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(1)Monday, 10th April 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, technicians; good morning, interpreters. I can see that they are there. Good morning to our assistants, (10)representatives of the Registrar. Good morning, counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for Defence. Good morning, General Krstic. Good morning, Witness J. Have you had a good rest? (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I have, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did you have a nice weekend here in The Hague? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, it was (20)good. Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Let me just
remind you, Witness, that you are still under oath, and
you will continue answering questions that will be put
to you by Mr. Cayley, whom you know already.
(25)Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.
WITNESS: WITNESS J [Resumed] • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: [Cont'd] (5) • Q.: Good morning, Witness J. • A.: Good morning. • Q.: Now, Witness J, I'm just going to refresh your memory as to where we were on Friday and what you said to the Judges -- (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: -- so that I can give you the point in time which we reached in your testimony. Now, you explained to the Judges that on the 12th of July of 1995 you found yourself in a meadow, in (15)a place called Lolici. Do you recall that? • A.: No, we were not there on the 12th, we were in Lolici on the 13th. And on the 12th we were still in Jaglici. • Q.: Yes, you're quite right, Witness. Thank you (20)for correcting me. And I think you explained to the Judges that the Bosnian Serb soldiers searched you for money; do you recall that? • A.: Yes, they did.
• Q.: And I think you also said to the Judges that
(25)you heard someone whisper in front of you that there
• A.: Yes. Yes, I do. • Q.: I think we got to a point in time when you (5)explained that water was brought to you and a man in front of you complained that he had not had any water, and then a soldier beat him and then shot him. • A.: Yes, and he killed him. The soldier killed the civilian who had asked for water. He said that (10)somebody had had water two times already and that he hadn't had any water so far, so two soldiers kicked him; one kicked him on the left side of his head, the other on the right side, and he started bleeding from his mouth. So one of them then grabbed him by the neck (15)and the other took him as well, and they dragged him away some six metres and they shot him, and he remained there, lying dead. • Q.: Now, I think the next thing that happened to you is some Bosnian Serb soldiers recognised a Muslim (20)police officer amongst you; do you recall that?
• A.: Yes, I recall that. They recognised a
policeman who was a neighbour of mine, who used to work
in Vlasenica during peacetime. So they pointed their
finger at him and one of them called him out. He
(25)addressed him by his last name and he told him, "Come
• Q.: Now, Witness, these three men, they were taken away by Bosnian Serb soldiers. • A.: Yes, the soldiers, and ever since then we (20)haven't heard of them. JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. He said they were taken to the house where the wounded were. Who was wounded?
• A.: Above the house, behind the house where the
(25)wounded were.
• A.: The wounded were in the house, and the three brothers were taken above the house, to the right-hand (5)side, and I haven't heard of them ever since. MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Witness, were there Muslim wounded in the house to which the three brothers were taken? • A.: Yes, there were wounded in the house. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour Judge Riad, does that answer your question? JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Thank you very much. MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Now, Witness, there was a road that ran in (15)front of the meadow where you were sitting. Do you recall -- • A.: Yes, an asphalt road. • Q.: Do you recall at any time seeing buses or trucks on that road? (20) • A.: Both buses and trucks were passing and they were travelling from Potocari towards Milici. They were transporting civilians from Potocari. • Q.: Did you see the people on those buses and trucks? (25)
• A.: Yes, there were people, including women and
• Q.: Did you recognise them as your people? • A.: I couldn't recognise anyone. I wasn't really watching. I kept my head down because I kept thinking (5)only about my fate. • Q.: Now, while you were in Lolici, I think the Bosnian Serb soldiers asked for 30 volunteers from the men. Do you recall that? • A.: Yes, I recall that. They came to us and they (10)said that they needed about 30 young men, aged approximately 25. So 30 of them came out and they boarded a truck. They gave them some shovels and the truck left. I don't know what happened to them. I don't know where they were taken, but any trace of them (15)was lost. • Q.: I think there came a time when a VRS officer came to the meadow, do you remember that, and gave assurances that everything would be all right.
• A.: First they searched us, looking for money,
(20)asking for money. And there was one person whom they
addressed as Madzarevic, and Madzarevic -- people were
from Visnjica. One of them had blonde hair and a
ponytail, and he had some kind of black bandanna on his
head. So they searched us and they took six marks from
(25)me and -- 600 marks and some necklaces that belonged to
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Thank you. Now, you then said 30 minutes later you were instructed to -- • A.: Between 20 and 30 minutes later. • Q.: -- you were instructed to make a column for 4 by 4. Can you tell the Judges once you formed that (10)column where you went?
• A.: I didn't know the area. When I -- after I
had come out with the person who had been with me in
the warehouse, he told me that we were somewhere near
Kravica. They brought us to a warehouse and both sides
(15)of the column, there would be a Serb soldiers every six
metres armed with automatic rifles. They had
ammunition belts across their chests, and they were
marching us a warehouse where a bus was parked just
outside the warehouse. And I entered the warehouse
(20)through the second door, not the first one.
So the warehouse was completely full, and I
found a seat in one of the corners of the warehouse.
And the soldier who was standing at the right side of
the warehouse, he cursed at me and he told me to sit
(25)down. And I told him that I wanted to stand, to lean
• Q.: Witness, before we move to the next part of your testimony. (5) MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4, please. • Q.: The column of men that you described to the Judges, do you recall how long that column was? • A.: According to my estimate, because I could see (10)it when we turned around the curve, I was somewhere in the middle of the column. I think that the column was between 400 and 500 metres long. I couldn't tell the exact number, but this is according to my estimate. Because we were all terrified. We didn't know what was (15)going to happen to us. • Q.: I understand that, Witness. When you entered the warehouse, how full was it with Muslim men. Do you recall? • A.: The warehouse was completely full. If you (20)had thrown a lighter or a match inside, it would have stayed on somebody's shoulder or in somebody's lap, it couldn't have fallen on the ground.
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could first of
all put the photograph in front of the witness and let
(25)the witness look at it.
• A.: This is the first door, the first entrance and this is the second one [indicates] And this is where I entered through the second one, and this is (5)where I got out, through this door. The truck, the excavator was there when I got out the night between Thursday and Friday. • Q.: Witness, if you could stop for a moment. MR. CAYLEY: And Mr. Usher, if you could (10)place the photograph on to the ELMO. • Q.: Witness, what I want you to do now, I don't want you to speak, I just want you to point to the door in the warehouse through which you entered, and you can use the pointer. (15) MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could give the witness the pointer.
• A.: It is through this door that I entered • Q.: Witness, you'll need to point on the (20)photograph. Can you see which door? • A.: This door here [indicates] • Q.: If you could keep the pointer on that door.
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could help
the witness.
(25)Let the record show that the witness is
(5) • Q.: And that's the warehouse, is it, Witness, which you entered? • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. Usher. • Q.: Witness, if you could explain to the Judges (10)what you recall happened next?
• A.: In the warehouse, when we got in, when the
last person entered through the same door where I had
entered, he didn't have a place to sit down, so he
remained standing. And he was kicked by a Serb soldier
(15)in the back. And the soldier told him -- he cursed at
him and he told him to sit down. And this man turned
around and he said, "I have no room to sit down." And
then there was a burst of gunfire that mowed him down.
And all of a sudden there was a lot of shooting in the
(20)warehouse, and we didn't know where it was coming
from.
There were rifles, grenades, bursts of
gunfire and it was -- it got so dark in the warehouse
that we couldn't see anything. People started to
(25)scream, to shout, crying for help. And then there
• Q.: Witness, at this point I want to ask you a few questions about what happened in the warehouse. I know that you're now talking about your escape from the warehouse. So if you could just listen (20)to a few questions that I have about the warehouse. Now, you said in your evidence that when the shooting subsided, you went and hid. You reached an outside gate, a reception booth. Do you recall that? • A.: In the warehouse. (25)
• Q.: In the warehouse. Do you recall that?
• Q.: No. I want you to think about when you were actually in the warehouse, and I think you survived by (5)hiding in a reception booth. • A.: Yes. Yes. Yes. • Q.: You were in a sort of an office -- • A.: It was a kind of reception booth, yes, rather like that, a small hut. (10) • Q.: And it was inside the warehouse. • A.: Yes, it was. Next to the warehouse, attached to the warehouse. • Q.: Was it inside the warehouse building or was it outside, completely outside the warehouse? (15) • A.: From the warehouse I entered that reception booth. It was all under one roof, but it was separate from the warehouse where the dead were. But there were some dead there too, inside the warehouse where I was. • Q.: Now, in the reception booth, you covered (20)yourself with a dead body; is that right? • A.: A body, yes. • Q.: And do you recall how long you lay under that dead body?
• A.: I lay there for 24 hours, in the warehouse,
(25)under a dead body. I was brought to the warehouse on a
• Q.: Could you see any of the concrete floor around you, or were there bodies covering the whole (5)floor? • A.: No where could you stand on the concrete floor without stepping on a dead body. The dead bodies had covered the entire concrete. • Q.: And your clothes, did you have blood on your (10)clothes? • A.: I brought my sweater to Zivinice, which was bloodstained, when this Muskic from Cerska, when he was killed at Baljkovica. And there were people who saw how bloodstained my sweater was. I couldn't throw it (15)away because it was cold at night, but it stank to me, never mind other people, but still I had to put it on again. And I reached Zepa with it, and from Zepa, with that sweater, I got to Zivinice. • Q.: Now, you mentioned that when you walked out (20)of the factory, you saw an excavator; do you recall that?
• A.: I do. When we went out, I heard someone say
that they were collecting the dead and loading them
onto this truck. And when they were washing the
(25)asphalt, it was covered in blood, so they brought the
• Q.: Was there a time when you feared that you (5)would be loaded alive onto a truck with all of these bodies? • A.: What normal person would not be afraid? I kept thinking, why didn't I get killed, or I might get loaded onto the truck alive. (10) • Q.: Did you hear the excavator loading bodies? Did you hear the engines of the excavator loading bodies? • A.: Of course I heard it loading, only I didn't know what it was until they said that the excavator (15)should park. • Q.: Now, I think you've already explained to the Judges that there came a time when you escaped from out of the warehouse and a Serb soldier saw you as you were crossing the road; do you recall that? (20)
• A.: We weren't crossing the road. I reached the
road; he was to the right of the asphalt road, I was on
the left-hand side when he stopped me. I lay down.
The third time he yelled "Get up," I jumped up, I ran
towards the river, the warehouse was left behind me to
(25)the left, and there wasn't a shot fired behind me. I
• Q.: Witness, when you say that "he" yelled at you and "he" said get up, are you referring to the Bosnian (5)Serb soldier? • A.: I imagine it was a soldier. Why he didn't shoot, whether he thought it was one of them -- I believe he must have thought it was one of them, because they were 100 per cent sure that there was not (10)a living soul left in the warehouse. • Q.: Now, the next part of your evidence you simply need to answer my questions yes or no. I think you eventually managed to get to the town of Zepa on the 26th of July, with some of your (15)colleagues; is that right?
• A.: But for five days I was in Podbrdze and then
I reached Zepa. This person new Podbrdze well, the one
who escaped with me. For five days he led me around
Podbrdze. If it hadn't been for him, I would have
(20)never got out. He knew the ground; he knew every
village. And every night we tried to cross the asphalt
road but they were controlling it all night and all
day.
So during the night we would go into the
(25)woods and they would cry out, "Come on, balija, come
• Q.: Witness, I realise that the trip that you (5)made to Zepa was very difficult and very frightening, but I would just like you to simply confirm a number of points to the Judges by simply answering yes or no. Otherwise, I think we're going to be here a very long time, and I know you want to go home to Bosnia (10)tomorrow. So simply answer yes or no. Do you understand? • A.: Why should I say yes or no to your questions? • Q.: Did you arrive in Zepa on the 26th of July. (15) • A.: On the 26th of July, I arrived in Zepa, about 3.00 in the afternoon. • Q.: And then I think, on the 29th of July, Zepa fell, you -- • A.: On the 29th, Zepa fell. (20)
• Q.: You left Zepa and you spent a long time --
Witness, listen to my question and simply answer yes or
no to the question.
I think you left Zepa on the 29th of July and
you spent over 40 days wandering in Bosnian Serb
(25)territory, and then you eventually made your way to the
• A.: Yes. Yes. Yes. • Q.: Thank you, Witness. (5) MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further questions for the witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness J, you are now going to answer questions that Mr. Petrusic, the Defence counsel, is going to put to (10)you. Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours, my learned friends opposite. (15) • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:
• Q.: Good morning, Witness. I shall do my best,
in the course of this examination, not to take you back
too much to your experiences, terrible experiences, and
as a wise man, I hope we will understand one another
(20)and be able to cooperate well.
Before I begin with my questions, I should
like to raise a purely technical matter so as to
facilitate the work of the interpreters and all of us
here present, and that is that when I put a question to
(25)you, as we speak the same language, could you wait a
• A.: I will. • Q.: Witness J, at the beginning of your testimony, you said that the assembly of Muslim men was (5)held in Jaglici. • A.: Yes. • Q.: And only able-bodied men attended. • A.: There were men; there were boys of 15 to 17 years of age. (10) • Q.: Did anyone of the military leaders of Srebrenica give you an order to gather at Jaglici? • A.: We were informed by couriers that Srebrenica was to fall. On that day, I spent the day collecting hay. The couriers came, "Srebrenica has fallen. The (15)old men, women, and children are going to Potocari and the others to the woods." The assembly was held at Jaglici, so we rallied there on the 11th, in the evening. • Q.: If we can call this an order to go into the (20)woods, was it accepted by all the men who had rallied there? • A.: Of course it was accepted to go towards Tuzla and be what may. • Q.: There were no opposite opinions? (25)
• A.: I was not able to notice any. We were
• Q.: Do you perhaps know, or did you perhaps hear from men who went through all this with you that there (5)was a conflict in Jaglici between two different currents of members of the 28th Division? • A.: Between whom and whom, do you mean? • Q.: That there were two groups. One group was in favour of Potocari and the other was in favour of (10)making a breakthrough. • A.: That was above Ravne Njive. Those who had to go to Potocari went to Potocari, and those who went into the woods went towards Jaglici. At Ravne Njive they separated from their families, who went to (15)Potocari, and we went towards Jaglici. • Q.: Yes, I understand that you separated from your families. But when you rallied at Jaglici, were there any incidents there, and even weapons being used by various commanders? (20) • A.: At Jaglici there were no incidents while I was there. • Q.: Thank you, Witness J. Buljim Brdo was within the enclave, wasn't it? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And access to it was not open to Serb
• A.: We crossed their lines. I didn't see anyone there, on their lines. I saw their bunkers and trenches very well, but I didn't see any soldiers, (5)until we reached a macadam road below Buljim. When we got there, the column was stopped. Some asked, "What are we waiting for?" And they said that the column had been broken up and then the shooting started. • Q.: So at Buljim, where their front line was, (10)there was no one. • A.: Whether they had moved away and hid, I don't know. But anyway, I didn't see anyone at Buljim. I just saw the bunkers and the trenches but no soldiers, no one alive. No persons. (15) • Q.: Witness J, at the beginning of your testimony on Friday, if my memory serves me, you said that when searching you, the Serb soldiers took 100 German marks.
• A.: I gave 100 German marks involuntarily. When
(20)I wandered to the asphalt, there were two of them
standing there, they searched our pockets, our belts.
They told us to put our hands behind our heads and
said, "Give us your money." I had 100 marks here in my
pocket and I gave them the 100 marks. But I had some
(25)more in the lining of my jacket, and they found this,
• Q.: You said that the column, when it was formed four by four, that according to your estimate, it was 400 to 500 metres long. (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Who accompanied it? • A.: It was accompanied or escorted by Serb soldiers. • Q.: Did you notice anything in particular about (10)the way it was escorted? • A.: No, I didn't notice anything, except when we got close to Kravica, I saw an UNPROFOR personnel carrier. Who was on it, I don't know. Whether it was the Serbs or UNPROFOR. But in any event they didn't do (15)anything. We passed by it. • Q.: At the front of that column, was there a soldier with a dog? • A.: Yes, he had a dog and he had a 53 or an 84 rifle. I'm not sure because he was quite a way from (20)me. • Q.: You mean a light machine-gun, don't you, an M-53 or M-54 or M-84? • A.: Yes. Yes.
• Q.: Witness J, when you entered this warehouse, a
(25)picture of which is on the ELMO, could you tell us the
• A.: In my estimate, it seemed to me between 40 and 50 metres long and maybe 15 metres wide. (5) • Q.: So 40 to 50 metres long? • A.: Yes. • Q.: You said that the Serb soldiers entered. As far as I understood your testimony, they opened the door and fired. (10) • A.: They fired through the door and they threw grenades through the windows and used rifle grenades, and all sorts of things. It was really a disaster. I don't know what kind of a nation they can be to kill people like that. Let everyone live as they will. (15) • Q.: Did you say they were using Zoljas? • A.: They used anything at all, whatever they could get hold of. • Q.: Witness J, I assure you that it is not my intention to revive those terrible memories for you, (20)but I have to, so could you explain. You were a soldier? • A.: I was.
• Q.: A Zolja is a deadly weapon or ammunition that
destroys man, personnel and causes burning in a closed
(25)area?
• Q.: Yes, but I'm just asking you whether what I'm (5)saying is correct? • A.: What I heard firing was not just automatic weapons. • Q.: Witness J, could you explain why, in fact, you went into the woods? (10) • A.: I went into the woods. I had to go somewhere to save my life, as anyone else would do to get a hold of free territory. I already had occasion to see since 1992 what was done in the places that fell before Srebrenica. There was burning and killing regardless (15)of whether people were young or old. They hit cows and calves. My daughter was watching the cattle. One of them was wounded. Why is he shooting my daughter if I am on the front line? She is innocent. (20) • Q.: Witness J, do you know that from the other -- the Muslim side, the same things were done?
• A.: Yes. What did we have, and what did they
have? They were sitting on the -- on Rogac, like a
gentleman, whether he wants to shoot Zepa or I don't
(25)know what he could do. What about us? We started
• Q.: Do you know that in the period of spring, summer, autumn, winter of 1992 to 1993, that tens of villages and dozens of villagers were killed of Serb ethnicity? (10) • A.: We weren't the ones to start the war. We were attacked. We had to defend ourselves. That has been proven. They first attacked Slovenia and then Croatia and then Bosnia-Herzegovina and now they are attacking Kosovo, and now they want Sandzak too. It is (15)an aggressor.
• Q.: Witness J, my question was focussed on the
municipality of Srebrenica and the spring, summer,
autumn of 1992 and the beginning of winter 1993
inclusive -- until the arrival of the UN mission or
(20)rather the formation of a protected zone.
When it was protected, why did it let such a
disaster happen? That is my question. Do you know
that in that area and in that period, dozens of Serb
villages were burnt down and that hundreds of civilians
(25)were killed?
• Q.: And these acts that were committed in that time and the area that we are referring to, did they have the same aim in mind? • A.: What do you mean? (10) • Q.: If the Serbs wanted to destroy the Muslims. • A.: Did we Muslims attack the Serbs or did the Serbs attack Muslims? Who attacked whom? • Q.: I don't want to take any more time. I'm just asking this witness to answer my question. Did it (15)happen or did it not? • A.: As they attacked us, we had to defend ourselves. That is number one. Only if we had the equipment they had, we wouldn't have acted in that way. We defended ourselves with hunting rifles and (20)devices. • Q.: Did you have infantry weapons? • A.: I only had a hunting rifle throughout the war, and I brought it to Jaglici. • Q.: Did you have an armed army, military unit? (25)
• A.: Who would arm them if somebody bought a
• Q.: So you are claiming that there were no infantry weapons or automatic rifles or machine-guns mortars? (5) • A.: In our local community, there wasn't a single light machine-gun. We may have had eight carbines and hunting rifles. And perhaps somebody prior to the war may have purchased an automatic rifle. That's all we had. (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, Your Honours, I have no more questions. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, very much, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Cayley, any re-examination? (15) MR. CAYLEY: No. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court:
JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness J. I'll
(20)have to call you J and not to call you by your name.
We do appreciate your coming here to testify,
and we fully realise how painful it is for you.
I'll not prolong your ordeal, but we would
like to see more clearly some of the events you
(25)mentioned in a few questions.
• A.: From the 17th of April, 1992 until 1996. (5) JUDGE RIAD: And what was your grade? • A.: I didn't have any. I simply went to the line, I was there. I was a member of the civil -- before I was a member of the civil protection service, I worked in the logistics department and it was like (10)that until 1996 when I was demobilised. JUDGE RIAD: But you said that on the 11th of July, 1995, you were a farmer in the village in this Srebrenica enclave. Was that right? • A.: Yes. I had been working on my land all my (15)life. This was my source of income. JUDGE RIAD: Now, we go to the warehouse. I'm sorry if I have to evoke your memory, and the memory because there is some kind of -- it doesn't look very clear to me what happened there. (20)You said the warehouse was so full that a match would not fall on the ground, it would fall on the head of people. And then during these events -- • A.: Yes.
JUDGE RIAD: Apparently nobody was left alive
(25)after they were killed, I mean how were they killed. I
• A.: Take the example of the men who left the warehouse with me. He had been hit with shrapnel all over his body, on his legs. I wasn't wounded at all. (10)So he managed to reach Baljkovica and he was killed, that's where he died. But I had not been wounded. I was just lucky. It was my fate, that I survived. When we were going to Zepa there were four of us in a column. Actually, there were nine of us. I (15)was the fourth one in the column, and the one behind stepped on a mine. And the one who was the seventh in the column also stepped on a mine and lost two legs. Afterwards, when they went back to the area to look for the bodies, look for the bones, they (20)managed to find those bodies as they were clearing up the road.
JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that -- when you
were answering the Defence counsel, you mentioned that
the Serbs shot people young and old as well as animals,
(25)as well as the cat, I suppose, you mentioned --
JUDGE RIAD: -- why did they have to collect people in the warehouse. They can shoot them everywhere. Did they shoot people wherever they found (5)them, and whether they are; men, women? • A.: While I was walking around in Pobude, I saw a number of dead bodies in brooks and rivers. They just wanted to get rid of people. They didn't pay attention to whether somebody was young or old. They just wanted (10)to destroy them. JUDGE RIAD: What happened to your daughter?
• A.: My daughter was watching after cattle in a
field. There was another girl with her from a
neighbouring village, and shelling took place and one
(15)of my daughters was killed and the other one was
wounded.
The girl who was from the neighbouring
village was also wounded. She didn't manage to reach
Srebrenica alive, but the other one spent 17 days in
(20)the hospital and she survived.
One of my oxen was killed, a cow was also
killed in that shelling. Everything was destroyed. I
have lost a number of relatives and cousins and people
who could have helped me, but today I have to help
(25)their children, and it's very difficult for me to help
JUDGE RIAD: We are very happy that you have survived. • A.: Yes, I was lucky. Yes, that's what I keep (5)telling myself. But what's it worth now? My life has been damaged, my health. When I have to sit for a long time and then when I have to stand up, it's very difficult for me to stand up on my right leg from rheumatism. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Well, I think that will pass with time. You're still a young man. • A.: If I were allowed to go back to my land, yes, but they wouldn't let me go back. And lots of criminals are still at large and the world is simply (15)watching, and the world could have helped us. JUDGE RIAD: The world is listening very carefully to what you are saying, so be fully aware of that. Now, just my last question: Those people who (20)were in this warehouse, all of them, were they soldiers, were they military people, or were they civilians?
• A.: They were civilians, most of them. Most of
them were very young children, elderly people. There
(25)were people of 60 years of age or more. They didn't
JUDGE RIAD: You mean they collected them from the woods? (5) • A.: Who collected them? They were capturing them in the woods, and then they took them to Lolici, and after they had been gathered in Lolici, from there they were taken to Kravica. JUDGE RIAD: That's the answer I wanted. (10)Thank you so much, and I wish you luck. THE WITNESS: [Int.] You're welcome. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Riad. (15)Judge Wald.
JUDGE WALD: Witness J, you told us that when
Srebrenica fell, a courier came to tell people, and it
had been agreed upon that the men would go through the
woods, and the women and children and others would go
(20)on to Potocari.
Now, had that kind of agreement been arrived
at by the leaders of the Muslim community in
Srebrenica, or was it, as the Defence counsel
suggested, an order from the members of the 28th
(25)Brigade or the Muslim army?
JUDGE WALD: Who is the "they" that told you that? What do you mean by "they"? • A.: Well, probably the United Nations who were protecting Srebrenica, they probably said that (10)Srebrenica had fallen, that the enclave had fallen, and then our people conveyed the message to us, our superiors. JUDGE WALD: "Superiors" meaning your superiors in the Bosnian army or your leaders in the (15)community? • A.: Probably those who represented the municipality, the municipal authorities. They told the military and the civilians that Srebrenica had fallen and that we should leave. (20) JUDGE WALD: Okay. At the time that you left, were you still a member of the Bosnian army? Even though you were farming your land, you were still in the Bosnian army when you left to go to the woods?
• A.: Yes, I was a member of the civilian defence
(25)when I left, and then after about -- I spent about
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. When you were going through the woods and you met your first and second ambushes that you told us about, was the first (5)firing by the Serb armies, or did, in any case, the men in the woods initiate the fire? • A.: It mostly came from the left side of the hill. We could hear someone shouting, "What are you waiting for?" and then they cursed at us and at that (10)moment shooting started. Lots of people remained there, lots of wounded and dead. But nobody paid attention to anybody else. JUDGE WALD: Did some of the people in the column that was marching towards Tuzla, did they return (15)the fire? When they were shot at, did they shoot back? • A.: Nobody returned fire. JUDGE WALD: Nobody returned fired. • A.: Nobody even thought of returning fire -- JUDGE WALD: Okay. (20) • A.: -- because we were surrounded.
JUDGE WALD: Now, my next question deals with
when General Mladic came. I want to make sure I have
the dates right. General Mladic, I think you said, but
you can tell me if I'm wrong, he came on the 13th and
(25)assured the people gathered there in the field that you
• A.: On the 13th. (5) JUDGE WALD: Right. And then on the 14th, the shooting occurred in the warehouse; is that right? • A.: On the 14th was the shooting. JUDGE WALD: So that was the day after General Mladic -- (10) • A.: General Mladic arrived on Thursday, in Lolici, and on Thursday we were brought to the warehouse. The shooting started on Thursday, around 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. And on Friday, that is, on the 14th, I spent the whole day in the warehouse. (15)On the night between Friday and Saturday, I left the warehouse. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, in the warehouse, I think you told Judge Riad, in answer to one of his questions, that there were a lot of men collected from (20)the column, from the woods, who had either surrendered or been captured. To the best of your knowledge -- to the best of your -- could I --
• A.: Columns of people were brought in from the
woods. We didn't get there altogether. People kept
(25)arriving in groups, because we had surrendered up in
JUDGE WALD: But to your knowledge, to the best of your knowledge, were all the people in the (5)warehouse people who had either been captured or surrendered in the woods? None of them were people who had stayed in Potocari and were bused out of Potocari. Is that right? • A.: No. Nobody from Potocari was there. Just (10)people who had gone to the woods, they were there in the warehouse. JUDGE WALD: All right. • A.: What happened in other places, I don't know. I just know what happened when we were surrounded at (15)Kamenica. I don't know what happened to other people. Whether they had surrendered or whether they had been captured, I don't know. I just know what happened where I was. JUDGE WALD: Now, my last question is: You (20)said that you got back to Zepa on September 26th. Now, when you got back there, was Zepa still under siege? That was before its surrender on the 29th. Was it under assault and being besieged by the Serbian forces when you got there? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: It wasn't on the 29th. Zepa fell on the 29th of July, not September. (5) JUDGE WALD: Okay. I see. So Zepa had fallen already in July. • A.: Yes, in July, on the 29th of July. And it was on the 26th that I reached Zepa. JUDGE WALD: Of September. (10) • A.: In September I left for Tuzla. It was on the 9th of September that I left for Tuzla. JUDGE WALD: Just to clarify it once and for all, when did you get to Zepa? When did you reach Zepa? (15) • A.: I reached Zepa on the 26th of July, around 3.00 in the afternoon. JUDGE WALD: Okay. So my question, then, still is: Was Zepa under siege, or had it already surrendered by the time you got there? (20) • A.: No. No, it had not surrendered yet on the 26th of the July. The last convoy left Zepa on the 26th.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. So do you know how long
Zepa had been under military siege by the time you got
(25)there?
JUDGE WALD: No, but when had it begun? Do you know when the siege, the military siege, of Zepa had begun? (5) • A.: It began, I mean the attack on Zepa, as soon as Srebrenica fell. JUDGE WALD: So that would have been around July 10th or 11th. Okay. Thank you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] You're (10)welcome. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness J, let me turn the situation a little bit. You said that the fate had it so that you survived. Let me try to tell you something. You are here with us, you have (15)told us a story, and you have a story to tell to the world so that these terrible things could be avoided, independent of who is responsible for them. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, very much. I'm in favour of that as (20)well.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, I'm
very glad to hear that we share the same opinion,
Witness J. Thank you very much for coming here to
testify. We hope that you will continue to be witness
(25)of these terrible events, and I hope that by doing so
THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, of course, Your Honour. (5)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Cayley,
I don't think we have any exhibits to take care of.
Mr. Petrusic, I don't think that there's
anything that we should settle in that respect.
Could the usher please show the witness out
(10)of the courtroom. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, what is next, or Mr. Cayley? MR. CAYLEY: Sorry. You said "Mr. Harmon," (15)so I thought my colleague would answer. We do have another witness, Mr. President, yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Any protective measures? MR. CAYLEY: He will be known by a pseudonym, (20)and he will have the same protection as this last witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So the conditions are the same as for this witness. Mr. Petrusic. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] We agree to
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. For the public, let me just say that it will (5)be a public session. Mr. Cayley, you may sit down. Witness J, please do not move. We will leave the courtroom and you will leave the courtroom after that. (10)For now, we will have a 20-minute break, after which we will resume the hearing. --- Recess taken at 10.54 a.m.
--- On resuming at 11.18 a.m. (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good
morning. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: Good morning. Yes, I can. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness, (20)would you please read the solemn declaration that the usher will give you. THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (25)
WITNESS: WITNESS K
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, you may be seated now. Mr. Dubuisson. Mr. Dubuisson is going to (5)show you a piece of paper with your name written on it. Could you please have a look at the piece of paper and tell us by saying simply yes or no if this is, indeed, your name. THE WITNESS: Yes. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So this is your name, Witness. THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well then, Witness, you will first answer questions that (15)will be put to you by Mr. Cayley who is on your right-hand side. Let me just thank you for coming to the International Tribunal. Mr. Cayley, you have the floor. (20) MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley:
• Q.: Witness, for your protection, I will be
addressing you as Witness K throughout your evidence.
Witness, you are Bosnian by nationality; is
(25)that correct?
• Q.: And you were born a Muslim by faith; is that correct? • A.: Yes. Yes, that's correct. (5) • Q.: In July of 1995, you were inside the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? • A.: Yes, in 1995, I was in Srebrenica. • Q.: And at the time you were a member of the Bosnian army inside the Srebrenica enclave; is that (10)correct? • A.: Yes. I was a member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. • Q.: Inside the Srebrenica enclave, can you describe to the Judges what kind of army the Bosnian (15)army was?
• A.: There was an army, but we didn't have much
weaponry. We started to defend ourselves in the war
with hunting rifles. And in doing so, we would seize
weapons from Bosnian Serbs from time to time, and we
(20)would use those weapons to defend ourselves.
The soldiers that were in Srebrenica, I mean
the army that was in Srebrenica, was not a disciplined
army. The United Nations were there, and we were not
allowed to hold our lines because they had their
(25)checkpoints.
• A.: No. No. I never put on a uniform. I was never issued with a uniform. • Q.: What weapon were you armed with in July of (5)1995? • A.: I didn't have any weapon. They were in warehouses, what weapons there were. • Q.: What was the name of the unit to which you belonged, the name of the Bosnian army unit to which (10)you belonged? • A.: 282nd Brigade. • Q.: I want you now to think back to the 11th of July of 1995. And I think on that day, you set off towards Jaglici; is that right? (15) • A.: Yes. Yes, that's right. • Q.: I think you then started to make your way in a very large column towards Tuzla and the free territory; is that right? • A.: Yes, that's right. (20)
• Q.:
[redacted],
• A.:
[redacted] (25)
MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
• Q.: Now, Witness, I know that the journey through the woods was a very difficult one and that there was shooting and there was explosions, and a large number (5)of people were killed, but I would like you to move forward in time to the point where you, and a large group of other men, surrendered to the Bosnian Serbs. MR. CAYLEY: But, first of all, if the exhibit could be placed on the ELMO. (10) • Q.: And if you could indicate to the Judges what is represented by the dotted line on that exhibit. • A.: This is the village of Jaglici [indicates] and this is where we crossed the line. There used to be a UN checkpoint here, and to our right where we (15)crossed the line that was held by Bosnian Serbs. This is where we crossed the line [indicates] There were many people in the column one by one. We had set off through the woods in the direction of Tuzla. I will show you the route we (20)took. This is the way where we went [indicates], and this is just approximately. And we surrendered to the Bosnian Serbs at Konjevic Polje at this place here. This is where we crossed the asphalt road, and we were assembled here on a meadow. (25)
• Q.: And let the record show that the witness has
(15)
• A.: Yes, I can.
After we crossed the asphalt road, they
searched us, and we were moving in a column one by
one. They were taking away our money, our gold,
watches; everything we had that was of any value.
(20)We had backpacks with food, but none of us
had any weapons. Those who had weapons had thrown them
away in the woods. We didn't dare surrender with
weapons.
So we gathered in a meadow, and there were
(25)quite a few of us. I was in the first column, and I
• Q.: Witness, that's a good point for you to pause. I just have a number of questions to ask you, to clarify what you've already said. Now, you said in your evidence that when you (10)arrived at the meadow that "they searched us" and "they were standing around". You mean by that Bosnian Serb soldiers? • A.: Yes, I mean the Bosnian Serb soldiers. They searched us. They took everything of value, money, (15)gold, watches, valuables, and backpacks, and they threw them all into a pile. They would search each of the soldiers to make sure there were no weapons. And we had to sit in the meadow; we were surrounded to make sure that we wouldn't disperse. (20) • Q.: Now, these Bosnian Serb soldiers, how were they dressed?
• A.: They had camouflage uniforms on. Some of
them had helmets, some had caps, some had nothing on
their heads, like me, for instance. They had
(25)bulletproof jackets; some were camouflage and some were
• Q.: Then you described another unit that were wearing black uniforms and you said that that unit was respected by the other soldiers. How long after you (5)arrived in the meadow did the soldiers that were dressed in black arrive? • A.: A couple of hours later, something like that. That's my impression, very approximately. • Q.: Now, the soldier who shot the man next to the (10)tank, how was he dressed? • A.: As I said, he took an automatic rifle from the man who was playing around with the knife and he killed this man of ours, a Muslim. He had a black, short-sleeved T-shirt on him and the trousers were (15)camouflage; he had new boots. So that as far as I could have noticed, their own soldiers held them in high esteem. They were valued more than ordinary soldiers. • Q.: How, to the best of your memory, were all of (20)the Muslim men who were sitting in that meadow dressed? • A.: They were all in civilian clothes. I didn't notice anyone wearing a camouflage uniform or a part of a military uniform. They were all in civilian clothes. (25)
• Q.: Were there people amongst you that were
• A.: There were. There were wounded. • Q.: After a couple of hours, what was the state of these wounded? (5) • A.: Some of those wounded, because it was extremely hot, as I just said, they sprayed us with water from a tank on three occasions, they cooled us off so we wouldn't faint, and these wounded men, I saw quite a number of them faint. And whoever was next to (10)them would pour water over them. • Q.: Now, after the arrival of the second group of Muslim men, can you estimate how many men there were in the meadow? • A.: You mean in all? (15) • Q.: Approximately how many men there were in the meadow. • A.: Perhaps around 3.500 to 4.000, that's my estimate, maybe 3.000, 3.500, 4.000. I don't know exactly. I didn't count them. (20) • Q.: After the men in the black uniform, the Bosnian Serb soldiers in the black uniforms had arrived, what is the next significant event that you remember?
• A.: We were all facing the road in the meadow and
(25)watching to see what would happen to us. We were all
(15) • Q.: Did General Mladic say anything to you while he was in the meadow? • A.: He addressed us. I cannot remember the exact words he used. He addressed us, saying that nothing wrong would happen, not to be afraid, that they were (20)good, that not a hair on a head would be hurt, that we would all be exchanged for their Serbs, that we would be evacuated to Tuzla or Kladanj, that we would all rejoin our families in safety, and that we should not worry at all. (25)
• Q.: After General Mladic left, do you recall what
• A.: After that, I don't know after how long exactly, this commander who was standing in front of us all that time with a knife in his hand, he would select (5)us, the more able-bodied amongst us, and he would say, "You, you, and you," pointing a finger at us, and we would go out and he would say that we would be exchanged for their Serbs, "who was imprisoned by your Muslims," as he said. "we're exchanging you for our (10)Serbs," that's what he said to us. And then we got to the road. Buses were waiting for us, two to three buses. I was among those who were in the bus. We were loaded, very many of us. It was so hot, it was stifling, and I noticed (15)immediately that the bus wasn't taking us towards Konjevic Polje or Kladanj, but rather that we were going in the direction of Bratunac. And then after I don't know how many minutes, it wasn't a long ride, the bus took a turning to the right and they drove us in (20)front of a warehouse of some sort. That was Kravica. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/3. If that could be placed on the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher.
• Q.: Witness, do you recognise this place? Can
(25)you just identify the location?
• Q.: If you could just wait one moment, Witness. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness -- (5) • Q.: Could you tell the Judges the name of this place, if you know? • A.: This place is called Kravica. Before the war, in peacetime, I would pass by here often, but I never noticed those warehouses then. I know that I was (10)close to Kravica. Maybe this was not the centre of Kravica that I was familiar with. I think this place is called Sandici or Kravica, between Konjevic Polje and Sandici. And so we were driven there to Kravica, to these warehouses. (15) MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8A/2. • Q.: Now, you said, Witness, in your evidence, that you thought that you were being taken to the free territory, you were taken to be exchanged. But then (20)you realised that the buses turned in the wrong direction and went to Bratunac. Could you indicate to the Judges in which direction you drove when the buses left on the map that you see in front of you?
• A.: From here towards Bratunac
[indicates] That
(25)was the direction we took.
(5) • Q.: And after you'd been told that you were to be exchanged, where did you think that you should have been going? Where should the Serbs have taken you if they were to exchange you? • A.: Towards Kladanj [indicates] In this (10)direction. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8A/2 that the witness is indicating from where the dotted line bisects the road at Konjevic Polje towards Konjevic Polje. And, in (15)fact, the direction is indicated by an arrow pointing towards Konjevic Polje. If the witness could now be shown a new exhibit which is 1/19. Mr. Registrar, on this exhibit, the witness (20)has placed his name and signed it because it was attached to a statement. So if the redacted copy to be placed on the ELMO and the copy with the signature and the name of the witness can be placed in front of the witness, that way the witness will remain protected. (25)
• Q.: Now, Witness, this, I believe, is a diagram
(5) • A.: That is correct. • Q.: Could you indicate, first of all, to the Judges, the building that you were taken into by just pointing to that building? • A.: I can [indicates] (10) MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/19 that the witness pointed to the large rectangle nearest the road between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac which is parallel to that road and has two smaller boxes beneath it. (15) • Q.: The two smaller boxes, Witness, one with the cross in it, could you inform the Judges what they are below the building to which you were taken? • A.: What do you mean below the building? Above the building? (20) • Q.: There's a box which indicates the factory into which you were taken. Below that? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: There are two small boxes, and one has a
cross inside it. Can you explain to the Judges what
(25)they represent?
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the three small rectangular boxes on this diagram, on (5)Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/19, that the witness has indicated are buses. • Q.: Now, the box with the cross inside it, what does the cross represent? • A.: This is the bus [indicates] that I was in. (10)And when they quickly ordered us to get off as quickly as we could and enter the warehouse, there's an opening here, and that is the one I went through. So they unloaded us there, and we were told to get inside as quickly as we possibly could. (15) MR. CAYLEY: And finally if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/1. And if that could be placed on the ELMO.
• Q.: Now, do you remember, Witness, yesterday I
showed you this photograph, and I indicated to you that
(20)it was aerial imagery that had been taken on the 13th
of July of 1995 at the Kravica warehouse at the time
that you were there.
The two white boxes below the warehouse, can
you tell the Judges what you told me they were
(25)yesterday when you saw this photograph?
(10) MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness, although I think it's quite clear from the transcript, identified that the two rectangular white boxes immediately in front of the warehouse are the buses which he drew on the diagram which he provided to (15)the Office of the Prosecutor. And that he confirmed that the bus on the right-hand side of the photograph is the bus from which he alighted and that is where he entered into the warehouse. MR. CAYLEY: If we could now have, I think, (20)Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4, please. • Q.: Now, Witness, what is this a photograph of? • A.: It's the warehouse that I was in. • Q.: Can you indicate the door through which you entered the warehouse? (25)
• A.: I can
[indicates]
(5) • Q.: Witness, were there any? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me, Mr. Cayley, for interrupting you. I have a small point of clarification. Can we go back to Exhibit 8/1? I think that the usher has that exhibit. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, that's the aerial photograph. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Could it be possible to ask the witness where was the door of the bus through which he got on and got off the bus. On (15)what side was it? MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Witness, if you understood that question, could you do as the President asked and indicate the door on the bus from which you alighted into the (20)factory? • A.: It was on the right-hand side. I can show you on the photograph. • Q.: Please. • A.: [Indicates] (25)
MR. CAYLEY: Although I think the point is a
(5) MR. CAYLEY: If Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4 could be placed on the ELMO again. • Q.: Now, Witness, you've just explained to the Judges that you went into the warehouse on the left-hand side. And now I have a question for you: (10)Were there Bosnian Serb soldiers in and around the warehouse? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you explain to the Judges how those soldiers were dressed? (15) • A.: I didn't know. When I entered the hangar, I didn't know that there were Bosnian Serb soldiers on guard duty around there. But when I escaped from the hangar, I jumped out of the window of the hangar, then I saw that there were guards. And I jumped out during (20)the night, and I didn't see how they were dressed. I just saw those who were in front entering the warehouse during the daytime. They had camouflage uniforms, but one of them had a blue UN helmet on his head and they had flak jackets on. (25)
• Q.: So these were Bosnian Serb soldiers that you
• A.: Yes. And who would enter inside while we could see, it was still daylight. (5) • Q.: Now, after you entered the factory, what did you do?
• A.: They shoved us into this warehouse. Where I
was, it was full of men so that I was somewhere in the
middle. I don't know exactly, as far as I could
(10)notice. They ordered us to sit down. We sat down as
we could, one next to another.
After that, I could see two younger men.
They provoked us. They demanded that they make a
confession they didn't know.
(15)After that, they brought them back to where
they were. Then they took watches off people; gold,
money, whatever people had, and they threatened us.
If somebody failed to give up his money and
money was found on him, he would be killed. And people
(20)who had anything, one by one, they went up and handed
it over. I, too, personally, had little change,
although they had taken my ring in the meadow, not my
wedding ring, though, I had that too. I said it was a
souvenir from my girlfriend, because it wasn't a
(25)wedding ring, it was a gold band. And I gave them my
(10) • Q.: Now, you said in your evidence that "they provoked us" and "they demanded that they make a confession they didn't know". Now, are you saying that Bosnian Serb soldiers demanded that Muslim men amongst you make confessions? (15)
• A.: Yes. They interrogated people, not many of
them. I saw two young men being taken out. They were
told to stand up against a wall. They shouted at
them. They asked them about some places, I don't know
which ones; I don't remember what we were interested
(20)in. But these two young men, of course, didn't know
anything about that. They were not beaten; they were
brought back to their places.
From time to time they would bring water in
buckets, in white buckets, with Jupol letters written
(25)on it, and we would then fight amongst ourselves for
(10) • Q.: Witness, how full of men, how packed was the section of the warehouse that you were in? • A.: In my estimate, there were approximately 1.000, between 1.000 and 1.500 people, roughly. I'm not sure either. Maybe less, maybe more. This is just (15)my rough estimate. This is how it seemed to me while I was there, inside, but I was in fear. • Q.: I understand that. How close was each man to the other inside the warehouse? • A.: One next to the other, shoulder by shoulder. (20) • Q.: So each man was touching the other inside the factory building. There was no -- • A.: Yes. • Q.: There was no space between all of the men inside the factory at all. (25)
• A.: No, not at all. There was no space
(5) • Q.: What was the atmosphere like in the factory at this time? How did you all feel? • A.: Terrible is all that I can say. We were in great panic, all of us. I was fearful. When we were brought there, I knew what was (10)in store for us, I knew it already. I mean, as soon as we were crowded into those buses and when I realised that we were not going towards Tuzla but Bratunac, I knew what was happening, what would happen, especially when we were brought to the warehouse. (15) • Q.: Now, you've explained to the Judges that the Bosnian Serb soldiers took your belongings, that some interrogations took place. Can you recall what happened after that?
• A.: Yes, I remember that very well. After that
(20)the night fell, it was in the evening. When we came
there, it was still daylight. I don't know what time
it was but it was getting dark.
After it became dark, some shelling started.
I heard shots and I realised that shells were falling
(25)around, and I heard a sizzling noise of shell
• Q.: Now, Witness, I know that this was a terrible
(25)scene, but as best you can, if you can explain to the
• A.: While I was inside the warehouse, they fired
(5)from all kinds of weapons. They first fired infantry
weapons, automatic rifles. Then they would stop doing
that. They would shoot for about half an hour, then
take a little rest, and then there would be a new
series of shooting. They would throw hand grenades
(10)through the windows, and grenades fell some two or
three metres away from me. I could just feel the
explosion, the detonation, and as a result of that I
was injured by small shrapnel coming from those
shells. So I got wounded, I was injured, but I felt
(15)well. I wasn't seriously injured.
People started screaming, and it was
terrible. It is hard for me to describe it. I haven't
seen anything like it in any of the horror movies that
I saw. This was far worse than any film. And this
(20)lasted all night long, with short breaks. Bosnian
Serbs would take some rest, make a short break, and
then they would resume.
They opened fire from anti-aircraft weapons
that were positioned on the asphalt road, with Zoljas
(25)as well. All I saw was some kind of lightning coming
• Q.: Witness, can you describe the scene around you as you made your way to the window? Can you describe to the Judges what was on the floor all around (5)you?
• A.:
[redacted]
• Q.: Witness, if you could pause there. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, would it be an appropriate time to take a break? (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley. Thank you very much for your attention. We will have a 20-minute break now -- I'm sorry, half an hour break, a 30-minute break, so that the witness can have some rest. (10) --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m. --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley. You may continue. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. (15) • Q.: Witness, before the break, we had got to a point in time where you were trying to make your escape from the factory, and I just want to ask one question about a point in time before that. Do you recall when you were taken from the (20)meadow to the factory at Kravica in a bus? • A.: In the afternoon? • Q.: Yes. Do you recall that? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: On the bus, were there any guards? Were
(25)there any Bosnian Serb soldiers?
• Q.: Can you describe how they were dressed? • A.: In camouflage uniforms, camouflage. • Q.: Now, you said, prior to the break, that there (5)was a container in the warehouse which you were going to use to make good your escape. Can you explain to the Judges whereabouts this container was located inside the warehouse? • A.: What do you mean? In relation to me, where I (10)was inside, or when you're looking inside from the entrance? • Q.: If you could explain where the container was in relation to the back wall of the factory. • A.: I was roughly in the middle, and if I were to (15)face the entrance that I passed through when I entered, the container was to my left, diagonally. Above the container were the windows, separated. • Q.: Can you explain to the Judges how you used this container to make your escape? (20)
• A.: When everything was quiet again, I got up and
I tried to save myself, to escape. So that I was
treading on dead people, on the wounded. I reached the
container. I looked to my right from where I had
entered the warehouse. I saw outside that they were --
(25)that there was some cigarettes lighted. All I could
MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9, please. • Q.: Was there anything covering the window that (10)you jumped through? • A.: No, it was open. It wasn't covered with anything. There were -- there was no glass in the window. It was open. MR. CAYLEY: If the exhibit could be placed (15)on the ELMO. • Q.: If you can recall, could you indicate to the Judges which window it was that you jumped through? • A.: I don't know exactly which window now. I can roughly show you. (20) • Q.: As best you can remember, Witness.
• A.: It may have been one of these two
MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9 that the witness indicated that the window that he jumped through was one -- I (5)think he was most certain about the three small windows on the back of this building, so -- this is actually the rear of the warehouse, but as this photograph appears, the witness indicated that he jumped from one of three or four small windows that can clearly be seen (10)on this photograph in the centre of the building. • Q.: Now, Witness, can you describe to the Judges what you could see around you at this point, if anything at all?
• A.: When I jumped from the window and fell to the
(15)ground, I just heard a voice from the corn field. I
didn't know that there were guards around, and that
there were guards. If I had known, I wouldn't have
dared jump. I wouldn't have had the courage, because
they would have killed me.
(20)So when I jumped and fell to the ground, I
just heard a voice saying, "There's one that just
jumped." And then when I fell to the ground, I saw in
front of me, to my right, there were two dead men lying
on the ground. Most probably, they had also tried to
(25)save their lives and escape and, unfortunately, they
• Q.: Now, you mentioned that you heard a voice, let me get this right, coming from the corn field. Can you indicate to the Judges on this (5)photograph, the corn field that you're referring to? • A.: Yes, I can [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is identifying on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9 that the piece of ground covered in snow which is (10)immediately in front of the building and which has some plants growing on it, corn, old corn growing on it is the corn field to which the witness is referring. • Q.: Now, it was summertime when you were there, it was July. Was the corn higher than is shown in this (15)photograph? • A.: Yes, of course it was much higher. And it was still green, it hadn't ripened yet, but it was very high. So if I were to stand up straight, though I didn't stand up straight, if I were to stand up (20)straight, it would be higher than me, the maize.
• Q.: Now, you said today that you saw that there
were two dead men lying on the ground and that they had
tried to save their lives, and you stated
unfortunately, they failed. Can you recall what
(25)happened to you next?
• Q.: Witness, if you could just pause there for a (10)moment. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9, which is the one I think that was on the ELMO. • Q.: If you could indicate to the Judges on this (15)photograph where you lay that night, approximately. • A.: Here [indicates] Here [indicates], perhaps half a metre from the wall, here [indicates], on the grass. To my left was the maize field. My head was turned towards the river, or rather towards Kladanj, (20)and my legs towards Bratunac, shall I put it that way. • Q.: That's very clear, Witness.
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the
witness has indicated, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/9,
that he was lying on some grass between the factory
(25)building and the cornfield, with his head facing
• Q.: Now, Witness, you said that you stayed there all night. Did anybody come and check your body during (5)the night? • A.: No, no one came. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what you recall from the next day, from the next morning, what happened to you? (10) • A.: When it dawned? • Q.: When it dawned, Witness, yes.
• A.: I was still lying there. I didn't dare move
because I was thinking and I was afraid that someone
might come to check whether I was still on that spot or
(15)whether I had escaped. So when the sun rose, I heard
yells and a noise. People were yelling and asking
whether anyone inside was left alive, in the
warehouse. Of course there were some people who were
alive. So they promised them, I heard a voice saying,
(20)the Bosnian Serbs promising and saying that the Red
Cross had come and that the first aid people had come
to take them to the hospital to treat them. And
whoever could walk and crawl out of the warehouse, they
came out. I didn't see them coming out. I didn't see
(25)them taking them out.
(20) • Q.: Witness, if you could wait there for a moment. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 116.
• Q.: Now, Witness, you and I viewed a video
(25)yesterday afternoon, which I think is Prosecutor's
MR. CAYLEY: It's a video that's in evidence. I'll give the Court a number in a moment. It's actually Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/13, the video that (5)Your Honours saw of the Kravica warehouse. • Q.: In fact, you noticed on this video that the lettering that you saw on the building is -- if the photograph could be put centrally. Could you point to the lettering, the (10)vertical lettering, that you saw when you got up on that day, in July, on the other building? • A.: Yes, of course I'll show it. They are these letters [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the (15)witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 116, a series of seven letters that are set vertically on a white building, a part of the factory complex in Kravica, and they are located just above and to the right of the door, which is just off centre in the (20)photograph. If the witness could then be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2.
• Q.: If you could just indicate on this photograph
the building on which those letters were written from
(25)which you saw Bosnian Serb soldiers entering.
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2, to (5)the part of the factory complex, the warehouse building, which is furthest to the left. It's above the road and it's the building furthest to the left, and it's perpendicular to the road that runs from the left to the right of the photograph. (10) • Q.: Now, after you'd got up, after you'd seen this lettering, what did you do next? • A.: I sort of stretched out a little while I was still lying down. • Q.: Sorry, Witness, it's just we need that (15)photograph again, and rather than have the usher bring it back. MR. CAYLEY: It's Exhibit 8/2. You can just leave that Mr. Usher. • Q.: I'm sorry to interrupt you, Witness, you said (20)that you stretched out a little. You were still lying down. What happened to you next?
• A.: Yes. As I was saying, I stretched my legs
and arms. I looked to the left through the maize. I
saw them entering again, Bosnian Serbs. It was a
(25)little way away from me. They were entering the lower
• Q.: If you could just wait there, Witness. (5) • A.: By this hangar, next to this hangar. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2 the white rectangular building which is furthest in the background of the photograph and has a striped effected (10)front, the front of the building has -- appears to have black and white stripes. • Q.: Please continue, Witness.
• A.: In the course of the night, in this building,
I will show you now
[indicates], in this building, I
(15)heard to my left, I think it was in this building, that
there must have been cows screaming, something was
squealing like pigs. I don't know what it was. To me,
it sounded like cows. There were some cries anyway and
screams.
(20)And, as I have just said, I saw those Bosnian
Serbs, two or three of them I saw. Once when I had
decided to run from the place I was lying, I saw them
entering this hangar to my left.
And then, I crawled to the left through the
(25)maize for a distance of some two or three metres, maybe
• Q.: Witness, if you could just indicate again, without speaking, the route that you took from behind the warehouse, and I'll describe it so that it's on our transcript. So if you can just indicate, with the (20)pointer, the route that you took from behind the warehouse? • A.: What do you mean? While I was crawling or while we were on the bus? • Q.: While you were crawling. (25)
• A.: I see. I'll show you. This is where I was
• Q.: Witness, if you could wait. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the route that the witness took on Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/2 (15)is a route that he indicated immediately behind the main factory building which is in the centre of the photograph, immediately behind that building to its extreme right end, and then up diagonally into an area that appears to have bushes and trees where he (20)indicated there was a brook. • Q.: Now, Witness, you said that you went into a brook where you washed yourself and you drank some water. Do you recall that? • A.: Yes, of course I recall that. (25)
• Q.: How long did you spend in that small river?
• Q.: And after you left that little brook, where did you go after that? (5)
• A.: I'll show you on the picture. At this corner
here
[indicates], this is where I drank some water,
where I washed myself at the brook.
So I moved maybe five or ten metres upwards
and then I turned back. And then I turned towards the
(10)warehouse and I could still hear the sound of the
excavator collecting dead bodies from the warehouse.
I was looking for a bottle or a container of
some kind so that I could take some water for me for
later on to refresh myself, but I couldn't find
(15)anything.
So I crossed the brook and I entered another
cornfield. This is the other cornfield
[indicates]
And I walked through the cornfield, through one line of
the corns, and I reached a small path which cannot be
(20)seen on the picture, and this is where I entered the
woods.
Again, I felt very weak. I was about to
faint. And this is where I found an empty can. I
continued for about 20 to 30 metres along that path and
(25)I came up to a brook again.
• Q.: Witness, you said you found an empty can and you continued for 20 to 30 metres along a path and you came to a brook again. (10)Now, I know from you and I having spoken that you had quite a difficult journey after this, but I want to cut matters short. I think I'm right in saying that you eventually found yourself in the town of Zepa on, I think, the 26th of July of 1995; is that correct? (15) • A.: I don't know exactly what date it was. I know only that I was in Zepa, that's true. But it was before the fall of Zepa at any rate. • Q.: Do you know when Zepa fell?
• A.: I don't know, because I had left before the
(20)town fell, and the Bosnian Serbs had already entered
the area. Maybe it was two, three, four, maybe five
days later, and I stayed a while in the hospital in
Zepa.
So when we went down to Zepa, the 12 of us
(25)who were wounded, we decided to join a convoy with the
• Q.: While you were in Zepa, were you registered by the Red Cross? (5) • A.: Yes. When I came to Zepa, together with a colleague of mine, a friend of mine whose name was Senad. I forgot his last name. He's from Voljavica. MR. CAYLEY: I want to show you your Red Cross certificate which is Exhibit 118. (10)Mr. Usher don't put this on the ELMO because it has the witness' name on it, but if copies of it could be given to the witness and Judges. • Q.: Witness, don't read anything from this certificate, but can you just confirm that this is the (15)Red Cross certificate confirming that you were originally registered in Zepa and then subsequently visited at the Rogatica military camp?
• A.: Yes, that is correct. I was registered
together with everybody else. There were, I believe,
(20)12 of us who had been wounded.
We entered the UN Compound where the Ukranian
Battalion was stationed, and this is where the Red
Cross people came and registered us.
The Bosnian Serbs, the military, had already
(25)entered the town of Zepa, and they were walking around
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Cayley, I'm sorry to interrupt you at this point because the (15)text has already disappeared from the screen. The exhibit that we saw was 5/18 and the transcript on page 91 which is no longer here stated 6/18. I would just like to make sure that it was 5/18. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I (20)know that after the proceedings, the stenographers actually go through the recorded -- the record and actually correct all of these numbers. So it will be done.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well,
(25)then, because I didn't say 5/18 or 6/18. I said --
MR. CAYLEY: Well, Mr. President, you have success at the end. You have 118 on the transcript. • Q.: Witness, in summary, and if you could just (10)answer yes or no, the Defence may have some more detailed questions than this, but am I right in saying that you were promised that you would be taken to free territory and, in fact, you found yourself in the Bosnian Serb prison camp at Rogatica. That's where the (15)Bosnian Serbs actually took you? • A.: Yes, that's correct. • Q.: And I think you stayed in that camp until the 15th of January, 1996, and you were then taken to Kula prison and exchanged at Sarajevo airport on the 19th of (20)January of 1996; is that right? • A.: Yes, that is correct.
• Q.: If I could just briefly show you Prosecutor's
Exhibit 117, which, again, Mr. Usher, is a document
that's not to go on the ELMO.
• A.: Yes, these are my medical records.
• Q.:
[redacted] • A.: Yes, that's right.
• Q.:
[redacted] (15) • A.: [redacted] • Q.: Now, I know you suffered some trauma as a result of these events, and that's shown in your medical records. How do you feel now? • A.: I don't feel very well. That's all I can (20)tell you. But all in all it's okay. I cannot complain. • Q.: Do you still have any night-time recollection of the events at Kravica? Do you still have dreams or nightmares about these events? (25)
• A.: Yes, of course I do. I have dreams. I wake
• Q.: Witness, thank you very much, indeed, for your patience. I have no further questions for you. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I can now offer (10)the witness for cross-examination. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. I think we should have a break now because one member of the Chamber has an urgent obligation. (15)I don't know how much time you will need, Mr. Petrusic, for your cross-examination. Could you tell us that now? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, of course it will depend on the answers given by the (20)witness, but we hope to finish before the end of the day. However, this is not a 100 per cent reliable estimate, but we will do our best to complete the cross-examination today.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] But in any
(25)case we have to have a break. We will have a 15-minute
--- Recess taken at 1.47 p.m. (5) --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] As you can see, Judge Fouad Riad was unable to rejoin us, and in line with Rule 15 bis we're going to continue with the testimony of this witness. (10)Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. Witness, you are now going to answer questions put to you by Counsel Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. (15) • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: Good afternoon, Witness K. • A.: Good afternoon. • Q.: At the very beginning, I should like to ask you, where did you start out from in the direction of (20)Jaglici, on the 11th of July, I think it was? • A.: We headed towards Tuzla. • Q.: But where from? You yourself. • A.: From Srebrenica.
• Q.: A group of able-bodied men rallied in
(25)Jaglici, did they not?
• Q.: So could you please wait a couple of seconds after my question, since we speak the same language, for the benefit of the interpreters. Just three (5)seconds or so. So this group went on along which road? • A.: I'm afraid I didn't understand your question. • Q.: When you got together in Jaglici, you headed (10)towards which position, along which path, which route? • A.: We headed towards Tuzla, through the woods. • Q.: You said in the course of your testimony today that you were not armed. • A.: I beg your pardon? (15) • Q.: During the examination-in-chief, you said that you were unarmed. • A.: When? Where? • Q.: I mean Jaglici and on from there. • A.: Yes. The majority were not armed, of the (20)men, of course. • Q.: In your statement to the Agency for Investigation and Documentation, AID, on the 16th of February, 1996, you said, on page 2 --
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Could I ask
(25)the usher for his assistance, please. Could the
THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] It will be Exhibit D14. (5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: So on page 2, the first sentence: "After a short lull, the Chetniks opened fire at us again, demanding that we surrender our weapons, which we did not agree to." (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Therefore, this was an armed group. • A.: No, they didn't see that. But they called on all of us, whoever had any weapons, to surrender them, or if they had any, to surrender them. They thought (15)that we were all armed and we were not. Very few men had rifles. • Q.: Witness K, you said that you didn't agree to surrender your weapons, so my question is: Was yours an armed group of men or not? (20) • A.: I don't understand. Do you mean a small group or all the men who were heading towards Tuzla? • Q.: The group that you were in.
• A.: The group I was in? They called on all of us
to surrender, anyone who had any weapons. All men who
(25)were armed were called on by them to throw down their
(5) • Q.: You're talking about the group you were in, and you said that you didn't accept their offer, shall we call it that. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Therefore, that group did have weapons. (10) • A.: We did, but we didn't surrender together with our weapons. The moment that I decided to go and surrender, together with a group of men, none of us had any weapons because people threw away their weapons in the woods. They didn't dare surrender with their (15)weapons on them, of course. • Q.: So let us make this quite clear. The moment that you were called upon, did you and your group have weapons on you? • A.: The moment they called on us, I did not have (20)a weapon just then. • Q.: So you are claiming that the statement you made to AID is not correct. • A.: What do you mean? • Q.: Regarding this part that we're referring to. (25)
• A.: I don't understand that.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. Petrusic, what is your response? What is your
(25)reaction to this?
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic, but I think that the witness has already explained, in a way. But if the witness has answered, maybe you should move forward and go on to another question. (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Very well, Mr. President. • Q.: Thank you, Witness K. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I should like to ask the usher to be kind enough to put on the ELMO (20)Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/4. Could you please move it to the right a little, the photograph to the right, to the right. Thank you.
• Q.: In relation to the left part of the
photograph, where we see these two pillars, below the
(25)sign saying "Kravica", can the witness tell us where
• A.: Yes, I'll show you on the photograph. • Q.: The front part of the bus, where did it stop? • A.: Here [indicates], further to the left, off (5)the photograph. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] So for the record, it can be noted that it is to the left of the area shown on the photograph, underneath the first window. (10) • Q.: You disembarked from the bus, and can you then explain where you went to? • A.: On the photograph? You want me to show you on the photograph? • Q.: Describe it, and then we'll see for the (15)record. • A.: I got off the bus. I entered the first entrance there. Just in front of this pillar where it says "Kravica". To the left of the first pillar. • Q.: Did you pass in front of the bus? (20) • A.: What do you mean in front? How? • Q.: The bus, the bus was at a standstill. It was stopped. You got off the bus. Did you have to pass in front of the bus, the driver's side?
• A.: Yes, I did. I passed around the front of the
(25)bus, and we were quickly pushed into the warehouse.
• A.: What do you mean left, which side? (5) • Q.: On the left of the photograph. You see the part of the warehouse which is closed in. • A.: I can't see it being closed in. I can only see the outside wall. • Q.: In relation to the outside wall that you can (10)see, and in relation to the front part with the two supporting pillars, is there any partition between these two premises? • A.: Between the two pillars? I don't understand. (15) • Q.: Between the open part of the warehouse and the part where we can only see the outside wall that is walled in; is there a partition there? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And is there a door on that partitioning (20)partition? • A.: I didn't see it. There was some kind of a fence, like a fence that was broken or something, as far as I could see.
• Q.: Did that go the whole length of the
(25)building? That fence, did it go along the whole
• A.: I didn't notice that. I don't know. I was unable to register whether it did or not. • Q.: Could you tell us how long, how high that (5)fence was? • A.: How could I know? I didn't measure it. • Q.: Did it look like a door? • A.: No, it was a fence, like any fence. Like this external fence that is shown on the photograph, (10)rather like that, something like that. Now how high it was, I don't know. • Q.: Were you placed behind that fence to the left? • A.: What do you mean? (15) • Q.: I mean the part of the building that we only see the outside wall of? • A.: Yes, to the left. When we went inside and sat down, I was looking in front. To my right was the entrance where I went through, and in front of me was (20)the fence and the wall, the partition, some kind of a partition. • Q.: Perhaps it will be easier if we look at Exhibit 8/9.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] So as not to
(25)waste time, Mr. President, I can give the usher a copy
• Q.: Witness K, in relation to these two windows through which we can see the panorama behind the warehouse, were you in this right-hand wing of this (5)warehouse? • A.: Yes, I'll show it to you [indicates] In this area, in this part [indicates] • Q.: Does this include the part where you encircled two open windows, those that you can see (10)through? • A.: I don't know that. • Q.: Was your whole group in that part of the building? • A.: What do you mean the "whole group"? (15) • Q.: All of you who came from Lolici. And according to your estimate, there were 1.000 to 1.500. Were they all accommodated there? • A.: All the people who came in the buses, as far as I saw, were unloaded and placed in those hangars. (20)When I entered the warehouse, I didn't see outside whether others may have, perhaps, been taken to another warehouse because we were very much afraid. • Q.: You said that there was a fence, Witness K? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Were you all on one side of that fence?
• Q.: Let me -- delete that, please. (5)I know that you were fearful, that you probably didn't notice many details, but could you roughly tell us the size of the premise that you were in? • A.: Roughly, let me try. It would be, perhaps, (10)the length of the warehouse where I was, it seemed to me to be maybe about 30 metres long, 40, maybe less. That's how it looked to me. And the width was maybe 15 metres, I don't know, maybe less, maybe more. That is very roughly my estimation. I don't know exactly. (15) • Q.: These two young men who were taken out of the warehouse allegedly to assist in collecting the wounded, did they come back to the warehouse? • A.: Yes, they did. • Q.: Did you ask them where they went, in fact? (20) • A.: No, it never occurred to me. • Q.: Not one of those from your group? • A.: No, I didn't hear them. • Q.: Did they, themselves, say anything?
• A.: No, we just kept quiet to see what was going
(25)to happen. We were all in a panic and great fear.
• A.: No. • Q.: Witness K, as you said, you were crammed into that warehouse very close to one another so that, as (5)you put it, you couldn't move left or right an inch? • A.: Not quite like that. You misunderstood me, sir. It's not true that we really couldn't budge. But I said, and I am saying, that we were crammed full so if you would try to get up and go out, you couldn't (10)stand on the ground, on the concrete. You'd have to lean against someone else for a person to try and get -- walk out, if somebody wanted to get out. • Q.: It was obviously very crowded there, but when the Serb soldiers entered and started shooting, you (15)said that you threw yourself on the ground? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you explain to me where did you throw yourself to in view of the fact that you were so crowded? (20) • A.: I threw myself on the ground. The Serb soldier who opened fire lay on -- I lay on my stomach, and I remained lying like that on the ground.
• Q.: So when the soldier opened fire. So in view
of the fact that it was so crowded, as you said a
(25)moment ago, now, suddenly, you have enough space to
• A.: Let me explain in greater detail, sir. I see that it is not clear to you, so I want to make sure you understand me properly. (5)The Serb soldier, when he opened fire, after that, a couple of others, maybe five or six of them, I don't know how many, I don't know exactly. When they opened fire, there was panic, and people jumped to their feet, one on top of another. We saw what was (10)happening and they were going to kill all of us. So when the people jumped up off the ground, in view of the terrible fear that was widespread, I threw myself on the ground, though there wasn't too much space, but I sort of stuck to the ground without (15)getting up. And after that, people started falling on top of me; dead, wounded. • Q.: Witness K, before you climbed the container to get to the window and jump out, did you cross this fence? (20)
• A.: No, I didn't cross the fence. The container
was below the window to my left or, rather, as we can
see on the photograph. It was to the left of me. So I
went diagonally towards the window and towards that
container. I climbed on the container so that I
(25)stepped on to the window sill and then I jumped out. I
• Q.: How long did you remain beneath this window, below the window? • A.: For the whole night. (5) • Q.: And after that, as you have already explained, you went to the creek, to the small river, rivulet. And there were Serb soldiers everywhere around you? • A.: What do you mean "everywhere"? (10) • Q.: Well, in the immediate vicinity, in relation to this small river. • A.: Of course I didn't know that they were there. If I had known that they were there, that they had surrounded the warehouse, I wouldn't have dared (15)jump out because they would have killed me. I thought they weren't there. I thought that only those outside the entrance of the hangar were there next to the road. When I jumped out and fell to the ground, I heard a voice from the maize saying, "There's one (20)jumping out," and then I realised that there were guards there, Serb army guards. • Q.: The machine that you describe as a dredger or excavator which was collecting the bodies, you didn't see it? (25)
• A.: No, I didn't.
• A.: You mean -- I didn't see it, but I heard the noise. This was in the same direction that I jumped. (5) • Q.: In relation to this photograph? • A.: Well, that was my impression. • Q.: Could you show us on this photograph on the ELMO. • A.: Yes, I can. You want me to show you where (10)this excavator was? Is that what you mean? • Q.: Yes. Exactly. • A.: Here [indicates] MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For the record, the witness is showing the back part of the (15)warehouse, viewed from the direction of Bratunac, Kravica. Yes, Bratunac, Kravica. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, you mean the right part of the photograph, right-hand side of the photograph? (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes. I was trying to describe the direction of the road, but I quite agree with you that it is the right-hand side of the photograph. • Q.: After that you reached Zepa. (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: I don't know the exact date when I arrived. • Q.: Immediately after your arrival in Zepa, did representatives of the International Red Cross give you (5)an ID card? • A.: No, not straight away. I was in hospital for four or five days. • Q.: You were promised evacuation. • A.: Yes, we were promised that by the Bosnian (10)Serbs, and the Red Cross made this promise. • Q.: And then you went to prison in Rogatica.
• A.: No. Together with 12 wounded and some
elderly men and women and children from Zepa, we headed
towards Kladanj. We had a rest at Boksanica. There
(15)was the Ukrainian checkpoint. Night fell while we were
there. And I heard there that Ratko Mladic had come,
General of the Bosnian Serb army, with a helicopter. I
saw the helicopter. And the commander of Rogatica came
with an escort, asking where we came from, but they
(20)didn't hurt anyone.
After that we continued towards Kladanj. I
don't know the places but I heard them mention the name
Luka. We got close to Kladanj and then the army of
Republika Srpska stopped the buses. Of course, they
(25)had lists from the Red Cross that had registered us,
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, excuse me for interrupting you, but I (10)would like to know whether you intend to finish today or whether we should leave the cross-examination for tomorrow. Let's try and finish with the witness so as not to make him come tomorrow. But I would like to know whether you need a lot more time or not. (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I will bear in mind your suggestion, Mr. President. I'm almost done. A couple of minutes more. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In that case, Mr. Petrusic, would you make your questions (20)precise and concrete? Then the witness will answer in a similar fashion. Thank you. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]
• Q.: Witness K, in your statement given to an
investigator of this Tribunal, on the 26th of November,
(25)1998, you stated that you had been taken off the bus
• A.: That I was taken off the bus? • Q.: "I assume that I had been taken off the bus and that I was not evacuated because I was wearing (5)military trousers." • A.: Which location do you have in mind? Where? • Q.: I'm reading from your statement, the statement that you gave on the 26th of November, 1998. • A.: Sir, I asked you about the location where I (10)was taken off, where I was separated, whether it was in Zepa or at Luka. • Q.: If we disregard the exact location, because you're not referring to it in your statement, I should like to know whether this is, indeed, what you stated. (15)
• A.: While I was in hospital in Zepa, while I was
wounded, I found a pair of multicoloured trousers of
Russian make, and that was the only clothing that I
could get hold of. It was the bottom part of the
clothing. I couldn't walk around naked. I also had a
(20)pair of cowboy boots on. This is what I had found
somewhere in the forest after I had fled the execution
site in Kravica. Because I was barefoot, I had to
throw away my shoes at one point, and then in one
discarded backpack, I found a pair of cowboy boots, and
(25)this is how I reached Zepa, wearing those boots.
THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you too. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Cayley? No. Thank you. Judge Wald. (10) • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE WALD: Just a very few questions, Witness K. You say you were a member of the Bosnian army at the time that you joined the column moving towards (15)Tuzla. Were all the men in that column members of the Bosnian army, and if not, what proportion would you say were not? • A.: I couldn't give you the exact number. Of course, I was a member of the army. (20) JUDGE WALD: Would you say the majority of people in the column were members of the Bosnian army or the majority were not and were just civilians? • A.: The majority were civilians.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second question is:
(25)Why did you surrender? I mean, what were the
• A.: Bosnian Serbs had encircled us from all sides. I had already spent one night there, and when (5)it dawned, we reached a meadow just above Konjevic Polje -- I don't know the name of the place but it was near the wood -- and I continued like that for about 100 metres, in the direction of the asphalt road, and this is where I found a large group of people who were (10)unarmed, had no weapons. They were simply standing there. They were confused; they didn't know where to go, what to do, whether to surrender or not. And the Bosnian Serb army had completely surrounded us, we had no where to go, and this is how we decided to (15)surrender. JUDGE WALD: Okay. At the point that you escaped from the Kravica warehouse by jumping out of the window, you told us that you didn't know that there were soldiers on the outside or you might not have (20)jumped. But were there soldiers guarding the prisoners on the inside of the warehouse, and if so, roughly how many?
• A.: Yes, occasionally they would enter the
warehouse. Five or six of them would always be
(25)inside. Sometimes only three would remain; sometimes
JUDGE WALD: How, then, do you think you were able to get over to the container, get on top of the (5)container and jump out without one of them seeing you? • A.: Well, they were inside before they opened fire on us. This was before. But after that, when everything became quiet and the smoke dispersed, then one by one they would enter and throw in hand grenades, (10)or they would finish off those who had remained alive, wounded. So when they thought that everybody had been killed, there was a longer lull in shooting, and at that point I decided to jump through the window to save myself. (15) JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: When you were in Zepa, you mentioned that they were beginning to evacuate, or they were evacuating not only the wounded but some women and children and others. Were you in a position to see some of that evacuation (20)taking place? I mean, were you in a position so that you saw some of the civilians in Zepa being evacuated? • A.: Yes, of course, I was there.
JUDGE WALD: So if that's right, are you able
to tell us whether or not, in that evacuation, the men
(25)were separated from the women and children, and the
• A.: I didn't see men being separated. The able-bodied men had gone to the mountain, those who had (5)weapons, and only civilians remained together with us, the wounded. The wounded were separated and taken to the Ukrainian Battalion compound. But I could observe the evacuation of people from Zepa, and they included women, children, and the elderly. (10) JUDGE WALD: But there was no formal process that you observed of separating the men out from the women and children for evacuation, of those that were there? • A.: No, I didn't observe that. (15) JUDGE WALD: And the Red Cross was observing the evacuation; right? • A.: Yes. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you, Witness K. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you, Your (20)Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Cayley and Mr. Petrusic, what is the status of our exhibits? I can see that there are several of them.
MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. If I could
(25)apply for admission into evidence of the following:
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes.
(25)Mr. Petrusic, any objections as regards the
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No, we do not object to the exhibits tendered by the Prosecutor. We would also like to tender D14 into evidence. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Cayley, any objection to this one, D14? No. Thank you very much. Therefore, Exhibit D14, Prosecutor's 8A/2, 118, 119, and 117 will be admitted into evidence, (10)including two exhibits admitted under seal. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. These exhibits have been admitted. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson. (15)Mr. Cayley, any remarks? MR. CAYLEY: It's my fault, actually, Mr. President, because I gave you the exhibits out of order. There's also Exhibit 116, which I actually mentioned last on the list but which you didn't mention (20)when you were admitting these exhibits into evidence.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Maybe
you didn't get the interpretation, but I remember
mentioning it. Exhibit 116, is that the one? Yes.
Very well, then. Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley.
(25)Before we adjourn for the day, I should like
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.53 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, (10)the 11th day of April, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
