|
Content
/ Colormap • Page 2693 • {1/125}
(1)Wednesday, 12th April 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court] [The accused entered court] (5) --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Are the interpreters here? Yes. I am glad that you are still well and kicking. Good morning to the Prosecution and the (10)Defence, Mr. Krstic, the Court reporters, and the witness, who is here too. Good morning. Have you had a good rest, Witness? THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. Good morning. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And are you (15)feeling well? THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So we're going to resume our hearing with your testimony, and it is Mr. McCloskey who is going to continue with the (20)questions. You have the floor, sir. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. WITNESS: WITNESS L [Resumed] • EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: [Cont'd]
• Q.: Witness L, yesterday we left off where you
(25)came to the execution area with a small group of fellow
(5) • A.: When the men had been killed, I heard a group getting together who called each other by name, and they were talking. I then recognised one of them called Gojko Simic, who used to work with me in the same company for at least 15 years. (10) • Q.: Now, let me ask you about that. You say you saw -- or you say, excuse me, you heard men speaking. Were those -- how do you know they weren't Muslim men that had survived? • A.: I know because they called each other by (15)name. • Q.: And what names did you hear them call each other? • A.: I heard Gojko, Vojo, Risto, and they called another one by nickname, but I haven't remembered that (20)nickname. • Q.: And how long did you have a chance to hear these men speaking to each other? • A.: For about five minutes.
• Q.: And were you able to hear the voice of the
(25)person -- of the various people clearly?
• Q.: How was it that you were able to recognise (5)Gojko's voice? • A.: Because I knew him for many years, and his voice was typical. He didn't have a very clear way of expressing himself. There was a lisp in his voice. • Q.: How did you know him from? (10) • A.: I knew him because we worked in the same company and we also come from the same municipality. • Q.: Do you know where he was from, what village? • A.: The village of Orahovac, Zvornik municipality, and Grbovci and Orahovac belong to the (15)same local community, I think. • Q.: Do you know how many years ago you worked with him in the company in Belgrade? • A.: I think from 1977 until 1992. • Q.: What was your connection with him at the (20)company? Were you equal workers or what? • A.: We were both of the same occupation. We never argued. We were always on good terms with one another.
• Q.: And were you friends? Did you see each other
(25)socially?
• Q.: When was the last time you had actually seen (5)him before the war? • A.: In 1992, on the 3rd of April, when I left Belgrade. • Q.: Could you describe Gojko Simic for us? What did he look like? (10) • A.: Gojko Simic was rather like me by height, perhaps a little lower. He had more hair than me. He had two golden teeth. He was fair. MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we show the witness Exhibit 100? And could we put it on the ELMO so we can (15)point it out? THE REGISTRAR: It is a protected witness, so there could be a problem if you place the photograph on the ELMO. MR. McCLOSKEY: The people in the photographs (20)are not protected, but thank you for your --
• Q.: All right. And let me ask you the question.
Can you -- I've shown you this photograph within the
last day or two and asked you to point out Gojko
Simic. Were you able to do that when I asked you to do
(25)it?
• Q.: Again, could you point out the person that you recognise as Gojko Simic? • A.: [Indicates] (5) • Q.: Okay. Thank you. MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, that was the middle person in the bottom row. Thank you. • Q.: And prior to hearing the soldiers speaking, referring to themselves -- or referring to each other (10)as Gojko, Vojo, and Risto, did you hear the sounds of any equipment or anything besides the trucks that were dropping off victims? • A.: Yes. To the left there was a dredger, we used to call it, excavating machine, that was digging a (15)hole. • Q.: Okay. Now, as you're listening to Gojko and the others talk, could you get an idea of how many were in the group? • A.: According to my judgement, because three of (20)them were left behind when they went off to another place to kill some more, there were several of them. • Q.: Can you tell us what else you heard this small group of soldiers talking about as you were lying nearby? (25)
• A.: When they got together, close to this
• Q.: Now, were you able to see any of this, or (10)were you just hearing this? • A.: I could only discern them in the dark. I couldn't really see them, it was dark. • Q.: Is there any doubt in your mind that the voice you heard was that of Gojko Simic? (15) • A.: There is no doubt in my mind. I am 100 per cent sure. • Q.: Could you tell from the discussions that you heard who was in charge of this small group of soldiers? (20) • A.: According to what he said, the order was to collect the ammunition and to go to the meadow. So judging by that, I conclude that he was the leader. • Q.: That Gojko Simic was the leader? • A.: Yes, yes. (25)
• Q.: Now, I want to direct to you a time that you
• A.: I only heard them, I didn't see them. • Q.: Okay. And then after that there's a (10)statement that says, "Among them, I'm absolutely sure that I recognised a Serb who used to work with me. His name is Gojko Simic." Now, the term "recognised" -- • A.: I told you, I recognised him by his voice and by the name I heard called out. (15) • Q.: What happened after the discussions that the soldiers had among themselves where they talked about going over to another field? What's the next thing you recall happening?
• A.: When they left, the loader came with the
(20)lights on. The excavator had the lights on too, but
they were turned in the opposite direction. When this
loader came, it stopped next to the backhoe and the two
of them talked. I didn't hear what they said. Then
the person who was probably closest to the loader and
(25)who was still alive, he jumped off and ran into the
• Q.: Let me ask you a couple of questions if I (20)could. Can you tell me when you were first able to actually see anything? • A.: When I took the blindfold off. • Q.: When was that in relation to the events that you've described? (25)
• A.: It could have been two or three hours after
• Q.: And were you able to actually see these (5)machines that you've talked about with their lights on? • A.: The machine that came with the lights on, it arrived just before I was -- I got up and ran away whereas the excavator was probably there before I had arrived, and its lights were turned in the opposite (10)direction so that the back side of the machine was facing us. • Q.: But were you actually able to see those machines without your blindfold on when you crawled out from under the bodies? (15) • A.: Yes, yes. • Q.: The excavator you're talking about or backhoe, did that have tracks on it or wheels or what? • A.: Wheels. • Q.: Okay. Can you describe it, as best you can, (20)this thing you are calling an excavator? • A.: You mean the loader? It was yellow; because building machinery in our country were, as a rule, yellow in colour the trademark was KU 150.
• Q.: Okay. Now you've described something that
(25)was called an excavator and you've described something
• A.: Yes. • Q.: So what did the loader look like besides (5)being yellow? • A.: In front, it had the actual loader to collect the material. • Q.: That's like a big bucket that can scoop up material and load it in the back of a truck; is that (10)right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: The excavator, can you describe what the excavator looked like, how it was different from the loader? (15) • A.: The excavator has a longer fork and it is used for digging big holes in the ground. • Q.: It has a big, long arm that can bend and has a bucket in the bottom of it and usually digs by pulling it backwards; is that right? (20) • A.: Yes. It goes like this and then it turns backwards towards itself again. • Q.: You had described your narrow escape from this immediate spot. Can you go on and continue to tell us where you went? (25)
• A.: When I ran into the corn half way, I went
• Q.: Let me ask you some questions, excuse me. (5)Now, when you left that railway station, you started walking back in the original direction had you come from; is that right? • A.: No, I was going the other way because I know if I went along the rail track to the right, I would be (10)going to the same place and if I go left, I would be going in the opposite direction. • Q.: But you were generally heading in a similar direction as to where you came from but not precisely back to where you had been shot at; is that right? (15) • A.: Yes. Yes, yes. I was going back in the direction from which they had brought us. But if you cross to the other side, if you take the left tracks, you go towards Grbovci, and if you take the right-hand tracks you were going to the opposite direction. (20) • Q.: Now, when you came back to the area where this man was still dying, was it still dark out? • A.: It was. It was still dark. • Q.: Did you see any soldiers or any equipment around this one spot? (25)
• A.: No, I didn't see any equipment.
• A.: There were a lot of bodies and clothes. There was moonlight so I could see them, but I didn't (5)get closer than 20 metres away so I couldn't tell you how many there were. • Q.: Could you tell where this field was in relation to the field where you had been shot at and shot down with the others? (10) • A.: It wasn't very far, maybe 100 or 200 metres only. It was on one side of the track. • Q.: This second site that -- • A.: There was a stream nearby. • Q.: So this second site that you saw was on the (15)other side of the railroad tracks from the area that you had been shot down? • A.: Yes, yes. On the other side, yes. • Q.: This summer, did you have a chance to go back to this area with Mr. Ruez and the investigative (20)team? • A.: I did. • Q.: And the place that -- Mr. Ruez first took you to the school, didn't he? • A.: Yes, he did. (25)
• Q.: The school that he took you to, did you
• A.: I did recognise it. • Q.: Did you have a chance to go in it, into the gym? (5) • A.: I entered the gym, yes. • Q.: Was that the place Mr. Ruez took you, the school in the gym, the same place that the Serb soldiers had taken you back in July of 1995? • A.: Yes, it is the same gym and the same school. (10)Everything was the same. • Q.: Okay. Now, after Mr. Ruez took you to the school, did he take you out to some fields nearby? • A.: He did. • Q.: Did you recognise those fields that (15)Mr. Ruez took you to? • A.: Well, I did, because there's the field and the maize, and the maize was still there. Maybe this autumn somebody cut it, but the old maize is still there. (20) • Q.: What other distinctive features did you notice this summer when you went back with Mr. Ruez, that you recognised from your experience?
• A.: As I said, my assessment was that there was
this slope I had to climb to reach the rail tracks, and
(25)I recognised that too.
• A.: Yes, I did see the railway tracks. • Q.: And the site where you were shot down, was (5)that closer to the asphalt road or farther away than the other site? • A.: Further aside from the road, on the other side of the tracks. They were on the other location, on the mown meadow, which was closer to the road. (10) • Q.: And after -- let me take you back now to July of 1995. It's still dark out. You've just come across this other field of bodies. Were you able to escape into the night and later escape to the free territory? • A.: No, I didn't escape to the free territory on (15)that night. • Q.: How many days did it take you wandering through the woods until you were able to escape to the free territory? • A.: I could have reached the area within two (20)hours, if I had known, if I had known it, if I had known my way, but I kept wandering for at least ten days. • Q.: And then did you finally make it? • A.: Yes, thank God. (25)
• Q.: Were you by yourself the whole time or did
• A.: I was by myself all the time. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much. I have (5)no further questions. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Witness L, now you are going to answer questions that will be put to you by Mr. Petrusic, who (10)is representing the Defence in this case. Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours; good morning, my colleagues. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: (15) • Q.: Good morning, Witness L. Witness L, while you were living in Srebrenica, you were not engaged in the military in any way? • A.: No, I wasn't. • Q.: Were you living together with your brother? (20) • A.: Yes, we lived together; not before the war, but after the war, yes. • Q.: Your brother was in the military; he was there as a cook? • A.: Yes, he was. (25)
• Q.: Witness L, if you could please pause before
• A.: Yes, I'll do that. • Q.: Did you ever hear from your brother about a (5)possible fall of Srebrenica? • A.: No, I didn't hear anything from him. Nobody knew five or six days before it happened that it would fall. • Q.: On the 6th of July the shelling started. Did (10)people at that moment start to talk about the fall of Srebrenica? • A.: No, they did not. • Q.: So on the 11th of July you reached Susnjari? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: You said in evidence that the commanders had decided that you should go through the woods. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you tell us whether they were military commanders? (20) • A.: There were both military commanders and personnel who was working at the Srebrenica municipality. They were also some kind of commanders. • Q.: So would that include both political and military leaders of the municipality? (25)
• A.: Yes, it would.
• A.: No, they didn't say anything about that, but (5)we knew that Srebrenica had over 40.000 inhabitants, and therefore I think that there were about 15.000 able-bodied men, including young men, who didn't dare go to Potocari. • Q.: After you had spent the night between the (10)12th and the 13th of July somewhere in the woods around the area of Buljim you surrendered on the 13th of July, around 3.00 in the afternoon, to the VRS soldiers? • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: Your column, according to what you have said, (15)had about 200 people? • A.: According to my estimate, my column had about 400 people, but not everybody came with me; some people had arrived even before, and they kept coming afterwards as well. (20) • Q.: In the evening, after General Mladic had spoken to you, and before the buses and trucks had arrived, the buses that you later on boarded to go in the direction of Bratunac, how many people could have been on that meadow at that time? (25)
• A.: At least 2.000 people. The meadow was
• Q.: According to your knowledge, did everybody go (5)in the direction of Bratunac? • A.: No, not everybody did. • Q.: You were in the trailer of one of the trucks. Could you tell us how many people were put on the buses and trucks at that point in time, when you (10)sat out? • A.: No, I couldn't tell you anything about that. I didn't know how many people there were. I don't remember the figures. The moment I entered the truck, I didn't know what was happening with other people. My (15)brother had stayed behind, and I never saw him after that. • Q.: Witness L, as you were coming down the hill, going towards the road where you eventually surrendered, did you notice any vehicles? (20) • A.: We saw several artillery vehicles, two or three of them, when we reached the road. There was an APC near the place where we were, and that's all, aside from the buses and trucks that kept passing by carrying women and children to Tuzla. (25)
• Q.: Let me go back to the meadow for a second.
• A.: No. I could only see that one group of people. (5) • Q.: You saw some insignia, some patches with Republika Srpska Army letters written on it? • A.: Well, we saw one person wearing a kind of black scarf. He seemed to be in charge, and he was the one who told us that we would be exchanged. And he had (10)a white patch on his sleeve, with letters VRS, Republika Srpska Army, on it. • Q.: In addition to the letters, Armija Republika Srpska, was there anything else on that patch? • A.: I think that they had the four letters S, but (15)it was difficult for me to observe that. And also their patches seemed to be damaged. • Q.: Witness L, you testified that there were four young boys in the gymnasium. • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Do you know what happened to them? • A.: Those children were set free, because after I had reached the free territory I inquired about the release of the four young boys, and they told me that they had been released. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. I will heed your advice and I will ask the witness about it. • Q.: Witness L, you mentioned four letters S. (15)Were they written in Cyrillic or Latin alphabet? • A.: Serbs always used Cyrillic alphabet. Even their registration plates were in Cyrillic letters. And it was actually the first time that I saw registration plates in Cyrillic alphabet, which had not (20)been the case before the war.
• Q.: You mentioned a vehicle that you referred to
as tamic. It was the vehicle that was near the
gymnasium. You were put on that vehicle and taken to
the execution site. You said that it had had civilian
(25)registration plates.
(10) • Q.: So according to your observation, the plates started with Cyrillic letters ZV? • A.: No. It was something like a letter P or a similar letter to that one. At any rate, it did not have ZV letters on it. This is what I had observed (15)prior to that. And this time I could only see Cyrillic letters SC, the Serbian Sarajevo. But that was the vehicle which I had seen before that. But this one did not have a civilian licence plate. It could only have been a military or a police vehicle. (20) • Q.: I'm sorry. My intention was not to confuse you. I just wanted to ascertain that the letter on it was P. • A.: Yes, but I'm telling you that I'm not sure. All I know is that the letters were not ZV. (25)
• Q.: When you were brought to the execution site,
• A.: Probably not, because they were not (5)rotating. I could only hear shots, and I'm not sure whether those were the same soldiers. • Q.: Did they talk amongst each other? • A.: No, at that time they didn't. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, (10)if I may, I should like to go back to a particular issue. • Q.: I should like to ask the witness whether at that time he could distinguish between police and military licence plates. (15) • A.: At that time I wasn't familiar with the plates that were used by the Serbian police, but I think that they were not just either police or military. I still don't know what kind of licence plates the police had in the Federation or in Serbia, (20)and in the Federation today we have a uniform type of licence plate, and so I don't know the difference. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have concluded my cross-examination, thank you very much. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you,
MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I could ask (5)two questions back at the gym that I failed to ask the first time. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Well, if you forgot to ask those questions, then later on I will have to give Mr. Petrusic the opportunity to (10)cross-examine again. Yes, please, do ask your questions, Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: • Q.: While you were at the gym that was crowded (15)with people, did you see any of the Muslims pass out in any way? • A.: Yes, there were people passing out, mostly because they were thirsty. • Q.: And did you see what happened to those (20)people? • A.: No, nothing. Nobody helped us. But one of our people would usually go to get some water and we would ask that person to then give him some water to refresh him. (25)
• Q.: Did the Serbs provide any sort of medical
• A.: No, none, whatsoever. No help at all. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. That's all. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, do you have anything in relation to this? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I should just like to check whether I understand the witness (10)correctly. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: When these people fainted, was it -- were they allowed to get some water? • A.: Yes, but because everybody -- the place was (15)so crowded, and the water sometimes couldn't reach them and everybody asked for more water than there actually was. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. (20)Judge Riad. • QUESTIONED by the Court:
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.
Good morning Witness L. I'll just try to
understand more clearly certain things you mentioned.
(25)You mentioned that you were captured with your
• A.: No, I haven't heard anything. He went one way and I went the other and I don't know anything (5)about what happened to him. JUDGE RIAD: Since the 11th of July, 1995, he has not -- • A.: Since the 13th of July, 1995, I haven't heard of him. Since that -- from the time when we were (10)sitting together in the meadow. He was maybe 10 to 15 rows behind me sitting on that meadow. JUDGE RIAD: Did you try to make any search to find out? Did you get any news? • A.: Well, we searched for him through the Red (15)Cross. He has a wife and children, but they were unable to locate him. JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you left Srebrenica to Susnjari, you said you had with you something like 200 armed men. Was there any exchange of fire between (20)these men and between the Bosnian Serbs? • A.: At that time, no. I don't know what happened further on along the way. It was only later on that we learned that there had been an ambush, so they had remained behind and we left. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: An ambush, who made the ambush
• A.: The Serbs. JUDGE RIAD: And then, I'm just following (5)your testimony, apparently some -- when Arkan's men came and they were -- you were asked to shout or to sing, "Long live the king." Who was that king? • A.: Well, most probably the Serbian king. We don't have a king at all. And the Serbs have a king. (10)I mean, they don't have him now, but they used to. JUDGE RIAD: You don't know what they were referring to? • A.: I beg your pardon. JUDGE RIAD: You don't know which king they (15)are referring to; last century, last -- • A.: No, I don't know. Most probably -- now they don't have a king in Serbia, and there is no king in Bosnia either.
JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know. And when you
(20)were boarding the bus, you said you asked -- you
answered the Defence counsel that the badges were
damaged, you could not see their badges of the soldiers
but you could hear their voice. You being a man living
in that area, was it the Bosnian accent? Was it the
(25)Serb accent? What was the --
JUDGE RIAD: The soldiers spoke like you or (5)like the Serbs in Serbia? • A.: They spoke like us, but they have a slightly different accent. They pronounce -- they don't use the letter H every time they should, for example. JUDGE RIAD: Who doesn't use the letter "H"? (10) • A.: Well Serbs, for example. We say "hljeb" and they say "ljeb", especially people from the countryside. But those living in cities, they speak like us. JUDGE RIAD: Those living in cities like (15)Belgrade, for instance? • A.: Yes, yes, yes. There was no difference between Belgrade and places in Bosnian, but it also depended on the education. Educated people do pronounce this letter "H", uneducated people don't. (20) JUDGE RIAD: And these soldiers were educated people? • A.: Well, I don't know them. I know only this one who used to work with me as concrete reinforcer; he was a semi-skilled worker. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: I'm speaking of soldiers. At a
• A.: They were standing at the door of the gym (5)where we were. They were sort of guarding us. They would shoot from time to time in the air. They were very young people. JUDGE RIAD: They were Bosniaks? • A.: Yes, they were most probably Bosniaks, (10)Bosnian Serbs. JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you surrendered on the July 13th, you heard somebody saying, "These guys are ours." That was the translation. What was the meaning of that? (15) • A.: Well, according to my opinion, those elderly people most probably thought that if we were to be incarcerated, that then they could beat us because they didn't have any weapons in their hands. JUDGE RIAD: I mean you are their victims, (20)"These guys are ours," means they want you to be their victims. Is that what you understood? • A.: Yes, most probably. Yes. Yes, this is what I understood them to mean that they beat us physically because they didn't have any rifles. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: And also at a certain stage you
• A.: No. He said that he would kiss the person (5)who will speak. He wanted actually to discover whether anyone was alive. JUDGE RIAD: And when he kisses them, what will happen? • A.: No, no, no. You haven't understood me. He (10)wanted to see whether anyone was alive and, of course, he would kill that person. He wouldn't kiss him. JUDGE RIAD: Because there is something, you know, called the "kiss of death" if you want to save someone. So he wanted to kill them all. It was to (15)kill them completely? • A.: Yes, and they didn't want to let a single soul living. JUDGE RIAD: Did he kiss you? • A.: God forbid, he didn't. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Now, it was interesting you mentioned that a woman, a Serb woman was in camouflage and gave you water. Were there women among the Serb soldiers killing you?
• A.: That was the only woman. She was in the
(25)gymnasium from where we were taken, and I didn't see
JUDGE RIAD: But she was not killing, she was giving water? (5) • A.: Yes, she was giving water. I don't know what her intentions were though. JUDGE RIAD: My last question: You were mentioning that the registration on vehicles was in Cyrillic and it was not familiar in Bosnia. Did I (10)understand rightly? • A.: No. Before the war, the plates used to be in Latin alphabet, and everybody had the same kind of plates regardless of the nationality. But when the war broke out and until 1995, until I was captured at (15)Grbovci, I didn't see that the Serbs had different plates, but at that moment I saw that they actually had different licence plates with Cyrillic letters on them. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness L. • A.: Thank you, Your Honour. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Riad. Judge Wald.
JUDGE WALD: Witness L, at the time that you
were discussing the different kinds of uniforms and
(25)camouflage uniforms that the people around, I think it
• A.: They were just there in the compound. They were mixed together, the Serb police and the army. But (15)at the door were only soldiers, very young boys under 20 years of age, I think. JUDGE WALD: But the ones who were in the yard with the greyish uniforms were basically doing the same thing as the other soldiers, right? They were not (20)at the door, I understand they were in the yard. • A.: They were in the yard when we arrived, but those in grey uniforms didn't come to the door because their police wear such uniforms.
JUDGE WALD: Could you tell what they were
(25)doing there? Were they just standing around? Were
• A.: They were just giving us orders to run towards the school, and we don't know what they did (5)afterwards outside. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, did some of the vehicles that you were discussing whether they had military or other kinds of police identification on it, were any of those kinds of military police vehicles (10)used for transporting the prisoners? • A.: No, the vehicles were not like that. JUDGE WALD: Okay. You did speak of there being -- when you were being transported to the school, 30, approximately 30 large vehicles of all different (15)types, you said. Could you tell whether all of those vehicles looked like they were local vehicles or did any of them have markings which would suggest they had come from farther away since there were so many large vehicles in that small place? (20) • A.: All the vehicles were civilian. None of them came from the outside. We would only see the vehicle that would be unloaded in front of us, then they would go back to pick up some more.
JUDGE WALD: But you couldn't tell whether
(25)some of these vehicles had markings of, you know,
• A.: They didn't have private or military markings. They were mostly vehicles from the former (5)Yugoslavia, the socialist republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There was a company from Sarajevo, they had the same markings. The only difference being that the licence plates were in Cyrillic with a double "S" standing for Srpska Sarajevo, Serbian Sarajevo. (10) JUDGE WALD: So some of them did come at least from towns and cities that were away from Grbovci and from where they were. They had to come a distance obviously if they came from Sarajevo, right? • A.: I don't know whether they used those buses in (15)Zvornik or Bratunac or Sarajevo, I don't know. I just know that those were the registration plates and that they were Centrotrans buses, belonging to the Centrotrans Company. JUDGE WALD: And the Centrotrans Company, do (20)you know whether it operates; all of Bosnia or just certain regions? • A.: All of Bosnia and Herzegovina, everywhere.
JUDGE WALD: My next question is: In the
Grbovci school when you went into the gym, could you
(25)tell whether or not that school looked like it had
• A.: Until before the war, it was a regular school. But then afterwards when the war came, it was allowed to go into disuse so the gym wasn't up to something, either. (10) JUDGE WALD: So it didn't look as though that school had been used as a school in recent months or in the recent year; is that right? • A.: Of course it probably hadn't been used for the past two years prior to that. (15) JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness L, I have two questions for you. The first is the following: While you were under the control of soldiers or the Serb army, how many days did you go (20)without food?
• A.: We were there around 22 hours. No one gave
us anything to eat. I'm not counting the time when we
went to be executed; I'm just counting the time that we
were sitting there. Nobody offered us any bread or
(25)anything. Nobody asked for anything either, but nobody
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] My second question is the following. When you arrived at the school, that is, the gym, you saw a pile of clothing. (5)I'd like to ask you: When you entered the school itself, when you got inside, was the school already full or was it still empty? • A.: It was half full, more than half full. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] More than (10)half of the school was full? • A.: Yes, when I entered. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much for answering all our questions. You answered questions from the Prosecution, the Defence, (15)the Judges. Is there anything that you would like to say and that hasn't been covered by the answers to the questions? If you wish to add anything, you may do so now. THE WITNESS: I could just put a question to (20)counsel, but one that is not linked to this indictment.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] No, I'm
afraid not. You can leave the question in the air, but
the attorney is not obliged to answer that question.
You may put the question just like that, to the
(25)courtroom.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Go ahead. (5) THE WITNESS: Mr. lawyer, you are defending a man who left 50.000 children orphaned, without one or both parents. Don't you feel guilty for those orphans, and what right do you have to defend him? That is my question. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm going to answer that, Witness L. The Defence attorneys are doing their job here, and they're doing their job properly. All the accused have the right to a Defence, and that is why we are here. We are here to hear the (15)Prosecution and the Defence, and it is always important that the Prosecution does its job well, and the Defence also do their job well, and the Judges are there to judge. Thank you very much for coming here and for the spontaneous manner in which you answered our (20)questions. I hope I will help you understand that all the attorneys are doing their job, which doesn't mean that they share any responsibility. THE WITNESS: I know that.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] And
(25)regardless of the responsibility of the --
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] -- and regardless of the perpetrators of acts, and those acts (5)are certainly horrible acts, and you are alive to tell the world that such acts must not be repeated. Don't move for the moment, Witness L. I think Mr. McCloskey has at least one exhibit to tender, Exhibit 100. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, we would offer that as evidence. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No objection (15)from the Defence, Your Honour.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] In that
case, Exhibit 100 will be tendered into evidence.
Witness L, you have completed your
testimony. Thank you very much for coming. And as I
(20)have told you, you must tell the world, you, who have
lived through these experiences, that we should do
everything to prevent a repetition of such acts. And
please remember that all the accused are presumed to be
innocent until proven guilty. That is the spirit of
(25)justice, and we are rendering justice here in the best
--- Recess taken at 10.44 a.m. (10) --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, (15)then. Could you please stand up, because you have to read the solemn declaration first, which is written on the piece of paper that the usher will give you. THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the (20)truth. WITNESS: WITNESS M JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You may be seated now. Are you comfortable, Witness? THE WITNESS: It's okay, thank you. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You will be
(5) MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me. There is something that we have to take care of first. The representative of the Registry will show you a piece of paper with your name written on it, Witness. (10)Could you please tell us by saying only yes or no if this is really your name. THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. Now you will be answering questions. (15)I'm sorry, Mr. Cayley. Please proceed. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley:
• Q.: Witness, throughout your testimony I shall
refer to you as Witness M in order to ensure that your
(20)identity is not disclosed. And if I could ask you to
try to remember to speak as slowly as you can -- I know
it's your manner to speak quite quickly -- because we
have interpreters between us who are interpreting
everything into English and French.
(25)You're a Bosnian; is that correct?
• Q.: And you are a Muslim by faith? • A.: Yes, I am. • Q.: I think until 1993 you lived in the area of (5)Cerska; is that correct? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: And I think in March of 1993, when Cerska fell, you moved to a village inside what became the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? (10) • A.: Yes, it's correct. • Q.: I want to now move forward in time, and I want you to think about the 11th of July, 1995. And I think at that time you and the other men from the Srebrenica enclave gathered at Susnjari; is that right? (15) • A.: Yes, that's right. • Q.: Now, Witness, where did the women and children go? • A.: The women and children went to Potocari, together with the elderly. (20) • Q.: Why did the men not go to Potocari? • A.: The men, the able-bodied men, didn't go to Potocari; they went to the woods, because they didn't dare to go into their hands.
• Q.: I may ask you questions the answers to which
(25)appear perfectly obvious, but nevertheless the Judges
• A.: I didn't dare go to Potocari, for example, because they had already surrounded us. They had (5)surrounded Srebrenica and they were entering Potocari, and I didn't go there, didn't dare go there. • Q.: When you refer to "they" -- you said that "they" had surrounded. Are you referring to the Bosnian Serbs? (10) • A.: They had attacked us, and on the 11th they entered the town of Srebrenica. And when that happened, I went to the woods, because I didn't dare go to Potocari. But I had sent my wife, my mother, and my children and a cousin of mine who was 14 years of age; (15)he went to Potocari. They all went to Potocari. But he didn't survive. And we went to the woods. And my father was also sent to Potocari, but he preferred to go with us. He said, "Sons, I will go to you and then be what may." (20) • Q.: Was it the Bosnian Serb army that had entered Srebrenica and surrounded the enclave?
• A.: As they were entering the town of Srebrenica,
I had already started towards the woods, together with
the military. The command of the army ordered the
(25)able-bodied men to go through the woods; and those who
• Q.: Were you in the army at the time yourself? • A.: No, I wasn't in the army. • Q.: Did you carry weapons with you on the 11th of (5)July? • A.: No. We didn't have weapons. • Q.: Now, can you remember approximately what time you left Jaglici on the 11th of July? • A.: In the evening of the 11th of July, around (10)10.00 p.m., and this is where we lined up. This is where we assembled in Susnjari, and then we went in the direction of Jaglici, Pobudze, and Cerska, on onwards towards Tuzla. • Q.: Now, I want to move ahead in time to the 13th (15)of July of 1995, when I think you found yourself on a hill called Dolina, which is between the hamlets or villages of Jelah and Krke. Do you recall that? • A.: I do. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown (20)Prosecutor's Exhibit 120. If it could be placed in front of the witness and then placed on the ELMO, please.
• Q.: Now, Witness, do you recall yesterday, you
and I drew a sketch map of this area together and then
(25)this map that you see in front of you is generated on a
• A.: This is a correct drawing, correct representation of the location where I was. (5) MR. CAYLEY: Can you place a copy on the ELMO, please. Thank you. • Q.: Now, Witness, could you indicate on the ELMO, the location of Dolina? • A.: This is Jelah here [indicates] Krke and (10)Dolina is here and this is where I was on a hill. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has indicated on Prosecutor's Exhibit 120 that the pyramid, the triangle, the black triangle is Dolina and that hill is in between two villages called Jelah (15)and Krke. • Q.: Now, Witness, how far were you from the road that goes between Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje? As the crow flies, how far were you from that road? • A.: This is Konjevic Polje [indicates] Nova (20)Kasaba is here and I was here near the asphalt road; 500 metres as the crow flies, maybe not even 500. So I could observe from the hill, the area of Konjevic Polje and Kasaba, I could see the road.
• Q.: Now, from the hill at Dolina, can you tell
(25)the Judges what you recall seeing on the 13th of July,
• A.: On the 13th of July, it was a Thursday, I remember very well. It was about 2.00 in the afternoon and I noticed trucks and buses passing by moving from (5)Konjevic Polje towards Nova Kasaba. I was there together with eight other people and people started to shout. They were saying, "They're probably taking our women and children. To the free territory." (10)There were two or three buses there at that point and they turned right off the asphalt road and they went into the -- in the direction of Cerska across the bridge and I was watching them. There was a little path towards Skurici, but (15)then they went directly to Cerska and they turned around the curve and this is where I lost them. There was an APC following them and two other trek vehicles. Maybe five or ten minutes after that, a yellow backhoe started out in the same direction and I (20)could watch it travel as well and at that point, we could only hear fire of small firearms.
• Q.: Witness, if you could pause there for a
moment.
Now, you said in your evidence that you saw
(25)two or three buses which turned right off the asphalt
(5) • A.: The buses left Konjevic Polje and they turned towards Kamenica. There was a bridge here [indicates], you can see it here, across the Jadar river. And they moved up hill from there towards Cerska. There is a little road which turns left to (10)Skurici they went towards Cerska and I could still see them. They turned right towards Cerska. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has indicated on Prosecutor's Exhibit 120 that the three buses turned onto a road that goes towards (15)the village of Cerska over a bridge that is indicated by a bridge symbol on that road, past -- turning to another small village called Skurici and on the way to Cerska. • Q.: Now, Witness, you also stated that you saw (20)other vehicles following. Can you describe the APC that you saw to the Judges?
• A.: Yes, I can describe the APC. I noticed also
a trek vehicle that was green in colour. There was
some soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms on that
(25)vehicle, but I couldn't tell which uniform it was. I
• Q.: Now, you also said, Witness, that you saw a yellow backhoe vehicle following these buses and the (5)APC. Is that a vehicle which has a shovel on the front of it? Is that the kind of vehicle that you saw? • A.: Yes, that kind of vehicle. It was yellow. It had wheels and it had a bucket or a shovel. • Q.: Now, you then said in your evidence that you (10)heard infantry weapons firing. Now, prior to that, did you lose sight? • A.: Yes, first of all, we heard small arms fire and then later on, we heard echo of other weapons that were being fired in the valley. (15)And after the shooting stopped, this lasted for about half an hour, the three buses came back and took the same road in the direction of Konjevic Polje. And the APC followed them, but the excavator remained there longer, longer than half an hour. But it came (20)back the same -- along the same road and it went also in the direction of Konjevic Polje following the APC.
• Q.: I want you to think back to when you first
saw the vehicles going towards Cerska. Was there a
time when you lost sight of the vehicles because the
(25)road goes into woods?
(10) • Q.: In terms of the period of time that passed between you losing sight of the vehicles and the shooting starting, can you estimate now, looking back, how much time passed between those two events? • A.: The buses went away and after about 10 or 15 (15)minutes, we saw the personnel carrier and then the excavator. And then they came back, one after the other. The personnel carrier followed the buses, but the excavator remained there a little longer. It lagged behind. (20) • Q.: You misunderstood my question. Do you recall that you stated that there came a time when the buses and the excavator and the APC disappeared from your sight into the woods?
• A.: They didn't go into the woods, they followed
(25)the buses along the same road and I could see them.
• Q.: After the time that you couldn't see them (5)anymore, how long after that time did the shooting start? • A.: The shooting started 10 minutes after that. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 11/3. And if that map (10)actually could be left there because we need that again. • Q.: Now, Witness, this is a photograph that I showed you this morning. And what I'd like you to do is to show it to the Judges? (15) MR. CAYLEY: Could the photograph be moved to your left, please. No, other direction and down a little. Actually, the other way slightly. And if you could just followed up there is a bit that's pressed down at the top of the photograph. (20) • Q.: Now, Witness, can you show to the Judges the hill at Dolina where you were watching these events from?
• A.: Let me show you. This is Konjevic Polje,
this is Nova Kasaba and this is where I was, at this
(25)hill, here,
[indicates] this is where I was near the
• Q.: Could you just put your pointer on the (5)location on the hill and leave it there. • A.: This is the spot [indicates] • Q.: Can you show me the road to Cerska? • A.: This is the road [indicates] This is the bridge across the Jadar river and the road goes on (10)towards Cerska. MR. CAYLEY: I'm going to attempt to put this into the transcript. On a large panoramic photograph, Prosecutor's Exhibit 11/3, the witness has identified that he was about halfway up the most prominent hill in (15)the middle of that photograph, and that he also indicated on the same exhibit, the road which runs in a vertical, near vertical fashion, from that hill and the main, I think, landmark is a bridge which he identified as a bridge across the river Jadar. (20) • Q.: Witness, what was your view like from the hill at Dolina? • A.: I had a very good view. • Q.: Did you grow up in this area?
• A.: Yes, I did. I'm familiar enough with the
(25)area. If I didn't know the area, I probably wouldn't
MR. CAYLEY: That's fine, thank you. • Q.: Now, I think 16 days after Srebrenica fell, you managed to cross the asphalt road between Konjevic (5)Polje and Nova Kasaba; is that right? • A.: Yes, that's right. • Q.: Where did you go after that? • A.: The Serb army withdrew on the 14th day. The asphalt road was cleared and it was on the 16th day (10)that we managed to pull through towards Macesi. That is the area between Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba, not far from the turning towards Cerska, and this is where I crossed the asphalt road and I reached the woods near the area of Macesi. And this is where I found several (15)other people. It was already dark. It was at nightfall, and it was drizzling and we spent the night there and after that, we went towards the Udrc mountain. • Q.: Witness if you just wait for a moment. (20) MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 120 again. • Q.: Witness, and if you could just show the Judges the village of Macesi and where you spent the night that night? (25)
• A.: This is Konjevic Polje and this is the road
• Q.: Thank you, Witness. I just have to record in our record what you pointed to. MR. CAYLEY: So the witness indicated that he crossed the tar macadam road and then turning off (10)towards Cerska and then he proceeded towards a village which is marked as Macesi, spelled M-a-c-e-s-i on Prosecutor's Exhibit 120. • Q.: Now, Witness, you then said that you set out towards the Udrc mountain and I wonder if you could (15)just point out for the benefit of the Judges so that we don't all get lost in the forest the location of that mountain? • A.: This is Udrc. MR. CAYLEY: And let the record show that the (20)witness is indicating to a black triangle underneath which is the word "Udrc." The location is Udrc, just below the Drinjaca river.
• Q.: Now, Witness, when you got to the Udrc
Mountain, who did you find there, and what happened to
(25)you?
• Q.: Witness, if I could just interrupt you. Now, (10)you've told the Judges about an account that was told by an old man, about how he and two disabled people managed to escape from Jaglici. Do you recall any other accounts that were given by people who had escaped from Jaglici, anything else that the man with (15)the nickname wrote down in his diary?
• A.: I remember the eight men who also spoke about
the mass grave. That night, on the 13th, they came
along the road. They followed the same road as the
APC. They followed that road, the macadam road,
(20)towards Kasaba. They said, "We took that road." And
when we reached the crossroads we came across a pool of
blood. When we saw that pool of blood, we didn't dare
go on towards Cerska, so they turned towards Macesi.
And the man who wrote this down asked them, "Where
(25)could this spot be?" They said, "I don't know." And I
• Q.: Witness, if we could just -- I just have a few questions about what you just said. Now, you said that these men who told the man with the nickname about the pool of blood, that they had crossed the road on (10)the 13th. Would that be the 13th of July of 1995? • A.: The 13th of July, 1995, when the shooting was heard, that night they managed to cross the road and went along the road to Cerska, and that is when they came across this pool of blood. (15) • Q.: And the road to Cerska, if you could just indicate to the Judges again -- I know you've done it previously -- the road, just the road, on which they found this pool of blood.
• A.: This is the road to Cerska, here • Q.: Witness, if you could just wait there. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: Now, the Witness has indicated
(5) • Q.: Now, Witness, I think there came a time when the Serbs actually noticed all of you men on the Udrc Mountain; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And when that happened, what did you do? (10)
• A.: He noticed us on Udrc in August. I remember
well. It was a Saturday when we came down from Udrc.
Me and my friends who were with me came down to these
villages of Babici and others. They were all burned
down. There were some houses still standing. We lit a
(15)fire. Just then I lit a fire. I found a pot, a
bucket, to get some water to wash myself. I started
washing myself in a stable. At that moment the people
from the houses started fleeing into the mountains.
They were saying, "Here are the Serbs. The Chetniks
(20)are coming."
I ran out through the door and I could hear
firing at the village. And the troops were coming from
the right and from the left to capture us. I just
managed to put on shorts. I was barefoot, and I
(25)climbed up the mountain. The men who went left or
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry, Mr. Cayley. I think the witness should be asked to speak a little bit more slowly. At least the French (5)interpreters are having difficulty in following him. MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Witness, I know it's your manner to speak very quickly, but if you could try and slow down, because, as I said to you, we have interpreters between (10)us. So if you'd just take a breath while you're talking, then that will make your evidence much clearer for everybody. Now, Witness, you said that you returned from Huberi back to the Cerska area, and that you met some (15)friends and you came across, I think, eight comrades, and you joined them and stayed near a small river. Can you indicate on the map where it was that you were staying at this time with your eight comrades? Just approximately. (20)
• A.: Approximately. This is Cerska
[indicates]
There's a road going to Hasanici and there's another
road to the left, and I followed the river. And
halfway between Hasanovici and Hakalasi I was there,
between Hakalasi and Hasanovici, in the river. It's
(25)about 15 minutes from Cerska, from the school in
MR. CAYLEY: I'm not going to try to explain that into the transcript, but I think it would be accurate to say on Prosecutor's Exhibit 120, that the (5)witness indicated that he stayed near a stream about 15 minutes from Cerska, which is marked on the map. • Q.: Now, Witness, there came a time, I think, when you ran out of salt, and you and your comrades decided to try and go and search for food and for (10)salt. Do you recall that?
• A.: I do. It was in September, but I don't know
the exact date. When we ran out of salt, we wondered
what we should do. We had a little salt. We ate
whatever we could: mushrooms, plants. So then we
(15)decided to go down to Pobudze, where we saw a lot of
dead and a lot of backpacks. We thought we'd find some
salt there. So the four of us set off from the mill
and we reached the school at Cerska.
From the school -- it was an eight-year
(20)elementary school. The four of us agreed at the school
the two would look to the right, two to the left, to
see where that grave could possibly be. And so from
Cerska we went to Konjevic Polje, Kasaba, along the
road. We followed the road and we were looking to the
(25)left and to the right.
• A.: This is Cerska [indicates] This is where the school is. And we went along this road. We went (5)along this road towards Konjevic Polje and Kasaba, asphalt road. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating the road that goes from Cerska to the junction of the road between Nova Kasaba and (10)Konjevic Polje. • Q.: Witness, if you could continue with your account of what happened.
• A.: When we left Cerska, the school, when we
reached a crossroads called Talusa Luka, we found a
(15)pile in the grass, and the two of them said, "This is
where the grave must be." We saw it wasn't a grave; it
was somebody who had started building before the war.
Then we went on and we got to this place,
Masuska
[phoen] And then the two of them said, "Here
(20)is the grave." And we found it, right here
• Q.: Witness, if I could just take you back. Could you point to the spot -- and I know this map is (15)only approximate -- where the mass grave is located, where you found the grave? • A.: Here it is [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is pointing to a rectangle just below and to (20)the right of Cerska. • Q.: Now, Witness, you also said that you could see where an excavator had dug earth. Can you point on this map to where you saw the excavator digging earth?
• A.: Right across the way, across the road from
(25)that grave, here
[indicates] We noticed the traces of
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is pointing to a Chevron sign immediately above (5)the black rectangle indicating the site of the mass grave. • Q.: Can you now -- you said that there were two houses down from there that belonged to the Uvalics. Can you just point to those? (10) • A.: Those were the Uvalics' houses, the two houses. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is pointing to two house-shaped objects marked "Uvalic," immediately to the right of the spot marking (15)the mass grave. • Q.: Witness, when you discovered this grave, did you smell anything there? • A.: I could tell by the smell, the stench. One could feel the stench. (20)
MR. CAYLEY: If we could now show
Prosecutor's Exhibit 16/5, which is a video. And this,
Your Honours, is the video that you've seen already of
the Cerska Valley region. It's a heavily wooded area,
it's very rugged, but I think it will give you a better
(25)idea of the area we're talking about. I've taken some
THE WITNESS: This is where I was. That is where I saw the buses. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has just indicated on the video which shows the (10)road to Cerska, that that is where he saw the buses which he referred to earlier.
THE WITNESS: There are the houses MR. CAYLEY: (15) • Q.: Are those the houses that belonged to the Uvalic brothers? • A.: Yes, yes, the two houses of the Uvalic brothers. And here's the tomb. This is where the tomb is [indicates] (20) MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 121, and this is a series of stills, Your Honour, that were taken from the video that we've just seen.
• Q.: Now, you pointed out the houses of the Uvalic
(25)brothers, and they're just ruins. Why are those houses
• A.: Those houses were all right while we were in Cerska. When Cerska fell, they went to mine and destroy one house after another, all our homes. (5) • Q.: The Bosnian Serbs, you're talking about? • A.: The Bosnian Serbs, yes, I'm talking about them. They destroyed, torched and mined our houses. • Q.: Can you point out on these photographs, first of all, the location of the houses of the Uvalic (10)brothers? • A.: Those are the houses of the two Uvalic brothers. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating on the panoramic view in the (15)frame that is to the furthest right in the series and you can see in the middle of that two grey-white areas which I think can be clearly seen on the clip below the remaining foundations of a house. • Q.: Can you show the house, the road to Macesi, (20)the intersection? • A.: This is the road to Cerska, and this is the road that goes to Macesi. You can see it here that's where it is. That's the road to Macesi from here.
MR. CAYLEY: My colleague has just informed
(25)me that I've misdescribed the photograph. In fact, the
(5) • Q.: I'm sorry, Witness, can you point out the road again to Macesi? • A.: The road to Macesi, here it is, this is the crossroad and it turns off here. MR. CAYLEY: And the witness has indicated in (10)the panorama and it can be clearly seen that it goes out to the right and disappears out of the bottom right-hand corner of the panorama. • Q.: And finally, Witness, can you indicate the location to the Judges of the tomb or the mass grave. (15)
• A.: Here it was, here. This is where it was here MR. CAYLEY: And the witness is indicating on (20)the frame on the right of the panorama and it is an area which is on the left-hand side of the road going towards Cerska as the road disappears out of the photograph.
• Q.: Witness, if you could look at the photograph
(25)below which is a clearer view of that final frame.
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the (5)witness is indicating in the single frame photograph on the lower right side of the exhibit a white-grey area in the centre of the photograph just above where the road curves down and goes off to the left is the grave, and that below that where there's a hedgeline is an (10)area, I think he said, where the earth was dug, where the excavator dug the earth. • Q.: Thank you, Witness. MR. CAYLEY: Finally, if we could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 16/3. (15) • A.: This is it [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Could the booth perhaps pan out somewhat. That's fine. • Q.: Witness, can you first of all indicate to the judges the site of the grave that you discovered? (20) • A.: The site of the grave, this is where the grave was on this side [indicates]
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the
witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 16/3 to
the right of the yellow distance markers which run down
(25)the centre of the road.
• Q.: Can you indicate to the Judges where you saw where the excavator had been at work? • A.: The excavator had been working on the (5)right-hand side, the left -- no, the right-hand side. • Q.: Could you indicate with your pointer.
• A.: Across the way from the grave here MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is showing that the excavator had been working on the side of the road which is essentially where the (15)vehicles are parked, so directly opposite the mass grave and it is, in fact, on the left-hand side of the photograph as you look at the photograph. • Q.: Witness, thank you. Can you tell the Judges who were the male members of your family that you lost (20)during the war?
• A.: After 130 days, I reached free territory. It
was the 18th of November when I reached Kladanj. I
learned that I lost my father, my brother, cousins, my
neighbours; and my father who I loved most.
(25)I have my mother, my wife, and children, no
• Q.: And they -- all of these members of your family disappeared at the time of the fall of (5)Srebrenica in July of 1995? • A.: Yes, the fall of Srebrenica. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you Mr. President. I don't have any further questions for the witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you (10)very much, Mr. Cayley. Mr. Visnjic, how much time do you think you will need for the cross-examination of the witness, approximately? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, (15)maybe 20 minutes, and I was about to suggest a break at this point. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. We will have a 15-minute break now -- no, perhaps we should have half an hour break at this point. (20) --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m. --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness M, have you had some rest during the break? • A.: Yes, I have. Thank you. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Now, you're
• CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: (15) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Good afternoon, Witness M. • A.: Good afternoon. • Q.: Witness M, let me go back to the beginning of (20)your story. You said you had lived in Srebrenica? • A.: Yes, and I was in Srebrenica until the fall. • Q.: In the town itself? • A.: I lived in the outskirts of the town.
• Q.: During your examination-in-chief, you said at
(25)one point that on the 11th of July, when Srebrenica
• A.: Yes, that's correct. Women and children, (5)civilian population, went to Potocari, and the able-bodied men went to Susnjari in order to save their lives; some managed to do that, some didn't. I was lucky enough to survive. • Q.: This division of the population was carried (10)out according to whose orders? • A.: Well, our soldiers, our military men were shouting, giving orders. They were telling us -- they told us that the women and children should go to Potocari, and those who felt healthy and well enough, (15)that they should go to the woods. This is what our commanders told us. • Q.: How did you personally learn about that? Was there a messenger who conveyed the order or were there just rumours? (20)
• A.: We gathered in the village of Kazani near the
cemetery in Srebrenica, and this is where they were
told what had happened. They said that women and
children and the elderly should go to Potocari, and
those who were able-bodied, that they should go to the
(25)woods and try to save their lives in this manner.
• A.: This is what we heard. They were shouting and they were telling that the weak ones should go to (5)Potocari and that the others should go to the woods, to Susnjari. And those were the orders, and some people survived, some didn't. I managed to survive. And so let me tell you once again, it was very difficult for us. I have not come here to argue (10)with you. I have come here to tell the truth about what we have been through. And I have come to tell you about the 130 days that I spent in the woods and how I managed to survive. I've come here to tell the truth about what has happened to me. (15)And I feel very sorry for the people. And this gentleman sitting here, if he had known for this Tribunal, he wouldn't have come here, would have lived -- stayed there and lived with us as he did before the war. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Witness M,
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but could you please try
and answer Mr. Visnjic's questions in a direct manner.
If a question is a direct one, please try to
give us a direct answer.
(25)We are here to do justice and there are two
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: Witness M, in one of your previous (10)statements, you said that the column had left Susnjari around 10.00 p.m.; is that correct? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: You also said that you were walking from the 12th of July until 13th, that you reached the village (15)of Kamenica? • A.: Yes, that is true this is where we spent the day resting, it was the place of Kamenica. And this is actually where the tragedy happened later on, the terrible thing. (20) • Q.: Please, if we can let the interpreters translate. This is why I stopped. You also said that you left Kamenica around 6.00 p.m. and that around 1900 you ran into an ambush; is that correct? (25)
• A.: Yes. We were surrounded and they opened fire
THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please, for the interpreters. (5) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: You also said that on the 13th of July you arrived in the village of Burnice; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that's correct, in the morning hours of the 13th. (10) • Q.: Also on the 13th, that is, on the same day, you left the village of Burnice and went to village of Rahonjici. • A.: Yes. We went across the field and we reached the village of Rahonjici. (15) • Q.: You said that on the same day you left the village of Rahonjici and went to the village of Mranice, which is near the village of Rahonjici? • A.: Yes, this is what I did, and this is where I reached the junction where I found three or four dead (20)bodies. The junction was the one for the village of Mranice and the village of Krke. And I heard somebody -- I heard noises, I heard people calling me, but I didn't dare move. • Q.: What day was it, if you can remember that? (25)
• A.: It was on the 13th, on Thursday morning.
• A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: You also stated that a part of the people (5)from your group surrendered on that day.
• A.: Yes. There were maybe 50 of us in the group,
and there were some people whom I knew, whom I
recognised. People were inquiring about their family
members. And while I was there in that group, a
(10)personnel carrier came from Konjevic Polje, from the
direction of Konjevic Polje. I couldn't recognise the
soldiers who were on the personnel carrier, but I
noticed that they were wearing camouflage uniforms.
And they went in the direction of Nova Kasaba, but they
(15)only got as far as Dzugum, as far as a cafe which was
situated there. And people started shouting, telling
us to surrender. They were telling us that the Red
Cross was there, that UNPROFOR people were there, and
they told us to come down to the asphalt road and to
(20)surrender.
I was there together with other people, but
whoever had any wits about him didn't even think of
surrendering. And some 130 of us remained in that
river, in that little brook. And this is -- and then
(25)afterwards I went in the direction of Jelah and the
• Q.: What time of the day was it when several members of your group surrendered? • A.: It was on the same day, on the 13th of July, (5)around 10.00 or maybe half past 9.00 in the morning. And I was watching them while I was at the village of Krke, as they were climbing down the hill and going towards the asphalt road. I noticed several groups of Serb soldiers and I could see people coming out on the (10)asphalt road. I could hear Serb soldiers asking them if they had any weapons, and they said they didn't, and at that point they would raise their hands. But then one would hear a voice of someone who was giving commands, and then they told people to halt, to stop, (15)and to raise their hands. • Q.: How far were you from the asphalt road at that moment?
• A.: There was a brook there and there was a
little forest, the Krke wood, and maybe I was some 500
(20)meters away from them. I'm not quite sure. This is an
approximate distance. But I could see everything. I
could see the asphalt road, I could see people coming
down to the asphalt road, I could see them surrender,
being captured. And the Serb soldiers also came down
(25)to the asphalt road and they were pointing their rifles
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I should like to ask you to ask very specific and short questions so that we don't lose too much time, waste too much time. (10)The question was what distance it was. If you can try to control the witness, please, Mr. Visnjic. You can interrupt the witness. That's okay with me. If you don't do that, I will have to intervene every time. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, (15)Mr. President. I didn't want to interrupt the witness, but otherwise I would have intervened. • Q.: Let us clarify something, Witness M. You were observing the asphalt road at the moment some people surrendered. You were at the same spot as when (20)you saw the buses and the excavator. • A.: No. I was closer to the location. I was in Mranice and I was between the Krke wood and the brook. • Q.: So this is another location; this is a different location? (25)
• A.: Yes. I was watching people coming down to
• Q.: Let us pause a little for the interpretation, and then I will ask my question. So this is where you were on the 13th of July, in the afternoon? (10) • A.: Yes. In the morning. It was in the morning when I was at the Krke woods. And after that I left the Krke wood and I went to the area called Dolina. • Q.: What time was it when you reached this other location? (15) • A.: It could have been 1.00, half past 1.00 in the afternoon. • Q.: How far from you were the Serb soldiers, from the second location? • A.: Well, maybe 500 meters away from me. They (20)were on the asphalt road and I was in the forest, and I was watching from my vantage point. I didn't want to move, because I was afraid. I wanted to stay near the brook. And I was actually running from wood to wood. I was hiding all the time. (25)
• Q.: If I understand you correctly, in the morning
• A.: Yes, and it was between Krke and Jelah. • Q.: Thank you very much. My next question concerns the second location. You could see Serb soldiers from that location; is that right? (10) • A.: From the second location where I was between Krke and Jelah, in the area of Dolina? No, I could not see soldiers from there, going towards Cerska. • Q.: Did you see Serb soldiers on the asphalt road from that point? (15) • A.: Yes, because the road was completely blocked. People were coming down from the area of Mranice and Krke and going towards Konjevic Polje. That whole area was completely sealed off. Nobody could get through. And they had posted their guards (20)every ten -- there were bunkers everywhere, every ten to fifteen -- • Q.: Tell me: You saw three buses on that day? • A.: Yes, on the 11th, in the afternoon, around 1400 hours, yes. (25)
• Q.: Were there Serb soldiers in those buses?
(5) THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down because of the interpretation. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: So you couldn't see whether there was anyone in the buses? (10) • A.: Because I was far away, I couldn't see. It was a large distance. • Q.: How do you know that those buses were full of people, or is it your assumption? • A.: It is my assumption, because later on I heard (15)the shooting. I'm not sure, but I think that those were the people who had surrendered. I assumed that those were those people who went to Konjevic Polje, in the direction of Cerska. That is what me and my comrades thought, that they must be those people. (20) • Q.: Witness M, you made a statement previously to the Tribunal and the Ministry of the Interior after you crossed into free territory?
• A.: Yes. I told the truth everywhere. I made a
statement, telling the truth, and I have come here to
(25)tell the truth, to tell everything I saw and
• Q.: I know that some time has passed by since then and that perhaps your memories are not too precise, but I would like to show you the statement you (5)gave to the Ministry of the Interior on the 22nd of November, 1995. THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D15. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: On page 1 I have highlighted in yellow, to (10)make it easier for you to find the place. There's a sentence which says: "On the 12th day, after I left Srebrenica, so that is on the 22nd of July, 1995, in the afternoon, from the direction of Konjevic Polje three white buses arrived, followed by an armoured (15)personnel carrier on wheels, with an anti-aircraft gun on the turret and a yellow excavator loader." My question is as follows: During your stay in the area of Pobudze did you see three buses driving in the direction of Cerska on a number of occasions or (20)only once? • A.: Only once, on the 13th of July, around 2.00 in the afternoon. I'm sure of that. • Q.: Thank you.
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Could I ask the
(25)usher for his assistance, please, with the next
THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit D16. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] (5) • Q.: On page 4 -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, excuse me for interrupting you. It's simply to tell you that the method that you used for the other exhibit is a very good one, so you can use it (10)in the future as well. I'm just telling you that we appreciate that very much, so please do that in the future as well. So you can continue, Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm afraid on this exhibit I failed to (15)mark the sentence, and I accept your criticism. • Q.: On page 4, fourth paragraph, it starts: "At 1400 hours --" Have you found the place? • A.: Yes. • Q.: "At 1400 hours we saw three white buses full (20)of people coming from the direction of Konjevic Polje, going in the direction of Nova Kasaba. I could not see if the passengers were only men, but I assume that they were transporting prisoners who had surrendered."
• A.: Yes, I remember that. That is correct.
(25)Fine.
(5) • A.: Yes. The people were going from Konjevic Polje to Kasaba in trucks and buses; in the morning too they were passing by, and I followed all this and I saw all this. When in the afternoon they went towards Cerska, I thought that they were also civilians that (10)they were taking. But when I saw them turn towards Cerska, I said, "Something is wrong." No, but the other one said, "They're taking them to free territory," and I said no, and I proved to be right. • Q.: You said a moment ago that you didn't see (15)whether they were full of people so you just assumed that? • A.: Yes, I assumed that. • Q.: Thank you. Witness M, you stayed in the area, if I understood you correctly, until around the (20)25th of July for some 11 or 12 days in all?
• A.: After that, I couldn't pass. The Serbian
army had withdrawn from the bunkers and freed the road,
and I was able to pass. The first night I passed, they
didn't fire. But we were all afraid, of course, all of
(25)us.
• A.: Yes, I was watching the road. Then I went (5)back to the villages and hid in the woods. Another day the infantry started after us from Jaglici. • Q.: Finally, you crossed to the other side and reached Udrc? • A.: Yes. After that, I did. On the 16th or 17th (10)day, I reached the Udrc mountain. • Q.: During your stay on Udrc mountain, did you have any indications or did you hear that the Serb army was searching the area and following you? • A.: Of course they were following us and (15)monitoring us. I noticed them all, yes, everything. • Q.: How long did this last while you were on Mount Udrc? • A.: When I crossed the asphalt road, that was the 18th day. I spent 25 days there on Udrc. This was in (20)August when the army arrived and the APC. That was a Saturday at the beginning of August.
• Q.: For how long were they searching the area;
for one month, two months, or did you have the feeling
that they were there all the time?
(25)I'm not asking you about that specific
• A.: For a short time, no, only for about a few (5)days, a short time. A short time, only two days. They were chasing people and those they managed to catch alive, and when they withdrew, then we came down and went through the woods. And later on I joined this group. (10) • Q.: Later you didn't come across Serb troops? • A.: No, never again. And I was able to move around freely in Cerska, my place. We were safe there. It was better in Cerska and on Udrc mountain than in Pobudze because I was encircled on all sides (15)there. • Q.: But you did go back? • A.: Yes, of course I did to Pobudze. I was looking for salt, we needed salt. There were dead people, our people, in the streams in the fields. And (20)we searched their knapsacks to find some salt. • Q.: This was at least a month later? • A.: Yes, this was about mid-September.
• Q.: Let us go back to the incident when you
discovered the mass grave. As far as I understood from
(25)your testimony, you moved around quite freely in that
• A.: Yes. After the last search in August, we moved around freely in the woods and along the road. There were no searches, there was nothing, so we were (5)free to move around in Cerska. • Q.: When you found that grave, did you just find a pile of earth? • A.: Yes, fresh earth on the left-hand side of the road. And on the right-hand side, I saw where the (10)excavator had dug up the earth and traces of the wheels and I felt the stench of corpses. • Q.: But you didn't see any corpses, you just felt the stench and the traces on the ground? • A.: No, I just had this smell, and we noticed (15)those traces of the excavator. • Q.: Was there any grass covering that earth already or any weeds? • A.: No, no. There was no grass, it was fresh. There was no grass on that earth, it was freshly moved (20)earth. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further questions.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
Mr. Visnjic.
(25)Mr. Cayley, do you have any additional
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no questions for the witness in re-examination. Thank you. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. Judge Riad • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Yes, do I have a number of questions. (10)Good morning, Witness M. I would just like to start to ask you just a very few questions from where the Defence counsel stopped concerning the grave you found. You found the grave in September when you had (15)left Cerska and it was freshly dug earth, but you felt the stench and you assumed there were dead people inside. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Could these be the people who (20)were killed in July, would they smell if they are still entered in September, or you assume that they would be freshly killed people?
• A.: I assume they were the people who surrendered
who went to Konjevic Polje, and I think they were
(25)there.
• A.: I didn't notice any bones or anything like that, only the smell. (5) JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that the houses were mined, the Uvalic brothers', and other houses were torched and so on, you saw them around. Did you understand or know anything about the people inside? Were they mined with the people inside, some (10)of them, or were they empty houses? • A.: Those houses of the Uvalic brothers, they were mined after Cerska fell and the people were evicted. It was after Cerska fell that the houses were mined. When I had left Cerska, they were still (15)standing; not just those two houses but the entire village of Cerska. It was later that the houses were mined and the people chased out and the burning was done.
JUDGE RIAD: I'm trying to understand more
(20)about the buses you saw when you were going towards
Cerska. I think both your testimony today as well as
your statement indicates that you saw buses. You said
there were three white buses with an excavator and APC,
and you just counted almost the minutes you said they
(25)disappeared into the woods, and then the shooting
• A.: I didn't see whether the buses were full or (5)empty, but I assume that there were people inside. JUDGE RIAD: But for sure they were empty when they came back? • A.: I'm sure they were empty when they came back. When the buses came back from up there, and the (10)APC, and the excavator, the loader, I assumed that they had been full when I heard the shooting. JUDGE RIAD: So when you were on this spot, what was exactly the scenario that you saw in your mind? (15) • A.: When I followed those three buses along the road from Konjevic Polje, crossing the bridge and going up there, I assumed that there were people inside and that they were taking them to be executed, and that is what happened and we heard the shooting. And when the (20)shooting stopped, the buses came back along the same route, and the excavator/loader stayed behind a little longer for about half an hour after the buses and the APC.
JUDGE RIAD: All right. As far as the
(25)shooting was concerned, was it the shooting that was
• A.: I heard very strong, heavy fire. It was very loud. It was -- there was a lot of noise, very heavy (5)shell fire could be heard. JUDGE RIAD: You mean it was guns or cannons? What do you call "heavy fire"? What do you think? • A.: I think there were light arms and also (10)machine-guns, bursts of fire from a machine-gun. One could hear it echoing along the valley. It was very loud. JUDGE RIAD: But how long did it last approximately? (15) • A.: 15 minutes, half an hour, something like that. JUDGE RIAD: And after the buses went back, there was no fire again, no bursts of fire? • A.: No, because probably the APC came after the (20)buses, only the excavators stayed there a little longer.
JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned a man whom you met
who was noting all that happened and he was coming from
an execution site, he was a survivor of an execution.
(25)Was that right?
JUDGE RIAD: Now, did he tell any details about the execution he lived out of, the number of executed, who did the execution? (5) • A.: He told us then, and this man took everything down in a notebook, he said that he had escaped from an execution site. We didn't believe him. He showed us the wounds. It was either Lolici or Kravica in a hangar. That's what he said. (10)He recognised a relative of his from Cerska and he gave his name, but he didn't know the others. That is what he told us. And he managed to escape the execution. And I didn't see him again. I don't know what his destiny was, whether he's alive or not. (15) JUDGE RIAD: And the number of executed, he did not give you an indication?
• A.: No, he didn't mention numbers because he
couldn't hear too well. Anyway, he was going deaf. He
was showing with his fingers that he had gone deaf.
(20)That man was there with us until Udrc fell. I didn't
see him again. Whether he crossed into free territory,
whether he survived or not, I don't know. But he came
to Udrc and he told me that he had come from this
execution site. I can't remember exactly whether he
(25)said Lolici or Kravica, he didn't know exactly anyway,
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. My last question, and you can answer it if you know anything. You mentioned on the 11th of July when the Serbs entered (5)Srebrenica, the men preferred to go to the woods so not to be massacred, but the women and children went to Potocari. What happened to the women and children? Were they safe? • A.: The women and children went to Potocari and (10)we, who were able-bodied went into the woods. I told my wife and mother, "Go to Potocari and look after the child, and I'm going into the woods. If I survive, fine. If not, who knows." I didn't know whether I would manage to cross into free (15)territory. My father was there. He was born in 1932. And I and my brothers were telling him to go to Potocari, to go with the women, but the old man said, "I won't, I daren't, they may kill me. If you survive I will too. If you get killed, I get killed too. I'm (20)not sure about going to Potocari." My nephew who was 14 or 15, he just said, "I'm going to Potocari with the women." But he didn't reach free territory. JUDGE RIAD: And why didn't he reach it? (25)
• A.: Because I heard that there was a disaster
JUDGE RIAD: He was 14 years old? • A.: Yes, my nephew was 14. (5) JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry to evoke these memories, but we have to know the truth. Thank you very much, Witness M. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. • A.: Thank you. I thank Your Honours and (10)everybody working on this. I have come just to tell the truth. And whoever is on the list of war crimes regardless of what ethnic group they belong to, they need to be arrested and tried and brought to court, to justice. If they had been good and if all those Serb (15)soldiers had known about The Hague, they wouldn't have done what they did. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness M, you still haven't finished your testimony. Judge Wald has questions for you so will you please answer them. (20)Judge Wald. JUDGE WALD: Witness M, you told us this morning that on July 13th, you said July 13th was the day that you saw the buses, the three buses; is that right? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: On the 13th, I was watching everything and I saw everything; the buses and trucks going from Konjevic Polje towards Kasaba. We assumed that the people were going to Potocari, were being transported. (15) JUDGE WALD: But had you seen, previously, some other buses which you were sure, from your sight, did contain women and children either that day or -- I guess, that day? • A.: We assumed when those buses and trucks were (20)going to Kasaba, we assumed that the people were being carried but the other three --
JUDGE WALD: I understand that but referring
to the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor, you
had said you had a different date then. But leaving
(25)that aside, you said, "Buses and trucks packed with
• A.: Those buses and trucks that were going (10)towards Kasaba and the people who were with me, they were all saying that they were transporting women to free territory. But at 12.00 when they turned towards Cerska, I said, "They're driving them to execution." But I -- (15)they said, "No, to free territory," but I said, "to execution."
JUDGE WALD: No, I understand that very
well. I was trying to reconcile what you said
previously in your statement that you had earlier seen
(20)buses and trucks, actually seen them with women and
children on board and that's why people might well have
assumed, to begin with, that these buses had women and
children. But you don't remember that right now,
right, whether you had earlier seen, actually seen
(25)buses with women and children. I know these were not
• A.: Those three buses that went to Cerska, I said that they were men being taken to execution whereas the others were taking the women. (5) JUDGE WALD: Okay. When those three buses returned, when you saw them come back, returned, and you were sure that they were empty, where did they go? I mean when they passed by coming back empty, where did they go? What direction did they go? (10) • A.: They went in the direction of Konjevic Polje. They came from that spot in Cerska towards Konjevic Polje.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, let me ask you about
the statement that Defence counsel mentioned that you
(15)gave to the Ministry of the Interior. I notice that
that was given on November 22nd. I believe that would
be just four days after you came into the free
territory since you said in your testimony you had been
wandering and you had been in flight and didn't get
(20)over to the free territory until November 18th.
So this statement in which you said that this
all happened on July 22nd, not July 13th, was given
only four days after you got back into the free
territory after wandering around for months; is that
(25)right?
JUDGE WALD: Right. • A.: That is true. And when I gave that (5)statement, I was in Tuzla, on free territory. JUDGE WALD: Right, four days later. I was only bringing it up to see if you thought that might be the explanation for why, since you had just been into free territory for four days after wandering around for (10)months, your sense of the time might not have been as accurate as your later memory. • A.: I remember giving that statement. That's all. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, Judge Wald.
Witness, I think that was your final
statement in a sense. I should like to tell you that
we agree with you that regardless of ethnic origin, all
(20)people responsible of crimes should be judged, we agree
with you. Because the acts committed do not change
their horrible nature depending on the ethnicity of the
perpetrators. They are always horrendous.
Therefore, Witness M, thank you very much for
(25)coming and we wish you a safe journey home.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Don't move now because we are going to have a 15-minute break, but before that, I should like to check whether we are (5)having a witness with the same protective measures which means an open hearing, and there are some exhibits to regulate. Exhibit 120 and 121 of the Prosecution and Exhibit D-15 and D-16 of the Defence. Mr. Cayley, perhaps you could cover all the (10)exhibits together, both of the Prosecution and the Defence. I think regarding the Defence exhibits, we have to bear in mind the need to protect the witness. So we would perhaps tender them under seal and have a redacted version open to the public. (15)Mr. Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I agree entirely with you in respect to the Defence exhibits. That's what I would have suggested what you've stated and I would simply apply for admission into evidence Exhibits (20)120 and 121, the exhibits of the Office of the Prosecutor.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You may be
seated, Mr. Cayley.
Mr. Visnjic, in relation to all these
(25)exhibits, please.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. So exhibits are admitted bearing in mind the (10)confidentiality of the exhibits. That is D-15 and D-16. We will have a version under seal and another after redaction open to the public. You will bear that in mind, Mr. Dubuisson. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Yes, Mr. (15)President.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] And
perhaps you could bring the next witness into the
courtroom during the break. So we're going to have a
15-minute break now. --- Recess taken at 1.28 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good afternoon, Witness N. Can you hear me? (25)
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.
THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly (5)declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. WITNESS: WITNESS N JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated now. The representative of the Registry will (10)now show you a piece of paper with something written on it. It is your name. You will have a look at it and tell us, by saying simply "yes" or "no," if it is indeed your name. THE WITNESS: Yes. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So it is your name that is written on this piece of paper. THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I hope you're comfortable here, Witness. (20) THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I hope you've been well treated by the staff here at the Tribunal. THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I have. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] We shall
MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good a afternoon, Your Honours; good afternoon to my colleagues. (10) • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Witness N, good afternoon. • A.: Good afternoon. • Q.: How old are you? • A.: I'm 60. (15) • Q.: Have you lived in the municipality of Srebrenica all your life? • A.: Yes, I have. • Q.: Are you a Muslim by faith? • A.: Yes, I am. (20) MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the next two or three questions I'm going to ask the witness could in some way identify him, so if I could go into private session for two or three questions only.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes,
(25)Mr. Harmon. We will go into private session.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are in open session. Mr. Harmon, you may continue. (10) MR. HARMON: Thank you. • Q.: Witness N, after the Srebrenica enclave -- after Srebrenica became -- • A.: Yes. • Q.: -- a UN safe area, did you remain in the (15)Bosnian Muslim army or were you released from the army? • A.: I was released. I didn't remain. • Q.: All right. Now, at the time of the takeover of the enclave by the Bosnian Serb army, were you living -- (20) • A.: I cannot remember the date. • Q.: Witness N, let me finish asking my question before you answer, and we will progress very nicely. At the time the enclave was taken over by the Bosnian Serb army, with whom were you living? (25)
• A.: With my wife, my son, my daughter-in-law, a
• Q.: And did you live approximately 15 kilometers from the town of Srebrenica? • A.: Yes, I did. (5) • Q.: Now, Witness N, I'd like to focus your attention on the 11th of July and ask you to remember back to the 11th of July, and could you tell the Judges what you were doing at the time you learned of the attack on the enclave? (10) • A.: On the 11th of July I was collecting hay, together with members of my family. • Q.: Tell the Judges, if you would, Witness N, how you learned about the attack and what you did in response to that information. (15) • A.: When I got home, I saw that my neighbours had gathered at one point, that they had taken their belongings, whatever they could carry, and I asked, "What is going on?" And they told me that somebody from the civil defence had come and told them to leave (20)the village. Women, children and the elderly were supposed to go to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari, and the able-bodied men were supposed to go wherever they could. • Q.: Witness N, did you then go to Potocari? (25)
• A.: Yes, I did.
• A.: My wife went with me, my daughter, my daughter-in-law, and my grandchild. • Q.: And how long did it take you to get from your (5)village to Potocari on foot? • A.: It took us around three hours, over the hills to Potocari. • Q.: Did you arrive in Potocari in the night-time or in the daytime? (10) • A.: In the night-time I arrived in Potocari. • Q.: Do you remember where you and your family took refuge in Potocari? • A.: Yes, I do. We took shelter at the Sacmara factory, the bauxite factory, within the compound of (15)the factory. • Q.: All right, Witness N. Now I'd like to turn your attention to the next day, the 12th of July. And at some point of time on that day did you and did members of your family attempt to board a bus? (20) • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: When you were attempting to board a bus, what happened to you, Witness N?
• A.: Serb soldiers were standing next to our
column, and they grabbed me by the shoulder and they
(25)told me, "Come here, old man. Get out of there."
• A.: My family went in the direction of the buses. • Q.: Did they, in fact, board a bus and did they, in fact, arrive safely in the free territory? (5) • A.: Yes, they did. • Q.: Now, where did you go? • A.: To the left side of the road, and I remained standing there. • Q.: Were you taken to a particular building after (10)you had been separated? • A.: After they had gathered a group of people, 15 to 20 people, Serb soldiers told us that we could no longer stand there, and they told us to go up the hill to a partly finished house. And this is where we (15)went. We entered the ground floor of that unfinished house and sat down, and they stood guard around us. • Q.: Can you describe how the soldiers who separated you and how the soldiers who guarded you at this location were dressed? (20) • A.: They were dressed in green camouflage uniform. • Q.: Witness N, while you were in the building, were there other Muslim men also detained along with you? (25)
• A.: Yes, there were.
• A.: About 200. (5) • Q.: At some point during the period of your detention in that building, did you see General Mladic? • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: Tell the Judges about that particular encounter with General Mladic. (10)
• A.: One of the Serb soldiers, after quite a few
of us had gathered there and after we had asked him why
we had been separated, told us, "I don't know. General
Mladic is coming now, so you can ask him."
And then an officer appeared. He wasn't
(15)wearing any hat, any cap. He had balding, receding
hair. He emerged from the road and he was accompanied
by three or four other Serb soldiers and he came to the
door of the house where we were. And he said, "Hello,
neighbours," and he asked us if we knew him. Some of
(20)us said yes, some of us said no. And then Ratko Mladic
said, "Well, those who don't know me now have an
opportunity to see me." And then I asked him a
question: "General, why are you separating us from our
families?" And he said, "I have 180 Serbs captured in
(25)Tuzla. Your people do not want to release them, so I
• Q.: Let me interrupt you there for a minute, Witness N. How many men were in the bus along with (10)you? • A.: As many as they could put on the bus, because we were being told to move backwards to the bus, and this is how we got in. We were all cramped in that bus. (15) • Q.: Was there a guard on the bus that accompanied you in the direction of Bratunac? • A.: Yes. There was a soldier who was armed with an automatic rifle. It was a Serb soldier. • Q.: Do you remember how that soldier was dressed? (20) • A.: In camouflage uniform. • Q.: What colour was the camouflage uniform? • A.: Green and dark green. • Q.: Now, where did you go in that bus? • A.: We went to Bratunac. (25)
• Q.: And do you know -- did you stop in Bratunac?
• Q.: Did you recognise the location where you had stopped? • A.: I recognised the location after we had passed (5)by a school building. After that we stopped in front of an abandoned warehouse. • Q.: What happened when you stopped in front of that abandoned warehouse? • A.: We found a group of Serb soldiers there, and (10)one of them approached the bus, the driver opened the door of the bus, and he ordered us out of the bus and he told us to march in front of the Serb soldiers. They had made a column, and we were marching in front of them, and this is how we entered the warehouse. (15) • Q.: Approximately how many Serb soldiers were waiting for the arrival of your bus? • A.: Between 10 and 15. • Q.: Do you have any recollection as to how those soldiers were dressed? (20) • A.: They were dressed in camouflage uniforms as well. • Q.: Do you remember the colour, or were you able to distinguish the colour of those uniforms?
• A.: Again, green and dark green camouflage
(25)uniforms. This is how we called them: camouflage
• Q.: Did you and did all of the men who were on the bus in which you travelled get off the bus and go into the warehouse? (5) • A.: Yes, they did. • Q.: And what did you do when you got inside the warehouse building? • A.: We sat down. • Q.: What kind of a room was it that you sat down (10)in? • A.: It was off-white in colour. It had not been properly maintained, that warehouse. • Q.: Do you remember the approximate dimensions of the room where you and the other men sat down? (15) • A.: I think that it was about 15 meters long and 7 to 8 meters wide. • Q.: Now, after you and the men from your bus entered that room in the warehouse, did other Muslim men continue to arrive and fill the room? (20) • A.: Yes, they did. • Q.: Can you describe eventually how full that room was with Muslim men?
• A.: After the last group had been brought in, we
were ordered to stand up and to move to the back, so
(25)that the last group who was outside could also get in.
• Q.: Witness N, do you remember approximately what time of the evening it was when you arrived at this particular warehouse on the 12th of July? • A.: It could have been about 10.00 at night. (10) • Q.: Now, could you tell the Judges your experiences that you had and what you observed happening to the other Muslim men who were in that room that particular night and the early morning hours that followed? (15)
• A.: When we entered, there wasn't enough room,
and we complained that we would suffocate. And then
the Serb soldiers shot over our heads and shouted,
"Keep silent or we'll kill you all," and then we fell
silent. Then someone in the area where we had entered
(20)said, "You 12 have to carry out the assignment given to
you. Do you understand that?" And he was speaking in
a sharp tone. And then a group said, "Yes, sir," as
one. And then Serb soldiers came with flashlights and
they lighted us up. And then they asked where people
(25)were from, the people from Glogova, people from Cerska,
• A.: I was. They introduced themselves. They asked us, "Do you know who we are, whose soldiers we are?" We kept quiet; we didn't reply. And then they would hit each other on the soldier and say, "This one (10)is an Arkanovac," and he would say yes. And then another one would say he belonged to the wolves, Drina Wolves, and he would say yes. • Q.: Now, during the night, in the early morning hours of the following morning, were you given any (15)food? Were you given any water? • A.: When they carried out the dead, we heard two trucks approaching the warehouse. We thought that they would be transporting us somewhere; however, a Serb soldier came to the doorway and said, "I need 10 (20)volunteers, hard-working ones and younger ones, to do something for us." We knew immediately that they would be loading the bodies.
• Q.: Now, Witness N, let me just ask you to answer
the question that I ask, and that is: Did you receive
(25)any water or did you receive any food the night of the
• A.: We didn't receive anything until the morning. • Q.: Now, I interrupted you, and you were telling (5)us about ten men who had been taken out. Would you please continue with your observations and what you recall about that incident. • A.: Then they picked ten men, pointing them out with their fingers. Ten of them went out. There was (10)silence for a while. While we could hear those motor vehicles departing from the warehouse, these ten men of ours never reappeared amongst us again. • Q.: Were toilet facilities available to you and the other men who were being detained in the warehouse? (15)
• A.: Then they allowed us to go to the toilet and
they showed us, as you go out of the warehouse, on the
right-hand side, there was a room to be used as a
toilet. So we went out, and I went out too.
As I was coming from the toilet, I saw them
(20)taking one out of the line of men and taking him to the
left. I saw two men standing on the left-hand side.
There were Serb soldiers, two on the left, three on the
right, and there was one facing the warehouse with an
automatic rifle in his hand and shouting, "Come to me."
(25)And as he went toward him, he had stopped for a
(10) • Q.: Now, when you say "they took men out" and continued killing them, to whom are you referring? • A.: Serb soldiers. I mean Serb soldiers. • Q.: Were they dressed in the same fashion that you've described earlier or were they dressed in a (15)different fashion? • A.: They were dressed in the same fashion. • Q.: Now, what time in the afternoon of the 13th did the killing stop? • A.: About 4.00 in the afternoon, about 1600 (20)hours. • Q.: What happened then?
• A.: Then, again, we heard two motor vehicles
approaching the warehouse. Again, one of the Serb
soldiers asked for ten men to go out to do something
(25)for them. Nobody volunteered, so he selected ten men,
• Q.: What happened then, Witness N? • A.: Then they stopped killing and they said General Mladic is coming now. And he appeared in the doorway, a general of the Serb army, Ratko Mladic. We (10)asked him, "Why are you keeping us here? Why are you choking us here? Why don't you take us some place?" He said, "I haven't managed to negotiate your exchange earlier. We have agreed now, and you will all be exchanged and you're going to Kalesija to be (15)exchanged. But let one of your men count how many you are so that I can determine how many buses I need." One of our men got up, and when he counted us, he said to Ratko Mladic that there were 296 of us. He said, "Sit down and vehicles will be (20)coming to transport you to Kalesija." • Q.: Now there were 296 men reported to be in the room, in the warehouse where you were located? • A.: Yes, yes.
• Q.: To your knowledge, were there other Muslim
(25)men located in other parts of the warehouse, if you
• A.: When they came back, those of them who had taken the dead out of the warehouse, they came back in tears. We asked them, "What's wrong?" And they said, (5)"It's not only that they're killing here, but they're killing somewhere else. They're bringing our men; our men are bringing them and putting them on the same pile." I heard this from the man who had taken out (10)the dead bodies from our warehouse. • Q.: And when you say the men who had taken out the dead bodies from your warehouse room, you're talking about the five dead Muslims who had been -- • A.: Yes, yes, the five dead Muslims that ten of (15)our men carried out. • Q.: And so what is your conclusion, Witness N, based on the conversations that you had with the men who had taken out the dead and returned? Is it your conclusion that there were other Muslim men being (20)detained in the same warehouse but at different parts of the warehouse? • A.: That was our conclusion, that somewhere in the immediate vicinity there must have been other Muslim men that were being killed. (25)
• Q.: Now, at some point in time on the 13th, did
• A.: Yes. Six buses arrived and then the Serb soldiers gave orders that we should get up and form a (5)line one by one, because vehicles had come to transport us. We got up. When I got out, I saw six buses standing in the immediate vicinity. I could recognise Bauxite Milici and Centrotrans Sarajevo; those were the (10)markings on the buses. I didn't recognise the other markings. • Q.: Now, you say Bauxite Milici. Is Milici down in the Srebrenica municipality or in a different municipality? (15) • A.: It is a small town within the territory of Vlasenica municipality. • Q.: And I believe you also said there was another location, another mark on the bus that you noticed. What was the other mark that you noticed? (20) • A.: Centrotrans, from Sarajevo. • Q.: All right. Now, do you know the approximate time that these buses arrived on the 13th? • A.: It was an hour before nightfall. • Q.: Did you get on one of those buses? (25)
• A.: I did. I got on to a bus with Centrotrans
• Q.: How many men besides yourself got on this Centrotrans bus? • A.: There were quite a number standing who didn't (5)have enough seats to sit down, but I didn't count them. • Q.: So all the seats were filled on the bus and there were people standing in the aisle; is that correct? • A.: Yes, yes. (10) • Q.: Now, of the 296 men who were in the room of the warehouse where you were located, were you able to estimate the ages, the range of ages of the men who were in that room? • A.: They were up to 60 and some were over 60. (15)There was some who could hardly move with a stick. • Q.: Do you have an estimate as to the youngest person in the room, in your room? • A.: When we were coming out of the room into the bus, I didn't see any young people. (20) • Q.: Now, did you leave Bratunac? • A.: We did. MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/E/1 placed on the ELMO.
• Q.: I'm going to ask you to indicate on this map,
(25)Witness N, for the benefit of the Judges, the direction
• A.: Yes, I do. I do. I see it. Here it is • Q.: Could you use your pointer and show the Judges your route of travel after you left Bratunac.
• A.: From Bratunac, we went towards Serbia • Q.: Now, let me stop you there for just a minute, Witness N.
MR. HARMON: For the record, on Prosecutor's
Exhibit 1/E/1, the witness pointed to a road that goes
(20)from Bratunac toward the Drina River, in a direction to
the right side of the exhibit, and then follows the
course of the river up through Zvornik to a town which
is marked on the map, called Karakaj. Then the witness
indicated that the bus turned left on a road that is
(25)marked, and there's a town on that which I,
• Q.: Witness N, can you see the -- it looks like Petkovci, so that is -- (5) • A.: Petkovci. • Q.: -- the route that the witness travelled. Thank you, Witness N. MR. HARMON: I'm finished with that exhibit. (10) • Q.: How long did it take you from the time you left Bratunac to the time you got to this destination up near Petkovci, near this school? • A.: Five hours. • Q.: Were there interruptions along the journey, (15)along the route? • A.: Yes, there were several breaks. • Q.: Do you know -- strike that. Were you able to look around in your bus and see how many vehicles in your convoy were going north towards Zvornik? (20) • A.: No, I could only see the bus in front of me. • Q.: Now, on your bus, was there a guard or more than one guard? • A.: There were; one, only one guard, armed with an automatic rifle, wearing a camouflage uniform. (25)
• Q.: Now, let me ask you this: Did you see any
• A.: A bus. • Q.: Were you able to see whether that bus was -- (5)how many people were in that bus? • A.: One could see through the windows that there was a whole line of people standing in the aisle, that there wasn't enough room for everyone to sit down. MR. HARMON: Now, could I have that Exhibit (10)1/E/1 placed back on the ELMO, please, because I may have indicated incorrectly the direction. • Q.: What I'd like you to do, please, Witness N, again take that pointer and -- take your pointer and could you tell me when you got to the town of Karakaj. (15)There appear on that diagram to be two roads; one below the town of Karakaj and one directly above the town of Karakaj. Do you know which of those two roads you took or do you merely recall turning left near the town of (20)Karakaj? • A.: I just remember that we turned left. It was night-time, and the windows of the buses were not very clean, so one couldn't know, and I'm not very familiar with the area either. (25)
MR. HARMON: Thank you, very much.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, I think we need to adjourn. It is time. Shall we (5)adjourn. Yes, Mr. Visnjic, you have something to say?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President,
it is not linked to this witness, but if you have
decided that we should adjourn -- but reviewing the
(10)transcript on page 94 line 7, the last answer given by
the previous witness, Witness M, and his last answer to
Judge Wald's question.
I think during the translation, and I must
say that we all found the witness rather hard to
(15)follow, I think that during the translation, an error
was made, so that the answer of that witness differs
from the meaning in the transcript.
I intervened with the interpreters, and they
will probably be correcting the transcript. So I wish
(20)to make this formal objection so that it shall be
registered.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. Visnjic, thank you very much for drawing our
(25)attention to this problem. What we are going to do is
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you very much, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you too. (10)Before adjourning, Mr. Harmon, in order to see how we are going to work until the end of the week, where do we stand in relation to the witnesses here present in The Hague. Are we going to have a chance to hear them? Are we running the risk of leaving a (15)witness from the end of the week until I don't know when we meet again. So could you give us some information, Mr. Harmon? MR. HARMON: We anticipate completing the testimonies of the witnesses, of all of the witnesses (20)who are here at The Hague, by Friday. In fact, we may end up short of time in which case, we are prepared to present different types of evidence to the Chamber to complete the trial day. We have three witnesses remaining. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
• A.: Thank you Your Honour. (15) --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of April, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
