Interview with Professor George Cole on Wednesday, October 11th

Cole:Well, let’s start with salsa first. Salsa it’s different than what most people think....it didn’t start is Latin America, it didn’t start in the Carribean, or anything like that. It started in New York, in the 70s and it was a reaction from the Hispanic community there to the craziness of disco. What happened, a lot of musicians that played Latin music from the 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. like Celia Cruz, Tito Puente, and all of those guys, were actually in New York at the time. So the way things evolved almost all rhythms like son and cumbia, and all those other kinds of music got this weird mix to be more dance-able, if you will. That’s where salsa started.

Of course, since the close relationship between New York and the Carribean, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, the exchange made it popular in all those countries. Then of course it spread in the 80s and 90s, and in the States. Now, I’m Puerto Rican, my dad’s Puerto Rican, my mom’s Cuban, so dancing salsa and merengue is second nature. You don’t have a choice. If you want to socialize, when you’re a kid and when you’re a teenager, you have to learn how to dance.

Abi: Now what about for instance, I was reading a biography of Celia Cruz, and she was talking about all of the clubs which were (George interjects: the palladios) open to minors, where they could go to hear the music and do the dancing for socializing.

Cole: Well, the thing is that we don’t have the alcohol restrictions that are here in the States, so for us, going out and going dancing doesn’t necessarily mean going out and getting smashed. We’re just so used to drinking....while here in the States, for instance, going out and getting smashed.....uh, especially when you turn 21, uh, so yes, there’s a difference there. Now, and again, you know, this is from a different cultural point of view. For us, it’s normal to socializing, it’s not a big deal. You dance, you know how to dance. You usually learn it from parents or relatives, while here, it’s pretty much the “in thing” now, so it’s different.

It’s hard to get guys to dance....Of course, it’s worse here in the States. It’s what they call the “white boy” syndrome (laughter). They don’t want to dance. “Oh, no, I can’t do it.” “ Only women can do that”, while for us it’s normal. If you want a date and have a social life, you better know how to dance. If you don’t, it’s going to be a lonely night. Because girls love to dance.

So uh, that’s why then of course it’s strange here the way they dance....they think it’s so sensual, uh, that is, and they worry about oh, I’m supposed to be stepping this or that....while for us, it’s just like doing it.

Danielle: That’s like when I was starting to learn, and the guy asked me “are you just gonna watch or are you gonna get out there and dance?” It’s easier just to jump in and try it...

Abi: Well, and I grew up here, and a bunch of my really, really good friends were Latino, so, you just go out there and do it. You can take a class so you understand what the steps are, but that doesn’t give you a feel for how to do it...

Cole: Well, actually you can tell from which country that person is.. They dance totally different; like from the Carribean, it’s more freestyle....

Danielle: Like someone from Cuba verses someone from Mexico....

Cole: Well, because in Mexico, for instance, when they dance with more closely resembling the cumbia, which is what they like, and the norteaneo music.... So it adds a little flavor to that, it looks and feels that way. While, for us [Puerto Rico] it’s different...

Abi: Well, when you were dancing, that it is more freestyle, you’re not as close to your partner. You have the freedom to move around and do whatever you want. I thought it was really interesting to watch, because no matter what you stick to your partner and it doesn’t matter. Compared to a lot of dances around here where one person has to follow the other; it’s kind of like improvisation....

Cole: Well, the thing is you girls have it easy because if you have a good partner, who leads you, he’s gonna make you look good. Well, for us guys, if we don’t know what we’re doing, we make a fool out of ourselves. Uh, so yeah, and then of course, you can do it with two really good partners at the same time, because fo the freestyle of dancing. But that’s that... I know how to do it the other way around, because depending on the partner you have, they dance differently than you..

But yeah, the close one, the merengue. There’s two ways of doing merengue- your average type way of merengue dancing, and you have what they call merengue aficto, which is very close, I mean, it’s almost like “dirty dancing” type and it’s real fast. You’re going front, back, turning around. There’s very different ways of doing that.

The other thing is that here, they dance everything the same way too. Okay, I’m going to salsa, two step...and that’s not necessarily the same thing especially when you’re dancing to cha-cha or mambo or some other stuff.

Danielle: So how did you find out about the salsa nights here, especially when you first got here?

Cole: Well, I’m from Arizona and there they have a huge Latino/Hispanic community over there. And it’s a big cultural city. They have salsa night basically almost every night, so you can be out every night of the week. Here’s it’s more limited.. Now the advantage that I have is that I work in the foreign language department, so I’m interacting with other Hispanics and international cultures, and they keep passing the words around. “Oh, yeah, they have a salsa night at this place, it costs this,” you always find out that way. There’s a lot of things going on in this place [foreign language building]. So usually that’s how it goes.

Abi: I know we sort of found out about Melt by accident, another person in group was talking to someone who said there was a salsa night at Melt and I have a friend who’s a chef there and he was like “oh, yeah, blah blah”....

Cole: I know, it’s weird, when I came here last year. I’ve been living here for like, a year, and when I moved here, originally salsa night was at Su Casa, it used to be this Mexican restaurant, Thursday nights. It had some good music, but it was so small. With a couple of people, it was already packed, so it stopped being there and they changed it and that’s basically the only night we had salsa here in Lubbock, for while. Then they decided to do it at Melt, and I think they’re going to start doing it in some other place, on Friday. Then you could go to three salsa nights.... Thursday at Jakes, and the one at Melt, and the other one at I don’t know where. They were telling me the details the other day, but I was spacing out. And then I think they are gonna charge cover for that one. The only one that doesn’t charge cover is Melt.

Abi: Actually, at Jakes if you go before 10, they don’t charge cover...for us anyways... (*At Jake's there is no cover charge for women if they arrive before 10pm)

Cole: That’s because they need women there. Because guys will always go, especially the creepy types.

Abi: Well, we’ve been to both Melt and Jakes now and we were just kind looking at the differences.. I went to school in Florida for a while and it reminds me of how they have actual Latin clubs. And the high end, they are nice places with dress codes. It’s very “why are you here” and they give you the one-over when you are coming in.

Cole: Yeah, I’ve been to those in Miami.

Abi: It was completely different from clubs here.

Cole: Well, and you don’t have “clubs” here, per se. For instance, you can see, at Melt, because fo the venue it has a dress code, you cannot be looking like you got out of the gym there, uh, so you have a reputation that it’s expensive, but I don’t think it’s that expensive there. But you know they enforce the dress code. People have a tendency to act better and have a different approach, you know, as compared going to Jakes. Melt is more like you go with your friends, basically a group, and chill. Jakes, just because of the venue, the back room they have over there, it’s

Cole: Well, there’s more space, if you think of that and what they have. But yeah, I have some American friends that keep telling me the one thing that they don’t like about Jakes is the it’s feels very “ghetto”. It’s weird, there’s a lot of creepy guys around, and that they don’t feel as comfortable there. So they wouldn’t feel comfortable going by themselves. Melt, there they prefer to be with a big group, or a group with guys so they don’t have to deal with some of the things that go on....

But yeah, it’s a different place, the music if you notice is different.

Abi: They did a lot more reggaeton,

Cole: Yeah

Danielle: And they even had a few “regular” songs, just that you could hear at any club. It was like, “what are they doing there?”

Abi: “This is not salsa...”

Cole: Yeah, they interplay all this weird hip hop and crazy stuff, it’s like, okay, what’s this? If I wanted to hear this music, I would go to, I don’t know, like, Daiquiri . It’s the same thing they play there every week. And then the people who go are different, and the way they dress is different.

Abi: Well, maybe this was just the particular day. We went last Thursday, there was a large crowd there but most of the people didn’t come in till fairly late and they were mostly dressed very nicely, probably just the particular night we went but I noticed that there were a lot more people who showed up and sat around. But of course it’s a bigger place so. There’s more drinking, but I didn’t really get the impression that for the people that stayed by the bar for the most part, that’s it’s really normal and a way of socializing. .... I don’t think there was anybody who was way out there, there were some Cuban guys who were like... (Danielle agrees) but it wasn’t really like a bad experience

Cole: Usually they behave, although there’s always your bad apple here and there; that’s normal in any place you go. But yeah, it varies, the kind of people that go there and the kind of music they play. It’s a reflection also of the people that go to the bar. If you notice, that at Melt they play salsa and merengue, of course they play reggaeton from time to time, but ...

Danielle: Well, it seems like on those songs people just flee the dance floor.

Cole: Well, yes, because it’s not easy to dance to reggaeton, dress all nice and then if you’re wearing a skirt or something and you worry about flashing anybody. I think the atmostphere at Melt, for instance, is more open.

Danielle: Well, I was surprised when we came the first week and we were meeting people and we met you, and then the next week we came back and everyone acted like we belonged there and people talked to us like we were a part of it.

Cole: Yes, because it’s a smaller crowd and a lot of people that go there go there all the time. Most of them are regulars anyway, so everybody knows everybody so when people come they try to meet them..... Well, you know that the first night I met you girls, I remember partying with those, uh, Alvaro, and they kept giving us free drinks, so then we ended up dancing with them. Yeah, it was crazy, but you see how you socialize and approach to socialize, and of course the dancing, that helps a lot.

Abi: I mean, I think I thought more at Jakes, just because we ended up dancing more, and there were more people there, but being out on the dance floor is an invitation to other people to approach you, because you’re a part of what’s going on and you’re not just sitting there and

Cole: The thing is, they look at you, and say well, they want to dance, so at least I have a shot at talking to them. Of course, you only have two minutes to, while you’re trying to dance.....But if you behave and usually after dancing you go back to the bar and start the conversation. And you have two minutes “to prove to me that I should be talking to you”

Abi: Well, I didn’t really know there was any salsa culture or any kind of salsa community at all, and I’ve lived here my whole life. I went to Lubbock High which had a large Hispanic population and a Hispanic was one of my best friends, and so but even then knowing all those people, I was unaware...

Danielle: And I grew up in San Antonio and lived most of my life there, and I went to a school that was mostly Hispanic and I was a minority but it was never anything mentioned.

Cole: I think maybe because you know, late 90s, that’s when the big boom started and that’s when everyone wanted to do it and be cool. They have what they call the “Latino boom” and you have Ricky Martin and then came Marc Anthony and J Lo. and this and that and Antonio Banderas, and so everything Latino was in. So as part of the salsa, everyone wanted to learn salsa; so they started teaching it in college, there’s classes everywhere and then everybody wants to dance. Now, of course, the girls always want to dance, girls like to dance, it’s a fact. So, since they won’t have their Anglo friends who don’t want to do it because they don’t want to touch it, they start interacting with the Latino community, where dancing is normal. So, it’s easier for girls cultural exchange.

Danielle: Well, and actually Aaron was the only white guy I danced with. You’re like “well, aren’t you going to dance”, and they just look at you and say “noooo”

Cole: Well, something like that happens for instance, in Spain. I’ve been going to Spain since 1999, and they also suffer from that malady if you will; they don’t like to dance, they’re just standing there. If you go there to dance, it’s a bit worse over there in Spain actually, they have a whole line of girls waiting...You get out of dancing with one when you get off the dance floor, and before you can get to the bar to get a drink, somebody’s grabbing you and taking you again, I swear to God...just like that.

Danielle: And it seems like it should be for fun and participation, who cares if you’re the greatest dancer or not, but most guys are...

Cole: ....self conscious, “I don’t want to do it because I’m going to look gay..” That’ s the other mentally, “oh, I don’t do that gay stuff.” Seriously....you want to be macho.... Who invented macho?? We’re cool with it, so, it’s going to be a lonely night for you...

If you go to a club, you should expect that people want to dance; people there, you better try at least, to move or something, anything....Granted, if you’ve got two left feet, I can understand why you wouldn’t want to dance, but you don’t want to embarrass yourself, step on toes, hit somebody when you’re doing a turn or something like that....

Danielle: I actually hit Abi in the head; Antonio and I were doing a turn and Felix and Abi were right there and I went “wham”.... because we were so close together.... (Group laughter, jokes for a while)

Cole: This happened to me, I think four times, somebody else hit my head, or step on my toes, ....I had a black eye.....

So you can see differences from place to place in the way they dress, what music is played,....Now granted, girls like to dress nicer, especially Latino girls, it’s a part of the culture. The makeup and the heels, the earrings,

(Random tangent on doing hair before going to the gym)

They have Latin dancing aerobics, all sorts of things now.... I don’t know here, but I know they do in Miami. It’s the same in New York, LA, Phoenix, even Seattle... I used to live in Washington State, I lived there for two years, and yeah,

Abi: So how long have you been in the States?

Cole: Uh, it’s been almost five, six, around eight years or something months

Abi: Did you come for school, or to teach?

Cole: Well both, when I finished my bachelor’s degree, well, my bachelor’s degree is in French actually, but they recruited me to go to Washington State for my masters in Spanish, in literature. Got it there, finished my masters, and they recruited me to go to Arizona State, that’s where I got my Ph. D.

Abi: So what do you teach here?

Cole: I teach Spanish, I mainly teach literature. American lit, some Carribean lit, some Afro-Cuban lit., culture and theater. I’m the theater professor from the department. We actually put a play in Spanish each year.

Danielle: So do a lot of people come to that?

Cole: Yeah, there is a lot of stuff to do and when you havea the option to do something different, usually the people who are studying Spanish or some of the people in the Latino community, they enjoy hearing something their own language.

Abi: I think there are a lot of things that take place on campus, which I would love to go to, but we never hear about them.

Cole: Well, if it is, for instance, um, usually they announce everything through Tech Announce. Uh, and usually somebody tells you “there’s this going on and there’s this going on” and it sort of spreads the word. Even I sometimes can’t figure out what’s going on, and I’m here...

Abi: I wish we were less isolated...

Cole: But I don’t know, but something I’ve noticed about Lubbock, is that it doesn’t have a cultural life per se, it’s not very culturally dense compared to other places I’ve been....

Abi: I don’t know, just because people don’t know about them or if people don’t have interest....I think it’s not so much that people aren’t interested, it’s that people don’t know about them. They don’t know where they’re taking place, and they don’t like feeling like an outsider.

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