Prosecution exhibits and Defence exhibits that have just
been tendered. As for Exhibit C2, the Chamber believes that the witness
has authentified
[as interpreted] the document and that he has provided
adequate explanation to that effect because of the general character of
the information sought. So the Chamber admits that document as well whose
(25)probative value will be evaluated during the deliberations of the Judges.
--- Break taken at 2.40 p.m. --- On resuming at 3.07 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So let us resume but with a somewhat different agenda in mind. (10)We have this parcel here that needs to be addressed. We have 30 minutes at our disposal, and we have to see what we can do in those 30 minutes. I think that the most efficient way to proceed would be to hear the parties, who will give us a general idea of what their main concerns are. We will therefore receive information from them first, and then we (15)will come back to discuss the issue or we will decide to make a ruling in writing, depending on what the parties are going to tell us. If you tell us that you have reached an agreement, we will have a sound basis for our decision. If not, we will make a different ruling. So this is just a general idea on how things are as regards the documents that are still (20)pending. Let me first give the floor to Mr. Harmon, and then I will hear the Defence. Is there anything that you can tell us after this break, anything new?
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, Your Honours, we have prepared lists
(25)of documents that are outstanding, and we have reached agreements on some
(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What about the Defence? Mr. Visnjic or Mr. Petrusic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, we don't have anything to add to what Mr. Harmon has just said. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Can we therefore hear Mr. Harmon (10)about the results of your talks and a possible agreement? Okay. Mr. Harmon, let us hear you once again. MR. HARMON: Mr. President, Your Honours, there should be lists in front of you. Unfortunately, the list I'm working off of is slightly different from the ones that you have in front of you, but I will identify (15)the exhibits for which there is no objection, and those would be Prosecutor's Exhibits 65 -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, I'm sorry to interrupt you. You don't think it is possible to use this list that has been submitted to the Chamber? If not, we will just take notes. (20) MR. HARMON: You can use this list, Mr. President. I just have a list that's not in sync, in terms of numerical sequence, with the list that's before you. But I can give you the exhibit number and then give you time to turn to the list, that item, and then you can --
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. I just wanted to
(25)know whether we're talking about the same things, otherwise we would be
MR. HARMON: Prosecutor's Exhibit 65, there is no objection, Prosecutor's Exhibit 221, Prosecutor's Exhibit 399. The Prosecution (5)withdraws Exhibit 790. Prosecutor's -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry. I don't see 790 on the list. MR. HARMON: I'm sorry. I have been informed that has been removed from the list, so -- (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you. MR. HARMON: Prosecutor's Exhibit 136, Prosecutor's Exhibit 228. 228, Your Honours, is being offered under seal, as is 228A bis, 228B bis and 228C bis. Prosecutor's Exhibit 359/A bis also is being offered under seal. Prosecutor's Exhibit 399/A bis and B bis, Prosecutor's Exhibit 69 (15)bis, Prosecutor's Exhibit 823/A bis, Prosecutor's Exhibit 830/A bis, Prosecutor's Exhibit 222/A, and 223/A, 228C bis, and that exhibit is being offered under seal. Prosecutor -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Sorry once again to interrupt you. I cannot see 222C bis [In English] 228C bis. [Int.] You (20)have already mentioned this one, and in your list I cannot see "under seal" remark next to that exhibit. [In English] It's a revised French translation of full interview? MR. HARMON: Yes. That should be under seal.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay. But we have not here. Good. Go on,
(25)please.
JUDGE WALD: We only have 792A and B on my list. You mentioned (10)792. Is that the same as 792A and B? MR. HARMON: Yes. JUDGE WALD: Okay. MR. HARMON: And that concludes the exhibits for which there will be no objection by the Defence. (15) MR. HARMON: The remaining exhibits are contested. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, but the Exhibit 882 is not included in the list. MR. HARMON: As I said, Your Honour, it's already been admitted. Your Honour posed a condition on that that we show to the Defence the copy (20)of the notebook. We have done that to satisfy that condition. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you. Before I give the floor to Mr. Visnjic, I think that this list needs to be admitted as an exhibit so that we can work on the basis of that, Mr. Harmon. What do you think? Because -- but maybe not. Maybe it's not necessary. (25)
MR. HARMON: This document was prepared as an aid, not as an
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Okay. No. Really, it's not necessary. (5)Mr. Visnjic, can you confirm that all the exhibits that Mr. Harmon has just mentioned have not been objected to by the Defence? Can you confirm that? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] I can, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Have you finished, (10)Mr. Visnjic? Mr. Harmon, I see you are on your feet. MR. HARMON: One exhibit should be also included as an exhibit that is for admission. It's Exhibit 28, which is a booklet with approximately 13 or 15 tabs with photographs of individuals, and we are (15)moving for the admission of that particular document but we are moving to withdraw one of the tabbed sections in there. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Maybe I could be of assistance, Mr. President. It is number 15, 28/15. MR. HARMON: That's correct, it is the photograph in that exhibit (20)28 that purports to be Colonel Beara. It is the photograph that's marked on the back 28/15, and so we are moving to withdraw that part of Exhibit 28 and move the remaining part of the exhibit into evidence. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic.
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, I shall try to be
(25)brief, and if it is not clear enough for the record, will try again,
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, let us go briefly into
private session.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are in open session, Mr. Visnjic. (15) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I should also like to notify the Trial Chamber that the Defence has supplied sufficient number of copies of the expert report of Mr. Stankovic and Mr. Simic, and they are Exhibits D171 and D172 in both versions, that is in both the Serbian and the English version. (20)That would be all, Mr. President, with respect to the agreement reached with the Prosecution. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So Mr. Visnjic, does that mean that you are asking these two reports to be admitted into evidence?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, we have already made
(25)such a request. The only thing that we still had to do was provide
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, with respect to these two reports, have you any remarks to make? MR. HARMON: In respect of D171 and D172, the two reports, we have (5)no objection, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: May we have a moment to confer, just between us. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, there is another Defence exhibit outstanding that we left out, and that is 53 and 46, which were withdrawn earlier on. I just wish to confirm this for the record. D53 and D46 are being withdrawn by the Defence counsel. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Is that all, Mr. Visnjic? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] That is all, Mr. President, regarding the agreements that we have reached with the Prosecution. Of course there is the disputed part that remains.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Let's see now, perhaps we can
(20)already rule on the following: The Exhibit 790 of the Prosecution and
Exhibits 53 and 46 of the Defence have been withdrawn by the parties
concerned.
I have already made a checklist with the registrar, and we have
agreed to admit all the documents which were mentioned and noted as not
(25)being in dispute and with no objections being made by either party.
(5) MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I just clarify one thing. Exhibit 28, it should be 28/15 and not tab 15, because they're multiple photographs in a tab, and if you eliminate tab 15, you'll be withdrawing the wrong photograph. It's a confusing exhibit, but on the back of each photograph there is a number, and it is the photograph 1, the section with (10)Colonel Beara, and the photograph that purports to be Colonel Beara has on its back 28/15, and it is that particular exhibit we're moving to withdraw. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon, for this clarification, so we will note the exhibits along the (15)lines you have just explained. I think that now we need to ask the parties whether all the other exhibits, is the Chamber going to take them and rule on their admission or do you have any other suggestions to make to the Chamber? In other words, you have done what you could with respect to all the exhibits, and it is up to the Chamber to do the rest, or do you (20)have any other possibilities in mind? MR. HARMON: Obviously, I have some additional comments on certain of these exhibits, and then it's up to the Chamber to make decisions on these. I haven't addressed any of those comments as to those particular exhibits at this point because I was waiting until the opportunity arose. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I think perhaps that the time
(5)
MR. HARMON: I'm at your disposal, Mr. President. We're at the
end of the case. We have some very important exhibits here that I think
have to be discussed with the Chamber. The reasons set forth why we
believe they are admissible and why my colleagues think they are
objectionable should be put on the record in some form, and it's incumbent
(10)on us to offer these into evidence so the Court can make a ruling. I say
that because there are yet some additional issues that are still before
this Court that need to be addressed before we conclude these
proceedings.
For example, in respect of Prosecution Exhibit 833, the Defence
(15)has filed a motion. We haven't had an opportunity to be heard on our
views on our particular motion. We simply haven't had time to prepare a
written answer. I'm prepared to address those remarks orally or I'm
prepared to submit our remarks in writing, depending on what the Chamber
wishes to do.
(20)In addition, Mr. President, there was a protected witness, Witness
II. There are certain factors about the timing of that witness which may
be in dispute at some point, and I think it's important and I would like
the opportunity to insert into the record the factors that relate to the
timing of the Prosecution's discovery of that evidence that I think have a
(25)bearing on other objections that have been made in this case and have a
JUDGE WALD: Mr. Harmon, roughly how many, just roughly, how many exhibits are disputed? MR. HARMON: I'd say, Judge Wald -- JUDGE WALD: Just rough. (20) MR. HARMON: -- every exhibit that we offered in rebuttal is disputed. JUDGE WALD: Yes. I -- that's a kind of one big issue. MR. HARMON: So there are all of those exhibits. I don't have the number, but I would say probably 25 exhibits are disputed. That's -- (25)
JUDGE WALD: Okay.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Could you give me a few minutes
now. I wish to confer with my colleagues.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] The Chamber has a proposition to
make to the parties. I think there are several interests involved here.
One is to review the whole documentation, and especially and in
particular, the exhibits which are in dispute. As Mr. Harmon has said, we
(10)need to hear the arguments of the parties: Why, what are the points of
view of each party.
Therefore, I think that in order to organise each exhibit and the
arguments of the parties, one could give the parties the opportunity to do
so in writing. That is a way for each of the parties to review the
(15)evidence and organise itself. After that, we would come to the courtroom
for a summary presentation of the reasons that were already conveyed to
the Chamber. In that way, we will all have the material and all the
information we need. Perhaps that would be a better organised manner and
a fairer one to address the issue, and also an efficient one in terms of
(20)the ruling. Do you agree?
Also, we have to see when the parties are available to come to the
courtroom, knowing that next week we are sitting only for two working days
because there is the plenary on Thursday, and after that -- Judge Wald is
telling me that we have a holiday. I don't think that's the right word,
(25)but never mind.
MR. HARMON: We have a trial brief to prepare and we need to know, obviously, when evidence is in and when evidence is out to prepare this (5)adequately. So certainly our interests are to get resolution as soon as possible on these issues. If it's a question of preparing something in writing, we have no objection to that. I think we could get through this in 20 minutes. I think the objections of the Defence are uniform. They could -- but either way, we are prepared to proceed as long as we can get (10)a quick resolution of the issues so we could prepare our trial brief which, as you know, is a project that is ongoing. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] How about Wednesday for you, Mr. Harmon? Wednesday afternoon at the end of the afternoon. MR. HARMON: Wednesday is fine. I was planning to go fishing, but (15)Wednesday is fine, Mr. President. I will be here and we can do that on Wednesday. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But you are going to fish for exhibits. MR. HARMON: We will do that, Mr. President. Wednesday afternoon (20)is fine. Does Your Honour have a suggestion as to when you'd like something in writing or is that the date for the written submission?
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Excuse me, as you know, there is
a slight delay with the interpretation so I apologise. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So fine. I think that we have
MR. HARMON: The fish don't -- thank you. They never get caught (10)anyway, Mr. President. Mr. President, I'm happy to abide by that schedule. That, again, leaves the issue of the argument on the motion for a continuance, that will also be the same date, I take it. And if I could either now or on that date put in the record the facts I'd like to about Witness II. If I (15)could reserve that until Wednesday as well, I would appreciate it. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Yes. All the questions that are outstanding, we need to finish with them on Wednesday, not only the exhibit but all the other matters. What about the Defence? Are you agreeable with this procedure? (20)You're not going fishing, Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President, but my colleague Mr. Petrusic will not be here next week, so if the Trial Chamber does not mind, we would like to ask your leave for me alone to be present for that hearing. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. As you know, we appreciate
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Okay, then. I think that we have come to a way out of this situation. So we will meet again on Wednesday at 4.00 to address the remaining issues. So have a good weekend and success in your work.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
(10)at 3.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
the 11th day of April, 2001, at
4.00 p.m.
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