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/ Colormap • Page 4325 • {1/85} (1)Wednesday, 21 June 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the technical booth, to the interpreters, to the legal assistants and court reporters, Madam Registrar, Mr. Harmon and Mr. Cayley. Good morning, Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Visnjic, and good morning, (10)Mr. Krstic. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: [Int.] I hear you very well. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You are now going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to hand you, please. (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS X JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated. Are you (20)sitting comfortably? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Okay. You are now going to be shown a piece of paper by the usher, and please say yes or no if it is your name on the piece of paper. (25)
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Yes.
(5) MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, learned Defence counsel. • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Witness, I will be calling you "Witness X" during your testimony. This, as I explained to you, is to protect your identity. (10)A few preliminary questions for you. What is your nationality? • A.: I am a Bosniak Muslim. • Q.: Could you give the Court the dates of your national service in the JNA? • A.: I spent a year in the JNA between 1979 and 1980. (15) • Q.: Could you briefly give the Court details of your educational background? • A.: I started to be a technician, and I have spent my entire working life working with technology as a technician. • Q.: I want to move rapidly ahead in time to 1992. In that year, did (20)you join the Bosnian army? • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: Let's now move forward to 1994, to August of 1994. What unit of the Bosnian army did you join at that time?
• A.: In August 1994, I joined the unit for electronic surveillance and
(25)anti-electronic warfare.
• Q.: Witness, were you given any training prior to operational service in this unit? (5) • A.: I received training after I joined that unit, that is to say, one month later. • Q.: How much training did you receive? • A.: The training lasted a month, and I was taught the basics of radio technology, because I knew nothing in the field. So they taught us the (10)basics of that job. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could move that exhibit down towards the witness about two or three centimetres. No, down. Yes, sorry, towards me. • Q.: Witness, could you point out on that exhibit, using the pointer, (15)and you need to do it on the copy on the ELMO, the location of this anti-electronic unit? • A.: This place here. MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness is indicating a green circle marked "Okresanica" on Prosecutor's Exhibit 138. Thank (20)you, sir. • Q.: Now, you started work at the unit in August of 1994. Can you explain to the Judges what the purpose of this unit was at Okresanica very briefly, because the Judges have heard from a number of witnesses on the same point. (25)
• A.: I was part of a unit entrusted with the task of monitoring
• Q.: If you were unable to properly hear a conversation when listening to a tape, what would you do? (10) • A.: There were many difficult situations, that is to say, where we could hear the conversation but that there was a lot of interference and it was partly audible. But where the conversation was clear, the request was that anything we take down in written form should comply with the original. So if everything was clear, we would write it down. If it was (15)inaudible or not clear, we would put three dots, and we did not write anything because we weren't able to understand it sufficiently. • Q.: If there was ever an occasion where something was reasonably audible, did you and your colleagues listen to the tape together to decide what the speaker was saying? (20) • A.: We tried to do that. We did our best to understand the incoming information on the tape. There were different ways of doing this. Some of my colleagues had a greater affinity for some of the speakers, others knew the speakers less well. So we would help each other to record every conversation authentically. (25)
• Q.: Now, you say in your evidence that you would essentially write
(5) • A.: I should just like to correct you and say that the report wasn't processed after it was typed. The report was typed by the soldier who was responsible to me but officially in the command, and then would just send on the report in the same state that I handed it to him. It was not up to him to change anything. He didn't -- he wasn't allowed to change (10)anything, and sometimes we would read the report. A report which would be sent on to the command would go to the command itself and be processed there. I never worked in the command on the processing of reports. And that was the procedure that we followed. • Q.: To whom was your unit directly subordinated? (15) • A.: Our unit was within the composition of the command of the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
• Q.:
[redacted]
• A.:
[redacted] • Q.: Can you explain to the Judges very briefly the shift procedures that were adopted within your unit?
• A.: Our shifts lasted -- that is to say, we had two groups, two groups
of soldiers. One worked on the device and the others were resting, and we
(25)would take turns. We would hand over our duty to each other. And the
• Q.: How long were the shift periods? • A.: The shifts -- the shortest shifts were seven days. Sometimes they would last 15 or more days depending on the circumstances. Sometimes we would all be working together; that is to say, there would be no (15)replacement of shifts but the shifts would work together. Then we would have a rest period after that. • Q.: Whilst you were on shift, for how many hours did you work in a day? Were there shifts within the 7 or 14-day shifts? (20)
• A.: Usually we would have two groups and we would expand these groups,
but there were never less people in the groups, there could only be more,
and our command always requested as many people as possible in the room,
the actual room where we did our work.
[redacted]
and work there and align this with their physical capabilities. Sometimes
(25)there were too few of us and too many obligations and responsibilities, so
• Q.: So there were occasions when within the 7 or 14-day period you were unable to take any breaks? • A.: Yes, there were occasions like that, especially for the (5)responsible individuals, those who led the shift, because they were, in part, responsible for the order and running of the work and to see that the plan set by the command was put into practice. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibits 298 and 299, please, and if (10)300 could be prepared, which is a sealed exhibit. • Q.: Witness, do you recognise this photograph? • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: What is this? • A.: Those are two devices. One device was intended for the monitoring (15)of radio relay connections, and it is the AR800, and the second device was for RRU1 for relay stations. • Q.: Could you point to the device and name it? Because I'm not familiar with the devices myself. The device on the left of the photograph on Prosecutor's Exhibit 298, what is that device? (20) • A.: The device on the left-hand side is an amateur device for short wave radio communication, and it has an addition which adapts it for radio relay, and it is the Kenwood 4500 device. We had two of these. So this is the device on the left-hand side. • Q.: And the device on the right-hand side of this photograph? (25)
• A.: The device on the right-hand side of the photograph is the ICR100
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show the witness is pointing on the right-hand side to the larger black box. (5) • Q.: Did you use these pieces of equipment while you served in the unit? • A.: Yes, we did. We used these pieces of equipment and other similar equipment. MR. CAYLEY: And if 299 could be placed on the ELMO, please. (10) • Q.: And very briefly, Witness, what is this photograph? • A.: That is a tape recorder of the Uher type. It is intended for recording interesting conversations, that is to say, conversations that could be heard on the receiver devices. • Q.: And how was it connected to the receiver? (15) • A.: The Uher tape recorder is connected all the time to the receiver, one of the two receivers that you showed on the previous photograph, and it is switched on manually by the button. As soon as an interesting conversation comes up, it is switched on. I switch it on, as the operator. (20) MR. CAYLEY: If now the witness could be given Prosecutor's Exhibit 300, and do not place this on the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher. • Q.: Now, Witness, could you look at the second name on that list and confirm or otherwise whether that is you? • A.: Yes, that is my name and surname. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: And that, Your Honours, is Prosecutor's Exhibit 300,
• Q.: Witness, finally on the process itself, how did you identify the speakers within any conversation that you listened to and that you (5)recorded onto the tape? • A.: There were many problems in identifying the speaker, but the command's request was reliable information. Very often the speakers, in the conversation or during the conversation itself, they would mention their own names, so that was a way that we heard who the speakers were. (10)Second, having done this work for a long time, we knew the participants in the conversations very well without them having to introduce themselves. If we did not know who the participants in the conversation were, we would place "X" or "Y", the letters "X" or "Y". MR. CAYLEY: If the witness -- (15) THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry. If the witness could now be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 319, and that's specifically 319C. And I would suggest that if we put anything on the ELMO, it is the English version, since the Bosnian written version has the signature of the witness. If (20)you could give it to the witness, please, Mr. Usher. Madam Registrar, just so that we're in a position to deal with this, we need all of the notebooks as well, which is 279, 284, 290, and 282. • Q.: Witness, do you recognise 319C? (25)
• A.: I recognise it. I recognise the first paper that has been handed
• Q.: Is that your handwriting? • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: And I think on the last page of this four-page document, there is, in fact, a typed copy of the conversation. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Is this an example of the process that was carried out at the unit of one of the soldiers typing into the computer the written version for (10)transmission up the chain of command? • A.: That's right, yes. MR. CAYLEY: Now, if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 279. • Q.: Now, previously, Witness, I've shown you some notebooks, and I (15)just wish you to confirm or otherwise -- I will direct the usher to the page so that you don't have to go through the whole file -- whether or not the report that you've just read out is contained within that particular notebook.
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could assist the witness, please,
(20)it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 279 and the page number in the top right-hand
corner is 45. And, Your Honours, the registration number from the
Evidence Unit, the last four digits, which are the only four you need, are
8906. I think it's the previous exhibit, Mr. Usher. It's the first
exhibit in this book.
(25)Mr. President, may I approach the witness, because I think it will
• Q.: Now, Witness, if you could look at the bottom right-hand page that's in front of you at the moment, do you see the conversation at the bottom of that page which starts: "255.850, 0834", and then the word (5)"Urgent" is mentioned. Is that the same conversation that you've just identified in Prosecutor's Exhibit 319 as being a conversation that you took down? • A.: Yes, it is the same conversation. • Q.: Is that your signature at the bottom right-hand corner of the (10)page? • A.: Yes. That was how I marked my conversations. MR. CAYLEY: I will read this into the record, Mr. President. Fortunately, it's a very brief conversation. And, Mr. Registrar, the -- if you could leave 279 with the (15)witness, but if I could prepare you for the next one whilst we're doing this, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, which is contained in the same volume. So if you wait one moment I will assist if there are any problems, but let me read this. It starts with the frequency: "255.850. 0834 hours. Urgent." (20)The next line is: (X.:) Semso Muminovic is asking for V. Pandurevic to call him on number 144 985."
• Q.: Now, Witness, in this particular example you've use the symbol
(25)"X". Is this an example of where you're unable to identify one of the
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, in our previous discussions, you had indicated to me that so much time had passed that you were unable to accurately date this (5)conversation. But if you could go to the first -- correction. If you could go to the second and third page of this document. So back to the beginning of the document. MR. CAYLEY: Now, if we could go back, I think, one more page, Mr. Usher, to the front. (10) • Q.: If you turn to the next page, which is the second page of the document, 8816. Is there a date on that page, Witness? • A.: Yes, on that page there is a date. • Q.: What is the date? • A.: The date is the 26th of June, 1995. (15) • Q.: Could you turn to the next page? There is a date there. That is page 3 of this document, 8818. What date is on that page? • A.: On this page the date is the 23rd of June, 1995. • Q.: What is indicated by the date of 26th June 1995 on the previous page, if you know? (20) • A.: The date, the 26th of June, the date at the beginning of the notebook, marks the date when the notebook started to be used. • Q.: What does the date on the next page, the 23rd of June, 1995, what does that indicate?
• A.: That indicates when the command which gave us the notebooks
(25)registered that notebook in its registry book.
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: And if you could go to the penultimate page of this document, the last but one. MR. CAYLEY: The last but one page, so that page, Mr. Usher. Thank you. • Q.: There is a date at the top of this page. It has "A/A", which I (10)think is a Latin abbreviation. What is the date on that page? • A.: The date is the 24th of July, 1995. • Q.: What does "A/A" stand for? • A.: It is customary for us to indicate in that way the date when the notebook is placed in the archives. (15) • Q.: So if the notebook was placed in the archives on the 24th of July, 1995, it's safe to say that the conversation that you took down was taken down sometime before that date? • A.: Yes. When the notebook is filled in, it would remain in the building until the next shift, and when the next shift came, the command (20)would take over the notebooks and place them in the archives. • Q.: When you use the word "filled in," just to make it absolutely clear for the record, you mean when the notebook was entirely full? When there was no more space left in it to write any more conversations, it would be filed in the archive? (25)
• A.: Yes, that's right. The whole notebook had to be full for it to be
• Q.: Thank you. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be given Prosecutor's Exhibit 320. (5) • Q.: Just finally on Prosecutor's Exhibit 319, how did you know that the other speaker was Jevdjevic, if you can recall? • A.: May I correct you? Jevdjevic, yes. I assume that talking to the signalman who established the link, the connection, heard that somebody was looking for something in this particular case. If I had recognised (10)the voice, I would have given the name, but I assumed this conversation was preceded by the signalman of the enemy army establishing communication. • Q.: And that is missed from the written transcript, because by the time you'd pressed the play button on the tape recorder that part of the (15)conversation had passed? • A.: There were such cases, but the procedure regarding the establishment of the conversation was not recorded as it was always the same. • Q.: Am I right in saying that as you heard the beginning of the (20)conversation, you would write down the names of the participants on a scrap of paper? Was that your policy, if you heard the speakers identified? • A.: Yes. It was the best situation if you could recognise the speakers. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be shown Prosecutor's
• Q.: Do you recognise the handwriting in this, Witness? • A.: Yes. That is my handwriting. (5) • Q.: And this is an intercept which you took down? • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: If now the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, and this version that he's just identified can be placed on the ELMO, because there's no signature. For, Mr. Usher, Prosecutor's (10)Exhibit 284, you need to go to page 33, the last two digits of the seven-digit number -- the eight-digit number, if you go to page 33. So that, Your Honours, in that Exhibit 284 is page 00800633. In fact, you can use just the last three digits, because the others are the same throughout. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps the usher should be told that it is separator number 6 in the binder. MR. CAYLEY: You're absolutely right, Mr. President. That's actually very helpful. The tab number is 6. If you hand it to me, I can -- page 633. If you hand it to me, I can find it very quickly. (20)Mr. Usher, if you could hand the binder to the witness. You can place the other copy which he's just looked at, the extract, on the ELMO. • Q.: If you look, Witness, at the right-hand column on page 633, is that the same conversation that you've just identified? • A.: Yes. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: And, Your Honours, I will just confirm that the
(P.:) Hello, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic speaking. (R.:) Rasic here, Can I help you? (P.:) Rale! (15) (R.:) Yes? (P.:) I was just up there. (R.:) Yes. (P.:) I was with the boss personally. (R.:) Yes. (20) (P.:) Here where I am ... you know where I am? (R.:) I know. (P.:) Well, you got his interim report. (R.:) All of it.
(P.:) It's just like he wrote it ... I was
(25)there on the spot and was convinced he
(5) (R.:) You finished? (P.:) I finished everything. (R.:) Good. (P.:) I'll come there tomorrow when I'm sure that that's all been taken care of, you (10)know. (R.:) Good. (P.:) After I bring a transport from there. (R.:) Right. (P.:) Well, in general, there weren't any major (15)problems. But up there, there were horrible problems and that thing the commander sent, it was just the right thing. (R.:) Good. (P.:) Just the thing ... horrible ... it was (20)horrible. (R.:) Listen Vujadin. (P.:) What? (R.:) Tell me, did anything arrive there now from Vidoje Blagojevic? (25)
(P.:) From Vidoje?
(P.:) Yes ... You mean manpower? (R.:) Yes, yes ... did anything arrive? Something was supposed to arrive? (5) (P.:) Yes, it arrived ... it's up there ... it's up there but it didn't arrive on time and it wasn't brought in on time. And the others who arrived, did arrive, but they were late and so they weren't brought in on time, (10)and that's why the commander who was here had problems. (R.:) When exactly did Blagojevic's men arrive? (P.:) Fuck it, I don't know exactly, now I (15)can't ... (R.:) I know ... the duty officer /as printed/. (P.:) Maybe the duty officer ... here's the duty officer. (R.:) Let me talk to him. (20) (P.:) Okay. (D.:) Hello. (R.:) Hello! (D.:) Yes, go ahead? (R.:) When did Blagojevic's men arrive? (25)
(D.:) From Badem /code name/?
(D.:) I'll call you right back. (R.:) Okay, find out exactly and call me (5)back. (D.:) I will." • Q.: Now, Witness, this is an example of where the participants in the conversation introduce themselves on the radio, isn't it? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: Now, I know it's been a long time and I can assist you here because we have an exhibit, but do you recall what Zlatar was the code name for now? • A.: The code name Zlatar, as far as I know, stood for the command of the Drina Corps in Vlasenica. (15) • Q.: Do you remember what the code name Badem stood for? • A.: The code name Badem was linked to Bratunac, but I don't know the level of the unit. MR. CAYLEY: If now we could move to the next exhibit, which is 321. And just to prepare you, Mr. Usher, we're in the same main diary, so (20)it's tab 6, and the page number is 36. So you only need to, in fact, turn one, two pages and you're there. Don't place this on the ELMO because there's a signature on it. It's, again, a very short intercept. • Q.: Do you recognise the handwriting on Prosecutor's Exhibit 321/1C, Witness? (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Wait a moment, please. I think
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think we're ready now and we can continue. Please, Mr. Cayley, go ahead. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. (10) • Q.: So just to confirm with you, Witness, 321/1C, that's you're handwriting; correct? • A.: Yes, that is my handwriting. • Q.: And that is an intercept which you took down? • A.: It is. (15) • Q.: I think you have next to you Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, at page 00800636. Do you see that conversation on that page, bottom left-hand corner? • A.: Yes, I do. It is the same conversation. MR. CAYLEY: So just to confirm for the record that the witness (20)has confirmed that Prosecutor's Exhibit 321/1C is an extract from Prosecutor's Exhibit 284. • Q.: Now, Witness, if you could go to the second page of that particular journal. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could help him. If you would go
• Q.: Now, on this journal there is a date. What is the date on the second page of this journal? (5) • A.: On the second page of this journal the date is the 14th of July, 1995. • Q.: And you've previously told Their Honours that this is the date on which the first entry was entered into the notebook; is that correct? • A.: Correct. (10) • Q.: So is it correct to say that the conversation which you've identified in this notebook is a conversation that was taken down sometime after the 14th of July, 1995? • A.: Correct. • Q.: If I could just briefly read the English version, which is 321/2A (15)into the record. It's a very short conversation. "2153 hours. CH 3. Participants: Palma duty officer - Cerovic. (D.:) It's not closed yet but it's under control. (20) (C.:) OK. (D.:) Bye." Witness, do you recall now, after all this time, what the call sign for Palma was?
• A.: The Palma code sign was linked to the location of Zvornik. I
(25)assume the Zvornik Brigade.
• Q.: Now, Witness, if you turn to 322/1C, which is the third sheet on (5)the extract. Do you have that in front of you? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Is that your handwriting? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: Is that a conversation which you took down? (10) • A.: It is. MR. CAYLEY: Now, Mr. Usher, you if you could turn to page 1469. And I can help you here. It's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven pages from the beginning, 69. • Q.: Witness, if you look on the left-hand page. Do you see the (15)conversation that you've just stated was your conversation that you took down, bottom left-hand page of 1468? • A.: Yes, that is the conversation. MR. CAYLEY: So for the purposes of the record, the witness has confirmed that Prosecutor's Exhibit 322/1C is contained in the notebook (20)marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 290 at page 00801468. • Q.: Now, Witness, if you go to the beginning of this notebook, there is a date on the front of this notebook. What date is written? Can you read it? • A.: Yes. That is the date. It is the 16th of July, 1995. (25)
• Q.: Would it be correct to say that the conversation which you've just
• A.: That conversation should have been on the 16th or immediately after the 16th. (5) • Q.: Thank you, Witness. Again I will read it into the transcript. It's a fairly brief conversation. "Frequency 255.850 MHz. 1622 hours. Popovic -- Y (inaudible). (10)
(P.:) Hello, it's Popovic ... boss ...
Everything's OK, that job is done ...
everything's OK ... everything's been brought
to an end, no problems ... I'm here at the
place ... I'm here at the place where I was
(15)before, you know ... I'm at the base ...
at the base, the base. Can I just take a
little break, take a little break, take a
shower, and then I'll think again later ...
basically, that all gets an A ... an A ...
(20)the grade is an A, everything's okay ...
that's it, bye, take care. "
Then at the end of the conversation there is a note:
"French is heard in the background."
Now, you made this note at the end. Do you remember making the
(25)note about hearing the French language in the background?
MR. CAYLEY: If we could move to the next one, which is 323, and it's the same main journal, Mr. Usher, so we can stay with that one. And if you could look at the (5)323/1C. There's two pages. It's been photocopied onto two pages. • Q.: Do you recognise that conversation? • A.: That is the conversation that I made a note of. MR. CAYLEY: And if we could go to page 1477, tab 12 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 290. And you should look at that page and, indeed, (10)the next page, Witness. • Q.: Is that the same conversation? • A.: That is the same conversation, yes. MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness has confirmed that the extract, Prosecutor's Exhibit 323/1C, is contained at tab 12, (15)Prosecutor's Exhibit 290, on pages 00801477 and 00801478 to 79. • Q.: Now, again without repeating the process so we try and save some time, this booklet was commenced on the 16th of July, 1995, so would it be correct to say that the conversation that you've identified was taken down on or after the 16th of July, 1995? (20) • A.: That's right, yes. • Q.: And I think if you go to the end of this conversation, you see a typed version of the original, again to demonstrate what you've said previously about the typing process. Is that the typed transmission copy? • A.: Yes, it is. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: I'll read this into the record. This is Prosecutor's
(X.:) On the last point ... in the last sentence of point 2. (5) (Y.:) Wait till I see ... on the last point. (X.:) No, in the last point of point 2. (Y.:) Okay. (X.:) It says: and line 8, Petkovci - Balkovica - Memici. (10) (Y.:) Yes? (X.:) What's to the right of Petkovci? (Y.:) Petkovci? (X.:) Petkovci. (Y.:) Yes, yes. (15) (X.:) Well, Petkovci ... the front line is not in Petkovci. (Y.:) Well, then, in front of Petkovci. (X.:) Well, give it to me from the map, take it off, God damn it. (20) (Y.:) To tell you the truth, we don't have a map here and this interim report was typed by somebody else. (X.:) Listen, listen. Stay on the line. (Y.:) It says Petkovci, front line Petkovci. (25)
(X.:) We need to find a point at the front
(Y.:) But it's the same,... it's the same line as before, it didn't move back at all. (X.:) Okay, I know. (5) (Y.:) Yes, yes. (X.:) Hello! (Y.:) Yes, I hear you, I hear you. (X.:) I can't say on the Petkovci front line if the front line is not in Petkovci, you (10)understand? The front line is not there. (Y.:) We use these features /? as reference points/, which villages are near these ... (X.:) Stay on the line. Can we choose a village (a small one?)? (15) (Y.:) Will Androvici do? (X.:) That's not good... That's our area which is being combed and searched... Well, you understand what I'm asking you? (Y.:) You mean across from Petkovci. (20) (X.:) Okay, /?from now on/ in Petkovci. (Y.:) Yes, Petkovci. (X.:) Good. (Y.:) Well, it does say Petkovci here, so it must have been a mistake on the teleprinter. (25)
(X.:) Good, good. That's it.
• Q.: Witness, if you could look at the extract in front of you, is that your handwriting? • A.: It is. • Q.: And that is an intercept which you took down? (15) • A.: That's right. MR. CAYLEY: For the record, that's Prosecutor's Exhibit 324/1C. Now, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 284, Your Honours, we are going to go to page 652. That's the last three digits of the evidence registration number. (20) • Q.: Witness, do you have that page available in front of you? • A.: Yes, it's here. • Q.: And can you also look at the next page too, because I think the conversation ends on the next page. Is that the same conversation that you've just identified? (25)
• A.: Yes, it is.
(5) • Q.: Now, Witness, if you would go to the second page of this document, and it's one that I know we've already looked at, so back to the beginning of the whole notebook. If you look on the second page, you've already explained to Their Honours that this date is the date when the first conversation was taken down. (10)Is it correct to say that the conversation which you've just identified in this book took place at some time on or after the 14th of July, 1995? • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: And I will just read this one into the record. It's (15)actually quite a long one, but nevertheless I'll read it. "Channel 3 at 0812 hours. Colonel Cerovic - Vinko. (C.:) Colonel Cerovic wants to talk to him. : Okay. (20) (C.:) Hello. (V.:) Yes. (C.:) Good morning, Vinko. (V.:) Good morning. (C.:) How are you? (25)
(V.:) Well, I'm running around since last
(C.:) Where? (V.:) They are up there at Crni Vrh, over there at Potocani, Planinci, the part towards (5)Baljkovica. (C.:) Uh-huh. You mean the ones who are coming out on this side. Is that right? (V.:) Yes, from there and all of them are rushing over here to us. (10) (C.:) You rushed off first. Rushed off. (V.:) I really did, quite right. Well, yesterday we wiped out a bit more than 20 of them. (C.:) Uh-huh. Uh-huh. (15) (V.:) And this morning we started chasing about 150 of them over there. They are in some kind of encirclement. (C.:) And in which area are they surrounded? (V.:) That's the Planinci-Baljkovica area. (20) (C.:) That means in the areas of Planinci and Baljkovica. (V.:) Yes. (C.:) You are good ... Vinko. (V.:) Yes. (25)
(C.:) What's your plan for tomorrow for shift
(V.:) I don't have a shift for Trnovo. (C.:) Well, I know that was the order, that you've sent a report, however, that Eskic has (5)just called me from up there and said that he was yesterday somewhere at your place and that he heard you are doing a shift rotation. (V.:) No. I did a rotation of shift at (10)Nisici. (C.:) I'm telling you, the report he sent - there's not way it can be done ... That's Krstic's order, there are no shift rotations until further notice. (15) (V.:) It would be the best if we transfer our complete Corps to the SRK /Sarajevo-Romanija Corps/. (C.:) Yeah, that would be best. (V.:) No, seriously, I've sent you a report (20)yesterday. You could see what kind of losses we sustained. (C.:) Yes, and I presented that to Krstic and wrote him special /report/ based on your interim and daily reports. (25)
(V.:) Yes, that's correct.
(5) (V.:) Then he can take the brigade off the list of the living. (C.:) Well, if we finish this up there at (Zepa?) (V.:) Yes? (10) (C.:) Then we will, there is Blagoje and the others, and then we'll ... (V.:) Then we can. (C.:) Engage. (V.:) Of course. (15) (C.:) Okay then. Is there anything else new with you? (V.:) Well, nothing special. We are all engaged still, because the battalion, every single one of us is busy. (20) (C.:) Good ... please have your duty officer as usual, because he left. Strbac was here just now. (V.:) Yes.
(C.:) He is not interested and he doesn't want
(25)to do anything while he is duty officer.
(C.:) I got the same impression. (V.:) He always knows. Two days ago I was in (5)the field, to tell the truth, I was flailing around left and right, but he always had a fair idea of where I was. (C.:) I can't get in touch with the commander. For God's sake man, what do you mean you (10)can't? I told him, get a car and go and look for the commander. (V.:) He couldn't be bothered to live, let alone do anything. (C.:) Okay, Vinko. Good luck and stay in (15)touch. (V.:) Thank you. Take care. (C.:) And if you need something, give us a call here and we'll see what we can do. (V.:) Roger. (20) (C.:) Bye. (V.:) Take care."
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley, I understand.
Perhaps we could go on and complete this, because I think it's the
cross-examination afterwards, is it not? So I think that the next exhibit
(25)is shorter. What do you think, Mr. Cayley?
• Q.: Witness, if you go to the third page of that exhibit. MR. CAYLEY: So tab 4, Mr. Usher. And you want page 53 -- page (10)753. While you're looking for that ... • Q.: Witness, Prosecutor's Exhibit 325/C, is that your handwriting? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: And that's an intercept which you took down? • A.: Yes. (15) MR. CAYLEY: Now, if page 753 could be placed in front of the witness. Your Honours, this again, it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 282, and the last three digits of the evidence registration number is 753. • Q.: Witness, is that the same conversation? • A.: Yes, it is. (20) MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness has identified that Prosecutor's Exhibit 325/C is an extract from the notebook which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 282 at page 00781753.
• Q.: Now, Witness, if you go to the third page of this notebook, so
back to the beginning, there's a date on the top left-hand corner of that
(25)page. What is the date?
• Q.: This is on page 00781675. You've previously indicated that that's the date that the command registered the notebook; is that correct? • A.: This date was registered by the command in its register, and at (5)the beginning of the notebook is the date when the notebook began to be used. • Q.: If you look on this one, in fact, Witness, there is no date of when the commencement -- when the notebook commenced to be used, on the previous page. The 17th of July is the only date we have on this one. (10)Using the date of the registration, would it be correct to say that this conversation was taken down on or after the 17th of July, 1995? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: I'll read this into the record. It shouldn't take too long.
"Channel 5. 2158 hours.
(15)Lieutenant Colonel Popovic- Zlatar/code
name/OC/operation centre/duty officer
Delgadasi/as written/
Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was looking for
General Krstic, but the General was at home -
(20)telephone number 076/731 967. Since the
telephones "in the town were not working -
the exchange was out of order" they could not
reach Krstic, so Popovic left the following
message for him with duty officer Delgadsi:
(25)"Tell him that we are at Badem/code
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, that concludes my (5)examination-in-chief, so I can offer the witness for cross-examination. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, Mr. Cayley. We're now going to have a recess, well deserved, I think, a half-hour break. --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness X, you're now going to answer questions which I see that Mr. Visnjic is going to put to you. Mr. Visnjic, your witness. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: (15) • Q.: Good morning, Witness X. During the examination-in-chief by my learned friend the Prosecutor, regarding your education, you stated that you had an engineering education and that you spent your whole working life working in the field of engineering and associating with technicians. Is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: Could you tell us a little more about your technical education? • A.: I was mostly engaged in civil engineering works, earth-moving activities, and that sort of thing.
• Q.: So your technical education has nothing in common with the
(25)techniques supplied in radio communication; is that correct?
• Q.: Thank you. During your testimony, you said that in 1994 you were transferred to the unit for electronic surveillance and radio interception; is that correct? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: You also said that on that occasion you attended a one-month long course for training purposes. • A.: Yes, that is correct. • Q.: I will make a short pause between my questions because of the (10)interpreters. You also told us that during that training course you learnt the basics of radio communications; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: During that course, were you familiarised with the procedure for (15)the formation and storage of interception documents? • A.: That was not the subject of this training course, except as regards the actual capture of conversations and their forwarding. There was some discussion of processing, but that was not part of our regular duties. (20) • Q.: Also during your examination-in-chief, you said that at the beginning of January 1995 you became [redacted]; is that correct? • A.: It is. • Q.: Did you then attend any special course to become that? • A.: No, I did not. (25)
• Q.: Did any of your superiors at the time brief you in any way
• A.:
[redacted] • Q.: During your work at Majevica and especially after the time you became [redacted], did you receive from your command written orders regarding electronic interception? • A.: Written orders were not customary. A part of the order would come (10)through the communications system into the computer of my department. • Q.: You said "a part of the orders." Does that apply to the orders I was referring to, that is, orders on electronic surveillance and interception, consisting of the following elements: for instance, defining the enemy, the person you are intercepting, the party you are (15)intercepting? • A.: We knew who the enemy was. Throughout our stay there, we monitored only one enemy. And we monitored exclusively one zone of activity of the enemy; that is, the activity of enemy communications. • Q.: Do you know -- or, rather, let me withdraw that question. (20)In your work, did you coordinate with the other facilities at which the enemy was being monitored? • A.: I had a superior officer, and I did not enter into any other activities except those that were directly assigned to me.
• Q.:
[redacted]
• Q.: On that occasion when you were handing over duty, was any written (5)document compiled? • A.: No, no such documents existed. • Q.: When handing over duty, was any document drawn up regarding responsibility for the equipment? • A.: The routes of surveillance were in the computer, and they were (10)defined and only confirmed when shifts changed. No other documents were written. A simple visual review of the area, the equipment, and the devices was carried out. • Q.: But no document was compiled; is that right?
• A.: No, we didn't draw up any kind of document.
• A.: The general distribution for the whole shift was done, but work on
(25)devices was envisaged in such a way that the operators always had at their
• Q.: In your assessment, were all the men in your shift equally well trained? (5) • A.: I believe they were. • Q.: During the distribution of men within a shift, did you keep some kind of a record from which it was evident who worked when? • A.: At the beginning of every shift, we had a distribution. We had a school blackboard, and [redacted] would simply write down all the activities (10)on that blackboard. But it was not kept as a permanent record. It would disappear at the end of the shift. • Q.: So there are no written documents about it? • A.: There is nothing in writing about that, but it is well known, how the men worked. (15) • Q.: During your work, would some devices fail occasionally? • A.: There were such situations. • Q.: Or perhaps it could be broken?
• A.: Breakage is not a term that can be used for a fault in such
devices.
• Q.: But you didn't have any rules about that either?
• A.: Rules existed. I can tell them. I can tell you about them, if
you wish.
(5)The first rule was that we had to abide by the instructions for
the handling of such equipment, and if we act in that way, there can be no
surprises.
Secondly, if a fault occurs which the operator is not able to deal
with, it is sent for repair, it is reported to the command, the commander
(10)sends a replacement. (20) • A.: We all started the war or, rather, we joined the army as regular soldiers, and, in fact, for a long period of time we didn't even have ranks or titles. We just had certain people for certain levels of responsibility.
• Q.: But we're talking about the period of 1995. That is not the
(25)beginning of the war. It was the fourth or third year of the war. At
• A.: At that time, this was considered a position that should be part (5)of the military hierarchy, with adequate support. • Q.: Does that mean that as [redacted], you had certain rights and duties stipulated by certain military rules? • A.: All rights and duties are well known in the army. Naturally, people who are higher in the chain of command than others have greater (10)rights and duties in proportion to the position they hold.
• Q.: Let us now focus on the position of a
[redacted] in 1995. Let
us leave aside these general stipulations. (15) • A.: I am not aware that there were any such official written rules or regulations, but there was the rules of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina which we abided by. • Q.: Are you aware that in the rules of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina such a position of [redacted] was envisaged? (20) • A.: Those rules are lengthy, and I really can't remember. I'm not even sure I had enough time to read through the whole rules. • Q.: In your previous answer, you told us you abided by those rules. Did you abide by them according to some general knowledge that you had?
• A.: A part to the rules of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was studied
(25)at the course we attended regarding salute in the army, for instance, and
• Q.: When you say "at the course," are you referring to the course you attended in 1994? • A.: Precisely so. (5) • Q.: Your rights as [redacted] and duties, can you tell me, on the basis of what did you determine the scope of your rights and duties? • A.: Our duty was to monitor enemy radio relay communications in the zone in which -- the zone determined by the command.
• Q.: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm talking about your rights as
• A.: The command,
[redacted] (20) • A.: I don't know which documents you're referring to. • Q.: I'm referring to the notebooks, the exhibits that are in front of you. • A.: We received the notebooks when we took over the shift from the commander of the unit. (25)
• Q.: On that occasion, did you make any record on the takeover of the
• A.: The notebooks were previously registered in the command, and we didn't have many notebooks with us so that we didn't make any records as the register of the notebooks was kept in the command. (5) • Q.: You said that the notebooks were previously registered in the command. • A.: Yes. • Q.: What did that registration consist of? How were you aware of that? (10) • A.: On every notebook given to us, a number was indicated, the registration number, and the date when the notebook was registered in the command. • Q.: Was there a stamp on those notebooks, a seal, or some other marking? (15) • A.: I do not remember any other markings. I just know that there was the number and the date. • Q.: Were the pages of the notebooks numbered? • A.: I don't remember that particular detail. I think sometimes there were such notebooks, but I don't know whether all of them had numbers. (20)Everything depended on the scope of activities which would abbreviate the normal procedure. • Q.: When you say "the scope of activities," you are referring to the number of intercepted conversations, mostly?
• A.: The volume of enemy communications depended on the activities of
(25)the enemy or on the activities of our army. As a result, the volume of
• Q.: If I understand you correctly, due to the volume of activities, some of these, let me call them administrative activities, would be pushed into the background; is that correct? (5) • A.: There was no administration in the strict sense of the word. The main thing was to make sure that our basic activities were conducted in a proper manner. • Q.: But that also depended on the volume of enemy activities, as you just said; is that correct? (10) • A.: The work we did had to be done in a high-quality manner. If the volume of activities were greater, we worked more and we engaged men from another shift. • Q.: The volume of enemy activities, would that have some influence on whether the pages were numbered or not? (15) • A.: I really can't judge about that. • Q.: Can you tell me how intensive radio communications were in July 1995? • A.: It wasn't particularly intensive.
• Q.: Thank you.
[redacted]
• A.:
[redacted]
• Q.: My question was: [redacted]
• A.:
[redacted] • Q.: A soldier sending out messages and the soldier that typed out the messages, was this one and the same person or were these two different people? • A.: The soldier typing out the messages, that is to say, having (10)communication with the command, would be an individual which would come under KZ procedure, crypto-protection procedure, and would enjoy special treatment. And sometimes on certain occasions, because we might have some organisational difficulties, he would help somebody else in doing what they were doing. But this was very rare. (15)So for the most part, I can say that the soldiers would send the KZ soldier their written texts, and the KZ soldier would then forward this to the command. • Q.: The soldier working under KZ procedure, was he in your group or somewhere else? (20) • A.: No, he was [redacted] for discipline, in disciplinary matters, but as I say, he would perform his duty without any special training.
• Q.: When you would hand the conversation you had listened in to to the
soldier working on the crypto-protection procedure, KZ procedure, did you
(25)have any way of checking that the document had been transmitted further?
• Q.: I should like to return to a question that I asked a moment ago. (5)When you say there weren't many communication conversations, how many conversations would there be in a shift? • A.: Well, we didn't have any statistics on this, on the monitoring, but that was just a feeling, when things were busier and when they were less busy. (10) • Q.: When you filled out -- completed a notebook, who took it over? Who took over the notebook? • A.: The soldier who transcribed the conversation from the tape recorder into the notebook would then give the notebook to the KZ soldier, who would then introduce that information into a computer and transmit it (15)to the command. • Q.: How long does this operation last, in your assessment? • A.: This whole operation lasts for as long as is needed for that kind of information to be taken down from the tape recorder, introduced into the computer, and the rooms were next door. The operator's and the (20)KZ solder's office or room were next door to each other. • Q.: When questioned, you said that there were not many notebooks. Can you tell us what you mean by "not many"? Could you be specific; give us a number, perhaps?
• A.: Well, I can't give you a number because a lot of time has passed
(25)since then for me to be able to recall details like that. We were given
• Q.: When you would hand over shift, who would take possession of the (5)notebooks? • A.: The note -- we received the notebooks from the unit leader, commanding officer, and then those completed notebooks would be replaced with new ones, and he would take away the filled-in notebooks and supply us with new ones. (10) • Q.: And there were no written documents on this exchange of notebooks? • A.: No, there were no records, no minutes. • Q.: During your examination-in-chief and your testimony, you said that you monitored relay communications. • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: And you also said that they were usually -- this was done with the RRU800 and the RRU1 devices. • A.: That's correct. • Q.: And you were able to monitor this with different equipment, different devices. (20) • A.: Yes. We had two sets of equipment, two sets, and more sets if we needed them. It was standard practice to have two sets. This meant a device to monitor the RRU800 and the RRU1. • Q.: Can you tell us what communications you heard better, the RRU800 or the RRU1? Which were better audible, more audible? (25)
• A.: Well, this was not determined specifically on the basis of one or
• Q.: Do you know the difference between the two devices, the RRU800 and (5)the RRU1? • A.: Well, in principle, yes, I am familiar with the difference. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] I should like to ask the usher now to show the witness Exhibit 284. • Q.: Exhibit 284 is a notebook, one of the notebooks that you had (10)occasion to use. Was the notebook marked by the command in the way that you described earlier on? • A.: Yes. This notebook does have the markings of the command as I described them. • Q.: On this notebook, on page 1 -- that is to say, page 2, it has the (15)date of commencement; is that correct? • A.: On page 1 is the date when the notebook was put to use. • Q.: Let us make this a little clearer. So the date means the date of the commencement of the first monitored conversation? • A.: More or less, yes. The first date is the first conversation in (20)the notebook. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] I should like to ask the usher to show the witness Exhibit 282 now, please.
• Q.: May we take it that Exhibit 282 does not have any mark to show the
beginning of work, or, rather, the beginning of the first intercepted
(25)conversation?
(5) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: Witness X, let me ask you a question which relates to -- that is to say, a general question regarding these notebooks. The notebooks shown to you by the Prosecution were in your possession, that is to say, in the possession of your shift during your (10)work in July 1995; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that is correct. • Q.: Some of the notebooks, and this was taken note of previously, have numbers -- their pages are numbered; others do not have numbered pages. Is that correct? (15) • A.: Well, I didn't pay attention to details of that kind. I really didn't. • Q.: In some notebooks the date of the first conversation is not stated; is that correct? • A.: Yes, we've seen that. (20) • Q.: Tell me now, please, did you ever record the day of the last conversation in the notebook?
• A.: Well, on occasion I might have put a date. I think that a date
should have been recorded, but there was always a date in the computer.
So as soon as I received the report, automatically the date goes into the
(25)computer. So there wasn't any need for me to write down the date, but
• Q.: Can you tell me, looking at exhibit -- that is to say, the exhibits shown to you by the Prosecutor, 320 and 321, those exhibits and the other conversations that you were shown today, can you tell me whether (5)you are able to determine the exact date when they were intercepted? • A.: The exact date that you are asking for could be within the frameworks of the date when the notebook was opened and when it was archived, and an assessment of the date itself is a matter of time; that is to say, when the conversation took place and the conversations would (10)follow each other in order, one by one. So you could look at the times of the conversations, when they started, and then you would be able to arrive at the date. • Q.: Let me ask you a logical question with respect to Exhibit 282. It doesn't state the beginning or the end. There is no date either at the (15)beginning, that is to say, when the first conversation was intercepted, and on the last page there is no date either when it was filed and sent to the archives. • A.: Well, I don't really understand what you're referring to. I don't know what Exhibit 282 refers to. (20) • Q.: Well, I'll show you the exhibit. It is in tab ... it is notebook 40 or 27. All those numbers are written up on it, and it is Prosecution Exhibit 282. That is how it is referred to in the courtroom. Can you tell me something about that particular notebook? The date of the first intercepted conversation, please. (25)
• A.: The date of the first conversation could only be a date after the
• Q.: When you received the notebooks, took over the notebooks
[redacted] (5) • A.: It is difficult to go back in time to that period, but what I can tell you is that most of the notebooks did have that, yes. • Q.: Did you check that yourself? Are you sure of that, or do you leave room for -- • A.: The notebooks were protected in a way. So new notebooks, old (10)notebooks, it was the KZ soldiers who had it, and these soldiers were particularly selected. They were trusted people. And as this is a small number of notebooks. I do believe that most of them had a registration in the command. • Q.: Could you tell me something about (15)Exhibit 282? When do you think the last conversation took place that was recorded in that notebook? • A.: I really can't remember the contents of that notebook. However, if the date when the notebook was filed and sent to the archives, then the last conversation was before that archive date. (20) • Q.: Can you look at the exhibit and tell us if there is an archive date? • A.: I did not see that date. • Q.: Thank you. The conversations you intercepted were recorded on the Uher tape recorders, were they not? (25)
• A.: All monitored conversations that were of interest were taped on
• Q.: Later on, would you hand over the tapes that you recorded? • A.: The tapes were not usually handed on further, transmitted further. There were times when the tapes were sent to the command to be (5)listened to again, but during that particular period of time, probably because we didn't have the necessary material and technical equipment, the tapes from that shift were wiped clean if we failed to get any reserve tapes. So part of the tapes went to the command for the information to be checked out and for the tapes to be listened to again, but it depended. (10) • Q.: Who decided whether the tapes would be wiped out and retaped, reused? • A.: The decision came of its own accord. If you didn't have any more tapes to tape the conversations, then you had to use the ones you had again. (15) • Q.: [redacted] • A.: I usually asked for new tapes to be sent, and sometimes I would get a new tape, other times I would not. I also had a superior officer in my shift who would take care of matters like that. • Q.: During the time span of the matters we're dealing with, and during (20)your testimony, you said on one occasion that you paid particular attention to the route that -- just one moment, please -- the route that the members of the BiH army were to leave the Srebrenica area; is that correct?
• A.: I felt a human responsibility for these people that were
(25)withdrawing, and that is why I wanted to do what we were doing in the
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no further questions of this witness. Thank you. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Visnjic. Mr. Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further questions for the witness. Thank you. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. Judge Fouad Riad. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. I have one simple question for you; perhaps not simple. (15) • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned, during your answer to the Prosecutor, that Popovic had left a message for General Krstic, telling him that, and I quote you, "We have not finished the job, we are here." My question is: Could you detect approximately where the message would be coming from? (20)When he says, "We are here," could you detect where that is?
• A.: Your Honour, my department duty was to forward information to the
department for the processing of information through an encrypted -- to
assist them in encryption that we had in the unit. For some links, it is
possible, technically, to identify the route or the direction for some of
(25)the connections that we surveyed. For others, unfortunately, it is
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness X. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad Riad. (5)Judge Wald. JUDGE WALD: Witness X, you told us in the beginning that part of your duties as you're listening to the conversations on the radio, that if you found one that was -- I think you used the word -- interesting, you would then manually put it on the tape, transcribe it on the tape. (10)Did you have any briefings, or who told you, in essence, what would be an "interesting" conversation and what would not, since so many of the conversations appear to be in some kind of code? I mean people are using code words all the time. What was your source of information as to the type of conversations that would be "interesting"? (15)
• A.: We monitored the enemy radio relay communications and the
conversations mainly of military officers, leading officers, using those
communications. There was no official coding of those conversations, as a
rule. These were open-line communications when people simply used
different words for what they meant. They wouldn't use the name. They
(20)would say "the chief," or something like that.
As for the coded communications, they were monitored in a
different manner, and they were not transmitted, but they were not the
object of our monitoring. They were teleprinter connections and so on.
As to how we judged whether a conversation was interesting, the
(25)importance of the conversation is something that we were taught at the
JUDGE WALD: During the period that we're talking about, roughly July of 1995, when you, I believe, said that the radio communications were not particularly intensive -- I think you said that -- could you give me a (10)rough estimate, very rough, of, in your own experience, how many of the conversations that you heard would be transcribed; just like a few, many, or almost all? In other words, of all the conversations that came over on the tape, how many you would punch the manual lever and have transcribed. A majority, a few, or almost all? (15) • A.: In my judgement, most of the conversations that were listened in to, precisely because of the poorer intensity of communications, were transcribed because that was all we had to offer the command as information. But when I say "low-intensity communication", I wanted to say that (20)in some situations, both shifts would be working who could hardly manage to transcribe all the conversations throughout their working hours.
JUDGE WALD: Okay, thank you. I have one last question.
Take, for example, Exhibit 324, which is a conversation that you
identified between Colonel Cerovic and Vinko. I don't know if you have
(25)that in front of you. It's 324. I'm only interested in the procedures
• A.: I have already said that we had a department for the processing of
information, and we could only suggest to that department that an
(20)individual whose voice we had heard, we couldn't put a note saying that we
had identified him.
But the report here shows that this is the third channel of the
radio relay device, which means that it was rated very high. We see that
the speakers have high ranks in the army. What could happen, and what
(25)happened very often, was for us not to start transcribing the conversation
JUDGE WALD: So your assumption on something like this is when you sent it up, the transcribed version, when you sent it up to your command forces, that they would be able to figure out who Vinko was? (15) • A.: In this situation such as we have here, that is not a problem, not even for the soldier who received or captured the message. But it is the command who did all that. JUDGE WALD: It's not a problem for me either. I just wondered what the procedure was. Thank you. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you very much, Judge
Wald.
Could the usher go to the witness. I would need his assistance.
Mr. Usher, could you show the witness Exhibit 279, page 3. It is tab 1.
So the third page of the document and page 1 of the notebook.
(25)Witness X, you have this code of registration in the command,
• A.: The date is the date on which the notebook was registered in the (5)command on the 23rd of June, 1995. So as this report doesn't have a date, it was compiled after the date when the notebook was registered in the command. The first report has the time when it was compiled and the frequency from which the conversation was captured. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What does "Strogo Pov" mean? (10)"08/2/01/443", what does that mean? • A.: I only know about the Strogo Pov. It is the level of confidentiality of the document. It means it is not accessible to anyone except to people within our unit, in my opinion, and those superior to us. (15)As for the other numbers, except for the date, I don't know what they signify. They are numbers from the command. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let me put the question in a different manner. The notebooks, were they numbered according to any kind of (20)sequence or order? • A.: I believe they were, though I didn't pay any particular attention to that.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Another question.
[redacted] (25)
• A.:
[redacted]
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you remember what age they (5)were, more or less?
• A.: They were mostly --
[redacted]
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
[redacted] (10)
• A.:
[redacted]
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Fine.
[redacted]
• A.:
[redacted]
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
[redacted]
• A.:
[redacted] (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. I think that we have
no more questions for you. You have helped us to understand these
procedures a little better. So we wish to thank you very much for coming
here, and we wish you a safe journey to your country and success in your
work.
(25)Please don't move, because we have some little things to deal with
(5)
MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. We are in exactly the same
position as we were yesterday in respect to these exhibits. Excuse me,
Your Honour. MR. CAYLEY: My learned friend Mr. Harmon has pointed out (10)to me that at this stage he would like those exhibits identified which should remain under seal because they have signatures, and I can do that because I actually noted on these exhibits the ones that should not be shown on the ELMO. 319 should remain under seal when it's admitted into evidence. That has the witness' signature upon the B/C/S version. (15)Exhibit 320 has no visible signature on it. Exhibit 321 should remain under seal in the B/C/S version because that has a signature upon it. Exhibit 322 has no visible signature, so it can remain a public document. Exhibit 323, again, has no signature on it so it can remain a public document, and I think the same is true for Exhibit 324. No, I'm sorry. (20)That has a signature on it. Exhibit 324 should remain under seal in the B/C/S version, and also 325 because that has a name upon it which could identify somebody involved in the process. So that should also remain under seal.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you very much,
(25)Mr. Cayley.
(5) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, sometime at the beginning of next week we will be able to take a position on some documents except for the last batch. We are having some difficulty with the translation. I can tell you that that is the greatest problem we're having, regarding the precision of translations. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So, Madam Registrar, please take note of these indications so that we can make a ruling. So I think the time has come for a break now. Witness X, please don't move; stay in your seat. We're going to have a half-hour break now. (15) --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I see that it's Mr. McCloskey whose going to speak on behalf of the Prosecution.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Good afternoon. Good
(20)afternoon, everyone. I'm sorry I have not been in the Court. I've been
preparing for next week's presentation so we can make it as efficient as
possible.
On that same subject, Defence counsel and the Prosecution team
have been discussing an issue regarding the witness who would be
(25)Mr. Richard Butler, the intelligence analyst who would be discussing the
(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps before making the solemn declaration the blinds should be raised. Witness, please sit down for a moment. Witness, please stand up now and read the solemn declaration given to you by the usher. (10) THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated.
WITNESS: WITNESS Y (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Are you comfortable? THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You're going to look at this piece of paper with your name written on it, and tell us, please, yes or no whether that is your name. (20) THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So now you're going to answer questions put to you by Mr. Cayley, who is on your right. Thank you very much. Mr. Cayley, your witness. You may begin. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
• Q.: Witness, you heard some discussion as you were coming in about closed session. Just to reassure you, the visual image of you is distorted and you will be known by a pseudonym. So the public are not (5)aware of your identity; you're safe. MR. CAYLEY: Madam Registrar, what is the pseudonym for this witness? THE REGISTRAR: Pseudonym "Y". MR. CAYLEY: (10) • Q.: Witness Y, what is your nationality? • A.: My nationality is Muslim. • Q.: You come from Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct? • A.: Yes. I'm a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina. • Q.: Could you just give the Judges a very brief summary of your (15)educational background? • A.: I graduated from secondary school. I have secondary education. • Q.: How old were you when you graduated from secondary school? • A.: I was 18 years old. • Q.: Now, you carried out your military service in the JNA in 1998. (20)I'm sorry. Correction, in 1988. Can you explain to Their Honours what your specialisation was within the JNA?
• A.: I joined the JNA to do my military service of one year in 1988 in
the Yugoslav People's Army. I was in the signals branch. I worked as an
operator on communications equipment for a time. After completing
(25)training that was envisaged for all conscripts, all soldiers, I worked on
• Q.: And what was your precise responsibility within the armoured brigade at Pristina? • A.: In the armoured brigade in Pristina, after serving for six months, (5)I was a squad leader on armoured communications vehicles. These are vehicles intended for the command. • Q.: You've already said that you had a signals background in the JNA. Were you responsible for the communications equipment within those communications vehicles? (10) • A.: Yes, I was responsible for communications equipment. We mostly trained ourselves, because these were Russian-made communications equipment, on the basis of textbooks. We had textbooks to study. • Q.: Prior to joining the JNA did you have an interest in radio communications? (15) • A.: Yes. Before I went to do my military service, I was a radio amateur, ever since 1984. I passed a radio amateur classification test for Category C, and I had used communications equipment before, and it was the reason why I was deployed in that branch of the army. (20) • Q.: And the Category C licence is an internationally recognised radio licence, is it not? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: I want to move forward now to July of 1992. I think at this time
you joined a particular unit of the Bosnian army. Could you tell Their
(25)Honours what unit that was?
• Q.: Now, I know that that unit was based in a number of different places, but where was the eventual location of that particular unit? What (5)was the name of the place where it was ultimately based? • A.: We were first near my town for a while and then we moved to Okresanica, and we had another section in Konjuh. • Q.: I want to concentrate on Okresanica first. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit (10)138, please. • Q.: While we're waiting for that exhibit, to whom was the unit at Okresanica answerable to? Who was your superior command? • A.: The company commander was in the headquarters of the 2nd Corps. So they were responsible. We at Okresanica were accountable to the (15)company commander, and he was situated in the corps command. • Q.: And that was the 2nd Corps of the Bosnian army based in Tuzla? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you just point to the Judges the location Okresanica where you were based? (20) • A.: [Indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show the witness has identified Okresanica on Prosecutor's Exhibit 138 as his location, and also the second location, Konjuh, that we'll come to in a moment, as another place where he himself was based. (25)
• Q.: Now, Witness, very briefly because the Judges have heard this
• A.: At Okresanica, which is a high hill, a high mountain, and we were
(5)located there in order to be able to monitor communications, specifically
radio relay communications. We had a working premises in which the
devices were set up.
The procedure was that at every work post there was a tape
recorder -- it was usually an Uher in terms of make -- then two devices
(10)for each work post, two devices. I usually also had an ordinary piece of
paper in front of me.
The device already had memorised frequencies that we were
monitoring, the channels, so that I would switch on the device and it
would search, do the searching. When a conversation was detected, we
(15)would stop the scanning process and we would switch on the tape recorder
for recording.
On the piece of paper, I would usually note down the time, the
frequency, and if I knew the participants, then also the participants. If
I did not know who the participants in the conversation were, then a part
(20)of the conversation that would be indicative and the number shown on the
tape recorder to indicate which part of the tape the conversation was
recorded on, and at the end of the conversation, we would usually let the
device scan those same frequencies because the conversation may, in the
meantime, appear on a different channel.
(25)What happened often is that we would record several conversations
MR. CAYLEY: If the usher could take Exhibits 298 and 299. I just (15)have a couple of questions to clarify what you've just stated. • Q.: Whose conversations were you recording? Who were you listening to? • A.: We call them enemy communications. It was the enemy side, the opposing side. These were usually communications between the brigades and (20)the corps and between the corps and the General Staff. • Q.: Which army are you referring to? • A.: The army of Republika Srpska.
• Q.: Now, when you listened to the tape, the recording of the
conversation, if you had a problem in understanding a particular word,
(25)what would you do?
(10) • Q.: Were you always able to identify the participants in conversations? • A.: Not always. But after monitoring for some time, we already recognised the voices of quite a number of them. • Q.: What were the principal manners in which you did identify the (15)speakers in conversations? • A.: Each one of us has a different tone of voice, and some have quite specific ways of speech. Some also had telephones that had very strong microphones, so they would distort the voice, and so those telephone lines could be distinguished from others, so we knew which telephone was being (20)used. • Q.: And am I right in saying that on a number of occasions, participants actually introduced themselves within the conversation, they gave their name?
• A.: Yes. When contacting the exchanges, the telephone exchanges that
(25)they used, they would often introduce themselves, yes.
• A.: Yes. That is a Kenwood short-wave receiver, short waves. And this is an Icon R100, an ultra-high-frequency device. (5) • Q.: And so in that particular exhibit, 298, there is a short-wave receiver on the left-hand side of the photograph and an ultra-high-frequency receiver on the right-hand side of the photograph; is that correct? • A.: Yes, yes, that is correct. (10) MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 299. • Q.: Is this an example of the tape recorder, the Uher tape recorder that you used at both Okresanica and Konjuh? • A.: Yes, yes, it is a tape recorder. A Uher -- of German manufacture. (15) • Q.: And this tape recorder was simply connected by cable to the receivers? • A.: Yes, yes. It was possible to connect them to headphones. There were connections behind the receiver, and these were connected to the tape recorder, the Uher. (20) • Q.: Now, very briefly, if you could explain to Their Honours, how many days of work did you do and how many days' rest did you take? Was there a shift procedure for your work?
• A.: Yes. We worked depending on the situation. I worked in several
places sometimes seven days, ten days, or fourteen days. It all depended
(25)on the situation, how much fuel we had, because for a time we were
• Q.: Within each shift, whether it was seven or ten or fourteen days, (5)for how many hours did you work every day? • A.: Every day, a minimum of eight hours; sometimes for longer. Sometimes I would work for 12 or even 16 hours. Our service worked round the clock, 24 hours a day. • Q.: At the beginning of every seven, ten, or fourteen-day shift, was (10)there a briefing from the commander of the previous shift to your shift? • A.: During the change of shifts, the company commander would address us, and he would brief us briefly as to what had happened in the previous shift, or the platoon commander; it depended. Sometimes it was the platoon commander who was the shift leader. And they would brief us on (15)the most important developments in the previous seven or ten or fourteen days. • Q.: And within the shifts themselves, within, you know, your seven- or eight-hour duty, after you took your rest and went back to doing your work, did the intercept operator brief you on anything of importance that (20)had taken place during his shift? • A.: When I came on duty, the operator who was working until then would inform the colleague replacing him on which channels there were any activities and what kind of activities, usually.
• Q.: Now, I think in May of 1994, you transferred to Konjuh. Is that
(25)right?
• Q.: And you've already shown the location of that place to the Judges on the map that was shown to you; is that correct? • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Were the procedures at Konjuh and Okresanica very similar, identical? • A.: Yes, yes. The procedure was, to all intents and purposes, the same. • Q.: At Konjuh, could you explain to Their Honours broadly the (10)geographical area that you covered, that you monitored from your location? • A.: Mount Konjuh is a dominant mountain in the area. It is a high mountain in that area of Bosnia. And we covered part of the zone to the left of Zvornik. That is to say, Zvornik was on the left, and on the right was Sarajevo, Eastern Bosnia. We also covered the Ozren area, the (15)Mount Ozren area. • Q.: Now, you stated earlier in your evidence that you were concerned with monitoring the Bosnian Serb army. Which units or which principal unit of the Bosnian Serb army were you monitoring within this area in Eastern Bosnia? (20) • A.: We were focusing on the Drina Corps, and in the vicinity was the General Staff of the army of Republika Srpska; Han Pijesak, to be more specific. • Q.: In monitoring the Drina Corps, you were also concerned with the subordinate brigades of that corps? (25)
• A.: Yes, that's right. Communications were down towards the corps,
• Q.: Now, previously you have been shown by me the notebooks -- a number of notebooks from Konjuh, and you've identified those notebooks. I would like us to now go through that process in the courtroom. (5) MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have the original notebooks, as my learned friend Mr. Harmon did in respect of the first witness on this subject matter. I don't intend to offer these into evidence because they are still part of ongoing investigations. We have made copies. But the witness has only looked at these. He's not actually seen the copies, (10)because when I spoke to him, the copies were not ready. So without wishing to create any confusion, I'd like to show him these documents and then essentially offer the copy as an exhibit to the Court, subject to the limitations that the Court has already placed on those exhibits. And I can undertake to the Court that those exhibits are (15)an accurate photocopy of these books. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Mr. Petrusic, do you agree? Do you accept this procedure? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President, I do. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. (20)Mr. Cayley, you may continue. MR. CAYLEY: And I would simply add, Mr. President, if the Defence wish to inspect any of these books, they're welcome to do so. So if I could first of all give you that one, Mr. Usher.
• Q.: Witness, could you inspect that book that I've provided to you.
(25)Do you recognise that book?
• Q.: Could you just look through it and check that you're absolutely certain that it is a book that you recognise? • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Is this a book from Konjuh? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: And this is Prosecutor's Exhibit 293. How do you know it's a book from Konjuh? • A.: There are parts here which I took down from the equipment. It is (10)my own handwriting. It has a date, the date of the first conversation that was recorded into the notebook, and at that time I was at Konjuh myself. So I was serving during that period at Konjuh. • Q.: And what is the date of the first conversation in that booklet, if you can see it? (15) • A.: The date of the first conversation is the 1st of July, 1995. MR. CAYLEY: And for the purposes of the record, the witness is looking at Prosecutor's Exhibit 293, and that date is to be found on 00801875. (20)Mr. Usher, if that book could be returned to me. I'll move to the next book. • Q.: Witness, if you could inspect that book in front of you. This is Prosecutor's Exhibit 286. That is the copy is Prosecutor's Exhibit 286. • A.: Yes. This is a notebook from Konjuh as well. (25)
• Q.: Can you explain to Their Honours why it is a notebook from Konjuh,
• A.: I recognise this notebook because of my handwriting, and it is the period from the 29th of July -- June, I'm sorry, the 29th of June, 1995, which is when I worked on Konjuh. And there are the participants here (5)that are mentioned, and we monitored this tape from Konjuh alone. MR. CAYLEY: And the date that the witness is referring to, 29 June 1995, is found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 286 at page 00800823. And, Mr. Usher, if we could move to the next exhibit. • Q.: If you could inspect that book, Witness. Witness, do you (10)recognise this book? • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: I think if you go to the fifth page of this booklet you'll find a date. The sixth page. • A.: Yes, I found the date. (15) • Q.: What is the date that you see? • A.: The 21st of July, 1995. • Q.: And were you working -- MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I apologise, but I don't see the number of the exhibit, not in the transcript. Perhaps (20)Mr. Cayley did mention it, but I can't see it in the LiveNote. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, I think you're right, Mr. Visnjic. I think Mr. Cayley is going to tell us the exhibit that corresponds to -- the exhibit number corresponding to this notebook.
MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. It's Prosecutor's
(25)Exhibit 289.
MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: You were working at Konjuh during that period? (5) • A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: If we could move to the next exhibit. The Prosecutor's Exhibit -- the copy, is Exhibit 291. • A.: Yes, I recognise the notebook. MR. CAYLEY: (10) • Q.: Is this a notebook from Konjuh? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is the first date that you can see, the first dated conversation that you can see in this book? • A.: The first dated conversation is the 13th of June, 1995. (15) MR. CAYLEY: And that can be found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 291 at 00801668. And if we could move to the next exhibit. • Q.: Witness, do you recognise this booklet? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I apologise, Mr. Cayley, but I (20)think -- what is the Exhibit number now? MR. CAYLEY: Prosecutor's Exhibit 281, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Witness, do you recognise this particular booklet? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: This booklet is from Konjuh. • Q.: How do you recognise it? • A.: I recognise my own handwriting, the dates -- the date, and that is (5)the date when I worked on Konjuh. • Q.: What is the first dated conversation that you can find in this booklet? • A.: The 21st of June, 1995.
MR. CAYLEY: And that, for the purposes of the record, can be
(10)found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 281 at page 00780291.
And the last one is Prosecutor's
Exhibit 292. That is the copy. • Q.: I'm sorry, Witness. Could you look at that particular document? Do you recognise that document? • A.: Yes, I recognise it.
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, one moment. I'm sorry. MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Witness, could you just show me the front cover of that document? Yes. There's some confusion.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Cayley, perhaps I can be of
(25)assistance and give you a break until tomorrow.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: You are doing a very good job but ... MR. CAYLEY: To reassure the Court, there's very little left of the examination-in-chief. There's, in fact, only two specific intercepts that that witness will introduce. So I anticipate about 10 or 15 minutes, particularly if I get my papers in order for tomorrow. I apologise to the (15)Court for the disorder at the end. JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of June, 2000 (20)at 9.30 a.m. |
