|
Content
/ Colormap • Page 2940 • {1/115}
(1)Friday, 14th April 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the interpreters. I can hear you too. Thank you. The technical booth, the legal assistants, the Prosecution, (10)the Defence, the court reporters, General Krstic. Good morning to you all. I also wish the public good morning. We already have a witness in the courtroom. I think it is Witness P. You're now going to read the (15)solemn declaration that the usher is going to give you. Please go ahead. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. (20)
THE WITNESS: WITNESS P JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please be seated. Are you comfortable, Witness P? THE WITNESS: I'm fine, thank you. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Have you
THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So please be at ease. I think it is Mr. Harmon who is going to (5)put questions to you, so for the moment you will be answering questions put to you by the Prosecutor. Mr. Harmon, you have the floor. Excuse me. Yes, there is a minor matter that we have to attend to. Witness P, the registrar is (10)going to show you a piece of paper with your name written on it. Look at it, please, and tell us, simply by saying yes or no, whether that is indeed your name. THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So it is (15)your name indeed. THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Fine. So, Mr. Harmon, you have the floor now.
MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President,
(20)Your Honours; good morning, counsel; good morning,
Witness P.
Mr. President, before I begin my examination
of Witness P, I just want to inform Your Honours that
after Witness P we have one additional witness to call
(25)for today, and at the end of the testimony of the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Allow me to say to you that all the witnesses are very special. (10) MR. HARMON: Thank you. • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Witness P, could you tell us how old you are? • A.: I'm 40. • Q.: And are you a Muslim by faith? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Before the creation of the UN safe area of Srebrenica, were you a member of the Territorial Defence? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Were you wounded? • A.: I was wounded on the 16th of June, 1992, by orders of the army command, or rather the Territorial Defence. I was appointed to working on the collection of humanitarian aid in the local community. (25)
• Q.: So following your injury you were released
• A.: Yes. • Q.: At the time of the fall of the enclave in July of 1995, were you a member of the Bosnian Muslim (5)army? • A.: I was not. • Q.: Now, I'd like to focus your attention on the fall of the enclave in July of 1995, specifically on the 11th of July, 1995. At that point in time were you (10)married and did you have children? • A.: Yes. I was married and had four children. • Q.: And could you tell the Judges what happened on the 11th of July that caused you and your family to go in different directions? (15) • A.: We simply received orders from the civilian structures that we had -- all of us had to go to the enclave of Srebrenica. Our assignment was that all of us should go towards Susnjari, especially the men, whereas the men [sic] and women went to UNPROFOR, to (20)Potocari. We got to a hill called Lehovici, where we split up. So all the women and children went to the battalion compound in Potocari and the men towards Susnjari.
• Q.: Why was there a distinction between where the
(25)women went and where the men went?
• Q.: When you say "we couldn't trust them," who (5)are you referring to as "them"? • A.: The Serbs, because when they captured the enclave, they controlled the UN. They took their vehicles. They occupied the enclave. So we didn't dare go to Potocari. (10) • Q.: Now, Susnjari, how many men gathered -- men and boys gathered at that location, approximately? • A.: The figure ranged between thirteen and fifteen thousand, according to the municipal authorities. The figure could not be established, but (15)I think it was between thirteen and fifteen thousand. • Q.: Do you know the range of ages of those males who had gathered at Susnjari? • A.: From 16 to 50 or 60 maybe. Though there were some women, or rather girls, who followed their (20)boyfriends there, men. A smaller number of women, maybe some 200 or 300. • Q.: Are you able to estimate the number of men amongst that group who were armed?
• A.: Well, about one third had weapons in that
(25)group.
• A.: No, I did not. • Q.: Now, I understand that the people in that group of approximately 15.000 people left the enclave (5)in a column; is that correct? • A.: Yes. The column was formed. The order was that we had to pass through Serb lines. So it was about 7.200 kilometers to free territory, to Tuzla, so we had to break through the lines. And the column was (10)formed at the very entrance to the place Buljim, so this column was some ten kilometers long. • Q.: And in which direction did the column advance? • A.: It advanced towards Konjevic Polje. We (15)passed Nova Kasaba and then on towards Tuzla. • Q.: Now, Witness P, I'm not going to ask you questions about your experiences in the woods -- perhaps the Judges would like to inquire about that, perhaps counsel will inquire about that -- but I want (20)to fast-forward the experiences that you had to the 13th of July, when there was a decision taken by you and by others to surrender to the Bosnian Serb army. Can you tell the Judges, did you surrender, and can you tell the Judges why you did? (25)
• A.: Yes. My group -- a relative of mine was
(20) • Q.: Now, you said a number of people committed suicide. Did you see people commit suicide, and do you know why they did commit suicide?
• A.: Yes. Yes, I did see it. I don't know.
There were poisons that were being thrown, poisonous
(25)gases, and people lost control. They knew more or less
• Q.: Now, Witness P, I'm going to ask you to talk just a little bit slower, because the interpreters need (10)to follow your testimony. • A.: Yes, I'll do that. JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me now the group of people who threw the bomb they were from the group of Muslims or the group of Serbs? (15) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Did the people that threw the bomb that you just testified about, were they Muslims committing suicide or were they Serbs killing Muslims? • A.: I think it was Muslims who were killing (20)themselves. I heard that they may have been Serbs too. At that moment, I couldn't distinguish one from the other. They were all mixed together. JUDGE RIAD: And the poisonous gases, they were thrown by the Muslims to commit suicide? (25)
• A.: No, it was the shells with poisonous gases.
MR. HARMON: (5) • Q.: Now, Witness P, how many people along with you went down to surrender on the 13th of July? • A.: I said that there may have been some 30 men in my group; I didn't count them. We had four or five wounded. And on the asphalt road, we came across a (10)large group that had surrendered at Konjevic Polje, there were 300 or so people and they had some 20 wounded. THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask the witness to move away from the microphone, please. (15) MR. HARMON: • Q.: I've been asked by the interpreters if you can move a little bit away from the microphone. Now, Witness P, when you surrendered to the Bosnian Serb soldiers. Can you describe their (20)appearance, how they were dressed? • A.: They were wearing camouflage uniforms in dark blue, dark blue camouflage uniforms. • Q.: Did you see any people in dark green camouflage uniforms? (25)
• A.: Let me see. At that moment, I didn't really
• Q.: Now, do you know the difference between (5)police camouflage uniforms and army camouflage uniforms? • A.: At the time, I didn't, but later I saw on television that there was a difference, but at that moment, I really can't remember whether there was any (10)difference. • Q.: All right. Tell the Judges what happened after you surrendered; where did you go?
• A.: When we carried down the group of wounded to
Konjevic Polje, this group of mine, between 250 and 300
(15)men.
The order was to lay down the wounded at the
cross roads at Konjevic Polje. One of the Serbs told
us that they would take over the care of the wounded.
They put us up in a hangar which used to be a kind of
(20)shopping area and some people started bringing water,
but it wasn't enough. There were only two or three
bucket fulls of water.
We stayed there for some 20 minutes and then
the order came to get on to trucks. I ran out and I
(25)saw three or four trucks. I don't remember exactly
MR. HARMON: Now, let me have Prosecutor's Exhibit 12/4 and place this on the ELMO. (5) • Q.: Witness P, I'm going to ask you if you can identify this location that's depicted in this image. Do you recognise that? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is that? (10)
• A.: This is the stadium at Nova Kasaba. This is
the goal
[indicates] And we stopped here somewhere
next to the trees. This is the road to Konjevic Polje
to Nova Kasaba, and this is where I entered the stadium (15) MR. HARMON: Indicating for the record that the entry into the stadium was midway along the line of trees that boarders the road that goes from the top of the image to the bottom of the image. • Q.: Now, this stadium, this football field, is (20)the location where you said there were thousands of men on it; is that correct? • A.: Yes, yes, yes. MR. HARMON: I'm finished with that image. Thank you very much. (25)
• Q.: Can you tell the Judges, was the football
• A.: I didn't quite understand your question. You (5)mean the Bosniaks? • Q.: Let me ask it again. Did the Bosnian Muslim men cover the entire football pitch, half of the pitch, a quarter of the pitch? • A.: I think that the whole pitch was covered. (10) • Q.: Now, did you see Bosnian Serb soldiers in and around the Muslim men who were detained at the football pitch? • A.: Bosnian Serb soldiers, about 15 to 20 of them were waiting for us at the very entrance gates armed (15)with rifles and they gave us orders. They swore at us and ordered us to enter the pitch. Within the pitch itself, around us who were sitting there, there were Serb soldiers with their guns pointed at us. They were swearing and giving us orders. (20) • Q.: Can you estimate the number of soldiers that you saw around you and the other men at the football pitch?
• A.: I can't give you an exact estimate because,
after all, it was a long time ago, but there were 15 to
(25)20 at the very entrance. As for the total, in any
• Q.: Do you remember how they were dressed? • A.: Also they had camouflage uniforms on. On one (5)soldier, I couldn't notice any rank. He may have had insignia, but they all had camouflage uniforms. • Q.: Now, continue with your -- describing your experiences at the football field, please.
• A.: So when my group entered and when we sat
(10)down, after some 15 or 20 minutes behind my back I saw
an APC of olive-green colour arriving, and I saw
several soldiers around the personnel carrier. And
then a big man came out of the APC, some 30 to 40
metres away from me. And when he passed by me, he
(15)turned around and asked whether we recognised him. I
knew him from the media and he introduced himself. He
said that he was the commander of the Serb army, that
he was General Ratko Mladic.
He was a heavy man with a short cut,
(20)well-shaved with some receding hairlines in a
short-sleeved shirt. And when he stood in front of us,
I don't remember whether it was a podium or a couple of
steps, I don't know.
He started insulting and cursing us. "Where
(25)is your state? What are you dying for? Where is your
• Q.: Let me stop you right there for a moment, Witness P, and ask you two questions. Do you remember approximately what time of (5)the day it was when you and others started to board the trucks? • A.: I think it was about 1700 hours or 5.00 in the afternoon. Somewhere around 5.00, between 5.00 and 6.00 in the afternoon. (10) • Q.: Was the statement made by the Bosnian Serb soldier that you wouldn't need your bags anymore made at about that same time? • A.: Yes. As we were leaving the football pitch and about to climb on to the trucks, I heard one of the (15)Serb soldiers saying when one of our men wanted to pick up his bag. I heard him telling him, "You won't need that bag anymore." • Q.: My last question about this part of your experience: Did you receive any food and any water (20)while you were at the football pitch? • A.: Never. Far from it. I don't know whether anyone asked for any water, but none was distributed anyway.
• Q.: I interrupted you, Witness P, when you were
(25)recounting your story about getting on to the truck.
• A.: Yes. So we climbed on to the truck. I don't
know how many trucks there were that became full at
that point. My truck started out right away. There
(5)was an order for the trucks to move. So we went in the
direction of Konjevic Polje, that is along the same
road we had used to come there, to get there.
When we reached the junction with Konjevic
Polje, the truck turned right again in the direction of
(10)Bratunac. And then we arrived in Kravica. I knew
Kravica very well because I had passed through Kravica
on a number of occasions before the war. And we
stopped near a supermarket.
My truck -- well in my truck, we happened to
(15)count ourselves, and there were 119 people on my
truck. We were sitting on each other's laps on the
floor, on the bed of the truck with our legs crossed.
I was towards the rear part of the truck which was
covered by canvas. Those were very large canvases, and
(20)at the back of the truck, you could see through because
there was a half a metre opening at that point.
So I told you I was sitting in the back of
the truck. And as the truck was turning right, I saw
that there were two trucks behind us. All of them were
(25)facing the direction of Bratunac.
• Q.: Witness P, were there two other trucks
(25)parked --
(5) --- Break taken at 10.08 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.21 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We shall resume, Mr. Harmon. You may continue, please. MR. HARMON: (10) • Q.: Witness P, the technical problem has been resolved and we'll continue with your testimony. Now -- • A.: Thank you. • Q.: I have placed on the ELMO, to your right, a (15)map, and I'd like you to take a look at that map. And if you could use the pointer, first of all, could you point to the location where you were detained at the football field. • A.: At the football field, this was here, between (20)Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje [indicates]
• Q.: And you were taken in a truck to a different
location, where you spent the night, and you've just
been describing your experiences at that location.
Could you point to that location for the Judges,
(25)please.
(5) MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the pointer is on the village of Kravica. Thank you, Witness P. Thank you, Mr. Usher. I'm finished with that exhibit. (10) • Q.: Now Witness P, focusing your attention on the night of the 13th and the early morning hours of the 14th, while you were in the truck, did you receive any water? Did you receive any food? • A.: While we were in the truck, during the (15)morning we got only one bucket of water. I don't know who it was who brought the water, but it was hardly a drop for all of us. You can image. It was only one jerrycan of water, and we were 119. We didn't get any food either. (20) • Q.: Now, do I understand your testimony correctly that in addition to your truck that was at that location in Kravica, there were two other trucks nearby?
• A.: I could see behind my truck two additional
(25)trucks. Whether there were any other trucks, I don't
• Q.: Can you describe the type of uniform being worn by the Bosnian Serb soldiers who were in and around your truck on the night of the 13th and the early morning hours of the 14th? (10)
• A.: I said that they all had a camouflage
uniform. To be perfectly honest, I couldn't tell the
difference. I wasn't familiar with that. And then we
were in great fear. We had been beaten and we didn't
dare look outside. People were cursing at us all the
(15)time. They were mistreating us. And I know that there
was one young man who did not cross over. A Serb
soldier put a gun, the barrel of his gun, in his
mouth. And the situation was terrible. It was so
hot. It was stuffy. People didn't have any water, any
(20)food. And somebody tried and asked for water. It was
total chaos.
And at one point we could hear screams. It
was complete madness. We could hear curses, and this
soldier cursed his balija mother and he put a barrel of
(25)his gun into his mouth. I don't know this man. And he
• Q.: Can you estimate how hot it was? • A.: The outside temperature must have been around 28 or 30 degrees, so I don't know how hot it would have been under a canvas. I don't know what the temperature (15)would be. • Q.: How long did you remain at that location in Kravica before you were transported to a different location?
• A.: At Kravica, on the 14th of July, when it
(20)dawned, mistreatment started again, and we spent the
whole day in the truck again. And sometime in the
afternoon -- nobody had a watch. It had all been taken
away from us on the first day when we surrendered.
Nobody had any watch, therefore. But I know that it
(25)must have been in the afternoon, between 2.00 and 3.00
• Q.: Where did you go? • A.: At that point I heard somebody say that we were going to Batkovic, that the trucks were leaving (5)for the Batkovic camp. And the trucks that had been facing Bratunac turned around and started back towards Konjevic Polje. • Q.: And after the trucks reached Konjevic Polje, in which direction did they travel? (10)
• A.: So my truck continued right, in the direction
of Zvornik, and I could see, driving right behind us,
maybe some 10 meters away from us, started moving as
well. This truck was escorted by two Serb soldiers
with rifles, who -- one of them was sitting next to the
(15)driver and the other one was also in the cabin of the
truck and he was holding his rifle out through the
window. It was pointing out. And we had been told
earlier on in Kravica that should anyone try to jump
out of the truck, that they would kill ten people. So
(20)I know that my truck was moving in the direction of
Zvornik.
We reached Zvornik. I knew the place very
well. But we passed through and continued after
Zvornik, and this is where women and children started
(25)throwing rocks and stones on the buses.
• Q.: Witness P, let me stop you there for a minute? MR. HARMON: And if we could have 1/E/1 again (15)placed on the ELMO, the small map. • Q.: And I'd just like you to indicate on this small map the direction of travel that you took from Kravica up to the area past Zvornik. And I think the map will have to be opened up. And just use the (20)pointer, please.
• A.: Kravica
[indicates], Konjevic Polje
• Q.: Thank you very much. MR. HARMON: And for the record, I think it's fairly clear from his description the route he took (5)between Konjevic Polje and the Drina River. He crossed the Drinjaca River. The rest I think is very clear. He progressed up along the Drina River, past Zvornik, to Karakaj, and left to an area near Petkovci. • Q.: Thank you very much, Witness P. (10) MR. HARMON: And I'm finished with the exhibit, Mr. Usher. • Q.: Now, how long did it take you to travel from Kravica to the school that you've just described? • A.: Well, let me see. When we travelled by (15)public transport, it took about an hour, an hour and a half to reach Zvornik. So this was a little bit further, so about an hour and a half. • Q.: Will you tell the Judges what happened to you and to the other men once you arrived at the playground (20)at the school?
• A.: When we arrived at the playground of the
school, I heard sporadic shooting. Then there was
noise, cursing, yelling. And suddenly my truck
stopped, and when it stopped I saw two other trucks in
(25)addition to mine, facing forward at the school
(5) • Q.: Let me interrupt you before we go on to the next part of your testimony. MR. HARMON: If I could show the witness five exhibits; 21/1, 21/3, 21/4, 21/5 and 21/7. • Q.: I'm going to show you a series of pictures (10)that you've seen before in my office. Let me ask you this, Witness P, did you return to the location of that school with investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: And you identified that school as being the location where you were detained; is that correct? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: I'm going to show you some pictures, a series
of pictures starting with 21/1. I'm going to ask you
(20)if you can identify the buildings that are in that
particular exhibit. Can you identify the buildings in
that exhibit?
First of all, do you see a large parking lot
on the left side of the image? Now, your pointer is on
(25)a building. Can you identify that particular
MR. HARMON: Let's go to Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/3, please. • A.: I really can't find my way, somehow. (5) • Q.: All right. We'll go to the next exhibit. MR. HARMON: Can we go to 21/3, please. • Q.: Now, does this clarify the location for you? • A.: This is the playground. Yes. The school, the entrance to the school. And this is the route we (10)took. MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, there is a flat area where the witness now has his pointer which is the playground. • A.: That is where the trucks were [indicates] (15) MR. HARMON: The building in front of a playground is the school where he was detained. • A.: This is the entrance [indicates] MR. HARMON: Can we now turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/4. (20) • Q.: Do you recognise this picture? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is it? • A.: The steps that I mentioned going down the five or six that lead to the entrance to the school. (25)
• Q.: All right.
MR. HARMON: The witness pointed to the double doors to the right side of the building. Thank (5)you. Could we turn to 21/5, please. • Q.: Do you recognise this picture, Witness P? • A.: Yes. The steps, as I said, the landing and then the -- go upstairs and the iron rails. This is where we were; one, two, three. (10) • Q.: Let me turn to the last picture in Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/7 and ask you if you can identify this location?
• A.: Yes. As I said, the vinyl tiles that I
mentioned that are glued on, and to the left, a
(15)blackboard. This is the classroom, the entrance • Q.: This is the location where you were detained prior to being taken out and put back on the truck? (20) • A.: Yes, yes. I was here somewhere near the blackboard [indicates] Later, I moved closer to the window. You can't see the window in this picture. So I was here somewhere [indicates]
MR. HARMON: When the witness indicates
(25)"here", he's referring to a place directly under the
• Q.: Now, we'll continue with your testimony, Witness P. You said you and other men had boarded a truck. Can you recall approximately how many men were (5)in your truck? You said it was packed? • A.: After all, it was night-time, nor could anyone count, so I don't know the figure. But imagine, 100 or so men at least. It was a big truck I think. • Q.: Would you continue, please, with your (10)testimony, describing the events once the truck started on its next leg of the journey.
• A.: We had climbed onto the truck after the
shooting, and the truck's engine started. As soon as
it started moving from the school, I saw immediately
(15)that it was a bumpy road, and we were swaying left and
right and hitting each other because our hands were
tied. We were standing up.
The truck didn't travel for long, maybe 10 or
15 minutes. I don't know what time it was. I know it
(20)was after midnight. And then suddenly the truck
stopped somewhere. At first glance, I could just see
that there was a little light, that there was some sort
of light reaching us.
And so as soon as we stopped there, we heard
(25)heavy bursts of fire, noise, yells. I just heard
• A.: Well, I didn't make any estimates at the time, but judging by the features of the terrain and the number of people in the school, it must have been between 1.500 and 2.000 people. (10) • Q.: Now, you also said that you observed some heavy construction-type equipment. One was a bulldozer with a scoop. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Are you familiar with construction equipment? (15) • A.: Yes, very much so. I knew these types of construction machines. I had worked with them. There was a bulldozer with "Caterpillar" which had a kind of blade at the front. It was not moving, that machine, the bulldozer, whereas a loader that was standing next (20)to the bodies was. And there was a third machine, a tractor which had a trailer and which transported the bodies. • Q.: Can you identify more specifically the bulldozer with the scoop, the type of vehicle that was? (25)
• A.: Well, there are several types: number 8, 9,
(10) • Q.: Now, you also were taken to the location of the killing field with investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor and confirmed that being the location where you and others had been taken for the execution; is that correct? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Let me show you four exhibits and ask you if you can confirm that the images depict the location -- • A.: I'm sorry. There's one thing that I forgot to mention. When we got out, when we reached the (20)village, from my vantage point I could see the Dam and I could see two very high pillars with floodlights which were on during the night. They were throwing light onto the area, onto the plateau where we had been shot at. (25)
• Q.: Thank you for that addition. I'm going to
MR. HARMON: If I could start first of all, (5)Mr. Usher, with a panorama, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/3, and if that could be shown to the witness first and then placed on the ELMO. • A.: This is easier for me, this one. This is the road. (10) • Q.: You need to place that on the ELMO so -- now, using the pointer, could you just -- first of all, is this the location where the killings took place, Witness P?
• A.: Yes. Yes, it is. So this is the road • Q.: Would you point to the actual location where the killings took place in this particular exhibit, (20)which is 22/3. • A.: [Indicates]
MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, an
area that is below the number 100 and to the right of
the area 50, and further to the right, beyond the
(25)actual rectangle.
MR. HARMON: There is a pile of rocks indicated -- or shown on the diagram -- • A.: Yes. (10) MR. HARMON: -- to the right of the large red rectangle -- • Q.: Mr. Witness -- • A.: And this is the wall [indicates] • Q.: I need to describe where you're pointing, so (15)if you would just remain silent while I have an opportunity to describe the area. Then if you have additional comments, I'll permit you to make them. MR. HARMON: The witness pointed to a pile of rocks which is located to the right of the red (20)rectangle, and it's evident in the upper part of the flat surface area. • Q.: Do you have anything else to inform the Judges about this particular exhibit, Witness P?
• A.: I recognise this wall. I remember it very
(25)well. It is a kind of support wall made of rocks. It
MR. HARMON: Indicating the pile of rocks that's in the lower right-hand corner of that Prosecutor's Exhibit. (5)Now we'll turn to the next Exhibit, Mr. Usher, which is 22/4. • Q.: And I'm going to ask you, very quickly, is this the cement culvert that you described in your testimony? (10) • A.: Yes. This is the concrete ditch. This is where we climbed down and this is where we took shelter, hid ourselves. • Q.: What is the building in the upper right-hand corner of Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/4? (15) • A.: This is the guardhouse which we saw, and another structure next to it. The bulldozer was here, and these are the pillars where the floodlights were. MR. HARMON: Indicating the bulldozer was between the house and the floodlights, which are (20)indicated with a circle on the upper right-hand corner of the exhibit.
• Q.: Now we will turn to the next exhibit very
quickly, 22/6. Is this also a picture of the cement
culvert through which you and your companion found
(25)shelter?
• Q.: All right. Now if we could turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/7. Do you recognise what's depicted in Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/7? (5) • A.: Yes, I do. This is the road, the path leading to the Dam, and this is where we had been shot at [indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating the red oval on the right-hand side of the image. (10) • Q.: Now, you said at some point in time, Witness P, that you left the killing field and you took shelter in an area near some buildings that were nearby.
• A.: Yes. This would have been here, in this area (15) MR. HARMON: Indicating to the left-hand side of the road, the perpendicular road that comes from the top of the image down toward the Dam, to the left of that. • Q.: Now, let me -- (20) MR. HARMON: I'm finished with those exhibits now, Mr. Usher. • Q.: And Witness P, thank you very much for identifying them. Lastly, my last question -- (25)
• A.: Thank you too.
• A.: Yes, in the afternoon of the 18th of July. (5) • Q.: Witness P, I've concluded my examination. Thank you very much. • A.: Thank you. MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I've concluded. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you (10)very much, Mr. Harmon. I think that it would be a good idea to have a short break, perhaps a 10-minute break, and later there would be a longer break, around half past 12.00. At this point we will have a only a 10-minute break. I should like to ask the Defence to (15)try and ask very direct and precise questions for the cross-examination. A 10-minute break. --- Break taken at 11.23 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness P, (20)you're now going to answer questions that will be put to you by Mr. Petrusic who is representing the Defence here. Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Good morning
(25)Your Honours, good morning counsel.
• Q.: Good morning Witness P. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] In accordance with your suggestion, Mr. President, I will try and ask (5)my questions in a specific manner. • Q.: Witness P, on the 11th of July, when you went to Susnjari, did you know that the members of the VRS had confiscated personnel carriers from the United Nations? (10) • A.: Yes, I did. I did know. • Q.: I believe the witness has answered. We do not need any further clarification in respect of this. So when you started out from Susnjari towards Konjevic Polje towards the territory of Tuzla, you said (15)that at one point the Serb soldiers mixed with you. • A.: Yes. • Q.: The Serb soldiers threw hand grenades which, as far as I understand, contained some poisonous gases. (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you tell us, briefly, what kind of consequences did those poisonous gases have? • A.: Well, we became very thirsty and my eyes were smarting and there were tears in our eyes. (25)
• Q.: The fact that the Serb soldiers mixed with
• A.: No, when they threw grenades it was on the (5)first night it was only on the following day that the Serb soldiers mixed with the Bosnian soldiers and civilians who remained in the forest. • Q.: It was on the 12th of July then? • A.: No, it was on the 13th. The ambush was on (10)the 12th of July in the evening and -- • Q.: I apologise. Were there any opposing views amongst the representatives of the Muslim population as regards the situation in which you had found yourselves, whether you should surrender or continue (15)with the break-through? • A.: Could you please repeat your question? I don't quite understand what you mean by "opposing views". • Q.: Well, were there any different views as to (20)what should be done? • A.: You mean amongst the Bosnian population? • Q.: Yes.
• A.: Well, yes, people were trying to reach the
right decision. Some people wanted to surrender, some
(25)were in favour of continuing.
• A.: Well, most probably there were conflicts somewhere. • Q.: At Kasaba at the football field, General (5)Mladic spoke to you? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did General Mladic mention at that point that the units with dogs were at that location? • A.: Yes, he did. He said that there were some (10)special units there with dogs and dog handlers, and that every inch of the forest would be covered by them and nobody would be able to cross the asphalt road. • Q.: After that, you left for Kravica by trucks? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: The Serb soldiers called out people from Glogova, Kravica? • A.: Not from Kravica. • Q.: No, from Kamenica, I'm sorry, Osmac? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: And Zedansko? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And those people would actually come out?
• A.: Well, yes, if they were from those villages.
But people didn't dare speak up. But those who did
(25)were taken out.
• A.: I don't know. Maybe they were their neighbours, they were perhaps looking for their (5)neighbours, people from their area. I don't know. • Q.: Did they mention Kravica, did they look for people from Kravica? • A.: No, not from Kravica. It wouldn't have been possible. I don't understand what you mean. (10) • Q.: While they were calling people out, while they were looking for specific people, people from specific villages, did they also mention Kravica? And my question to you is: Did they ask who had participated in the take-over in Kravica? (15) • A.: I didn't hear that. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I should like to show the witness, very briefly again, the statement that he gave to the investigators of the Tribunal on the 14th, the 15th, (20)the 16th of August of 1995. THE REGISTRAR [Int.] Exhibit D-18. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]
• Q.: On page five of the statement given on the
(25)14th of August, 1995, second passage, the second
• A.: I don't remember. I don't know how this was translated. • Q.: You signed this statement. Did you sign this statement? (10) MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I interrupt? D-18 is a redacted statement so the signature of this witness has been removed. We're prepared to stipulate that the witness did, in fact, sign this statement. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you (15)very much for your remark, Mr. Harmon. I, myself, have realised that the witness is having some difficulties as to his signature. Mr. Petrusic, could you ask your question in a different way? Could you ask him whether he signed (20)the statement, not whether he can see the signature on the statement. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]
• Q.: Witness P, your signature has been redacted
from the statement so we cannot see it. So my question
(25)to you is whether this is, indeed, your statement, the
• A.: I believe it is. I cannot tell you the exact date the statement was given but I think this is my (5)statement. • Q.: When you arrived in the school, the school was a two-storey building, was it not? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Was only the first floor filled with people? (10) • A.: I believe that it was the first floor and the ground floor. This is what I could tell judging from the voices of the people, I believe it was full. • Q.: How many trucks arrived in your group? • A.: I said that there had been three trucks. Two (15)that were at the football field plus my truck. I don't know if there were any trucks later on or before. • Q.: Let us go back to Kravica and then I will finish with my cross-examination. Was there any reason why the Bosnian Serb soldiers would be interested for (20)that place, in particular? • A.: I don't know. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no other questions to ask of this witness. (25)
• Q.: Witness P, thank you very much.
(5) MR. HARMON: I do not, Mr. President. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Judge Riad. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. I have a few questions. Good morning, Witness P. • A.: Good morning. JUDGE RIAD: Let me just try to clarify some (15)points you mentioned from the beginning. You spoke of the column of almost ten kilometres when you were fleeing away and before you surrendered. And you said that one-third had weapons; is that right? One-third of you in the column had weapons. (20)Did you use these weapons, these weapons? Had they been used against the Serbs while you were fleeing? Was there exchange of fire, some kind of fighting or were you just running away?
• A.: There were no combats until the ambush. The
(25)people who had weapons were at the front of the column
(5) JUDGE RIAD: And when you were captured, you were captured because they announced, as you said, they asked you to surrender and that you will be exchanged; is that right, that you will be safe? But in spite of that, in spite of their (10)reassurance, some committed suicide. What promoted this reaction if they knew that they would be exchanged? Did the Serbs give them this assurance? • A.: Well, I think that they simply didn't believe. They didn't dare to believe in their (15)guarantees, that is, that they would be exchanged, because they were killing people. They didn't pay any attention to the age, regardless of whether it was an old man or a child. JUDGE RIAD: So there was killing before that (20)and you could not trust them. That was the feeling you had, that already there was no reason -- there was their precedents of killing? • A.: Yes.
JUDGE RIAD: And when was that, with your
(25)group?
JUDGE RIAD: But your group had started. There was no killing before that. What gave them this conviction that they would not -- that they be killed, (5)beforehand? • A.: I said that there had been an ambush, and a lot of dead bodies were scattered around the forest and people simply couldn't believe that. They were afraid of ending up in their hands. Thousands of people must (10)have remained in the forest, so they couldn't trust them anymore when it comes to the surrender. JUDGE RIAD: It was the ambush. Before that, was there any media announcing or threatening, in the media anything which gave them this conviction? (15) • A.: Yes. Throughout the war people were getting killed, and there was an order, a command, that we should go through the woods. Somebody had issued an order to that effect. People didn't dare. I don't know. They just didn't trust them. They went to the (20)woods. A lot of people got killed in the woods and a lot of people killed themselves in the woods, because they were afraid of ending up in their hands. JUDGE RIAD: You were living in Srebrenica before the 11th of July? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: No. No. We didn't have electricity at all. JUDGE RIAD: Now, at a certain stage, and I (5)follow the question the Defence counsel asked you, certain people were called because they belonged to certain places. You had people coming from Osmac, they were asked to come out and so on. And as you said, after that you heard screams and gunfire. At a later (10)stage, the order came by numbers. They would say, "Bring four people now," "Bring ten people now." Also at this second stage were these ten people or four people, were they more or less coming from a certain place or they would be without discrimination? (15) • A.: You haven't understood me, Your Honour. I said that they were taken out individually, one by one. During the night, while I was in that truck, five people were taken off my truck. I don't know where the Serbs had come from. The trucks had canvases and they (20)stood guard around the trucks all the time. They were working in shifts. So there would always be between 10 or 15 Serb soldiers near the trucks, and they were taking people out. And during that night, five people were taken off my truck. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: All right. I then, I repeat my
• A.: No. I was in classroom number 3. And after my hands had been tied up, I was transferred to classroom number 2, that is, the next-door classroom. (10)And they were not saying anything to that effect, anything involving a village. I could only hear a voice coming from outside the school, or from the entrance I would hear words, "Send me ten of them" or "Send me 20 of them." This is while I was already on (15)the truck. JUDGE RIAD: Ten of them, without saying ten of which village, or anyplace; just ten? • A.: Yes. Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you were asked how (20)many people had been lying in the killing field, you said there would be between 1.500 and 2.000. Was there enough light for you at your escape to see the extent of the lying bodies, or was it too dark? I mean, on what did you base your estimation? (25)
• A.: I could make an estimate on the basis of the
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. • A.: Thank you too, Your Honour. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Riad. Judge Wald.
JUDGE WALD: Witness P, you told us in the
beginning of your testimony that the reason that the
(20)men decided to go or were given orders to go in the
woods toward Tuzla rather than to Potocari was because
they didn't trust the Serbs not to kill them. They
thought they wouldn't get any protection from the UN.
When your group surrendered to the Serbs, what changed
(25)their mind? Why did they feel they would be able to
• A.: It was very simple. The groups had been cut (5)off from the rest of the column, and they had a large number of wounded. And the order was that the wounded should be brought down and that we should all come down to the road. All the while there was a white personnel carrier travelling along the asphalt road, coming from (10)the direction of Konjevic Polje -- this is what I forgot to mention -- moving towards Kravica. And it passed our group and they threw out two bottles of water. And I think that half of the people surrendered and came out onto the asphalt road because they (15)believed it was a UN personnel carrier. And I think that it actually carried Serb soldiers, because they didn't say anything to us; they simply threw out two bottles of water when they passed by us. And again they went back in the direction of Konjevic Polje. (20)
JUDGE WALD: You said you had a large group
of wounded that you carried down at the time of
surrender. Had most of those wounded been wounded in
crossfire of an ambush, or had they been wounded just
by the shelling from the Serbs? I mean, had they been
(25)wounded in an actual crossfire between the armed people
• A.: Part of the group was exposed to a shelling and part of the group -- people from the group were (5)wounded in the ambush that took place on that night. JUDGE WALD: During the ambush there was crossfire, right, between the Muslims who were armed in the column and the Serbian soldiers. Okay. Now, you mentioned about this incident with (10)the poisonous gas that made the throat get thirsty and the eyes sting. Are you familiar with what's known as tear gas? I mean, sometimes police use it to break up crowds in demonstrations. It brings tears to your eyes, but it doesn't have -- so far as we know, it (15)doesn't immediately blind anybody or anything like that. Was this something like tear gas, or was it anything you were familiar with before? • A.: I couldn't tell you, Your Honour. I don't know. I just heard someone saying at one point that (20)poisonous gases had been thrown at us. I wasn't very familiar with it. And I tried protect myself, to protect my face, and I was looking for a shelter.
JUDGE WALD: Did this happen only once? Was
this just one incident of poisonous gas or did it
(25)happen other times, or did you hear other people say
• A.: I heard it from a number of people who were there, who were ambushed. I don't know what happened elsewhere or later on. I'm referring to the ambush (5)that took place on the night between the 12th and the 13th of July. The ambush was at the location called Kamenicko, called Brdo. JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: You said that from the burnt-out Bosniak village you were (10)able to see this artificial lake near the killing fields, the one where the aluminum company dumped its refuse. Could you estimate the time it would take to drive from the killing fields to that lake? What would you guess or think it would take? How long to make the (15)drive from the killing fields to that lake? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness P, just a second. I'm sorry to interrupt. Mr. Visnjic, you were about to say something, probably in relation to "Tihomir Blaskic." I myself (20)didn't get that as a translation or interpretation. Were you going to point to that? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President, you're right.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Well, I
(25)didn't hear it in the French interpretation, but on the
JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry. I don't know what -- on my transcript, I don't see what question -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm afraid it has already disappeared from the screen. I don't (10)know whether it has something to do with the method used by the court reporters. Maybe we should pay attention to this aspect, we should be mindful of this particular feature of the transcript. It had something to do with a question that you asked of the witness (15)regarding tear gas which the police sometimes uses and the poisonous gas that the witness was trying to describe. Mr. Harmon, you might help us, perhaps.
MR. HARMON: I saw the name "Tihomir Blaskic"
(20)and thought it was the wrong case, but it was at a
point in the transcript at 20.02.12 and it was in
response -- this witness gave an answer, and what I
wrote down was: "I just heard at one point that
poisonous gases Tihomir Blaskic ..." and it went on.
(25)So that's the point that Mr. Visnjic stood up.
(5) • A.: I think it was something like that, because the rumour spread among the people that something had been thrown. JUDGE WALD: All right. We'll take that as your answer to the question. Now, I think we're still (10)in the middle of the last -- well, okay. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I think it would be sufficient to hear the transcript. (15)The witness didn't mention Tihomir Blaskic. He used a word in Serbo-Croatian that sounded like this. JUDGE WALD: Okay. That's helpful to know that. But we have his answer later on to the straight question anyway. (20)So just to answer my last question which I had asked you about, how long you would have estimated it took to drive from the killing field to the Dam, the artificial lake?
• A.: We could only see from the village where our
(25)men were. We could see that lake and the field where
JUDGE WALD: Okay. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Wald. I think the question of transcript will be resolved as usual. The court reporters have heard the (10)answer and will make the necessary corrections so there is no point in wasting too much time. But it has been registered in the transcript that there was a problem. Witness P, I also have some questions for you. The 13th of July, the call for surrender by Serb (15)soldiers. In that call, they mentioned Geneva Conventions [Realtime transcript read in error "general Eva"] could you remind us in what context they mentioned the Geneva Conventions?
• A.: I think that they were guaranteeing the
(20)safety of our lives and an exchange. That was at least
my opinion because I had a wounded relative, and when
they mentioned the Geneva Conventions that nobody could
be hurt, that we would all be exchanged. So my opinion
was that they would guarantee our safety, our transfer
(25)to free territory either by exchange with their
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So we have another type of convention. The Geneva Conventions, I think all these things have to be reviewed. We are (5)talking about the Geneva Conventions and not the "general Eva conventions". Another question, did they expressly use the words Geneva Conventions? • A.: Yes, I personally heard them over the loud (10)speakers saying that we would all be exchanged in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] My second question. Nova Kasaba, the football pitch, the whole pitch was covered. My question, were the people (15)sitting or standing or both? • A.: When I arrived, everybody was sitting down. My group and those who came after me, we all sat down on the grass field of the pitch. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General (20)Mladic arrived. Did he come alone or in the company of others?
• A.: I just saw the APC coming and I saw certain
soldiers who were standing right next to the APC. At
that moment, I didn't see whether anyone else came out
(25)with him, I don't remember. Of course there were the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] When you left the football pitch, you were boarded on trucks. (5)Those trucks, were they already there when you arrived or did they come after you? • A.: I didn't see them having come there before us because trucks were passing by all the time. They were driving women and children from Potocari so trucks and (10)buses were passing by. Some were going towards Konjevic Polje, and the others were passing towards Kasaba. So I don't know whether those trucks had come there from Kasaba and were waiting for us or did they come from some other place specially. I just know that (15)they were empty when we came off the field and started boarding them. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] While you were at the football pitch, did you see buses passing in the direction of Bratunac-Konjevic Polje with the (20)women and other people?
• A.: Yes, yes, we did see trucks and buses passing
from Konjevic Polje towards Kasaba. And in the
opposite direction, there were empty buses going
towards Konjevic Polje probably to Potocari again to
(25)fetch some more women and children.
• A.: First of all, I should like to thank the International Community and this Tribunal that the truth, at least about Srebrenica, should be proven and that some kind of justice is served although that is (10)difficult to do and that everybody should be punished for this preconceived genocide in Srebrenica. Let us take into account merely the fact that each family in Srebrenica has lost two or more family members. I lost 20 family members. My brother, their (15)wives, aunts, cousins and so on. So I wish once again to thank the International Community and, if it can, to resolve this problem of genocide and for all the perpetrators to be punished. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, Witness P, for coming.
You have many years before you to live. I
think you have a very good reason to live, and that is
through your actions and words, you should contribute
(25)to a world avoiding a catastrophe of this kind, and I
(10) MR. HARMON: I don't have any exhibits. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, then. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence would like to tender into (15)evidence Exhibit D-18, but it seems to me that the -- some redactions need to be made in the Serbian version which the witness has, but the English version has already been redacted to remove all names that might reveal the identity of the witness or other protected (20)persons. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: I only have a couple comments
(25)about this exhibit, but I need to go into private
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. Dubuisson, shall we go into private session now,
(5)please.
Please be seated, Mr. Petrusic.
(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I see we are in open session now. I think, Mr. Harmon, that it would be better to have the break, which we had planned before, to have it now, give the opportunity to Witness P to leave, and (10)when the Chamber comes back, the other witness will be in the courtroom. Will he have the same protective measures as this one, Mr. Harmon? MR. HARMON: He will. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Witness P, good-bye. We wish you a safe journey home. We're going to have a half hour break now and we will resume work by hearing the next witness.
• A.: Thank you too, Your Honours. --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good
(25)afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me? Can you hear
THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You're going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is (5)going to give to you, please. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS Q JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated, Witness. The registrar is going to show you a piece of paper with your name written on it. You're going to look and tell us, yes or no, if that is your (15)name. THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So that is indeed your name. Are you comfortable? Are you at ease? (20) THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You are now going to answer questions which the Prosecutor, in this case, Mr. McCloskey, is going to put to you. Mr. McCloskey, you have the floor. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
• Q.: Witness, you know I'll be asking you some questions, and please just do your best to answer them. And if you don't know an answer, that's fine, or (5)if you can give us estimates or rough estimates about certain things, just do your best. Do you understand that? • A.: I'll do that. • Q.: Okay. And how old are you? (10) • A.: I'm 28. • Q.: And are you a Muslim by faith? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And I want to take you back to July 11th, 1995. Where were you living then? (15) • A.: Srebrenica, the village of Suceska. • Q.: And who were you living with? • A.: I was living with my parents and my wife. • Q.: And what did you decide to do on July 11th? • A.: I decided to go to Jaglic and the family to (20)Potocari. • Q.: Why did you decide to go to Jaglic? • A.: I didn't dare to go to Potocari. • Q.: Why not? • A.: Well, I was afraid they would kill me. (25)
• Q.: The Serb soldiers that took over the town of
• A.: Yes. • Q.: And about what time on July 11th did you get to Jaglic? (5) • A.: It must have been dark already. • Q.: Can you give us a rough estimate of how many people were assembled there at that time? • A.: Ten to fifteen thousand. A large crowd. • Q.: And what did the crowd decide to do? (10) • A.: They decided to head for Tuzla. • Q.: How did you get the word that that was the decision? • A.: I heard the other men talking. • Q.: And when did you decide -- or when did you (15)actually head out with the group and go towards Tuzla? • A.: On the 12th, in the afternoon. • Q.: So you were near the -- farther back of the column, I guess. • A.: [No interpretation] (20) • Q.: So did you spend one night in the woods, and then, when you got near the Nova Kasaba area, get captured, on the 13th, in the morning? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Can you tell us about your capture, how that
(25)happened? Can you just try to explain a little bit who
• A.: Yes. I was with ten other men. We were going to cross the asphalt road. However, Serb (5)soldiers captured us. We didn't manage to cross. • Q.: And did anybody in the group of your ten have any weapons? • A.: Yes. One had a pistol only. • Q.: And what happened to the pistol? (10) • A.: They seized it, the Serb soldiers. • Q.: Did you get in any firefight or any exchange of fire with this group of Serb soldiers, or did they just surround you and capture you? • A.: They just surrounded us and captured us. (15) • Q.: And what happened after that? What did the Serb soldiers do with you, your belongings, and where did they take you? • A.: They took away our bags with food in them, then they ordered us to put our hands behind our heads (20)and to proceed towards Nova Kasaba. • Q.: And about what time did this happen on the 13th? • A.: About seven o'clock in the morning. • Q.: And where did they take you? (25)
• A.: To the elementary school in Kasaba. I think
• Q.: Serb troops were in the barracks? • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Can you tell how many Serbs were in the barracks at that point when you were put there? • A.: A group of some 10 to 20 people. • Q.: And where were you put? • A.: In a small room, like a kind of prison. (10) • Q.: Did you see any Dutch soldiers around these barracks anywhere? • A.: No. • Q.: And had the VRS soldiers provided you with any water or food yet at this time, when you were first (15)put into the barracks? • A.: Yes. • Q.: When did they give you any water? When did they first give you water? • A.: Maybe after some 20 minutes. (20) • Q.: Were there wounded among you when you came out of the woods and were captured? • A.: No. • Q.: And what happened when you were in the barracks, if anything? (25)
• A.: I heard the voice of a woman crying out near
• Q.: The Serb soldiers went outside the barracks somewhere where you heard these noises coming from, and (5)brought a man back? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And this was a Muslim man? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And eventually were you taken somewhere else (10)that day outside of those barracks? • A.: Yes. • Q.: About what time were you taken outside of the barracks, and where were you taken? • A.: At 2.00, they ordered us to put our hands (15)behind our backs, to go in line one by one towards the stadium. • Q.: And were you and your group then marched down the road to the stadium? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: When you say the stadium, what kind of a place was this? • A.: It was a football pitch. • Q.: And were you still in Nova Kasaba? • A.: No, a little bit further from Nova Kasaba. (25)
• Q.: Just right outside Nova Kasaba?
• Q.: And do you know roughly how many soldiers that were guarding your group as you were walking towards the football pitch? (5) • A.: Two to three soldiers. • Q.: And what were they wearing? • A.: Camouflage uniform. • Q.: Was that the same kind of uniform the soldiers that captured you were wearing? (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I heard him say "yes", but I didn't hear a translation. THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be placed closer to the witness, please. MR. McCLOSKEY: (15) • Q.: Were the soldiers that captured you different from the soldiers that were guarding you around the barracks? • A.: They had the same uniforms, but they weren't the same ones. (20) • Q.: How about the soldiers that took you to the football pitch? Were those the same soldiers that were guarding you at the barracks or were those different soldiers? • A.: Could you repeat the question, please? (25)
• Q.: The soldiers that took you to the football
• A.: They were different soldiers. (5) • Q.: Do you know roughly how many soldiers were guarding you at the barracks? • A.: A group was in the barracks. There was some outside as well. Ten to twenty soldiers in all. • Q.: And when you got to the football pitch, can (10)you describe the scene there; how many people, who were they, what was happening? • A.: There were about 1.500 to 2.000 men who were sitting on the field in rows surrounded by Serb soldiers. (15) • Q.: So 1.500 to 2.000 Muslim men; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you give me an estimate of how many Serb soldiers you saw around them? • A.: There were quite a number of them. I really (20)don't know the number. There was an APC behind our backs. The soldiers were all around surrounding the playing field. There was no more than a metre between each one of them and the next one.
• Q.: Did you see any other equipment besides this
(25)APC?
• Q.: What else did you see? • A.: I saw two more APCs on the asphalt road, and a UN APC from which no one came out. It was just (5)standing there. • Q.: And were all these soldiers that were around the Muslim men, were they armed? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And this football pitch, how much of the (10)football pitch was taken up by these Muslim men? • A.: More than half. • Q.: And did you see any Muslim men continue to arrive while you were there at the football pitch? • A.: Yes, I did see it. (15) • Q.: And in what direction were they arriving from? • A.: They were coming from Konjevic Polje along the asphalt road, and they brought some from the woods. There was some who were wounded too. They (20)bandaged the wounded and put them to the other side. • Q.: Who bandaged the wounded Muslims? • A.: The Serb soldiers. • Q.: About how many wounded Muslims did you see get bandaged by the Serb soldiers? (25)
• A.: Ten or so.
• A.: On foot. (5) • Q.: And can you tell us what you remember happening while you were there at that football pitch?
• A.: The soldiers told us that General Mladic
would come. And a short while later he came escorted
by two cars and he held a speech. He told us that we
(10)would all be exchanged and that they were not
criminals. He said that we should have all surrendered
because not a bird could pass through their lines as
there were hundreds of their lines. And he said that
we would go to Bratunac for lunch. And that he would
(15)organise groups to collect the wounded in the woods,
and for the dead to be buried where their families want
them to be buried.
Then he ordered the soldiers to make a list
of the names of all those captured. At that moment, a
(20)prisoner got up and the Serb soldiers approached. They
kicked him and hit him with their rifle butts. And
then one soldier took out his pistol and killed him.
And he was thrown into the other. Mladic was present.
He didn't respond in any way.
(25)A camera was shooting the prisoners and
• Q.: Did you put your name on this list? • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: And did you see others put their name on this list? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you tell if you were being filmed when you had to put your name on the list? (10) • A.: No. • Q.: When you eventually left that football pitch, about what time was it? • A.: It was close to dark, maybe an hour before night fell. (15) • Q.: And how were you transported away from this football pitch? • A.: Buses came. They stopped. They ordered us to get into the buses. When the buses were full, we started towards Konjevic Polje. We passed through (20)Konjevic Polje towards Sandici. To the left, I saw a group of men who were sitting down in a circle surrounded by Serb soldiers. • Q.: Was this near Sandici that you saw these men sitting in a field surrounded by Serb soldiers? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: I saw near Kravica on the right a kind of hangar and dead people at the entrance. MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we show the witness (5)Exhibit 8/4. And can we first let him take a look at that far right-hand side of the picture and then if we could put that on the ELMO. • Q.: And Witness, if you could pick up the pointer and point out on the picture itself that sits on that (10)funny machine next to you where you saw the bodies. • A.: Here [indicates] MR. McCLOSKEY: And the record should indicate that the witness has pointed to the centre of the large opening in the centre of the photograph. (15) • Q.: As you were driving by, were you able to tell how many bodies were there? • A.: Four or five bodies. • Q.: Could you look all the way in the warehouse, or were these just the ones that were near the opening? (20) • A.: Those were bodies that were close to the opening. • Q.: Did you notice any damage to the building that the bodies were in as you drove by it?
• A.: Yes. The traces of bullets could be seen on
(25)the building.
• A.: I heard shooting behind the hangar. • Q.: Thank you. That's fine. And shortly after (5)driving by Kravica, did you arrive to Bratunac? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And did you stop in Bratunac? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And did you spend the night on the bus in (10)Bratunac? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Do you remember what was written on the side of the bus that you were in? • A.: "Boksit Trans-Milici" was written on the bus. (15) • Q.: What kind of bus was it? Big bus, small bus? • A.: A big, double bus. • Q.: And how full of Muslim men was it? • A.: It was very crowded. (20) • Q.: On your trip from Nova Kasaba to Bratunac, were there any Serb soldiers on that bus with you? • A.: Yes. • Q.: How many? • A.: Two. (25)
• Q.: Were they armed?
• Q.: And wearing camouflage uniforms? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And when you got to Bratunac and stopped, (5)could you tell where you were? • A.: I knew that that is -- they said that we were going to Bratunac. I saw the town, so I assumed it was Bratunac. • Q.: Do you know where you stopped, what kind of (10)buildings were around you where you stopped and spent the night on that bus? • A.: I think there was a school nearby. • Q.: And were there other vehicles that also stopped in Bratunac around the same location you were? (15) • A.: There were smaller cars. • Q.: Any buses or trucks full of Muslim men at the location where you were besides your bus? • A.: There were more buses behind me. • Q.: Could you tell how many might have been there (20)that night? • A.: Four or five buses. • Q.: And could you tell if they were filled with Muslim men?
• A.: I couldn't see, but I think that Muslims were
(25)inside.
• A.: We heard shooting throughout the night, and they would take people out of the bus who never came (5)back to the bus. • Q.: How many people, if you know, were taken out of your bus that didn't come back? • A.: Four or five. • Q.: And that was Serb soldiers that took them out (10)of the bus? • A.: I think they were, because we didn't dare look. Our heads were bowed down. • Q.: Did a Serb soldier stay on your bus all night guarding you? (15) • A.: No. They were outside. • Q.: How many Serb soldiers were you able to see outside your bus and around that area that night? • A.: I don't know exactly, but a lot of them were passing by the buses. (20) • Q.: More than 20, less than 20? • A.: Fifteen to twenty. • Q.: Okay. And the next morning, what happened? That would be the morning of July 14th.
• A.: Yes. The driver got out. He had started the
(25)engine and he had turned on the heating and then got
(5) • Q.: How long were you in that bus with the heat going? • A.: Two to three hours. • Q.: Did they give you any water while the heat was going on that bus on that day? Sorry, you have to (10)answer a little bit out loud. I know this is not easy, but the microphone didn't pick up your answer. Were you given water while the heat was going on the bus? • A.: No. • Q.: So finally when this soldier showed up and (15)says you're going to be exchanged, shortly after that did the bus -- did your bus start to leave? • A.: It started to leave, perhaps not right away, but maybe half an hour later. • Q.: And did your bus drive northward up towards (20)and through Zvornik and up to the area of Pilica? • A.: Yes. First it was driving along a macadam road which at one point became asphalt road. We were not allowed to watch, but I noticed that it was going towards Zvornik. (25)
• Q.: And where, when you got to the Pilica area,
• A.: The bus stopped above the school, and the soldiers ordered us out and told us to run up towards the school, and they put us in a hall which was (5)completely crowded. • Q.: Okay. How many soldiers were on your bus trip from Bratunac to Pilica school? • A.: You mean on the buses, in the buses, how many soldiers there were? (10) • Q.: Yes. How many soldiers were in your bus when it drove from Bratunac to the Pilica school? • A.: Two soldiers. • Q.: Were those soldiers you recognised from your time in Bratunac, or were these two new people? (15) • A.: I think they were different, two new people. • Q.: And they were armed? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And when you arrived at the school, how many soldiers did you see outside the school and around the (20)bus that you got off of? • A.: There were 15 to 20 soldiers. • Q.: And how were they dressed? • A.: In camouflage uniform. They were armed.
• Q.: And this place they took you, can you
(25)describe what kind of a hall it was?
• Q.: And when you first arrived in this gymnasium, how many Muslim men were in the gymnasium before you? (5) • A.: Less than half. Later on the hall filled up. • Q.: Could you tell how many buses were -- or trucks were travelling along with you on your trip to Pilica? • A.: I think four to five buses. (10) • Q.: And could you tell if there were any Muslim men in any other part of the school besides the gymnasium where you were? • A.: Yes, I noticed some people on the steps. There was a very wide stairway leading to the upper (15)floor. Some were standing and some were sitting, and we passed by on our way to the gymnasium. • Q.: Okay. After you were put in the gymnasium that first day at the Pilica school and it filled up with people, did you volunteer to go get water? (20)
• A.: Yes, I volunteered together with four other
men. We took some buckets and we went down the wide
stairway which was on the other side past the football
field. And further down, there was a tower and a water
point with two fountains.
(25)When we got there, it was already dark and we
• Q.: What kind of noise did you hear before you heard the shooting? • A.: I could hear people crying for help. • Q.: And could you tell what area around the (10)school these cries of help were coming from? • A.: Could you please repeat your question? • Q.: Could you tell what direction or what area these cries of help were coming from? • A.: Yes, from behind the school. (15) • Q.: And you'd heard a vehicle arrive before hearing the cries of help; is that right? • A.: Yes. I think I could hear a bus. • Q.: Was the sounds of that bus and the cries of help from the people coming from the same general area? (20) • A.: Yes.
MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could show the witness
Exhibit 23/1. Could we use one that doesn't have
markings on it. I've got my copy of 23/1. I hope that
doesn't confuse things too much but, I'm sorry, I
(25)didn't realise that had all those markings.
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Well we'll take care of that after the witness, I think, if that's all right. • Q.: Now, Witness, if you take a look at this photograph which has been placed on the ELMO. And (10)first of all, could you point with your pointer the area where the bus pulled up that you were in the day you arrived at the school? • A.: The bus stopped here [indicates] MR. McCLOSKEY: Indicating for the record the (15)asphalt road or the -- well, the road right in front of the school. • Q.: And where did you enter the school? Can you point us out the entrance that you went in with that pointer? (20)
• A.: Yes. This way
[indicates] and then here
MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, the
witness went around to the left of the school building
and then into a side entrance near the building that is
(25)perpendicular to what looks like the main building in
• Q.: And is that building that you've got your pointer on the gym? • A.: Here [indicates] (5) • Q.: Yes. Is that the gym, that's where you went to? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And can you now show us the route you took to get the -- to go down and get the water where you heard (10)these screams and the shooting? • A.: I got out here [indicates] There are some steps here. We went across the football pitch, past the tower and reached this area here [indicates] MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And for the record, (15)the witness went out the back of what appears to be the back of the gym by what looks like a big concrete playground, past the playground, in front of the tower and down into some trees. • Q.: Was it down by the water that you heard the (20)bus arrive and the people call for help? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And shortly after that is when you heard shooting? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: How long did that shooting go on for?
• Q.: Could you still hear the shooting when you (5)were in the gymnasium? • A.: No. • Q.: Do you know about what time of day it was when this shooting started? • A.: It was already dark. (10) • Q.: And that was the night of the 14th? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you describe what occurred in the gymnasium that night, the night of the 14th, when you and all the men were crowded inside that gymnasium? (15) • A.: Yes. It was stuffy. Two or three men died there from lack of air. • Q.: What happened to their bodies? • A.: I think that they were taken out by our people. (20) • Q.: Was anyone given any medical treatment in that gym that night? • A.: No.
• Q.: Was the water that was brought back by you
and your group enough to provide everyone with enough
(25)water?
• Q.: Did these soldiers provide anyone in that gym with any food that night? • A.: Yes. I went out. I went to the toilet, and (5)I know that when I got in, I fainted. And when I recovered, when I came to, I was in the corridor. A soldier gave me some pate and a piece of bread and took me back to the gym. • Q.: Did you see anybody besides yourself get any (10)food that night? • A.: No. • Q.: And did you spend all the next day inside the gym? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: That was July 15th. What happened in the gym, if anything, on that day, on July 15th, with all the people crowded in there? • A.: They were taking men out. I'm sorry, I made a mistake. Could I start again? (20) • Q.: Sure.
• A.: On that day, Serb soldiers arrived and they
took jewellery, watches, money from those who had
them. Then they came later on again. They were asking
for German marks, and they told us if we don't manage
(25)to collect the money, that we would all be killed.
MR. McCLOSKEY: We're done with the exhibit. Thank you very much. I'm sorry. THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned the (5)amount of money, but we couldn't hear him. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Witness, I'm informed that you need to speak up a little bit more, and could you tell us the amount of money again? (10) • A.: 10.000 German marks. • Q.: Did anything come of any of that? • A.: No. No, because nobody had that money. Whatever people had had already been taken away by the Serb soldiers. (15) • Q.: Okay. And then what happened after they tried to take all the people's money and their valuables? • A.: After that, the next night, the men were being taken out from the gym. Some would come back, (20)some didn't. The next day, I noticed that there were fewer of us in the gym. • Q.: So that night, you're talking about the night of July 15th and the morning of July 16th, you noticed there weren't as many people in the gym; is that right? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: No. • Q.: And were there any soldiers inside the gym (5)guarding you during your stay there or did they stay outside the gym itself? • A.: Yes, they were at the entrance to the gym. • Q.: Could you tell how many Serb soldiers were outside the entrance of the gym and were around the (10)school area during your stay at the school? • A.: There were two to three soldiers at the entrance. There was a group of them in the corridor, perhaps five to ten people. There may have been 20 of them in total over there. (15) • Q.: Now, you spent two nights at this school, the 14th and the 15th. Do you know if the Serb soldiers changed shifts, or was it the same group the whole time you were there? • A.: I think that they changed shifts, but I'm not (20)sure. • Q.: Okay. On the morning of July 16th, what happened?
• A.: Serb soldiers came, and one of them said that
some people thought that they had killed a number of
(25)young men, and he said, "Let all the young men leave
• Q.: Why don't you tell us, continue to tell us this story of what happened.
• A.: When the buses stopped, soldiers started
(20)taking out groups of people who were tied up. They
were taking them in one column. They had to put their
hands behind their backs. Those were groups of ten
people which were taken to the area where the dead
bodies were, on the meadow, and this is where they were
(25)killed. And then they would shoot at each one of them
MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness Exhibit 24/5. Excuse me. It's now 24/5/1. My mistake. (15) THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] At the end of the transcript I will correct what was said a moment ago. The previous exhibit was 23/1/1. MR. McCLOSKEY: Could you move that over a little bit so that black dot -- there we go. (20) • Q.: Now, last night in my office you had a chance to look at this photograph, and could you first take the pointer and point to where your bus stopped. • A.: Here [indicates]
MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And for the record,
(25)he's pointing at the road that has vehicles on it that
• Q.: Can you show us the direction that Muslim men (5)were marched to the killing fields? MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And for the record, the witness has just shown us that they walked across a big open field, over to the area of a black spot. • Q.: Now, did you have a chance to write in that (10)black spot, or I helped you write in that black spot last night? • A.: I knew where it was. This is where the execution took place. And there is more over there. • Q.: And is that black spot roughly where you were (15)when they tried to execute you? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And how many soldiers did you see taking part in the execution? MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we're done with that (20)exhibit. Thank you. • A.: Ten soldiers. • Q.: And how many were taking part in the escorting of the victims over to the killing fields? • A.: Three or four soldiers. (25)
• Q.: And you said you saw a machine-gun and
• A.: Yes. • Q.: What kind of machine-gun was that that you (5)saw in the hands of the executioner? • A.: M-84. M-84. • Q.: And while you were lying there, did you hear a vehicle arrive and unload something? • A.: I did. That was in the evening. We heard a (10)vehicle. It came close to me. It unloaded something and went away again. Later, during the night, I saw that they were the bodies of killed men that were brought there. • Q.: All right. Now, I'm going to -- we're going (15)to go a little quicker now. I'll ask you a few questions which you can answer yes or no, and if you feel like you need to explain them, that's okay too. But did you spend the night on the killing field there? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: And the next day you spent some time hiding under a bridge? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: And were you able to hear anything coming
from the direction of the killing fields while you were
(25)hiding under that bridge?
• Q.: What? • A.: I heard the sounds of machines. I couldn't see it, but I could hear it. I could hear vehicles (5)moving, nonstop, towards that place, and going back again. This went on all day. • Q.: And a short time later did you come across an older man, whose name you know? But don't say who it is. (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And did you and he travel together for a few days and then meet another man? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And did that second man eventually get lost (15)from you and the older man? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And then did you and the older man finally decide to turn yourselves in? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: And why did you decide to do that? • A.: We couldn't walk any further. We were exhausted. We hadn't had anything to eat since our capture.
• Q.: And after you turned yourself in, did you go
(25)to a cafe where a Serb man looked after you?
• Q.: Can you describe that? • A.: Yes. When they captured us or rather when we surrendered, a small bus, a mini bus, there were two (5)military policemen in it. They took us in and they drove us to a shop. They got off, sat at a table to have a drink, we stayed in the bus. Then a man came up to us, gave us each a packet of cigarettes and a pint of fruit juice, a litre (10)and he introduced himself but I've forgotten his name. He asked us whether we were hungry. We said we were. He took us to give us food to eat and he made us coffee. Then they put us back on the bus and took us back to Karakaj. (15)In Karakaj, there was a military truck with some 20 men on it who had also been captured. I got on to the truck, I got on to the truck. They put hand cuffs on my hands. And we were driven to Batkovici, to the camp there. (20) • Q.: What day, if you recall, were you finally released and made free? • A.: From the camp? • Q.: Yes, from the camp. • A.: On the 26th of the December, 1995. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions,
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think that we need a break now. Perhaps a short break, 15 minutes. And then the Defence will ask its questions. (5) --- Recess taken at 2.05 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.21 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness Q, you are now going to answer questions which Mr. Petrusic, the Defence attorney, will ask you, (10)please. Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Your Honours. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: (15) • Q.: Good afternoon sir? • A.: Good afternoon. • Q.: You lived in Suceska from 1992 until Srebrenica fell? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Do you know that in that location, Mr. Zulfo Tursunovic lived there and was militarily active there? • A.: Yes. • Q.: He was one of the commanders in the military establishment? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: No. (5) • Q.: The rallying of the population of that age group in Susnjari, did that take place spontaneously? • A.: What do you mean? Could you explain that to me? • Q.: When I say "spontaneously", I mean that there (10)was no order issued by anyone, any individual or body belonging to the military or the political leadership of the area? • A.: I don't know. I know I heard from others that we were going to Jaglici, to Susnjari. I never (15)saw Zulfo, I think he must have left before then. • Q.: Do you have any knowledge about the fact that units under his command in the summer and autumn of 1992 and the winter of 1993 until the area was proclaimed a protected zone had carried out combat (20)operations against both military forces of Republika Srpska as well as the civilian population around Srebrenica? • A.: I don't remember.
• Q.: On the 13th of July, you were at the soccer
(25)pitch in Kasaba?
• Q.: You said that a list was made of those of you present there at the playing ground? • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Do you know, did you see who took that list? • A.: I think it was Mladic. • Q.: After that, you remained in the football pitch? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: Can you tell us when you left the field to go towards Bratunac? • A.: It was in the afternoon an hour before nightfall, perhaps. • Q.: And when did you pass through Kravica, was it (15)dark? • A.: Not yet. It was dusk. Night had started to fall. • Q.: On what side of the bus were you seated? • A.: I was standing in the bus. (20) • Q.: And this warehouse, how far is it from the road? • A.: Not very far. • Q.: Can you be more precise?
• A.: I don't know exactly. I couldn't really tell
(25)you how far it was.
(5) • A.: No. • Q.: What was happening in the schoolyard? • A.: No, I only heard screams and shooting because it was dark. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] (10)Mr. President, the Defence has no further questions. • Q.: Thank you, Witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. McCloskey, have you any additional (15)questions. MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No, Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: No, thank you, Mr. President. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam Wald, no. JUDGE WALD: I have no questions either.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] In that
case, Witness Q, you have finished your testimony here
(25)at the International Criminal Tribunal.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm, at this point, just slightly confused about all things exhibit-wise. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No (15)problem. Mr. Mark Dubuisson knows everything by exhibits and is going to explain it to us.
THE REGISTRAR:
[Int.] Exhibit
23/1.1 is the document shown by the Prosecutor
directly to the witness and it was a photograph which
(20)was not annotated by Jean Ruez. It was a photograph of
the school.
And finally there is an exhibit, that is the
first one that needs to be corrected. The second one
is 24.5.1 an aerial photograph. Again, one that was
(25)not numbered because 24/5 was annotated by the first
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I also know (5)a little bit about exhibits, don't I, Mr. Dubuisson? THE REGISTRAR [Int.] Yes, of course, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, have you any objections regarding the (10)admission of these exhibits? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. (15)So these exhibits will be admitted into evidence as explained by Mr. Dubuisson and which I also have confirmed. I think we have to make a very short break before we begin our Status Conference. So we will only (20)have a five-minute break. As I was saying, we need a five-minute break and we will have our Status Conference in closed session. Mr. Harmon, you have something to say. (25)
MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President. This
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps it will be better to do that afterwards. I think it is (10)more urgent to have the Status Conference than to have those documents. Perhaps during the Status Conference I can suggest a solution to deal with that matter. I think it is more urgent to have the Status Conference than to (15)deal with those exhibits now. So we're going to have only a five-minute break. We will come back into the courtroom without a witness. Please, Witness, don't move because of your (20)protective measures. Good-bye, witness, therefore.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
2.33, to be followed by a Status
Conference |
