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/ Colormap • Page 4152 • {1/80} (1)Monday, 19 June 2000 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m. (5)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good morning, ladies and
gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters. I
can see that they're all here. We can see better in this courtroom
whether they are or not. (10) THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-33-T, the Prosecutor versus Radislav Krstic. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] As we haven't worked for some time, Mr. Harmon, would you introduce the Prosecution for us, please. MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President; good morning, Your (15)Honours; good morning to my colleagues for the Defence. Today assisting me are my colleagues and co-counsel, Mr. Andrew Cayley to my right, and to his right, Mr. Peter McCloskey. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. (20)Mr. Petrusic, would you present yourself, please. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours; good morning to my colleagues of the Prosecution. The Defence is as it has been so far, myself, Mr. Petrusic, and my colleague on my left, Mr. Visnjic. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good morning to you too, General
MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours, we have a protected (5)witness, and in order to proceed with him we will need to lower the blinds. We anticipate calling today two, possibly three witnesses. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Okay. We're going to have the blinds drawn for the moment and we'll raise them later on. THE REGISTRAR: It will be Witness U. (10) MR. HARMON: Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you very much, Madam
Registrar. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Witness U. Can (15)you hear me? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Good morning. Yes, I can hear you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You are now going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to hand to you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak (20)the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS U JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Do you feel comfortable and are
MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Good morning, Witness U. (10) • A.: Good morning. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I apologise to both you and Mr. Harmon, but we need the list with the witness' name for the Defence and for the Trial Chamber. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic, for (15)drawing our attention to that. I was thinking of that very same thing. Witness, I apologise, but before we begin, you're going to be shown a piece of paper with your name written on it. You will give us a yes or no answer whether it is your name or not. Just that, please. Thank you. (20) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Your Honours, that is, indeed, my name.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Okay. Thank you. We are ready,
I think.
Mr. Harmon, I apologise for forgetting that, but I'm sure you had
(25)it in mind, and I should like to thank Mr. Petrusic for drawing it to our
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Witness U, could you tell us your nationality, please? • A.: Muslim. (5) • Q.: And are you from Bosnia? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you tell the Judges your educational background, please? • A.: I graduated from several secondary schools. My basic education was at the gymnasium, the general secondary school. I was not able to get (10)a job straight away, so that I worked as an electrician for a long time. • Q.: Witness U, we're going to spend a lot of time today talking about radios, and you have told me about your interest in radios and I would appreciate it if you would tell the Judges when you became interested in radios and what types of special classifications or certificates you (15)received in the pursuit of your interest in radios. • A.: Your Honours, my interest started when I was 14. I was interested in electronics and radios, radio devices, which is when I attended a constructor's sector in the field, and graduated from that, and went on to a second course three years later. And I held a "C" classification in (20)amateur radio, a radio ham. And do you wish me to go on? • Q.: Very briefly, Witness U, could you explain to the Judges what a "C" classification is?
• A.: A "C" classification for a radio ham is an examination which
everybody passes in that field in the world. It is an international
(25)examination. It is composed of abbreviations for certain names,
• Q.: Now, Witness U, in 1992 you joined the JNA; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that is correct. (5) • Q.: And you remained in active service in the JNA for 14 months; correct? • A.: That is correct, yes. • Q.: Did you have a speciality while you were in the JNA? • A.: Yes. I was a radio calligraphist, which included a teleprinter. (10) • Q.: And in the course of your service in the JNA, did you become familiar with the types of radio devices within your unit that were being used by the JNA? • A.: Yes, I did. In short, all the devices that my unit had in its possession and on the basis of textbooks, I was able to expand my (15)knowledge considerably in the field. • Q.: Now, after you left the JNA, Witness U, did you continue in the reserves? • A.: Yes, I did, from 1984 onwards, when I attended a seminar, a course, and got a rank. And I did the "B" category exam and was (20)interested in radio -- became even more interested in radio electronics and radio devices, and I got the rank of sergeant. • Q.: So, Witness U, while you were in the JNA reserves, you continued to be involved with radios and radio communications; is that a fair statement? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: That is correct, yes. • Q.: Very, very briefly, Witness U, what is a "B" certificate in (5)amateur radio; what does it mean? • A.: A "B" certificate in radio amateurism is a higher category which requires a better knowledge of amateur radio communication, the handling of equipment, and more telegraphic signs, and you have to be more adapt in all fields and have to have a good knowledge of electronics as well. (10) • Q.: Now, Witness U, did you maintain your interest in radios and radio communication up until the time the conflict in Bosnia started? • A.: Yes, I did. I even had my own radio transmitters, and I worked with different frequencies and bands. • Q.: Did you construct radio stations? (15) • A.: Yes, I did. Since 1982 or 1983, that was when I began constructing radio stations. • Q.: Witness U, I would now like to direct your attention to the time when the war started in Bosnia. Tell the Judges what you first did when the war started in order to serve your country. (20)
• A.: At the very beginning of the war, I worked for the civilian
authorities and I was in a reserve formation. I assisted them in
technical matters, in installations. I helped them install devices,
develop radio networks, and installations, as I say, the installation and
function. We use the term "visual reconnaissance stations"; that is the
(25)term we use. And also let me add -- just one moment, please, if I may
• Q.: Did you initially work in civil defence? • A.: Yes, that's correct. (5) • Q.: Now, at some point in time, did you stop working for the civil defence authorities and start working for the army or for the military authorities? • A.: Yes. On the [redacted] • Q.: And very, very generally, what were your duties and obligations (10)when you made a transition from the civil defence authorities to the military authorities?
• A.:
[redacted] • Q.: Now, can you define the term "anti-electronic combat"? (15) • A.: Anti-electronic combat consists of the following: It consists of monitoring and emission. • Q.: "Monitoring," by that do you mean monitoring the enemy communications? • A.: Yes, that is precisely what it does, and "emission" also means (20)interception of those same facilities. • Q.: Did you remain in the field of anti-electronic warfare until the conclusion of the war in Bosnia?
• A.: Yes, that's right, until I was relieved of the services on the (25)
• Q.: Now, let me ask you just some general questions, Witness U. In
• A.: This is done so that we can detect on time the enemy movements, whether the enemy is advancing, whether they are encountering any (5)problems, and to discover the intent, the enemy's intent, which are usually secret, confidential. • Q.: Now, Witness U, to your knowledge, did each of the parties in the war, the Bosnian Croats, the Bosnian Serbs, the Croatian army, the army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, did each of those parties to the (10)combat have an anti-electronic warfare unit? • A.: Yes. • Q.: So this type of unit in which you served was a unit that was in all of the armies. • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Now, in the course of attempting to intercept and listen to communications of the enemy, do you also intercept communications that are encrypted, that are coded, and that are open-line communications with no encryption and no codes? • A.: Both, yes. (20) • Q.: Now I'd like to focus, Witness U, and I'd like you to give us very briefly, in very elementary terms, a lesson on how radios work, how communications work, and essentially how you intercept the communication. If you could first of all describe how radio communications are made and what you look for in terms of intercepting such a communication. (25)
• A.: Yes. Radio communication is communication between two parties
(10) • Q.: I'm sorry. Please continue. • A.: Yes, please go ahead. We intercept this communication by positioning ourselves in a particular locality on one waveband. It is a selected location where communication already exists. We direct our antenna in the direction that we wish to have them function and then we (15)usually wait. There is a waiting period until communication begins. Those are the initial steps. • Q.: All right. Witness U, thank you for that brief lesson. Let me now focus your attention to the period in July of 1995 when the Srebrenica enclave fell to the Bosnian Serb army. First of all, can (20)you tell the Judges the name of the unit in which you were serving? • A.: It was the Anti-Electronic Combat Company within the 2nd Corps, and I was in the [redacted]
MR. HARMON: I'm going to need the assistance of the usher because
there's a map over here I'd like to show the witness, and it's
(25)ill-positioned if we intend to keep his identity protected.
• A.: This is that locality. MR. HARMON: It's difficult for me to see where he's pointed in the circumstances, so perhaps instead of that, Mr. Usher, we could put an (10)A3-sized -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, have you got something that we could place on the ELMO, perhaps, a document for the ELMO? MR. HARMON: I think that's the easier way to proceed. Thank (15)you. Mr. Usher, if you could move that up a bit, please. Thank you very much. • Q.: Witness U, could you use the pointer, please, and point to the location where you and your unit was stationed at the time of the fall of (20)Srebrenica. • A.: I apologise, but it was not my platoon -- the question referred to my platoon, I thought. Was that it? • Q.: My question to you, Witness U, is can you tell us where you and your men who were intercepting these radio communications were located? (25)
• A.: I see. Yes, I can. This was the location where we intercepted
MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness has placed his pointer on a green dot that is identified as Okresanica. Thank you very much, Witness U. (5)Mr. Usher, thank you very much. • Q.: Witness U, at Okresanica, were there other units beside your own unit engaged in monitoring enemy communications? • A.: Yes, there were other units too. • Q.: Could you identify those units, please? (10) • A.: Yes. The civilian authorities, the police, the 21st Brigade -- no, I'm sorry, the 21st Division. • Q.: So there were two units; is that correct? • A.: Yes. Well, three. • Q.: I should say two beside your own unit. One of those units was the (15)21st Division of the Anti-Electronic Warfare Group, and I take it the other was a unit of the police. Was that a unit of the State Security Service? • A.: Yes, it was. • Q.: Let's focus on your unit, [redacted] Witness U, how many (20)men were in the [redacted] • A.: [redacted] • Q.: Now -- • A.: [No interpretation] MR. HARMON: I didn't get a translation for the last portion. (25)
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness say
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Witness U, you said something that wasn't picked up by the interpreters. (5) • A.: Yes. [redacted] • Q.: All right. And tell the Judges how you worked; what kind of shifts, how many people worked on a shift? • A.: We had three shifts, one of which was the night shift. And depending on the activities, on the radio equipment, there were one to (10)four men per shift. At night, there was one man and, if necessary, more, for reasons of economising with manpower. MR. HARMON: If I could, without placing on the ELMO, show the witness Prosecution Exhibit 300, which will be an exhibit that will be under seal. 300 is a list of people. (15) • Q.: Witness U, this is not going to be made a public exhibit. I'm going to ask you: Did you assist me in preparing this exhibit, and did you identify the names of the individuals who served in your group of people intercepting radio communications? • A.: Yes, I did. I gave you the names in this order on this list. (20) • Q.: So this list represents the people who were serving in your unit? • A.: Yes, without doubt. MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. If that exhibit could be placed under seal, Mr. President. • Q.: What was your position, Witness U, in the unit? (25)
• A.:
[redacted]
• A.: Almost two years. • Q.: Now, Witness U, from the position of Okresanica, whose (5)communications were you monitoring? • A.: We were able, from our position at Okresanica, to monitor the area of responsibility between three rivers, the Bosna, the Sava, and the Drina, in very general terms. Those are the three rivers. • Q.: And were you monitoring the communications of the HVO or were you (10)monitoring the communications of the VRS? • A.: We were monitoring the communications of the army of Republika Srpska. • Q.: So the area that you've described to us, Witness U, is quite a large area in Bosnia, and I'd like to show you now Prosecutor's Exhibit (15)139, which is a map, and if this could be placed on the ELMO. Now, Witness U, this is a map that you've seen in my office before coming in to testify; isn't that correct? • A.: Yes. Yes, it is. • Q.: And this map represents only a small area -- a small part of the (20)area that was in your area of responsibility; is that correct? • A.: Correct. • Q.: Now, can you tell the Judges what this particular exhibit represents? You can use the pointer.
• A.: The map shows a part of the area of responsibility that we were
(25)covering. It is territory where the command centre was of the army of
• Q.: Could you point that out, please, on the ELMO, that location? (5) • A.: Of course. This is the radio relay centre marked here with the word "Panorama". MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness has pointed to the centre of an area from which a number of lines radiate out. • Q.: Now, Witness U, you said "Panorama". What is "Panorama"? (10) • A.: "Panorama" was the name of that radio centre. • Q.: Is that a code name? • A.: It is. • Q.: Where is the radio relay centre located, near what town or in what town? (15) • A.: The radio relay centre was in Han Pijesak. • Q.: And was Han Pijesak the command centre for the Bosnian Serb army? • A.: It was the main headquarters. The Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska was stationed there. • Q.: All right. Witness U, I'm sorry to have interrupted you. Could (20)you continue on with your explanation of the various features identified on this map?
• A.: The radio relay centre has several radio relay communications, as
can be seen on the map. So this is the main participant. The central
participant is linked with subordinate units. Here on the map we can see
(25)that there are at least two types of radio relay links, and there are
MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, will you lower the exhibit so the Judges can see Palma. (10) • Q.: When you say "Palma", Witness U, again is Palma a code sign? If it is, with what unit is it associated? • A.: Yes, it is the code name for the Zvornik Brigade, which we can see here now. All radio relay equipment was mounted on very high ground. • Q.: Now, in the course of your description, Witness U, you described (15)Badem and you pointed out to the Judges the location of the Bratunac Brigade. Could you again point out for the Judges the radio communication line leading to the Bratunac Brigade? • A.: From the radio relay centre towards the radio relay installations of that brigade. (20) • Q.: Now, is Badem the code name for the Bratunac Brigade? • A.: It is. • Q.: And when I say "code name" -- • A.: We call it the secret name.
• Q.: So, when one radio -- one person who wants to transmit a radio
(25)communication to the Bratunac Brigade, how would that transmitter -- how
• A.: He would call them "Badem". • Q.: So he wouldn't identify the unit he was attempting to make communication with as the Bratunac Brigade; instead, he would identify (5)that unit as Badem? • A.: That is right. • Q.: Now, let me move the exhibit again to the left, and you have indicated the Drina Corps headquarters. Could you point that out on this map, and can you tell the Judges what their code name was? (10) • A.: Yes. Their code name was Zlatar. • Q.: Now, are there other code names that are identified on this map, code names for specific units? • A.: There is Dora, Prostor, Gric, Vrelo, Matica, Bresa. • Q.: Witness U, it's difficult to follow that. If you would merely (15)take us on a tour of this map, point out the unit and the code name, where it is marked on this particular map, it would be helpful to us all. • A.: Bresa, the Sokolac Brigade, Matica, the Romanija Brigade; then we have Grmec in Skelani. That's as much as I can see on the map. • Q.: All right. Now, Witness U, to your left, can you see the large (20)board that is to your left? It's Exhibit 137. • A.: Yes, I can. MR. HARMON: Can we use Prosecutor's Exhibit 137 and place that on the ELMO, please.
• Q.: Now, Witness U, this is in English. Did you and I have an
(25)opportunity yesterday in my office to review this particular exhibit which
• A.: Yes, we did. • Q.: Is this an accurate exhibit? Does it properly identify the code (5)name with the corresponding unit on the right? • A.: Yes, it does. • Q.: Now, just to illustrate one more time, Witness U, if the Drina Corps headquarters, which was Zlatar, wanted to contact the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, which was Palma, how would they identify their (10)respective units in the radio transmission, generally? • A.: They would refer to those units in radio communication as Palma and Zlatar. • Q.: Witness U, let's even narrow the focus of your testimony down a little bit more, and I'd like you to describe in precision how you and (15)your unit actually captured radio communications. Starting at the point in time when you're sitting at a monitor with a set of headphones listening, tell us what you would do you from that point in time until the point in time when the radio communication had been reduced to writing and transmitted on to your superior (20)headquarters. • A.: I apologise, but do you mean from the moment I put the headphones on onwards? Is that what you mean? • Q.: That's what I mean.
• A.: So from the moment I put my headset on, whether it is me or any of
(25)the other operators, we would wait for the participants to start
• Q.: You told us earlier in your testimony, Witness U, that you and your unit had been up at the mountaintop listening to Bosnian Serb military communications for two years. Can you tell us, based on your experience, whether you were able to identify the specific speakers in (10)some of the radio communications that you intercepted? • A.: Yes, we were able to do so; extremely well, in fact. • Q.: Now, when you intercepted the communication, was the intercepted communication on a tape recording? • A.: Yes, it was recorded on tape. (15) • Q.: When you earlier testified about you and your men going to reduce the intercepted communication to writing, did that mean that the intercept operator would again listen to the tape carefully and write down exactly the communication that he had intercepted?
• A.: Yes. It's not always simple to do. Sometimes there are problems
(20)when you're trying to transcribe these tapes because the quality may not
always be very good because of the poor connection established which we
managed to intercept. Then there are difficulties, so you have to rewind
it back and forth several times. You even have to ask the assistance of
other people who may know the voice better so as to make sure that the
(25)message is taken down correctly.
• A.: Yes, that's what I just said. (5) • Q.: Now, besides the ability to recognise the speakers, the people who were speaking on these radio communications, were there other ways that you and your men could identify who was communicating? • A.: They would sometimes give their names themselves, and then the orders, judging from the orders, one could gather who was ordering whom, (10)and from that one would know who was the most important participant. Then came the voice, then the other code names used, and all these little pieces are put together like a jigsaw. • Q.: Now, where were the handwritten notes of the intercepted communication placed? You said pieces of paper. What kind of paper were (15)they placed on? • A.: These were notebooks with some kind of a marking on them, at least a number, and the numbers would be in order, and many of them would have an indication of the type of equipment used to record and transcribe. Some notebooks would have additional information; for instance, messages (20)in written form such as signatures, then the code name under which a document was sent to us, then the date when the notebook first started to be used, and the contents would be inside, the contents of intercepted radio communications.
• Q.: Now, Witness U, before we get to the actual examination of these
(25)notebooks, I want to continue with the procedure for just a minute.
• A.: When the message was taken down in the notebook, the next step would be to take that notebook to the computer, to enter it into the (5)computer. As soon as it has been typed, making sure that no changes need to be made, that it is reliable, it is sent to the command of my unit, to the headquarters of my unit. • Q.: I'm going to show you a number of copies from notebooks and they're going to be in binders. (10) MR. HARMON: Your Honours should have binders, at least three binders of these notebooks. Before I begin this examination, I will inform Your Honours how these notebooks are organised for ease of reference. These binders have tabs in them and behind each tab is a copy of an individual notebook. The (15)original notebooks, which I will make available to Your Honours to inspect, are here. In fact, I would invite Your Honours to inspect one or two of the originals, although we would like to maintain the copies of the originals as evidence. These are true copies. But this witness will be able to identify specific notebooks in the three volumes, and I'm going to (20)now ask him to examine, with the assistance of the usher, certain exhibits contained in these notebooks. Mr. Usher, will you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 279 and show it to the witness, please.
• Q.: Witness U, the usher will open up the notebook and show you tab 1,
(25)Prosecutor's Exhibit 279. Would you quickly inspect that exhibit, Witness
• A.: This is a notebook from our location that we used. I can recognise my handwriting, "REU 128," and there are 52 persons mentioned, (5)and there is my signature. I can even see text written in my own hand inside the notebook -- • Q.: Witness U -- • A.: -- and there are other indications by which I can tell. • Q.: You've examined the original of that notebook in my office prior (10)to coming here to testify; is that correct? • A.: Yes, correct. • Q.: Now, does this particular notebook contain the intercepted conversations that were recorded by members of your staff? • A.: Yes, it does. This can be seen from the handwriting that I can (15)recognise. The way in which we marked these messages, we had a unified manner. Then the frequency, the order, the participants we intercepted, the participants from our own area of responsibility. So this is our notebook. • Q.: Now, the written records of each intercepted communication that (20)are contained in that notebook, were they made at or about the time you actually intercepted the communication? • A.: Yes, at the exact time or round about the exact time that the interception took place.
• Q.: And do those written records of each intercepted communication
(25)consist of a verbatim recording of the intercepted communication?
• Q.: And were these notebooks, such as Exhibit 279, kept by the army as part of their regular business? • A.: Yes, that's right. (5) • Q.: All right. I'm going to go through this exercise with you now for a series of other notebooks. MR. HARMON: But, Your Honours, I also have some of the originals, which I'm prepared to pass up to Your Honours. It may be of assistance to you. Frankly, it gives a better flavour of what these notebooks consist (10)of. I'll make them available to my colleagues as well. But if I could pass two or three exemplars up to Your Honours now, then I could continue with this examination. • Q.: Witness U, while the Judges and Defence counsel are examining the original copies of these notebooks, if you would turn your attention (15)briefly to Prosecutor's Exhibit 280, which will be the next item I'm going to be asking you about. The usher will assist you. If you would inspect Exhibit 280, Witness U, and I would ask you if you could identify that as a notebook that was also from your unit. MR. HARMON: Have counsel and Your Honours had sufficient time to (20)examine the original notebooks? And if so, I'll continue with my examination. • Q.: Witness U, is Exhibit 280 a notebook that was taken by members of your unit?
• A.: Document 280 is also a document kept by the representatives of my
(25)unit, yes.
• A.: Yes, that is precisely it. • Q.: And do those notes accurately verbatim contain the intercepted (5)communication or the parts of the intercepted communication as heard on the radio transmission? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Again, this notebook and all of the notebooks I'm going to be asking you about were maintained by the army in the regular course of (10)their business; is that correct? • A.: That's correct. • Q.: Now, could you turn your attention to the next notebook, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 282. Witness U, we're going to go through this same exercise with a number of these notebooks. If you could just tell me if (15)this was a notebook that was maintained by your unit, prepared by your unit. • A.: Yes, that's right. • Q.: Turn to the next exhibit, please, 283. Would you inspect that, please? (20) MR. HARMON: I'll say for the record, Mr. President and Your Honours, I've shown the witness the original notebooks of each of these exhibits I'm going to be identifying, and they are an exact copy. But I think it is necessary for the witness to make that representation to the Trial Chamber. (25)
• A.: This too is a document that was compiled in my unit at that time.
• Q.: And that's an exact copy of the original; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that's right. • Q.: Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, which is the next (5)exhibit. Can you identify that notebook as a notebook that was prepared by either you or members of your unit? • A.: Yes, it is. That document was prepared by my unit as well. • Q.: Take a look at the next exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 285, please. Is that a notebook, Witness U, 285, that is prepared by members (10)of your unit? • A.: Yes, it is. That is the notebook prepared by members of my unit. • Q.: Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 287, please. Is this a notebook that was prepared by members of your unit? • A.: Yes, that too is a document prepared by my unit. (15) • Q.: Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 288, please. Witness U, is Prosecutor's Exhibit 288 a notebook that was prepared by members of your unit? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 290, please. Would you (20)inspect that and tell us whether that is a notebook that was also prepared by members of your unit? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Lastly, would you take a look at Prosecutor's Exhibit 294, please. (25)
• A.: Yes. That too is the document from my unit, compiled at that
• Q.: So all of the documents that I've just shown you, all of those exhibits you've been able to identify as coming from your unit by either recognising the handwriting of your colleagues or recognising your own (5)entries in them; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that's correct. • Q.: And in respect of each of these notebooks, each of these notebooks contain the accurate recording of intercepted radio communications; is that correct? (10) • A.: Yes, that is correct. MR. HARMON: All right. Mr. President, I don't know when Your Honours want a break, if this is the appropriate time. I don't have too much more for this witness, but we're going to go into specific conversations next. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon, I think that this is a very good time to take a break. We'll have a 20-minute recess. --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] The hearing is resumed. We
(20)apologise for the delay. Perhaps I should speak in English.
MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours. I'm going to focus the attention of the witness on two (5)conversations that are found in the notebooks that he specifically listened to and recorded. The first of those is found, Your Honours, for your reference, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 279, and it is found at page 00778904. I've marked in the exhibit copy of the exhibit the reference so I could show it to the witness. (10)Mr. Usher, we have an independent copy of just this conversation. It is Prosecutor's Exhibit 301-1C. If the first page of the Bosnian copy could be placed on the ELMO, just the first page. THE INTERPRETER: Could you please speak into the microphone, please, Mr. Harmon. Thank you. (15) MR. HARMON: If we could place the first page, the excerpt on the ELMO, not the second page because the witness is identified by his initials at the end of that. • Q.: Now, let me ask you, Witness U, the conversation that you see on the monitor in front of you, is that the same conversation that appears in (20)Prosecutor's Exhibit 279, which is in front of you in the binder? Did you understand my question? Maybe you didn't hear it. Let me repeat my question because I don't think you could hear it. Is the exhibit that is on the monitor in front of you a copy of the page that's marked in Prosecutor's Exhibit 279? (25)
• A.: It is.
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Will you take a look at the exhibit that is in the binder, 279, at page 00778904. Let me ask you, is this a conversation -- strike that. Is (5)the handwriting on this exhibit your handwriting? I think the binder keeps turning off the earphones for this witness so he can't hear my questions. Let me ask you once again, Witness U -- • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: -- the handwriting in the notebook, which is found at page 00778904 and 8905, is that your handwriting? • A.: Yes, it is my handwriting. • Q.: Is this a conversation that you personally intercepted? • A.: Yes, it is. (15) • Q.: Is this an intercepted communication that you then reduced to writing in the notebook, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 279? • A.: It is.
MR. HARMON: The language booth should have the English and a
French translation of this particular exhibit, and I think for purposes of
(20)making the procedure more efficient I'm going to ask the language booth
merely to translate the exhibit that's on the ELMO. They have copies of
the official language translations, and if they can just read the
translations into the record, we can then turn to the next exhibit.
For the benefit of the language service people, the English
(25)translation is 301-1A and the French translation of the exhibit that's on
THE INTERPRETER: Could we suggest that the witness read it out in B/C/S? MR. HARMON: No. I'm suggesting that the language booth, which (5)has a copy of the translation provided to it by the Office of the Prosecutor, merely read the translation of this document. THE INTERPRETER: [as read] Just a moment, to Colonel Vukovic. MR. HARMON: Could you start in the upper left-hand corner which indicates a series of numbers and channels and time. (10) THE INTERPRETER: [as read] 7847 - channel 5 - 2056 hours. Major-General Zivanovic - X. (X.:) Just a moment, to Colonel Vukovic. /as written/ (M.:) Good evening. (X.:) Evening. (15) (M.:) How's it going? (X.:) We are fine, how about you? (M.:) How can I find out where General Zivanovic is? I've been waiting here for him on his orders since 1700 hours. (X.:) He's here. (20) (M.:) What? (X.:) He's here. (M.:) There? (X.:) Yes. (M.:) Well, put me through to him. (25)
(X.:) I'll try now.
(M.:) Good evening. (Z.:) Good evening, Vuko. (M.:) Things are all right, good, here. I did everything in the (5)spirit of what I received last night. And in morning /?he/ called me Natasku /word unknown/ and I came here this morning at around 10 o'clock and I /as written/. (Z.:) Major! (M.:) Yes, yes, I understand you. (10) (Z.:) I just came from the checkpoint. (M.:) Could you repeat that, please? (Z.:) I said that paper which was sent - there is one - from Blagojevic, about me. (M.:) OK. (15) (Z.:) Read my conclusions. (M.:) I understand. (Z.:) Because (from here on drowned out by previously recorded conversation) (M.:) I understand, completely, and then we'll focus on the one down (20)there (drowned out again by previously recorded conversation). (M.:) I understand. I'm going to put my post up there. (Z.:) Listen. Where up there are your boys? (M.:) Well, my boys are now in the western part, working there as of today. Everything's in place, sweet as a nut. (25)
(Z.:) Excellent.
(Z.:) ... (mumbles something short). (M.:) I understand. (Z.:) Take care. (5) (M.:) Take care. MR. HARMON: Please don't read the signature and the initials that are associated with this. Thank you very much. • Q.: Now, Witness U, who is "Z" in this conversation? • A.: It is "Z", and in this conversation it was General Zivanovic. (10) • Q.: You told us in your earlier examination that after a conversation was handwritten into a notebook, it was then typed, and a typed copy of the conversation was forwarded on up your chain of command. Let me show you the next exhibit. MR. HARMON: If the B/C/S version, first of all, could be shown to (15)the witness so he can inspect it. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 301-2B. If that could be shown to the witness so he could look at it himself, and then we'll place that on the ELMO. • Q.: First of all, would you inspect that, Witness U. Witness U, is this the typed version of the intercepted communication that was prepared (20)by you or by a member of your unit and then forwarded up the chain of command? • A.: Yes, that is the document typed out in our unit and forwarded up the chain of command.
• Q.: And was that document prepared on the same day that the
(25)conversation that has just been read into the record was intercepted?
• Q.: And what date, then, looking at this document, was it that the conversation that was just read into the record -- what date was it intercepted? (5) • A.: On the first document, there's no date. On the second, there is a date. • Q.: And so what is that date? • A.: The 14th of July, 1995. MR. HARMON: All right. Thank you very much. We've finished with (10)this particular document. We'll turn to another conversation. For Your Honours' reference, this next conversation is found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 280, and it is found at page 00779705. Witness U, I've marked that with a yellow tab for your ease of reference in Prosecutor's Exhibit 280. Mr. Usher, if you could kindly (15)place the first page of the B/C/S version, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 302-1C, on the ELMO. • Q.: Let me ask you, Witness U, you have the actual copy of the notebook, Prosecutor's Exhibit 280, in front of you and the conversation I've just referred to. Now, would you examine the conversation that's in (20)the notebook and the conversation that is on the monitor in front of you, and are they the same conversations? • A.: Yes, they are the same conversations. • Q.: Was this a conversation -- first of all, is this your handwriting on the page 00779705? (25)
• A.: Yes, it is.
• A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: Is this a conversation that you personally intercepted? (5) • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: And did you faithfully record from the tape to the notebook the contents of that conversation? • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Now, if we could follow the same procedure that we (10)did before, if I could ask the language booths to translate this document. I will give you the numbers. The English translation for this document is 302-1A, and the French version is 302-1B. If we could start in the same procedure that we did before and if it could be completely read. (15) THE INTERPRETER: [as read] At 2102 hours, 784.7 MHz, Channel 3. Priority. Palma Duty Officer (Major Jokic) - Badem - X - Y. : Hello, Badem. Let me talk to Beara. (B.:) Who wants to talk to him? (20): The Palma duty officer wants to talk to him. Beara is needed urgently, somebody needs him. The Superior Command urgently needs him, but he has to call me. (B.:) Okay. (25)
(P.:) Okay, what? Give me Beara. Don't hang
(J.:) Hello, who is it, Major, I'm the duty officer at Palma. I need Beara urgently. This is Major Jokic. Who is that? Why the (5)fuck are you not answering? Is Ostoja there? Is Brko there? Don't fuck around. The line has to be free, and you must pick it up right away. Who is Ostoja? Is Ostoja there? Have him call me urgently. I will, I (10)will. Hello, hello. (B.:) Here is Beara, you have him on the line. (J.:) Hello. (X.:) Hello. Is the operations duty officer looking for me? Go ahead. Vojanovic is not (15)here, he is up at Snagovo. There are some problems there, at the line I've told you about. The Turks have pushed our guys back towards Crni Vrh. (Y.:) ... (20) (X.:) Yes. I told him to consolidate the lines up there. That's it. (J.:) Hello. (B.:) Just a moment. One moment old man.
(J.:) Is that Beara? Jokic here.
(25)BE: ...
(5) (J.:) Number 155. That's, I mean, Superior Command, you go ahead and call them, you have, so I don't speak like this. BE: ... (J.:) Yes. Hey. We have huge problems over (10)here. BE: ... (J.:) There are big problems. Well with the people, I mean, with the parcel. BE: ... (15) (J.:) Who? Drago is nowhere around. I don't know where the others are all day. BE: ... (J.:) What? Call up there number 155 in the Superior Command and that's it. Okay, boss. (20)BE: ... Why number 155? Where is that? (J.:) Well, I can't tell you on this line, you know. You have it over there at the signalmen, who that is. BE: Yes? (25)
(J.:) Bye.
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Witness U, let me ask you some specific questions about this intercepted communication. First let me refer you to the terms "Palma" and "duty officer". You earlier testified about code names. Palma was (10)associated with what location? • A.: Palma was the Zvornik Brigade. • Q.: And Badem? • A.: Badem was the Drina Corps. Sorry -- • Q.: You can refer to one of the maps. It's been many years. If you (15)would like to refer to either the Prosecutor's Exhibit 137, which is the large board, or the green map. • A.: The Bratunac Brigade. • Q.: In this conversation, next to a speaker there are dots. What do the dots represent? (20) • A.: The dots represent something that was either not heard, that was poorly heard, or that was unintelligible. • Q.: So where you couldn't understand or couldn't hear it, you inserted dots in order to maintain the accuracy of what you could, in fact, hear?
• A.: Yes, precisely so. Only the things that we were sure of were put
(25)down on paper.
• A.: There's no date on this document. (5) • Q.: Now let me focus your attention on part of your earlier testimony when you said there was a group of other people who were intercepting communications from the location where your group was located, that is, a group from the State Security Service. Did you and the State Security Service share the information that you had intercepted on a daily basis? (10) • A.: Yes, we would pass on our information to that service. • Q.: Would they prepare a report containing the information that you had shared with them? • A.: Yes, they did prepare a report. • Q.: And have you seen copies of their reports that they would forward (15)to their higher command? • A.: No, I did not. • Q.: Well, let me show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 302-2C, the four-page document. If you can identify it, I would appreciate it. If you can't, just tell me you can't. (20) MR. HARMON: If that could be given to the witness so he can inspect. If you could turn to the last page of that document. It should be a four-page document. • A.: Yes, it is the same document that I have in the notebook. MR. HARMON: (25)
• Q.: So let me just ask you some questions. If not, I'll proceed with
• A.: No. MR. HARMON: I won't ask any additional questions on this (5)document. I have another witness who will come in and identify this document. I have no additional questions of this witness. Thank you very much, Mr. President and Your Honours. Thank you, Witness U. The Defence will ask you questions next. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. Mr. Petrusic, your witness. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: (15) • Q.: Good morning, Witness U. The unit [redacted] belonged or was subordinated to the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was it not? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Witness U, before I pass on to my next question, as both of us speak the same language, please be so kind as to make a short pause after my question of 10 to 15 seconds for the benefit of the interpreters. At the location where your unit was stationed, was a unit of the 21st Division also stationed there? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: For me, no. • Q.: So you were under the command of the 2nd Corps, were you? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did these two units coordinate their activities? • A.: No. • Q.: Was your equipment placed in the same room? • A.: No. (10) • Q.: Did you act on the basis of the same documents? Were your basic procedures the same? • A.: I don't know how they operated. • Q.: Can it be said that the basic documents regulating electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare, orders for electronic (15)surveillance and anti-electronic warfare, document 1, and document 2, the plan for electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare, are they one and the same? • A.: I'm afraid I did not understand your question. Could you repeat it, please? (20) • Q.: Did you have orders in the form of documents for electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare? • A.: Yes, we did. • Q.: Did you have a plan for electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare? (25)
• A.: Not in written form.
• A.: It is sufficient to say that we had orders. The plan is not important in this case. (5) • Q.: Would you please be so kind as to answer my question, please. You said there was no plan in written form. Does that imply that it was issued orally? • A.: It implies no. • Q.: In the premises in which you worked, did you act, allow me to call (10)it, "conditionally" on the basis of rules for electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare? • A.: I don't know which rules you're referring to. • Q.: Did you have any rules drawn up by a higher command, any normative procedures which guided your operations on the basis of which you acted? (15)As a member of the former Yugoslav army in which you acquired your knowledge and special training as a radio telegraph operator, you know that in those areas action is regulated by rules which represent a military secret of the highest confidentiality. So my question is: Did your unit have such rules? (20) • A.: I do not agree with what you said. • Q.: Can you please answer my question. Did you have rules on the basis of which you operated? • A.: Yes, we did. • Q.: Did you have a logbook, a diary, for the station? (25)
• A.: Not in the form that you are familiar with.
• A.: No. • Q.: Did you in any way whatsoever keep records of any kind as to the number of shifts and number of individuals manning those shifts? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: When you took over a shift from a previous shift, did you conduct this handing-over process? • A.: Yes. • Q.: You, [redacted], did you sign a paper of any kind (10)to that effect? • A.: I don't know what kind of paper you're referring to.
• Q.:
[redacted] • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: So the leader coming on duty and the leader going off duty would hand over their affairs to the next shift and shift leader, would they not? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And they did this according to a certain procedure. They would (20)keep records and inform each other of what had happened in the previous shift, and possibly give instructions or guidelines to the shift coming on duty stipulating the frequencies that attention should be paid to in particular.
• A.: Yes. This handover of shift duty was done by the commander of the
(25)company or the authorised individual in the command.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: The notebooks that were mentioned, the originals that have been presented by the Prosecutor and the photocopies which are authentic (5)representations of the originals, who supplied you with those notebooks? • A.: The notebooks came from the 2nd Corps command. • Q.: Do you happen to know whether it was the duty -- that is to say, whether those notebooks, at the end, on the last page, would they have a stamp of the command who issued them to you, with a stamp of the unit in (10)charge, in whose safekeeping that notebook has been placed, and that it should be paginated? Do you know about all that, that procedure? • A.: I am not of the same opinion as you in these matters. • Q.: May we say that the notebooks that came from the superior command did not contain stamps either of your unit or the superior command? (15) • A.: They did not have a stamp, no. • Q.: Can we say that they were not paginated either? • A.: Well, I don't agree with you there.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, may I have just one
moment, please. We received these documents just before the beginning of
(20)the proceedings, and glancing through them, we were able to note that most
of these notebooks do not have pages on them, are not numbered. So may we
just have a look at them, and then I will be presenting them to the
witness.
I'll retract that question and return to it later on for technical
(25)reasons, not to waste any more time.
• A.: No, not every notebook had my signature at the end of it. (5) • Q.: Let us take a look now at 282, Exhibit 282, please. It is Prosecution Exhibit 282. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, I apologise for interrupting, but perhaps you could ask the witness the questions, because otherwise you might get answers like, "I'm not of your opinion," "I don't (10)agree with you," and so on, so perhaps it would be a better way to ask a direct question and the answer will be yes or no or something along those lines. But please go ahead. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Exhibit 282, take a look at that please, and I'll go back to my (15)previous question. The pages of this notebook have not been numbered. • A.: I apologise. Was that a question? • Q.: Yes, it was, Witness. • A.: The pages on this notebook do not have numbers. • Q.: Thank you. Now, Exhibit 288 is the next document I'd like you to (20)look at. Do the pages of that notebook have numbers? • A.: No, this notebook does not have page numbers either. • Q.: While you were at Okresanica, did you have those two notebooks? • A.: We received them, we used them, and we sent them back, if that's your question. (25)
• Q.: When you got through a whole notebook -- could you explain the
• A.: I apologise again, but I say that I got the notebook from the superior command. • Q.: Yes, but I'm asking you when the notebook has -- once it had been (5)filled out. • A.: At the first next shift change, the notebook would go back to the command again. • Q.: Let me now go back to some technical questions on the technical side of your work, your profession. (10)When you put your headsets on and you intercept a conversation, you're following on one channel. How many participants can you intercept and hear on that one channel? • A.: Two participants. • Q.: Can you hear both of them equally well? (15) • A.: Usually, no. • Q.: Is there a rule of some kind as to which person you can hear better, the one calling up or the one being called? And, please, could you refrain from smiling. I am asking you whether the recipient of the call is heard better or the caller. (20) • A.: In this case, it is the caller. Just one moment, please. The radio relay station to which our antennae is directed, whose transmitter it is on that frequency.
• Q.: Witness U, glancing through the notebooks that you prepared, we
can see that they all have frequencies and the time. There is no date;
(25)that is to say, not on every occasion. Can you tell us why?
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: So the duty operator places the date on the daily report that he (10)sends to the corps; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that is correct. • Q.: If the daily report is sent by the operator, does that daily report -- that is to say, at the end of that daily report, does he place a stamp which states the day and the time when the telegram was sent, and on (15)the other side the day and time -- date and time when the telegram was received? • A.: Sir, the reports were sent out daily. As to the date, the computer had a date in it, because that is how the reports were transmitted. (20) • Q.: The audio cassettes, audiotapes doing the recording, were they stored -- that is to say, were they handed over to the Superior Command as well? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Do you know the fate of those tapes, what happened to them? (25)
• A.: No. I would be given an empty tape, and I would send out a full
• Q.: For you to intercept two parties in a conversation, how many sets of devices did you need? • A.: One set was sufficient. (5) • Q.: With this one set, were you able to intercept and follow one channel? • A.: No. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Witness U, I have no further questions. (10)Mr. President, thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Harmon, do you have any additional questions? MR. HARMON: Two brief areas I would like to explore with Witness U. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please go ahead. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Witness U, in your direct examination you testified that your area of responsibility for your unit was the area that was bordered by the Sava, the Drina, and the Bosna Rivers. That's quite a large area; is that (20)correct? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Also there has been reference made to the 21st Division,
Anti-Electronic Warfare Division, being a unit that was physically at or
near your location but didn't work with your specific unit. My question
(25)is this: Did the 21st Division, Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit, focus on a
• A.: Yes. • Q.: And what area did they focus on? • A.: It was a more narrow area, the Posavina region and perhaps a (5)little further afield as well. You could put it that way. • Q.: The Posavina area was north in your area of responsibility; isn't that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And the area of Srebrenica and the area where the Zvornik Brigade (10)operated was more to the south, the southern part of your area of responsibility; isn't that correct? • A.: Yes, that's it. • Q.: Now, my colleague asked you a number of questions about the dating of reports, and earlier I had shown you -- and I'd like to have this (15)placed back on the ELMO, please -- Prosecutor's Exhibit 301-2B. Now, we had earlier examined the page from a notebook dealing with this very conversation. That was found at Exhibit 301-1C, for the record. The exhibit that's on the ELMO now, Witness U, you indicated earlier in your examination that this exhibit represented the typewritten (20)version of the conversation found in the notebook; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that's correct. • Q.: This is the report, in typewritten form, that was then forwarded to your command; isn't that correct? • A.: Yes, that's right. (25)
MR. HARMON: Now, if that could be moved down on the ELMO, please,
• Q.: In the upper left-hand corner, you'll see two lines. One says "Broj 626", and the other says "Dana" with some numbers following it. What are those numbers? (5) • A.: That is the number of the document we sent out, and underneath, the date when it was sent. • Q.: These types of documents such as in this exhibit were sent out on a daily basis to your higher command; is that correct? • A.: Yes, every day. (10) • Q.: On occasion, were such reports sent more than one time a day? • A.: Yes, in the period when there were frequent operations on the radio devices. • Q.: So, for example, during the period of Srebrenica, was that a period of intense and high activity? (15) • A.: Yes, that was the period. • Q.: And so were a number of these typewritten reports sent to your command, more than one a day? • A.: In this case, probably, yes. That is to say, yes, more than once a day, but I don't know whether this occurred every day during these (20)activities. But during that activity, they were sent out several times a day. • Q.: So --
MR. HARMON: Actually, I withdraw the question. I have no
additional questions, Mr. President.
(25)Witness U, thank you kindly.
(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness U, I would like to ask you two or three questions. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I have a first question for you to clarify matters. What was the date when you started your military (10)service in the JNA? • A.: Your Honours, the date I joined the ranks of the Yugoslav People's Army was the 6th of April, 1982. JUDGE RIAD: Because we heard "1992". JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] That is precisely why I asked (15)the question, Judge. My next question: You said that at the end of your work, that is to say, there was a third entity between two communicating peoples, so the caller, the receiver, and this was the type of radio communication employed. I should like -- that is to say, part of your work was (20)anti-electronic warfare. How many devices did you actually have, if you can answer that question for me? • A.: Your Honour, do you mean how many sets of equipment we had or how many devices? I think you probably mean the number of devices. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The number of devices. (25)
• A.: The number of devices was over 20.
• A.: Your Honour, if you're asking about the devices, then one man works on one device. But the situation is different if we're talking (5)about sets. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] One device could intercept different frequencies or just one single frequency? • A.: One device would listen to several channels on one band, in one direction. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You also said that you could listen better to transmitters which, how shall I put it, which were -- to which your antenna was directed. So if you directed your antenna towards your transmitter, you could listen to that transmitter better, you could hear it better; is that correct? (15) • A.: Yes, that's right. Usually we would hear the participant better whose receiver we would listen to because that participant was facing the same problems that we were. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So does that mean that in the transcripts of the recordings, there are many things left out; that is to (20)say, that at that point in time you did not manage to hear well. Is that what we can gather from this? • A.: We did not manage to understand at that time.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. So, Witness, I think
we have no further questions for you. Thank you very much for coming
(25)here. We wish you a safe journey home. Don't move, please, because you
(5) MR. HARMON: The next witness is protected, Mr. President. Also we have some exhibits to regulate with this witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Oh, yes, that's true. Regarding the exhibits, Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: Yes. We would move into evidence Prosecutor's
(10)Exhibit 138, which is a map; Prosecutor's Exhibit 300, which is a list of
intercept operators, and we would ask that that be under seal;
Prosecutor's Exhibit 139, which is a green map with communication lines on
it; Prosecutor's 137, which is the VRS code names; and then we have a
series of notebooks, Prosecutor's Exhibits 279, 280, 282, 283, 284, 285,
(15)287, 288, 290, 294, and we would ask that all of those exhibits be under
seal because they contain the identities of this protected witness and
other protected witnesses who will be testifying in the immediate future;
then we have Prosecutor's Exhibit 301-1A, B, and C, which is an
intercepted communication taken by this witness; and 302A, B, and C, which
(20)is a second intercepted communication taken by this witness. There are
French and English versions with each of those. I believe that is the
list of the exhibits.
I should add, I would ask that 301-1A, B, and C and 301-2A and B
be under seal as well as they will identify this witness by the initials
(25)that are attached on them.
MR. HARMON: No. We will lay the foundation for those notebooks, which essentially were from a different location, through a different (5)witness. I would like to add one additional exhibit I see on the chart. It is 302-1A, B, and C, if I haven't mentioned that already, and 302-2A, B, and C, again asking that those be under seal. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic. (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, allow me briefly to say something, hoping that I will not be misunderstood. In the course of the last hearings, when we received exhibits, we suggested to the Chamber and you agreed with us at the time that this case -- in this case too, we are receiving a large quantity of material (15)and we would appeal to the Chamber to give us time, until the end of this sitting, which I think is the end of July, for us to be able to express our opinion regarding the admission of these exhibits. Regardless of whether there will be any objections or not, the Defence will certainly not recall the witnesses in question. So that would be our request. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: I agree we have had this discussion before. There
are large volumes of evidence that we will be tendering in this session
and in the next session. We have advised the Defence in writing, and I
have advised them orally, I've invited them to apply the Rules of this
(25)Tribunal specifically to engage in reciprocal discovery. We have provided
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Certainly, Mr. Harmon,
there's no question that you have communicated in a timely fashion and in
appropriate form, but in any event, Mr. Petrusic tells us that he needs to
(20)review those documents, and to do so he needs a little more time. This
does not entail the possibility of recalling the witness.
So the question is whether or not you agree that we can discuss
the admission of these exhibits later, that is, to give some additional
time to Mr. Petrusic to review those exhibits and state his position
(25)regarding their admission.
JUDGE WALD: Mr. Harmon, leaving for a moment the Rule on (10)reciprocal discovery aside, isn't it possible, with such a large volume of material, for the Defence to get it a couple of days ahead of time or something so that this -- because it is kind of hard to take three volumes and run through them here. I know your argument, I understand it, on reciprocal discovery but I'm not convinced that that opportunity rules out (15)their having some reasonable period to look through them.
MR. HARMON: Judge Wald, the documents that are before Your
Honours, there are a number of volumes of the notebooks that are -- they
have available to them before we're offering them into evidence. So in
part, the area that you've addressed is met.
(20)In respect of the other concern, Your Honour, we have made our
position and repeated our position. Perhaps counsel and I can sit down
and reach an agreement, and we will attempt to do so, but I want to repeat
that I've advised the Defence on a number of occasions, both in writing
and orally, that there are large volumes of documents that are coming
(25)their way and they have been fully apprised of that and have elected
JUDGE WALD: Does that mean that your having informed them that a large number is coming, they couldn't look at them a couple of days ahead (5)of time, or a day ahead of time, have access to them without the reciprocal discovery Rule? MR. HARMON: I think we can find an accommodation, Judge Wald. I think we will; we just have to sit down and talk about it. JUDGE WALD: Thank you. (10)
MR. HARMON: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The Chamber is granting the necessary time to the Defence to review the documents. I think you asked until the end of this month, of June. Therefore, you will have this (15)additional time to review the documents, and after that the Chamber will make a determination regarding the admission of documents into evidence. So now we're going to have -- Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: I accept the Court's ruling, obviously, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] As you know, you cannot accept. (20)
MR. HARMON: But we accept the Court's ruling, Your Honour. I
only draw attention to the possibility that depending on whatever
questions the Defence poses at a later time, we may be required to call
back this witness or the successive witnesses that we have. So that
remains a possibility depending on the questions that are raised by the
(25)Defence. I point that out. I hope it doesn't come to pass but it's a
JUDGE RIAD: The Defence pointed out that he will not return to that. MR. HARMON: He may not need to, but depending on the questions he (5)raises, Judge Riad, we may wish to resolve the questions. JUDGE WALD: I would hope that you will not see our ruling as ruling out for future admissions your sitting down with Defence counsel and see if they get it a day or two ahead of time that they won't -- because otherwise I can understand your problem of waiting until the end (10)of the month and then having a lot of things at the end of the month. I think the better way would be, after this ruling, is if you give them time so they can make their objections at the time of the witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] All right, then. The decision has been made, and we are going to decide to have a half-hour break too. (15) --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.
--- On resuming at 1.29 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me? (20) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I can. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You're going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to give you, please. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. (25)
WITNESS: WITNESS V
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please be seated. Are you comfortable, Witness? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The usher is going to show you a piece of paper with your name written on it. Tell us, yes or no, is that indeed your name? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So now you're going to answer (10)questions which Mr. Cayley is going to put to you, who is on your right. Mr. Cayley, your witness. MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, learned Defence counsel. • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: (15) • Q.: Good afternoon, Witness. I shall call you "Witness V" during your evidence in order to protect your identity, and if you could remember not to mention any names of your colleagues while you are testifying, in order to ensure their security as well. My first question: What nationality are you? (20) • A.: Bosniak. • Q.: What is your faith? • A.: Muslim. • Q.: In what years did you do your regular military service in the former Yugoslavia? (25)
• A.: In 1991.
• A.: In the Anti-Aircraft Defence Regiment, I was a signalsman. • Q.: Now, you were a signaller, a signalman. Can you explain to the Judges what that involved and what type of skills you learned in the JNA (5)as a signaller? • A.: They are the duties of a signalman. I was taught to use radio equipment, on conduct in radio communications, and that sort of thing. • Q.: At what level of headquarters did you work as a signaller? • A.: At the level of regiment. (10) • Q.: Where was the communications equipment located that you worked on within the regiment? • A.: It was at Vozra. • Q.: Did the regiment have a command vehicle in which communications equipment was installed, and that's where you worked? (15) • A.: Yes, yes. • Q.: Now, in order to move forward quickly in time, I think you left the JNA in May of 1992, and you eventually returned to Tuzla, arriving in Tuzla in August of 1992; is that correct? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: What unit of the Bosnian army did you join in March of 1993? • A.: Electronic Reconnaissance and Anti-Electronic Warfare. • Q.: Witness, just one point. You're using some technical terms, and you speak very quickly. So if you could try and speak a little more slowly, that would make the lives of the interpreters easier. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: If Prosecutor's Exhibit 138 could be placed on the
• Q.: Witness, whereabouts was this unit located in March of 1993? • A.: Majevica Mountain, the location called Okresanica. • Q.: Could you just look at the map next to you and point to the Judges the location of your unit when you joined it in March of 1993? (10) • A.: [Indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating the green circle marked "Okresanica" on Prosecutor's Exhibit 138. • Q.: Now, Witness, if you know, to whom was your unit directly subordinated in the military chain of command? (15) • A.: To the command of the 2nd Corps. • Q.: Can you explain to the Judges very briefly what your responsibility was as a soldier within this unit at Okresanica? • A.: I worked there as a radio surveyor using the equipment. My responsibilities -- we would be divided into shifts of six hours each, and (20)that is it. • Q.: Now, you've stated that your responsibility was as a radio surveyor. Can you explain to the Judges the process that you went through?
MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's
(25)Exhibit 298 and 299, that might assist him.
• A.: Taking over duties when my shift started, we would receive (5)instructions from colleagues who worked in the previous shift on the intensity of communications, the type of communications, everything that had happened in the previous shift. We would take our seats at the equipment, at the devices. We would monitor everything. And when a conversation was aired, we had tape recorders for recording. We would (10)switch them on. We would intercept the conversation, then transcribe it, and that was our duty. MR. CAYLEY: If you could put 298 back on the -- • Q.: Witness, could you identify this equipment for the Judges? • A.: It's amateur equipment, readjusted for the work we did. These are (15)amateur apparatuses. • Q.: Is this the equipment which you listened to these radio transmissions on? • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: If the next exhibit, which is 299, could be placed on (20)the ELMO. • Q.: What is this, Witness? • A.: It's an Uher tape recorder. • Q.: How was it possible to record conversations from the receiver onto the tape recorder? (25)
• A.: They were connected with cables.
• A.: When a conversation has been recorded, the tape would be rewound (5)to the beginning of the conversation, and then that conversation would begin to be transcribed. • Q.: What would happen if there was anything you couldn't hear properly on the tape? • A.: If we couldn't hear something, then a couple of colleagues would (10)come and then we would try to decipher it together, and if we didn't succeed, then we would put dots to indicate that that part of the conversation was unintelligible. • Q.: Was it possible to identify the participants in any conversation that you heard? (15) • A.: Yes. Mostly they themselves would give their names. We recognised some of them but it was not up to us to say who they were. In most cases they identified themselves. • Q.: Now, principally, whose military communications were you listening to? Which party to the conflict were you listening to at Okresanica? (20) • A.: The army of Republika Srpska. • Q.: Now, once you had transcribed a conversation from a tape yourself, what happened to that written record that you had made? • A.: It would be forwarded to the command, and therefore further processing. (25)
• Q.: In what form was it forwarded to the higher command, if you know?
• Q.: So you stated in your evidence that you would produce a written (5)form of the conversation, and you now state that a typed form of the conversation went to the higher command. So another soldier was involved in the process of making that typed report; is that correct? • A.: Yes. But I would like to explain that when transcribing the conversation, it was first in my handwriting and then he would copy it out (10)on the computer, this other soldier. • Q.: Are you aware of what happened to the tapes that you used on the tape machine? • A.: Many tapes, because they were in short supply, were used several times over, so I don't know what happened to them. I think they were all (15)taped over. • Q.: The procedure that you've just explained to the Judges is the procedure that you went through throughout your time of duty. You repeated this process throughout your time of duty at Okresanica. • A.: Yes. Yes, it is. (20) • Q.: Am I right in saying that you were working at Okresanica in July of 1995? • A.: Yes.
MR. CAYLEY: For the Court's information, Your Honours, the name
of this witness appears on the list which the previous witness actually
(25)placed before the Court. It's Exhibit 300 and he's on that exhibit. I
• Q.: Witness, what I would like you to do now, and we've already (5)discussed this, is to identify conversations which you took down at or about the period of July 1995. MR. CAYLEY: If 313 could be placed in front of the witness. • Q.: This is an extract from a notebook and we'll talk about the notebooks in a moment. Do you recognise your handwriting on those two (10)pieces of paper? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Is this a conversation that you took down? • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: If that could now be placed on the ELMO, and if the (15)witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 279. Exhibit 279, Your Honours, is the complete notebook. • Q.: Now, in fact, Prosecutor's Exhibit 279 is a book that was numbered at the time, and if you look in the top right-hand corner, rather than me using the Tribunal's evidence registration numbers which are long, if you (20)turn to page 31, and you can see the numbers. MR. CAYLEY: If you can assist the witness. Your Honours, the ERN number is 00778878; there is a "31" in the top right-hand corner.
• Q.: Now, the conversation which you've just identified, can you see it
(25)within this notebook?
• Q.: Just for confirmation, is that page 31, if you look at the top right-hand corner of that piece of paper? • A.: Yes. (5) MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has identified that the previous conversation is contained within Prosecutor's Exhibit 279 at pages 00778877 and 00778878. • Q.: Now, you stated earlier, Witness, that often the participants in conversations identified themselves. Is this particular conversation an (10)example of that, or at least an indication of the unit that was involved in this conversation? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you explain to the Judges why that's so. • A.: Most probably they did not abide by radio communications rules, or (15)they didn't know that we were listening in. • Q.: What is the identification within this particular intercept? What is the word that identifies the unit? • A.: It is the secret name Zlatar. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges, if you can from memory, what the call (20)sign "Zlatar" means? What military unit does that indicate? • A.: It is the command of the Drina Corps.
MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I anticipate actually reading this out
myself, if that is all right, rather than asking the interpreters to do
it. I'll read the official English translation, which is 313/A.
(25)The particular intercept is titled "785.000 MHz, Channel 5, 1345
(Z.:) Hello. (5) (O.:) Yes. (Z.:) This is Zlatar. Tell me, are there any complications over there at the connection with the 4th Battalion, with those boys? (O.:) /? They advanced about ten miles /crossed (10)out: 1447 hours, channel 5/ (O.:) Hello. Nothing has been /illegible/ (Z.:) Yes. (O.:) And /illegible/, whatever happened happened. (15) (Z.:) I have some information that there was some /illegible/ between my /unit/ and you guys. (O.:) Well, there was. (Z.:) Well, there was for example towards (20)Konjevic Polje and Kosprat /as written/ stop. (O.:) We have no information that it's like that /as written/ (Z.:) What have you done there?
(O.:) Well, listen. It's been determined
(25)here ... and still nothing happens to
(Z.:) ... the forward command post there. (O.:) Please, I can just put you through /? up there/ to General Krstic. He's in charge of (5)this attack." And then there is in brackets that the conversation breaks off. • Q.: Now, Witness, towards the end of this conversation, there are a number of dots that you referred to. Does that indicate words that clearly couldn't be heard in the conversation? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, if you could go to the beginning of this journal, in fact the second page, and there's a date. Do you see a date written there? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is the date that's written there? (15) • A.: The 26th of June, 1995. MR. CAYLEY: If you could go to the second-to-last page of this journal, Mr. Usher. It's the page with the table full of numbers on it, the numbers irrelevant, part of the notebook. • Q.: There's a date at the top of that page, Witness, with "A/A" (20)written on it. What is the date and what does "A/A" mean? • A.: It means "Ad Acta", end of diary, 24th of July, 1997. • Q.: You said "the 24th of July". Can you look at the number again? Is it a "4" or a "7"? • A.: Sorry, 1995. (25)
• Q.: Sorry, there's a misunderstanding. Is it a "4" or is it a "7"?
• A.: 24th of July, 1995. • Q.: So would it be correct to say that the conversation that we've just referred to was taken down at some time between the 26th of June, (5)1995, which is the date at the beginning of this book, and the date of the last entry or the filing of this diary on the 27th of July, 1995, as far as you know? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And can you be any more specific about the date in respect of this (10)particular intercept? • A.: At the beginning of every day, the date would be indicated usually when we started working, and so the intercepts for that day can be found. • Q.: You and I have already looked in this booklet, and in this particular case the date was not written at the beginning of the shift; is (15)that right? • A.: Yes, correct. • Q.: Is that exceptional, do you think? Was the normal process to write the date at the beginning of every shift? • A.: It was customary, but it happened that it was left out. That (20)depended on the circumstances. MR. CAYLEY: If we could move to the next exhibit, which is 314, and if the witness could be shown 314C. Mr. Usher, if you could put it in front of the witness, to start with, before on the ELMO so he can look at it. (25)
• Q.: Can you look through that, Witness, and see if you recognise that
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Is that your handwriting? • A.: It is. (5) • Q.: Is this an intercept that you transcribed from a tape? • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: If now, Mr. Usher, we could go back to page 31 of Exhibit 279. • Q.: Can you look on that page and, I think, the following pages and (10)see whether or not the intercept that you've just looked at as an extract is actually contained within the notebook. Look at all of the pages, just to make sure. Is that the same conversation? • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: Now, Mr. President, I'm not going to read all of this (15)document. The witness has laid the foundation. But I am going to read, from the English version, at the bottom of page 2, because that's actually important for the next intercept, for the identification of the next intercept. So I'm reading now from the bottom of page 2, where it begins: (20) (C.:) Just a moment. Hello. My boys here are looking for Zlatar Duty Operations Officer. Is that you? (X.:) I'm not, but I'm here. (C.:) Could you call them? (25)
(X.:) Yes.
(X.:) This is Komjenovic. Go ahead, General, Sir. (K.:) I asked to be put through to Krsmanovic. (5)Is he there? (X.:) /illegible/ Krsmanovic isn't here, but I assume ... down you have to /call/ again. (K.:) Come on, put me through to him again, Zlatar." (10) • Q.: Again, Witness, we won't belabour the point, but this is an intercept that was taken from the same booklet as the last one, which has a beginning date of 26 June 1995 and an end date of 24 July 1995; do you agree with that? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: So would it be safe to say that you took this intercept down sometime between the 26th of June, 1995 and the 24th of July, 1995? • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: Now, Mr. Usher, if we can move to the next exhibit, which is 315. (20) • Q.: If you could read that through, Witness. • A.: [As read] General Krstic/X/ - Krsmanovic/Y/. (X.:) What's happened with the buses? (Y.:) ... (25)
(X.:) Start out immediately, and they should do
(Y.:) /inaudible/. (X.:) Hey, do you understand "immediately"? They should start immediately. (5) (Y.:) /inaudible/. (X.:) Come on. (Y.:) Just a moment. • Q.: Witness, how were you able to identify General Krstic as "X" and Krsmanovic as "Y"? (10) • A.: Because both names begin with a "K" so this was to differentiate. • Q.: The question that I have for you, and it refers to the previous conversation which I read out, how were you able to identify "X" as General Krstic and "Y" as Krsmanovic on the radio net? • A.: From the previous conversation, the one that you read out. This (15)is just a continuation of that conversation. • Q.: That was the conversation in which General Krstic identified himself and specifically asked for Krsmanovic. • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: If, Mr. Usher, you could go to page 34 in Exhibit (20)279. That, I think, actually demonstrates the point. • Q.: Could you look at page 34 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 279, Witness. The conversation in the top left-hand corner, is that the same conversation that you have just read out? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: If you could go back to the previous page, page 33, which is the
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Again, and finally, this particular journal, this again is contained in the journal which is dated 26 June, 1995 at its commencement and 24th July 1995 at its filing date, would you agree with me that this is another conversation that took place during those two dates, that you took down during those two dates? (10) • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 316C. • Q.: Could you look over that conversation and state whether or not you took that conversation down. It's a number of pages so look at every (15)page. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, to demonstrate the point, if you could just look at 316/1B, which is the final two pages of this document, it's the last two pages of this exhibit, and if you could look at that and then place it on the (20)ELMO. Is that the typed copy of your conversation which you referred to earlier in your evidence? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: That's the copy that would have been sent to the higher command;
(25)is that correct?
MR. CAYLEY: If now, Mr. Usher, you could make available Prosecutor's Exhibit 294, and I'm afraid I can't give you a page number apart from 00782000. It's actually towards the end of this document. (5)It's the sixth page from the end. 2000, I think. Yes. • Q.: Could you look at the conversation, the bottom right-hand corner and over the next subsequent pages, and confirm that that is the intercept which I've just shown you. Look at all of the pages. • A.: Yes. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has, in fact, confirmed that Prosecutor's Exhibit 316C is contained, beginning at page 00782000, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 294. • Q.: If, Witness -- the usher will need to help you here -- you could go back to page 00781988, do you see any date on that page? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is the date? • A.: The 12th of July, 1995. • Q.: Could you leaf through those pages, between the page with the date on and the page where the intercept that you took down is found, and see (20)if you find any other date. • A.: No, just that one date, and this conversation was recorded on the same day, the 12th of July, 1995. • Q.: If you could, just for completeness, go to the end of that book, and could you state the date on which this book was finished? (25)
• A.: The 17th of July, 1995.
• A.: The one but last page. • Q.: Thank you, Witness. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm not going to read this (5)conversation; it's a very long one. I just will lay foundation for that with the witness. Mr. Usher, just so we can prepare ourselves, if you could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 283 at hand and also Prosecutor's Exhibit 317 and 318. We're nearly finished, Mr. Usher. This is a very short (10)conversation. If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 317C. • Q.: If you could read that conversation over. You don't need to read it for the benefit of the Judges, I shall read it, but is that your handwriting? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Is this a conversation which you wrote down? Is this an intercept which you took down? • A.: Yes. • Q.: I think again, if you look at the next page, there is another example of the report made to the higher command; is that right? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: That's Prosecutor's Exhibit 317/D. If that could be placed on the ELMO. Now, Witness, do you see a date on this particular intercept? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you read the date out? (25)
• A.: The 13th of July, 1995.
• Q.: If you could look on that page and state whether or not you see the conversation which you've just identified to the Judges as being one of yours. (10) • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has confirmed that the conversation in Exhibit 317 is contained in Prosecutor's Exhibit 283. If, Mr. Usher, you could turn back to page 46 of that diary. (15) • Q.: Witness, is there a date on this particular page? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is the date? • A.: The 13th of July, 1995. • Q.: Could you just go through the pages. Between the page with that (20)date and the page on which is written the relevant conversation, do you see any other dates? • A.: No. This conversation was on the same day, the 13th of July, 1995.
• Q.: Which, indeed, is the same date that's contained on the
(25)typewritten copy of the same conversation, isn't it?
• Q.: Just to go to the end of this booklet, on the second to last page, if you could just -- I think it's a school child's geometry book that was used. What's the date that was written there? (5) • A.: The 17th of July, 1995. • Q.: And is that the date when the book was closed or filed? • A.: Yes, when it was closed. MR. CAYLEY: I will just read this conversation into the transcript, Mr. President. It has written at the top "785.000, Channel 5, (10)at 1355 hours". "Participants: Colonel Milanovic - Palma (duty officer) (M.:) Hello, Colonel Milanovic speaking. (P.:) Go ahead, Colonel. (15) (M.:) Hey, listen, bud. Is your bulldozer somewhere around there, not the bulldozer but the one with the scoop, whatever you call it? (P.:) Yes. (20) (M.:) Well, he should report to Konjevic Polje, to be there for us. (P.:) ... (M.:) And where on the ground is it, damn it? (P.:) ... (25)
(M.:) There is nothing before?
(M.:) Okay. Bye." And then it's signed --- there's a box indicating where the intercept was signed. (5)Now, the last one that we're interested in, if that could be shown to the witness. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 318. • Q.: Witness, if you recall, do you recall the call sign Palma, who that was within the VRS chain of command? • A.: I think it was the Zvornik Brigade, if I remember correctly. (10) • Q.: If you could look at 318/C, do you recognise this document? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Is this your handwriting? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And is this an intercept which you took down? (15) • A.: It is. MR. CAYLEY: And if we could now turn finally, Mr. Usher, to Exhibit 283 and page 50. • Q.: Do you see the conversation? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: And is that the same conversation that you've just identified to the Judges? • A.: It is.
MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness has confirmed
that the conversation contained in Prosecutor's Exhibit 318 is part of a
(25)notebook, Prosecutor's Exhibit 283 at page 00804845.
• A.: The 13th of July, 1995. • Q.: If you could go now through to the relevant conversation at page (5)50 of this booklet, and as you're going through, can you check if there are any other dates written in there? • A.: No, there aren't any. That was a conversation on the same day. • Q.: Which day was that? • A.: The 13th of July, 1995. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Witness. Actually, Mr. President, finally, I'll read this conversation into the record. The frequency is at the top, "785.000". "Channel 11, 1730 hours. (15)Participants: (X.:) Is it possible for us to send about ten buses from Bijeljina? (Y.:) Well, tell them right away to come. There's about 6.000 of them now. (20) (X.:) Off military age? (Y.:) Shut up, don't repeat. (X.:) Okay. Then I'll send them?
(Y.:) Yeah, send them. I have three points,
fuck it. There's the one where you and I
(25)were, then there's the one up there where the
(X.:) So over there as well? (5) (Y.:) At each point there are roughly 1.500 to 2.000. (X.:) And they're still transporting the women and children? (Y.:) Well, there's still some left. (10) (X.:) I thought it was /finished/. We were there too, on the spot, there aren't that many of them. (Y.:) Well, I was there just now. (X.:) So there are still some? (15) (Y.:) Yeah, I just came /from there/. (X.:) Okay. Then I have to send them and have them report there in Kasaba to the last. /as printed/ (Y.:) Have them report to the stadium. (20) (X.:) Okay, we'll fill up over at Jovo's. (Y.:) Let them fill up over there at Kundasevic's. (X.:) Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Good.
(Y.:) Okay. Have them start right away. I'll
(25)see if I can get two more of those guys to
(X.:) Give as many as you can. Over there I figured out not to use our Deutz /truck/. (Y.:) Yeah, I know, I was with Radakovic. (5) (X.:) Because there's really no /need/. They can carry a small number, fuck it. There's no need and we might need them to transport units or something like that. (Y.:) Yeah, I was with Radakovic. (10) (X.:) Is that job finished? (Y.:) Well, they're at the intersection, gathering /them/. (X.:) Good. Have 'em drive them away and then come back. (15) (Y.:) Well, they'll have to drive until they are all gone. (X.:) Good. Okay, I'll tell him. (Y.:) Okay, bye. (X.:) Bye." (20)And then there is a "/signed/". • Q.: Now, Witness, you refer in this particular example to the participants as "X" and "Y". Is this an example of where, as you said earlier in your evidence, you couldn't identify the speakers in this conversation? (25)
• A.: In every situation, there were occasions where they didn't
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't have any further questions for (5)the witness, so I can offer him for cross-examination. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. Perhaps we could start the cross-examination tomorrow, because it's 2.30 now, and this will give you a bit of time to prepare the (10)cross-examination, Mr. Petrusic, for tomorrow. Witness, we are going to continue tomorrow. We'll be here at 9.30, and you will have the opportunity of having a bit of a rest. We adjourn until tomorrow.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
(15)2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on
Tuesday, the 20th day of June, 2000,
at 9.30 a.m.
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