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(1)Monday, 3 April 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.43 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, interpreters. Can they hear me? Yes, they can. Good morning to the technicians; good morning, counsel for (10)the Prosecution. As far as I can see, Mr. McCloskey is not here. Good morning to the counsel for the Defence. Good morning, General Krstic. We will be sitting in full composition today, together with Judge Wald, and we will continue with (15)hearing the Krstic case. Good morning, Colonel Kingori. I hope you have spent a nice weekend here in The Hague. THE WITNESS: Yes, it was a nice weekend. Thanks. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well,
then. Let me just remind you that you are still under
an oath and that you are going to continue answering
questions that will be put to you by Mr. Cayley -- no,
I'm sorry, Mr. Harmon.
(25)Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.
WITNESS: JOSEPH KINGORI [Resumed] (5) • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: When we concluded your testimony on Friday, you were discussing events, particularly focusing on events in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th of July. Let me ask you, Colonel Kingori, on the 12th of July, (10)you were wearing a pair of sunglasses, weren't you? • A.: Yes, Your Honour, I was. • Q.: Did something happen in respect of your sunglasses, and can you explain to the Judges what did occur? (15)
• A.: Your Honour, on that day, when I was still
patrolling just around where the refugees were, one of
the BSA soldiers intercepted me and asked me whether he
could have my sunglasses. Okay. The way he asked me
was not that polite --
MR. HARMON: I'm getting the French
translation, at least I have. I'm getting a perfect
French translation.
Could we hear from the English booth, if
(25)possible?
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Could you please repeat your answer, Colonel Kingori? (5) • A.: Your Honour, on that day, while I was still patrolling that area, that is, where the refugees were, one of the BSA soldiers confronted me and requested to have my sunglasses. Actually, it was not a request, he wanted to remove them. Luckily, one of the senior (10)officers, and that member was Colonel-- the legal officer, the one who introduced himself as the legal officer, intercepted and told that guy to leave me alone. So at least I had my sunglasses back. • Q.: Have I shown you some video footage and have (15)you been able to identify the soldier who you believe was responsible for attempting to take your sunglasses? • A.: Yes, you have done, and I can recognise him.
MR. HARMON: If I could have the lights
dimmed please, and if we could play Prosecutor's
(20)Exhibit 76, I would like you to identify the soldier
who you believe was responsible for trying to take your
sunglasses, please. • A.: This is the officer. (25)
MR. HARMON:
• A.: The one I'm pointing at, he's wearing a jacket. I can't remember which colour that is. MR. HARMON: Would you replay that, please? (5)Freeze it. • A.: This one here, he has a T-shirt, he has a pistol, some -- here he is. • Q.: The man in the centre of this particular frame. (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: All right. MR. HARMON: That's fine, thank you. • Q.: Colonel Kingori, did BSA soldiers who were in Potocari on the 12th and 13th take items from UNPROFOR (15)soldiers while you were there? • A.: Your Honour, this was an ongoing thing. They could take belongings from the DutchBat soldiers, who were members of UNPROFOR, and also from the civilians who were there. That was an ongoing thing. (20) • Q.: Now, let me change the topic and ask you if, on the 13th of July, you saw Major Nikolic. • A.: On the 13th of July, Your Honour, I saw him. • Q.: Where did you see him?
• A.: He was there almost throughout, but at least
(25)I remember seeing him inside the DutchBat compound and
• Q.: What do you remember him doing on the 13th of July in the DutchBat compound? • A.: In the DutchBat compound, he came there to (5)check those refugees who were still inside there, that is, the ones who were injured, the ones who were actually sick, to check whether there were any soldiers, and he had a list that he was comparing with, which I believe was that of the soldiers that he knew (10)belonged to the BiH, and he was cross-checking. Whichever male that he found, he could cross-check with their list to see whether he belonged to the BiH or not. • Q.: And how long did he remain in the UN (15)compound, as far as you can recall? • A.: As far as I can recall, he stood there for quite some time, quite some time, actually, maybe close to one hour, something like that. And he was not alone, he was together with some other senior BSA (20)officers. He was with Colonel Acamovic, he was with -- okay, Petar, that is, our interpreter, and Vukovic was also there that day. • Q.: Let me ask you, you mentioned the name that's new here to us, Acamovic. Who was Colonel Acamovic? (25)
• A.: Your Honour, Colonel Acamovic was introduced
• Q.: And was that -- when you had those comments (5)made by Colonel Acamovic, do you remember what day that was? Was that the 12th or the 13th or some other day? • A.: Your Honour, here I'm not very sure, but I think it was on the 13th. I'm not very sure. • Q.: All right. Now, let me ask you, in your (10)testimony on Friday, you discussed seeing General Krstic and other high-ranking officers of the Bosnian Serb army on the 12th of July, and you saw them in Potocari. I'm going to play you two clips of film, and I've had an opportunity to show you these clips of (15)film, have I not? These are interviews, the first interview with General Mladic and the second is an interview with General Krstic. Did you have an opportunity to see those films? • A.: Your Honour, I have. You have shown me. (20) • Q.: And did I show you those films for the first time on Friday night, after you concluded your testimony? • A.: Your Honour, he did.
MR. HARMON: All right. Now, if I could pass
(25)out to the Chamber and to counsel a transcript, which
(5) • Q.: Before we play this film, Colonel Kingori, do you appear in this film, in the interview of General Mladic? • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: And, in fact, you appear at the very (10)beginning of this film, do you not? • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: All right.
MR. HARMON: Then if we could lower the
lights, please, and if we could then play Prosecutor's
(15)Exhibit 79, we could hear the interview of General
Mladic MR. HARMON: • Q.: Colonel Kingori, you were present when that (20)interview took place, weren't you? • A.: Yes, I was. • Q.: Do you remember which day that was? Was that the 12th or the 13th? • A.: That should have been on the 12th. (25)
• Q.: Let me now play a second tape for you, a
MR. HARMON: And before I play that tape, I'd
also ask the usher to disseminate Prosecutor's Exhibit
67A and B, which is an English and B/C/S transcript of
(5)the tape.
Now, if we could proceed by playing
Prosecutor's Exhibit 66. Lower the lights, please. MR. HARMON: (10) • Q.: All right. Colonel Kingori, if I could first of all ask you, can you tell, from looking at that film, where that film was taken? • A.: Your Honour, I can. I can remember it was -- even from the buildings which are there, I can be able (15)to tell that it was somewhere ahead of Potocari, as you go towards Srebrenica. It is somewhere near those factories which were there. I can recall that place. • Q.: Now, you didn't actually see that interview take place, did you? (20) • A.: I did not.
• Q.: Friday in your testimony, you identified a
number of people who you saw in Potocari, and you
identified a particular individual, I'm going to have
the usher place the photograph on the ELMO, an
(25)individual you saw who was present with General
MR. HARMON: And if I could have placed on the ELMO Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/8.1. • Q.: Again, Judge Wald was not here, Colonel (5)Kingori. Can you identify with your pointer the man you saw with General Krstic in Potocari in this photograph? • A.: This is the man [indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the (10)man in the brown T-shirt on the left side of the image. Now, if we could go back to the film, to the portion of General Krstic's interview, the portion that I have previously asked to be freeze-framed, and if I (15)could direct Your Honours' attention to the video monitor. • Q.: I'd like to direct, Colonel Kingori, your attention first to the man who appears over the left-hand shoulder of General Krstic, and I'd like to (20)direct Your Honours' attention to that individual as well. You can see him in the background. He's walking from the right-hand side of the monitor to the left, in the direction of General Krstic.
MR. HARMON:
(25)Now, Mr. Usher, if you would kindly take
• Q.: Now, Colonel Kingori, do you see the individual in Prosecutor's Exhibit 58, which is the still photograph taken from the film, and do you see the man in the background of that? Is that the same (15)man you saw with General Krstic on the 12th of July? • A.: Yes, he is. This is the same person. • Q.: All right. MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. Mr. Usher, I've concluded with that set of exhibits. (20) • Q.: Now, Colonel Kingori, do you have in front of you a copy of the transcript of General Mladic's interview, which is marked in the upper right-hand corner as Prosecutor's Exhibit 79A. • A.: Yes, I have. (25)
• Q.: Now, I'd like you to -- I'm going to read
• A.: First of all, I would like to draw you back
to what I said on Friday concerning where BSA were
targeting. They were mainly concentrating their fire
(20)power on Srebrenica village and Potocari. This is
where mainly there were civilian population, heavy
civilian population were in Potocari and Srebrenica.
So seeing that they were not targeting the civilians,
here I would not like to believe him.
(25)Concerning UNPROFOR, this is not correct
(15) • Q.: Let me direct you to the remaining part of that sentence, which says: "We have provided transport, food, water, and medicine," referring to the civilian population. Do you have any comments or observations on that particular part of the sentence? (20)
• A.: All I can say, on the side of transport, they
provided transport for those people to leave the
enclave -- okay, not for them to leave the enclave but
to transport them to where they wanted to take them.
For food, there was no food that they gave the civilian
(25)population, or even us, those who were inside that
• Q.: Let me direct your attention to the following (15)sentence: "In the course of the day, in the first round, we'll be evacuating women, children, the elderly, and all of those who want, of their own free will, without any coercion, to leave this combat area." (20)What are your comments, Colonel Kingori, on that part of this sentence by General Mladic that people could leave of their own free will without any coercion?
• A.: One thing to note here is that these people,
(25)that is, the Muslims, were not given a choice whether
• Q.: Now, Colonel Kingori, do you have a copy of Prosecutor's Exhibit 67A, a transcript of the interview with General Krstic? Do you have that in front of you? (15) • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: Let me direct your attention to two sentences, and I'm going to ask you to do the same thing, to comment on the substance of these two sentences in General Krstic's statement. The first is (20)the second to last sentence in the first paragraph: "We guarantee safety to civilians." Do you have any comments about that?
• A.: For one, I don't know what he's actually
referring to because the safety of civilians was
(25)breached a long time before he made this comment. It
• Q.: Let me turn to the second sentence in that first paragraph, and I quote: "They will be taken (15)safely to a destination of their choice." Your comments, please, Colonel Kingori.
• A.: Your Honour, as to the destination of their
choice, these people, as I said earlier, were not asked
where they want to go. They did not have a choice of
(20)their destination. So they were actually relying on
where these BSA would take them. Whether it is to a
good place, a bad place, or whatever, it all depended
on the BSA. So they did not have a choice of where
they wanted to go.
(25)On the side of safely, you know, being taken
• Q.: Let me know focus on the issue of choice of the refugees either to remain in Srebrenica enclave or to go to a destination of their choice. Did you, on (10)the 13th of July, have an occasion to leave Potocari and go into Srebrenica, to the town of Srebrenica? • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: Could you tell the Judges what you observed when a Muslim woman did express their choice to remain (15)in the town of Srebrenica?
• A.: Your Honour, on that day, that is, the 13th,
we went to Srebrenica for patrol, with MSF personnel.
Me, I was representing the UNMOs, and on the roadside,
as we approached Srebrenica, we could see dead bodies
(20)on the roadside, next to buildings, and all that, all
the way up to the Srebrenica town itself. Inside
there, we went to the hospital, where we found some six
old women, and we told them there that we wanted to go
with them to Potocari, for their own safety, and also
(25)for them to be checked medically, but one of the women
• Q.: Finally, Colonel Kingori, based on your observations of General Krstic and the other high-ranking officers who were present in Potocari (15)before, during the transportation of the Muslim civilians out of the enclave, did it appear to you that they were working together to achieve the goal of transporting all of the refugees out of the enclave? • A.: Certainly they were all working together, for (20)the same cause, just to ensure that all the Muslims leave that place, all of them board those buses and go outside that enclave.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I've concluded my
examination of Colonel Kingori.
(25)Thank you, Colonel Kingori.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. Mr. Petrusic -- Colonel Kingori, you will now (5)be asked some questions by Counsel Petrusic, who represents the defendant General Krstic. You have the floor, Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours; good morning, my learned friends. (10) • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: Good morning, Colonel. The other five officers, UN UNMOs in the enclave, arrived at the same time you did? • A.: No, they did not. (15) • Q.: And other UNMOs, did they have contacts with Muslim either/or Serb officers during their stay there apart from of you, I mean, and independently of you? • A.: Yes, they were. We were all working together, but at times they could contact them in my (20)absence. • Q.: Did they submit some reports independently of you, after their contacts with representatives of the Muslims -- that is, Serb side?
• A.: That is not true because any report that was
(25)being made from outside, whatever observations the UNMO
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, the commander of the Muslim (5)army in Srebrenica was Nasir Oric, wasn't he? • A.: Yes. We were told there was a Nasir Oric, who I personally never met. • Q.: And the chief of staff was Ramiz Becirovic, wasn't he? (10) • A.: That is true. • Q.: And the military organisation, headed by Oric with Becirovic as the chief of staff, was that military organisation the 28th Division? • A.: Your Honour, we had the 28th Division, but (15)the way it was organised was not the same way a conventional army is organised, or the way orders are taken -- orders are given, executed, and also feedback given, it was not the same way as we had with the BSA. • Q.: You mean the whole setup was different in the (20)army of Bosnian Muslims in the area of Srebrenica? The organisation was different.
• A.: Your Honour, that is not what I mean, because
any military organisation is different from the other.
But I mean for the proper functioning of a military
(25)organisation, there are definite components and ways of
• Q.: But the army of Bosnian Muslims in (5)Srebrenica, it had the commander, the chief of staff, and their assistants. Would it not be part of their organisational layout? • A.: I don't think that we can call that an organisation because, for one, to have an organised (10)army or armed forces, at least the basic component has got to be the personnel and their arms. These people did not have the personnel, that is, the soldiers, as far as we knew. They also did not have arms. All their heavy weapons were in the DutchBat compound; all (15)their machine-guns were also there. So maybe what could have been outside was small arms. But, I mean, what can an army with just rifles be doing? And that is why I'm saying that that was not an organised army. The BiH was not an organised army as such. (20) • Q.: In view of the relief of the territory, that is, that area around Srebrenica is a mountainous area, there were infantry units because it was even impossible to position heavy weapons in that area, in view of the mountainous terrain. (25)
• A.: As far as I know, heavy weapons such as
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, members of the BSA, with (10)their liaison officers, Major Nikolic and Major Vukovic, did you hear them complain of helicopters flying into the area during your stay in Srebrenica?
• A.: Your Honour, there was one time that we were
told in a meeting in Bratunac by Colonel Vukovic that a
(15)helicopter had been heard flying into the enclave, and
it was shot down by the BSA. And it was -- as he said,
it was coming in support of the Muslims but they shot
it down. That is one instance that we had concerning a
helicopter. And when we asked him where the occupants
(20)of the helicopter went to, he did not give us an
answer. And then after that, when we went to the BiH
site, we asked them if they knew of any helicopter that
had entered the enclave. They also denied having seen
any helicopter. They also denied that a helicopter had
(25)crashed. But later on we gathered information from the
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, during your testimony on Friday, you said that in early June a meeting had been organised, and you mentioned it today, at the Bratunac Hotel, and that meeting was attended by Major Nikolic, (10)Colonel Vukovic, and another high-ranking officer, whose face was shown you on the ELMO in Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4. Do you remember that? • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: And that third officer, did he rank higher (15)than Nikolic and Vukovic, or didn't he? • A.: That officer was -- as far as we thought, was slightly higher or above Nikolic. • Q.: Did the three of them come from the same formation in the Bosnian Serb army? (20) • A.: With that, I'm not very sure, but I know there were two formations around the Srebrenica enclave, and they could have come from either or both of them.
• Q.: Could you tell us which were those two
(25)formations?
• Q.: These other persons, were they also from the (5)Drina Corps? • A.: I think they were. I think they were, but for record purposes, I'm not really sure whether they were from the Drina Corps or not. • Q.: Colonel Kingori, in your conversations with (10)Vukovic and Nikolic, did you ever learn who had appointed them as liaison officers with you, or rather with the UN military observers in general? • A.: We were never told who appointed them. • Q.: You don't know to whom they were responsible (15)in respect of that? • A.: Well, there was the normal BSA hierarchy. Since they all belonged to the Bosnian Serb army, Major Nikolic was a lower person, we had Vukovic, we had Krstic, Acamovic, and all that, all the way up to (20)General Ratko Mladic's level. So there were other stages which I definitely cannot be able to tell who was filling which post, but at least they were all in that setup of the BSA service.
• Q.: During that meeting, you said that Vukovic
(25)had made a proposal for a safe passage for the
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, may I show this to Colonel Kingori. This is his statement, the statement that he gave to the (5)Prosecutors of this Tribunal on the 23rd, 24th, 25th of September, 1997. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Exhibit D10. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Colonel Kingori, this is your statement, is (10)it not? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: On page 4, third paragraph from the bottom, you say: "Again he reiterated the offer to open a safe passage to evacuate the Muslims towards Tuzla." (15) • A.: Yes, I said that. • Q.: On the basis of that, you concluded, Colonel Kingori, that there had been a plan concerning the events that would take place in July. • A.: Yes, I said that. (20)
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, could you now perhaps tell
us what were other elements of this plan that may have
been discussed at the meeting, and on the basis of
which you reached your conclusion? Was there anything
else in addition to what you have stated in this
(25)statement?
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, the conclusion that you have just exposed is different from the conclusion made in (15)the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, that is, this conclusion here is far broader. Do you agree with that? • A.: No, I don't agree. These are similar conclusions. (20) • Q.: Colonel Kingori, you will agree with me that on the 16th [sic] of July, 250 shells fell on Srebrenica. Is that a correct piece of information? • A.: That is true.
• Q.: In the course of the following days, after
(25)the 6th, the shelling of the town continued; is that
• A.: That is correct. • Q.: In your reports, the number you give was between 50 and 100 shells, sometimes even more than (5)that. • A.: Yes, I remember stating that. • Q.: The damage caused to the structures in the town of Srebrenica, if we bear in mind the number of shells that fell -- (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Mr. Harmon, I don't know if you're going to mention the date. Mr. Petrusic, I think that you spoke about (15)the 16th of July, but perhaps you were actually -- you actually wanted to say the 6th of July and not the 16th. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Your Honour, I was speaking about the 6th of July. There (20)may have been an error in interpretation. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Therefore, the transcript will have to be rectified. The date in question is not the 16th of July but the 6th of July. Thank you very much for paying attention to this. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.]
(5) • A.: Yes, I do agree. • Q.: Unfortunately, there were casualties amongst the Muslim civilian population. The number you give is six wounded persons in the town. My question is very similar to the previous one: In view of the number of (10)shells, the number of wounded persons is also out of proportion, however unfortunate it was.
• A.: Yes. On this issue of the number of shells
and the number of casualties, we had even remarked
somewhere, I know it is somewhere written in this
(15)document, that considering the number of shells that
landed there, we were lucky to have very few
casualties. All there is is that the shells were
landing, luckily, if I can call it, on the roads, in
the market, somewhere where luckily there are no
(20)buildings or there weren't many people there. But
where we suspected they thought, that is, the BSA,
where they thought there would be people. We're
talking about the marketplace, the roads, inside the
town of Srebrenica itself, and also the route from
(25)Srebrenica to Potocari, and all that, they were
(10) • Q.: Colonel Kingori, in your statement given to the OTP, on page 6, the penultimate sentence, the second one from the bottom, states as follows: "I did not understand why they were targeting the town in this way. The only explanation was to harass the (15)population, to bring them to flee." MR. HARMON: For the record, and to assist the witness, that is found on page 6, it is the second paragraph from the bottom, the large paragraph, and the statement referred to by counsel is in the middle of (20)that particular paragraph. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, counsel. I'm reading from the Serbian translation.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. Petrusic, I'm very sorry to have to interrupt you
(25)again, but due to some exceptional circumstances, we
(5) --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, you can continue now. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, (10)Mr. President. • Q.: And so Colonel Kingori, before the break, we were talking about the statement that you made to the Prosecutor's Office and your conclusion that you did not understand why they were shelling the town in this (15)manner, and your conclusion was that the only purpose of this exercise was to intimidate the population, to force them to flee. And this conclusion figured in your report to your superiors, didn't it?
• A.: It did. This one did, but at the same time,
(20)it's also on record somewhere in these documents that
they were aiming at the populated areas, and definitely
the populated areas, you don't just aim there for any
other purpose other than for hitting those people who
are there, the inhabitants.
(25)On the same page, if you can see the second
(10) • Q.: Colonel Kingori, in attachment 18 to your statement, you once again draw the same conclusion when it comes to the shelling of the Potocari base, and you say that it was quite evident that they were going off the mark, off the target, that is, off the building, on (15)purpose. Is that true? Page 8 of the English version, third paragraph from below. • A.: I really don't get the actual place. • Q.: In the English version, page 8, one, two, three, the fourth paragraph from below, and the last (20)sentence of that paragraph, the paragraph beginning with the words "The document attached, number 16 ..." Colonel Kingori, would it be easier if -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Yes,
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps it would be simpler if you gave us the paragraph, you say the fourth from below, on page 8, perhaps you could (5)tell us how the paragraph begins. It will be easier to identify it. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. It begins with the words "They were obviously deliberately missing the buildings." (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Because even I can't find that passage. I was saying the paragraph begins with -- the paragraph begins how? Is it "The document attached number 16 is incomplete because ..." is that it, and after that, it would be (15)one, two, three, four, five, the sixth line -- MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, precisely. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Colonel Kingori, have you found it? (20) THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Yes. Proceed. Thank you.
• A.: Now, if you can read the preceding lines, and
especially the second sentence on the same paragraph,
(25)where it starts "It mentions that from 1845 to 2051, 45
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Colonel Kingori, you knew Emir Suljajic, didn't you? (15) • A.: Yes, I did. He was our interpreter from the BiH side. • Q.: And he only worked as an interpreter. • A.: He was our interpreter, one of them, because there were two. (20) • Q.: Colonel Kingori, did Emir Suljajic tell you that between 1250 and 1350 in Srebrenica there were 49 shells recorded? • A.: That is true, he did.
• Q.: Likewise, the two shells fell in the vicinity
(25)of the hospital.
• Q.: Could then one infer that it was on the basis of his information that you reported to your command about those 49 shells, or rather two shells barely (5)missing the hospital? • A.: The reason why we used this information was that we could not be able to go to that -- • Q.: No. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I apologise, (10)Mr. President. If I may, and I should also like to apologise to the witness, whether the information was used in order to notify the higher command, that is, I should like to receive a brief answer without any explanations. (15) MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours, I would request that the witness be permitted to provide explanations if explanations clarify his answer. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] (20)Mr. Petrusic, could you repeat your question, please. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Did Colonel Kingori use the information he received from Emir Suljajic to send it on to the higher command in his report? (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So Colonel
(5)
• A.: Your Honour, on this occasion what happened
was that we were unable to go for patrols. We were
unable to go to Srebrenica itself to see what was going
on. So as our own initiative, because we wanted to
know what was happening, we decided to send one of our
(10)interpreters who, after some discussion with him on how
he's going to get to that place, that is, Srebrenica,
investigate what is going on, report to us using the
radio set that we had given him, and then we used that
information.
(15)The point here was that we were unable to go
there.
Secondly, even in the sitrep that we sent to
the UN headquarters, we said -- we actually wrote the
word "NCBU", to mean "not confirmed by UNMOs". It is
(20)evident it is there, something we have not clarified,
we have not confirmed ourselves. We had to indicate.
So it was not meant for any other purpose other than to
update us on what is going on. But we could not
clarify, we could not confirm, and we reported it that
(25)way.
(5) • A.: Your Honour, it was, but with the words "NCBU," not confirmed by UNMOs. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Mr. Petrusic, does that answer satisfy you? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, (10)Mr. President, thank you. I have only a few questions more, and I hope you will bear with me and I hope the witness will bear with me too. • Q.: Colonel Kingori, did you see General Krstic arrive in Potocari on the 12th of July? (15) • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: When was that, approximately? • A.: I cannot remember the actual timing, but it was somewhere in the middle of the day, somewhere there. I'm not very sure of the actual timing, but he (20)came together with Major Nikolic and the other senior officers. • Q.: In your testimony on Friday, you said that Krstic issued orders to soldiers.
• A.: What I said, and I can remember very well,
(25)was that when we were together with General Mladic and
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, in view of an organisational layout, or rather hierarchial order in the army, and it is if not identical then very similar in all the armies (15)of the world, would you think from that point of view, would you think it normal for a high-ranking officer, that is, a General, yet in the presence of lower ranking officers, would you think it natural and logical for him to issue orders to the troops? (20) • A.: What was happening in this case was a bit different from the normal, because even in normal circumstances someone of General Mladic's level could not issue orders to the soldiers, but he was. So they were doing it. (25)
• Q.: Could you tell us how long did General Krstic
• A.: Well, I cannot tell for sure, but at least I know we were together for quite some time, not in the same location but at least he was in that vicinity for (5)quite some time. Let's say over an hour, it was something like that, but I did not know where he went after that. But the following day he was still around. That means that he was somewhere there, even if he left, maybe he just went and came back to (10)continue with his work. • Q.: Colonel Kingori, you reported to your command about the presence of the Bosnian Serb army officers in Potocari, didn't you? • A.: Yes, I did. (15) • Q.: Did you also report the presence of General Krstic there? • A.: Your Honour, I did not. Same with other senior officers, I did not report about every senior officer that was there. There were so many. (20) • Q.: But the rule was to notify the superior command about the presence of officers; would that be correct to say?
• A.: Well, you can say you could have reported,
but then you would not be able to report on every
(25)senior officer who was there. It was impossible,
• Q.: And did you report about the presence of (10)Mladic? • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: You also reported about the presence of Vukovic. • A.: Yes, I did. (15) • Q.: Likewise, you reported about the presence of Colonel Acamovic, I believe. • A.: Correct, I did. • Q.: You also reported about the presence of Major Nikolic. (20) • A.: Yes, I did. Nikolic at least was with us throughout.
• Q.: You mentioned a number of higher ranking
officers therefore. You said that they were present on
the location. The only officer whose presence you did
(25)not report to your command was General Krstic; is that
• A.: That's not correct. I believe that there were other senior officers who we did not report on. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Your Honour, (5)this concludes my cross-examination of this witness. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Harmon, do you have any additional (10)questions? MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Harmon. (15)Judge Fouad Riad. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Colonel Kingori. (20) • A.: Good morning, Your Honour.
JUDGE RIAD: I have been listening very
carefully to your very thorough testimony, and still I
would like to ask you a few questions to see things
clearer.
(25)In one of your -- in one of the films you
• A.: Your Honour, the interpretation to that is that he meant he's going to ensure the enclave is free of all Muslims, to get rid of all the Muslims from the enclave, and that is the way that he meant. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Because I'm just putting this together with another declaration by Colonel Vukovic. I think you said that in a meeting, when you had the meeting with the high-grade officers, he mentioned that Muslims should leave the enclave in their totality, if (15)not they would be all killed. Do you think these two statements are coherent? I mean, was the one confirming what the other one was saying, to leave or be killed? • A.: Your Honour, that confirms what the earlier (20)statement was all about. JUDGE RIAD: And in your opinion, who was higher in grade, Vukovic or General Krstic? Was he a General at the time?
• A.: I did not know him as a General. I knew him
(25)as a Colonel.
• A.: Yes, he was a Colonel. JUDGE RIAD: The Defence counsel was (5)mentioning that a General cannot give orders to soldiers. In relation to what was happening, soldiers doing all that you mentioned, including stealing your glasses and stealing civilians and your own people, United Nations people, was any action taken to stop (10)this? • A.: Your Honour, the only action I can remember was concerning my sunglasses. Nothing else was being done to stop whatever was going on inside that enclave, and especially in Potocari. No senior officer tried to (15)stop it. JUDGE RIAD: But you brought always complaints about what was happening. I mean, of course your sunglasses are precious to you, but other lives were also involved. But did you always bring (20)complaints to the higher authorities among the Serbs? • A.: Your Honour, I was always doing that, but nothing was being done about the whole thing.
JUDGE RIAD: Yes. And the answer of the
Defence counsel, he said, "Because Generals cannot give
(25)orders to soldiers." Were these soldiers more or less
• A.: Your Honour, these soldiers could receive (5)orders from their superiors. It's only that they were not following, that is, they were not -- I don't know what I can say, whether they were not obeying. But the senior officers could give the officers, we could see them telling them to do something extra or to go to a (10)certain place, and they could go. But concerning this particular issue of the atrocities or doing something bad to the civilians or to us, no one was telling them to stop it. I could not hear anyone telling them that. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Good. So I would like to have a very precise conclusion. There was a firm command, if I understood you rightly, a firm chain of command, I remember your words, which means that a General can give orders to his, let us say, to the people who are (20)lower in grade, and so on, until they reach the soldiers, and in between this chain there was nothing irregular. I mean, each one could be obeyed by his superior. • A.: Your Honour, that is true. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: A real army.
JUDGE RIAD: You just mentioned that not only that it was -- that they were highly equipped with tanks and with heavy military weapons and so on. Were (5)the Muslims equally equipped? • A.: Your Honour, the Muslims did not have anything as compared to what the BSA had. They did not have tanks, they did not have artillery, they did not have mortars, they did not have machine-guns. In fact, (10)during my whole stay there, I saw only one machine-gun belonging to the BiH. And that as compared to what the BSA had, it was nothing. JUDGE RIAD: Did the Muslims have inside Srebrenica, did they have hidden weapons? You (15)mentioned, for instance, that the hospital was hit and missed three times by a few metres. Was the hospital used to hide weapons, for instance? That's why they were trying to target it. They targeted, you said, civilians. Were civilians used as a shield to hide (20)weapons?
• A.: Your Honour, as far as I know, and I
inspected that hospital, there were no soldiers there
and there was no military base or headquarters or an
ammo depot, or something like that, inside that
(25)hospital. There was none at all.
(5) • A.: It's true, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: All right. And in the event where they were, in fact, forcing them to flee, were they able to flee? • A.: Your Honour, they could not be able to flee (10)because they were being bombarded from all sides. There was no escape route, there was no where that they could have gone through to go to wherever. So they were actually all forced to one area, towards Potocari. (15) JUDGE RIAD: They were forced to what area? • A.: Towards Potocari. Even those that were -- not on the western side, those who were in the eastern side, the Sudisuta [phoen] village and all that, they were all forced to come to Srebrenica, and I testified (20)that they all left to Potocari. So they were channelled to one area. JUDGE RIAD: But I conclude from what you said that it was not to let them free -- • A.: It was not to let them free, Your Honour. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: It was to destroyed.
JUDGE RIAD: And, of course, you brought that up to your superiors. (5) • A.: Yes, Your Honour, I did that. JUDGE RIAD: And nothing happened. • A.: Something that was planned, that is, for the airstrikes to hit the military target for the BSA, but the airstrikes did not produce much. In fact, the only (10)thing that they managed to hit was one tank, and I think one -- and I think one bridge or something like that. One tank, and it's on record here somewhere, I don't know whether it was a bridge or artillery piece. I'm not very sure, but that was the only thing they (15)managed to hit. JUDGE RIAD: Who are "they"? • A.: The NATO. JUDGE RIAD: But then they could not continue. (20) • A.: They could not continue. JUDGE RIAD: Was that to save you?
• A.: In fact, at that time the reason they did not
continue was to save the whole enclave. Because the
BSA called us for a meeting and they said, if the
(25)airstrikes continue, if they continue, they are going
JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry? • A.: We were not allowed to attend just because (10)the UN feared that we might be taken as human shields against the airstrikes. JUDGE RIAD: So you were in danger, in fact. • A.: We were in danger ourselves. JUDGE RIAD: You were in real danger. (15) • A.: Yes, we were. JUDGE RIAD: And you explained that in the meetings with the high-grade officials, the high-grade officers, of the -- Vukovic and the other ones whom you met? (20)
• A.: Your Honour, I did that. We explained to
them but they were always assuring us that they don't
have anything against UNPROFOR, they've got nothing
against us at all. All they wanted was the Muslims.
But then when a shell lands somewhere where you are, it
(25)does not discriminate whether you are Muslim, whether
JUDGE RIAD: And you felt that in the meetings with these officers, they were all one -- one (5)opinion, or did somebody prove some opposition? For instance, when Colonel Vukovic would tell you, "If the Muslims do not leave, they will all be killed." I think there were other officers including -- I don't know the other names. Was General Krstic with them? (10) • A.: At that time he was not there. I did not notice him. JUDGE RIAD: You did not notice him? • A.: I did not notice him. But no other senior officer ever opposed whatever was said, like that (15)meeting when he said he was going to kill all of them, no one opposed it, no one talked against it at all. JUDGE RIAD: No one. You mentioned that on the 12th of July you noticed the arrival of new Serb soldiers who were different from other BSA soldiers. (20)In what way were they different? And do you think they were from other parts than Bosnia?
• A.: Your Honour, these soldiers who came first
wore black, as compared to the normal camouflage, green
camouflage, that we were used to on the BSA side. You
(25)know, BSA could have the normal camouflage that is
(5) JUDGE RIAD: Yes. • A.: Yes, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: It's from that area -- • A.: They were from Arkan's. We suspected from they were from Arkan's Brigade. (10) JUDGE RIAD: And Arkan's Brigade came from Bosnia. • A.: Arkan's Brigade, as far as I knew, was headquartered somewhere in Erdut. That was in eastern Slavonia. That was where it was headquartered. And it (15)was very feared, it included masonries, people from other countries who could go to fight and then be paid for it or something like that. JUDGE RIAD: Paid for by whom? • A.: Paid for by the guys they were fighting for. (20)Like, in this case, it should have been the Bosnian Serbs who were paying for it. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. Thank you, Colonel Kingori. THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
JUDGE WALD: Colonel Kingori, I have only
basically one question. The Prosecutor's Exhibit 67,
(5)the film clip of the journalist's interview with
General Krstic, he makes the following statement: "The
Drina Corps has been conducting this operation
successfully. We have not suspended this operation.
We are going all the way to liberate the municipality
(10)of Srebrenica. We guarantee safety to civilians. They
will be taken safely to a destination of their
choice."
Now, this statement was made at Potocari in
July 12th. You were there at the time, as I
(15)understand. Not at the interview, but you were in
Potocari on the 12th and other days. In reading that
statement in light of what you saw during the period
you were in Potocari, do you interpret that statement
to mean that the Drina Corps is conducting this
(20)operation, not just the takeover of Srebrenica, but the
evacuation operation which is guaranteeing safety to
civilians, according to General Krstic, to a
destination of their choice? In short, the Drina Corps
was in charge of the whole operation. And would that
(25)be consistent with what you observed while you were
• A.: Your Honour, what this meant was that they're going to clean the whole of that enclave of the Muslims, ensure that -- (5) JUDGE WALD: "That enclave" now meaning Potocari as well as Srebrenica? • A.: The whole enclave. JUDGE WALD: Okay. • A.: The whole enclave, to make sure -- of course, (10)they were using the more known villages, that is, Srebrenica and Potocari, but they meant the whole enclave, that it would be free of Muslims and that would be the successful finishing of their job. The only problem I have there is with the free -- to be (15)taken to the place of their choice. That did not happen and that actually was not the case because they were not asked where they wanted to go.
JUDGE WALD: No, I understand that part of
your prior testimony, Major, but I just want to ask one
(20)question over again to make sure I have your answer,
and that is: It was your impression, consistent with
what General Krstic said, that the Drina Corps was in
charge of not only cleaning out the enclaves, making
sure that the Muslims, but the evacuation and what
(25)happened to the people, whatever happened to them, that
• A.: As far as I know, they were taking full responsibility of all that. JUDGE WALD: Thank you. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Judge Wald. Colonel Kingori, I have only two questions for you. You testified at some point, in response to a question that was put to you by Mr. Harmon, that Serbs (10)had been the aggressor in that case. Could you now tell us what was the result or conclusion of your observations on the basis of which you could state that?
• A.: Your Honour, this was based on basically what
(15)the Muslims had, comparing what the Muslims had, and
what the Bosnian Serbs had, and also the activities
which were going on at that particular time. It meant
that it was the Muslims who are receiving, from the
BSA, than actually what was going out from the Muslim
(20)side. In fact, we did not record anything going out
from the Muslim side. That means if it is the Serbs,
the Bosnian Serbs, who were actually directing their
fire against the Muslims, it meant obviously they were
the -- they -- what can I call it? They were the
(25)aggressors, they were the aggressors, as far as we
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] My second
question is the following: In order to ask this
question, I should need assistance of the technical
(10)room. I need Exhibits, Prosecution Exhibits 79A, first
of all, and then after that one, 67A.
I shall like to ask you, Colonel Kingori, to
watch carefully the bodyguards of General Mladic on
that footage and also to have a look at the bodyguards
(15)of General Krstic, if it is possible. And after that
I'm going to ask my question. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think this will be enough for the purpose of my question. If (20)you can please stop here and show us the next exhibit, that is, 67A. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] It is actually Exhibit 66, because it is only the video clip that we need here. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. I'm
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry. Okay. Very well. My question for you, Colonel (5)Kingori, is the following: Do you see any link, any connection, between the bodyguards of General Mladic and bodyguards of General Krstic? I do not wish to lead you in your answer. Perhaps you can answer my question the way it has been put to you. Do you think (10)there is any connection, any link, between the two? Do you think that we are talking about the same persons, or are they different persons? • A.: Your Honour, I don't understand whether you mean whether they are the same person, that is, General (15)Krstic and General Mladic, or what do you mean? Because these are two different people altogether. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Your conclusion, therefore, is that they were bodyguards. I have another question for you. Were you (20)present when General Mladic was being interviewed and when General Krstic was being interviewed as well? Were you present at those two occasions?
• A.: Your Honour, I was present when General
Mladic was being interviewed, but when Krstic was being
(25)interviewed, I was not there. But I'm sure I was just
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] My question was the following, actually: This blonde soldier who seemed to be a bodyguard of General Mladic, was he the (5)same as the one who was with General Krstic? • A.: Your Honour, I was not very observant on that, so I'm sorry. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] That's okay. You have answered my questions. Thank you very (10)much, Colonel Kingori. I don't think we have any more questions for you. Thank you very much for coming here to testify before the International Criminal Tribunal. We know that you spent some very difficult moments there in the area. Thank you very much for coming and (15)we wish you a safe journey home. But before we let you go, I think that we have to check on the status of certain exhibits. Mr. Dubuisson or Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I would move for
(20)admission into evidence the following Prosecutor's
Exhibits: Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/1, 28/3.2, 28/8.1;
Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/3B; Prosecutor's Exhibit 58;
Prosecutor's Exhibit 66; 67A and B, which are
transcripts from the video of the interview with
(25)General Krstic; Prosecutor's Exhibit 76, which is the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, do you have any objections or remarks (15)concerning these exhibits? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, just one thing that I should like to check. The exhibit that was shown on your request, 66A, is that the video clip of the interview given by General (20)Krstic? Has that been tendered into evidence by the Prosecution? Is that the Exhibit 66 that we are talking about? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon. (25)
MR. HARMON: Yes, 66 is the video clip and
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The Defence does not object to the exhibits tendered by the (5)Prosecution, save for the Exhibit 66 and for the following reason: Until today the Defence has not been able to check the locality, the specific location where the material was filmed. As regards all of the remaining exhibits, we do not have any objections. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, as regards the exhibit in question, do you wish to say something?
MR. HARMON: I do. This witness has viewed
the video, he was present in Potocari, he has
(15)identified a relevant building that's in the background
as being in Potocari, in addition to which we will
present additional evidence from Mr. Ruez, who will be
able to identify the exact location in Potocari where
the interview of General Krstic occurred. But I think
(20)it's sufficient for purposes of introduction of this
exhibit that this witness has identified the exhibit as
having been filmed in Potocari, and from the context of
the statement that is -- 67A clearly supports the time
and probably the location where this film was taken.
(25)But more directly, as I say, this witness has
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] (5)Mr. Petrusic, your objection needs some explanation for the Chamber. Do you object to the authenticity of the document, or if there is another purpose in your objection?
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President,
(10)the authenticity of the document and the interview
given by General Krstic is not objected to by the
Defence. However, so far we have not been able to
ascertain the particular location of the interview,
because in the background of the video clip there is
(15)something which we cannot precisely identify. We
cannot identify the structures that were referred to by
Mr. Ruez here before the Chamber. Colonel Kingori, if
I may paraphrase his answer, stated that it was
somewhere outside Potocari, if I was careful enough
(20)following his testimony, if I'm correct in quoting
him.
So for these reasons the Defence will have to
adopt a position on this particular exhibit, we will
have to make a representation on that, and so far, as I
(25)have already stated, we have not been able to verify
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. You may sit down. I think that Colonel Kingori was not -- did not agree to your (5)quotation. The witness is still here, so let me ask the question once again. Colonel Kingori, as regards this particular video clip, do you have anything else to add? You remember the exhibit in question is Exhibit 66, that (10)is, the interview given by General Krstic. • A.: Your Honour, I remember this particular clip, and even when I was answering, I said it was somewhere in Potocari, not outside Potocari. In that area, if you look at that video clip, you can see some buildings (15)which are behind there. I could easily identify those buildings. There is one where there is a mosque somewhere there, and I know where those buildings were in Potocari. They were -- as you leave Potocari, towards -- as you leave the DutchBat compound, towards (20)Srebrenica village, it was, I think, the third factory somewhere there. I can easily locate the place. It's only that myself personally, I was not there during the interview, but I can identify that place.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
(25)very much, Colonel Kingori.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Your (5)Honour, you're right. We should like to tender D10 into evidence. MR. HARMON: The Prosecution has no objection.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
(10)Thank you. Mr. Harmon does not have any objections to
this exhibit.
Let me consult with my colleagues before I
make a ruling. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Exhibits that have been tendered by the Prosecutor, including Exhibit 66, and the Defence Exhibit as well, D10, will be admitted into evidence. Colonel Kingori, now this is really the end (20)of your testimony. Thank you very much, and have a safe journey home.
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your
Honour. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Harmon,
(5) MR. HARMON: Our next witness, Mr. President, is Mrs. Malagic, and she does not require any protection.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
Thank you. I think this would be a convenient time for
(10)a break, before we begin with the testimony of
Mrs. Malagic. However, before we go into recess, I
should like to say something to the parties. I know
that there is a decision, a ruling pending, the
decision regarding the contact with witnesses after
(15)they have been sworn in. I should like to hear you on
that once again, because we're inclining -- we're
inclined to decide that the witness, having been sworn
in, should not have contact with the parties, unless
there are some exceptional circumstances, and in that
(20)case, the Chamber should be informed thereof; that is,
the Chamber should be informed about the need, the
necessity, to contact the witness.
Now, why do I say that? I think that the
witness, having been sworn in, does no longer belong to
(25)any party, and he or she belongs to the justice, if I
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, Your Honours, that was indeed our suggestion; however, (10)it was following the consultation with our learned friend from the Prosecution our suggestion was modified and we agreed that it would be at the end of the examination-in-chief. What I wish to say now is the Prosecution has (15)already called so many of their witnesses, and unless we take -- unless this decision is taken now, then I think we shall enjoy less equality than they did. If we have to submit anything, we should like to submit the suggestion, the proposal, that was formulated (20)jointly with the Prosecution. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, what is your view? What do you think about this, if I may call it that, the proposal of the Chamber?
MR. HARMON: In respect to the proposal of
(25)the Chamber, which is to have no contact after the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, (15)if I may cut in, I forgot about one element. Having taken the solemn declaration, the parties may have contact with the witness in the presence, however, of the other party. That is a small detail that I forgot to mention, and I do apologise. Perhaps I was not (20)clear enough.
MR. HARMON: So as I understand the Court's
proposal, after the witness has been sworn, there can
be no contact, and if there is, there has to be an
application made to the Trial Chamber and the contact
(25)has to be in the presence of the other party. Do I
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. After the oath, there can be no contact unless it is -- but if that proves necessary, you need to communicate with (5)the Chamber, and this contact, this communication, will always be made in the presence of the other party.
MR. HARMON: That's acceptable to the
Prosecutor's Office, certainly. (10) JUDGE WALD: Mr. Harmon, let me just ask you a question about your accession to that. So in other words, it would be acceptable to you that if something came up, some so-called exceptional circumstance that you needed to consult with your witness before the (15)witness had finished on direct, you would be willing to do that in the presence of Defence counsel?
MR. HARMON: Let me answer your question in a
certain way, and that's this: We have ongoing
investigations. Those investigations are continuing as
(20)we continue in this trial and we develop additional
evidence. Now, under some circumstances, it may be I
would have no objection. In other circumstances, I
would have an objection because the circumstances --
perhaps the newly developed evidence may impinge not
(25)only on the accused but other people, and in that
(15) JUDGE WALD: While I have you there -- MR. HARMON: Yes. JUDGE WALD: -- what is your reaction to the Defence counsel's, I think, quite plausible argument that we're in the middle of trial now and we've been (20)operating under one set of rules, and they will suffer a disadvantage if it's suddenly switched.
MR. HARMON: We have a lot more witnesses to
proceed with, Judge Wald. You're right. In the
absolute sense, the rule hasn't been applied equally.
(25)It's their motion, not our motion. So when they invite
(5) JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon -- sorry. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me. Mr. Visnjic, could you wait for Judge Riad to ask his question or do you wish to raise something as a point of order? (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] I shall wait, Mr. President. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, a question. Of course you have the interest of the Prosecution in mind. Do you accept to be treated the same way, (15)because he will have the same privilege and he would -- I mean, would you rather prefer that you would be present when he contacts his witnesses, or you can undergo the same risk, let's say?
MR. HARMON: Whatever the Court's decision
(20)is, I think it ought to be the same. Mr. Visnjic,
Mr. Petrusic, and I have not talked about this
new variation, and perhaps we could have some time to
reflect on it and consult about it, but it seems to
me -- I don't know what their views are on that, and
(25)whether they would like the Prosecutor to be present
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic. Mr. Visnjic, excuse me, I did not mention (5)the detail when I gave you the floor, that having begun the testimony, the parties should not have contact with the witness, except in exceptional circumstances and only in the presence of the other party. But it is quite true that you made this application after the (10)beginning of this case, and this unequal treatment is, I'm afraid, on your side; that is, you're responsible for that. But at any rate, Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor. Sorry. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you very (15)much, Mr. President. Yes. We have somewhat modified our application after our contact with the Prosecution, and that is what I wanted to say. It only relates to the period after the examination-in-chief, and in this manner, we could avoid all the problems and all the (20)discussions that we've now had, and of course a somewhat guess situation, which is somewhat hazardous when both parties are present during the interview of witnesses.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Very
(25)well. So the Chamber is always glad to hear that there
(5) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. I believe that we should have another exchange with the Prosecution. Perhaps then we would be able to come up with a joint proposal. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. (10)Thank you. So the Chamber proposes that there shall be no contact with a witness after the witness has taken an oath, and this equally applies to the Prosecution and Defence, unless there is a reason, that is, a justification, for this contact, in which case the (15)contact must be established in the presence of the other party. And this is the gist of the proposal, but you both may belabour further this matter. But at any rate, this is the proposal. This is the conclusion that is made by the Chamber. (20)However, now we shall make a 20-minute break, and perhaps after that break or before the other break or before the end of this session, you will communicate to us your views on this matter. Now a 20-minute break. (25)
--- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good afternoon, madam. Can you hear me? First of all, you will read the solemn declaration that the usher will (5)give you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. (10)You may be seated. Are you comfortable? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I am. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did you have an opportunity to walk around a little bit, to see The Hague? (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] No. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Not yet? We hope that you will be able to do so later on, that you will have a chance to see this beautiful town. Thank you very much, madam, for coming to (20)testify before the Tribunal. You will now be answering questions that will be put to you by Mr. Cayley. He's going to treat you like a gentleman, I'm sure. Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.
MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President, Your
(25)Honours.
• EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Mrs. Malagic, if at any time you don't understand the question that I'm asking you, please do (5)ask me to repeat it, or if you need anything clarified. If you could also try and remember to take a small pause after I ask you a question because you and I are both being simultaneously translated into two other languages. (10) • A.: Very well. Thank you. • Q.: Your name is Mirsada Malagic; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And I think you were born on the 10th of (15)January, 1959, in Potocari, near Srebrenica; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, prior to the commencement of the war in 1992, I think you lived in the village of Voljavica, on (20)the banks of the Drina, which is near to the town of Bratunac; is that correct? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: In mid-1992, I think you were forced out of
your village by Serb forces and I think after about 15
(25)days you and your family found yourself in the town of
• A.: Yes. • Q.: I think that you stayed in Srebrenica until the enclave fell in July of 1995; is that correct? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, in Srebrenica, am I right in saying that you lived there with your husband, Salko, and your three sons, Elvir, Admir, and Adnan? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: I want to fast-forward in time to the 11th of July, 1995, when I think you found yourself on the road from Srebrenica to the UN compound at Potocari. Do you recall that? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Who were you with at the time? • A.: At the time, I was with my family, my husband Salko, my sons, Elvir, Admir, and Adnan. We also had my father-in-law with me, Omir Malagic, and my brother, Sadik Salihovic, and quite a number of other people. (20) • Q.: Did there come a time when you became separated from some of your family members?
• A.: At that moment, when we separated, not far
from the town of Srebrenica itself, or rather on the
way to Potocari, as of that moment we never saw one
(25)another again.
• A.: Well, we were all together on the -- on our way to Potocari, and on the road there were very many (5)people there, and when the Serb soldiers began to shell the town and when they simply wanted to take revenge, people didn't know where to turn, where to go. Women, children, and old people thought they should head for the UN base at Potocari, and then I parted company with (10)my husband, Salko Malagic, my son Elvir Malagic, my son Admir Malagic, from my brother Sadik Salihovic, and my father-in-law headed with me towards Potocari. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are unable to continue because of this noise. I believe we (15)need to do something because the Judges can't hear. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Yes, I believe something is done, Your Honour. Perhaps we should wait for a moment. We could also try to avoid the problem by keeping one's earphones as far from the (20)microphone as possible.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] If anyone
has his earphones left near the microphone, will you
please move them away. Do the interpreters -- no, the
interpreters cannot work without their earphones. Are
(25)we -- I believe we now can continue.
MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Mrs. Malagic, I'm sorry about that. There was a small technical problem, and you probably heard a (5)whining sound in your ear, but hopefully we've solved that. Now you stated that you became separated from your husband Salko and your sons Elvir and Admir, and also your brother. Where did Salko and Admir and your brother go after you separated? (10) • A.: They went towards Susnjari, the village of Susnjari, towards the woods. • Q.: Did you subsequently hear what happened to your husband and your son? • A.: From relations who were also going through (15)the forest, I received only one piece of news, that they were last seen on the road, on the asphalt, at Konjevic Polje, that they were captured there. That was the last thing I learned about them. • Q.: Were you told by whom they were captured? (20) • A.: Serb soldiers. I don't know which ones. • Q.: Now, after you separated from your husband and from one son, you found yourself -- sorry. You said something. You stated something. I didn't ...
• A.: Two sons. Two sons, separated from two
(25)sons.
(5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, while you were on the road between Srebrenica and Potocari, did you see one of your relatives pass by you as you were walking towards Potocari? (10) • A.: Not far from Potocari, about a kilometre, I'm not quite sure, a lot of people overtook us and two UNPROFOR trucks also arrived, caught up with us, and they were crammed with people. And among them I recognised my son Elvir and a friend of his from (15)Srebrenica. So we -- they could see me and I saw them, because the trucks were moving very slowly so that we could see one another. He just raised his hand to greet me, and that was the last thing that I knew about him. (20) • Q.: Now, at this time, Mrs. Malagic, what was your physical condition?
• A.: I had all my wits about me, but before
departure from Srebrenica, shells had fallen among a
group of people and I was one of those wounded then, so
(25)that my right arm hurt me, as I had been hit in the
• Q.: Now, I know you had all your wits about you at the time, but I think as well as being wounded, you (5)were pregnant, you were carrying a child; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And I think subsequently, after these events, you did give birth to a little girl; is that correct? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And what's her name? • A.: Amela Malagic. • Q.: Can you describe to the Judges your journey along the road into Potocari before you got to the Zinc (15)Factory?
• A.: As we left Srebrenica, at the first UNPROFOR
base, not far from Srebrenica, I already said shells
began to fall. One of them wounded me and a number of
other people, because there was a huge crowd of people
(20)and they were all amassed, all crowding the road, the
asphalt road at the exit from the town. Chaos ensued.
People didn't know what to do. They wanted to force
their entry into the compound, or rather that UNPROFOR
base in Srebrenica.
(25)At the beginning -- UNPROFOR soldiers at
• Q.: Just to clarify, Mrs. Malagic, it was on the journey between Srebrenica and Potocari that you had (20)this last sight of your son, Elvir, on a UNPROFOR truck; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: How old was your son Adnan at the time of these events? (25)
• A.: Eleven.
• A.: As I had been wounded, I could not carry anything in my right hand, and with my left I held my (5)youngest son, who was so frightened, and I was looking for a place to -- I was looking for a shelter. I knew those factories, I knew what they looked like because I used to work there before the war, so we went into a room, that is, into an office before the war, because (10)there were no windows, no doors. Everything had already been ruined. But I nevertheless thought that perhaps I could shield him, to keep him among the -- inside some walls, not outside, and he felt slightly safer there. (15) • Q.: Do you recall the name of the building that you went to? • A.: Before the war, when we worked there, it was the zinc plating factory in Potocari. MR. CAYLEY: If, Mr. Usher, we could have (20)Exhibit 5/2, Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2. • Q.: And while we're waiting for that, Mrs. Malagic, can you describe how your night was spent, that first night in Potocari?
• A.: Well, when we found shelter in that factory,
(25)I sat down, and my son Adnan, and in front of the
(5) • Q.: Now, Mrs. Malagic, this first day in Potocari was in the month of July. Do you recall the date that you arrived in Potocari? • A.: The 11th of July, 1995, Tuesday. • Q.: How old was your father-in-law at this time? (10) • A.: Seventy, I think so. Seventy, yes. • Q.: Let us now move to the next day, which is the 12th of July, and if you could describe to the Judges what you saw on that day, as day broke on the 12th of July. (15)
• A.: Then when the day broke, the 12th of July,
and that was Wednesday, people -- well, we were all
asking around where to go next. There was no food,
children were hungry, and we didn't even know the
language. There was no way we could communicate with
(20)UNPROFOR soldiers who would pass on occasion. We did
not have any watches, so that I can't give you the
exact times of the day. But it could have been around
9.00, perhaps half past nine, or thereabouts. From the
hills nearby, the houses began to burn, or rather I
(25)should say those were auxiliary buildings, because I
• Q.: Mrs. Malagic, if I could interrupt you at
this point, and if you could look at the photograph
(25)that is on the ELMO next to you, to your right, which
• A.: [Indicates] (5) MR. CAYLEY: For the purposes of the record, the witness is pointing at the factory, which is marked "Zinc Factory" on the Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2. • Q.: Secondly, Mrs. Malagic, if you can recall approximately the location of the houses to which Serb (10)soldiers were taking men on that evening of the 12th of July. This is the house, which you said in your evidence, you were shooed away from by two Serb soldiers. Do you remember approximately where those houses were, and if you could show the Judges on this (15)aerial photograph. • A.: [Indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is pointing to an approximate spot below the Zinc Factory, two or three centimetres below the Zinc (20)Factory. • Q.: Thank you, Mrs. Malagic. You said that this son of a work colleague was taken away by Serb soldiers. Do you recall his name? • A.: Rijad Fejzic. (25)
• Q.: How old was he at this time?
• Q.: So at this time he would have been 16 or 17 years of age. (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Has he ever been seen since this time by his family? • A.: No, never. I'm currently living in Sarajevo and I've been in touch with his mother, but she has (10)never learnt anything about him. Likewise, her husband has -- did not make it through the woods, and she doesn't know anything about his fate either. • Q.: Do you remember that night approximately the number of men that were taken from the Zinc Factory by (15)Bosnian Serb soldiers?
• A.: Well, I couldn't tell you the exact number,
but the people were being taken away throughout the
night. In my opinion, the Serb soldiers -- well, some
of the Serb soldiers were also dressed in UNPROFOR
(20)uniforms. They would come with flashlights, they would
mix with the crowd of people, and whenever they spot a
male person there, they would take him away and the
person would not be seen after that.
That night the situation was terribly
(25)chaotic. Every time they came to take a man away,
• Q.: Now, you say that you thought at the time that Serb soldiers were wearing UNPROFOR uniforms. How did you come to that conclusion?
• A.: It was because of their faces. I had spent
(15)three years in Srebrenica and I used to run into
UNPROFOR soldiers, and their faces were telling us
something. But those soldiers were able to speak our
language, and not a single UNPROFOR soldier would ever
use our language to communicate with us. They didn't
(20)speak the local language. And then of course there
were the smiles on their faces whenever something
happened, whenever we would ask them about a particular
individual, they would say that they didn't know. We
wanted to know what would happen to the people -- to
(25)the men whose families were screaming, but they would
(5) • Q.: Before we get to Thursday morning, Mrs. Malagic, do you recall anything else of significance that happened that night in respect of the men who were in the Zinc Factory with you? • A.: On that night, I don't know what time but it (10)was past midnight, in the central hall of the former Zinc Factory, a man was found. Apparently he had hanged himself. There was a relative of his who was there and he used to work in the factory before the war. Probably after he had seen what was happening, (15)but those were only our assumptions, he committed suicide; he hanged himself. Then at that time his elder brother left, he went to him with several other people, they took him down. I had personally seen him hanging. And on the (20)following morning, he was buried there. They simply threw some earth over his body, just outside the compound, in the direction of the woods. They just couldn't leave him lying there.
• Q.: Mrs. Malagic, do you recall the name of that
(25)man?
• Q.: During that time, Mrs. Malagic, did you hear (5)of any other men hanging themselves in this similar fashion? • A.: Yes. A next-door neighbour of mine, she had a house in the vicinity of the factory. They were going home to get some food and she told me that on the (10)way she had seen two other persons, two of our neighbours who had hanged themselves, Kiram Smajic and Fehim Hasanovic. I didn't see them, but their families told us what had happened. • Q.: Let us now move to the morning of the 13th of (15)July of 1995, and if first of all you could explain to the Judges the atmosphere that existed in and around where you were that morning.
• A.: In the compound of the factory the atmosphere
was difficult. There were lots of women there with
(20)their children. They were completely confused.
Everybody wanted to leave the area as soon as possible,
to reach the gate or the barricade, as it was referred
to, by UNPROFOR. They simply wanted to leave the
compound in Potocari because they believed that as soon
(25)as they reached the UNPROFOR base and enter the
• Q.: Mrs. Malagic, if I can just interrupt you
(25)there, before we move to the final phase of your
• A.: Miladin, Miladin Jokic. He had a light blue (5)shirt on. It's a kind of uniform that was formerly used by the police. This is what the police used to wear before the war. It was light blue or greyish. He wasn't wearing any hat. He held his hand onto -- he held onto his belt. He was simply observing, not (10)saying anything. He didn't talk to us and he didn't make any comment whatsoever. • Q.: Now, the other two gentlemen that you mentioned were Stanko Rakic and Petko Milovanovic. • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Do you recall how they were dressed? • A.: They were wearing civilian clothing. I cannot remember exactly, I cannot give you a precise description, but they were wearing civilian clothes. Stanko was wearing civilian trousers, as he did most of (20)the time. I cannot tell you the exact colour, but it was a civilian type of clothing. • Q.: And these three men that you mentioned, were they carrying weapons?
• A.: Stanko Rakic and Petko Milovanovic, well, we
(25)couldn't see anything. They did not have rifles,
(5) • Q.: Now, if you can recall the other Serb soldiers that you saw in and around the Zinc Factory at that time, and indeed while you were in the line waiting for the bus, do you recall the names of any of those individuals? (10) • A.: Yes. There were a number of Serb soldiers there, including some very young people wearing camouflage uniforms, which made me conclude that they were perhaps regular soldiers, because they were all very young lads. (15)As regards to people I knew, acquaintances of mine or neighbours of mine, I saw in passing Zoran Spajic, for example. He was wearing a camouflage suit as well. I saw him while I was still at the compound of the Zinc Factory. He was accompanied by a man whom (20)I didn't know, and at one point he said, "See, Brala, how it was easy for me to liberate my village," and his village could actually be seen from the compound of the Zinc Factory. It was very close.
• Q.: Just again on this point, do you recall any
(25)other names of your neighbours, your former Serb
• A.: No, I do not. • Q.: Now, you mentioned in your evidence -- excuse (5)me. Now, just to return for one moment to the man Zoran Spajic. Do you recall from what village he was from? • A.: Yes. It is a village next to Potocari, one can see it, not far away, called Studenac, municipality (10)of Srebrenica. • Q.: Do you recall approximately how old he was at the time? • A.: That Zoran, I've known him since elementary school, he could be a year or two younger than I. He (15)is a peer of one of my brothers, they went to school together, so he could have been born in 1961 or something. I'm not quite sure. I know he was slightly younger than I, but I'm not really sure. • Q.: Thank you, Mrs. Malagic. Now, you mentioned (20)also in your testimony that you saw an individual called Ilija Petrovic from Spat. Can you describe his appearance to the Judges, please?
• A.: Yes. That day -- I knew him from before, but
that day he was bare-headed and he stood up in that
(25)vehicle, when the vehicle stopped. He was grey-haired,
• Q.: Does he have any children? (5) • A.: He had -- well, at least I knew that he had two sons; one of them was called Sreten Petrovic, and I knew him from work. He was with a supervising body in the copper and zinc mine. For the first four years of my work there, he was a supervisor there, and he would (10)come there when we dealt with payrolls, when we prepared the salaries and everything else. So that son I know very well indeed. About the second son, I don't know. I was told that he was with the military but I never met (15)him. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I think it might be an appropriate time, if you wish, to take a break. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley, I think we ought to respect the fatigue of (20)the witness. But I think we could make it 15 minutes, quarter of an hour. --- Recess taken at 2.02 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.20 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Are you
(25)feeling better now, Mrs. Malagic?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. You will now continue to answer questions that Mr. Cayley will have for you. (5) MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Mrs. Malagic, one further question on Zoran Spajic. Do you recall his father's name? • A.: I'm not quite sure, because there were two brothers. It's either Radoje or Blagoje Spajic. One (10)of them is his father, but I'm not really quite sure. They both work at the Saser [phoen] mine, and I knew them both but I'm not really quite sure which one is his father because, as I said, there were two brothers. (15) • Q.: Prior to the break, you said that just before you got on the buses a number of men were separated, including your father-in-law. Could you just name, for the purposes of our record, the names of all of the men that you saw separated? (20)
• A.: Yes, I can. Yes. My father-in-law was
separated then, Omer Malagic; then my brother-in-law,
Ramiz Cakar; a relative, the brother of the one that I
told you hanged himself in the Zinc Factory, and his
name was Ismet Smajlovic; then Sadik Hasanovic, also a
(25)close relative; Sakib Suljagic; Salih Rizvanovic, this
• Q.: Mrs. Malagic, that answer is fine. Now, I know that all of the families in Srebrenica are in (10)contact with each other. Have any of these men ever been seen since this day, to your knowledge? • A.: Never. Never. Any one of them. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Exhibit 5/17. (15) • Q.: Now, Mrs. Malagic, I've shown you this photograph previously. Do you recognise this building? • A.: I do. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what you know about this building? (20)
• A.: Well, before the war this was the building,
that is, the compound of an electrical distribution
company, and two families used to live there; they
worked for the company. And there it is to the left,
as you go to Bratunac, and buses were leaving in front
(25)of that building, and to that house they were taking
• Q.: Now, Mrs. Malagic, after you got on the bus with your youngest son, I think you proceeded towards Kladanj, and if you could very briefly tell the Judges (10)about that journey.
• A.: There was a long column of buses. We had to
wait until all the buses were full before we all
started off, and then we headed towards Bratunac.
There were a number of buses, army trucks, all sorts of
(15)buses, buses from different companies; that is,
companies with their headquarters in Serbia; Raketa
from Titovozica, Lasta Belgrade, the 7th of July Sabac,
Strela from Valjevo
[phoen], and many other busing
companies.
(20)And we headed towards Bratunac. I had to
stand in the bus because it was filled to capacity.
Through Bratunac we were followed by the
neighbouring -- the people who lived in these buildings
just followed us with their eyes. Some of them lifted
(25)three fingers; some of them threw stones at us. But
(20) • Q.: Mrs. Malagic, if I could interrupt you at this point, we're finishing for the day.
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I only have a few
more questions to ask the witness, but you may feel
that it's an appropriate time to actually end for the
(25)day.
MR. CAYLEY: We're almost near the end of the narrative of her account, and I believe about ten (5)minutes it would take to finish her evidence today. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. It would be preferable then to adjourn for the day, I think. Mrs. Malagic, I'm really sorry that we have (10)to interrupt your narrative, but we shall be resuming tomorrow. I only hope that the night you will have to spend here will not be like the ones that you experienced before. You are now under the protection of the Tribunal. So you will be back tomorrow at half (15)past nine. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Cayley. Until tomorrow, then, 9.30. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.34 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, (20)the 4th day of April, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
