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/ Colormap • Page 4503 • {1/91} (1)Friday, 23 June 2000 [Closed session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good afternoon, (5)Witness. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated for the moment, please. Please sit down. THE WITNESS: Thank you. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness, please stand up. I think you need to use the other microphone because -- there is facial distortion, voice distortion? MR. HARMON: No. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No. So you're going to read the (15)solemn declaration that the usher is going to give you, please. THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS BB (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated. THE WITNESS: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Are you comfortable, Witness. THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You're going to look at this
(25)piece of paper and tell us, yes or no, is your name written on it?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Let's see. Don't tell us your name, please. One moment. And now? (5) THE WITNESS: Yes, that is my name. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So finally. It is only a mere formality, but we have to do it. So you're now going to answer questions by Mr. Harmon is going to put to you, please. (10)You have the floor, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Witness, I'm going to be referring to you as Witness BB. Good afternoon, Witness BB. (15) • A.: Good afternoon. • Q.: Can you tell us your nationality, please? • A.: I'm of Bosniak nationality. • Q.: And what is your religious faith? • A.: Islam is my faith. (20) • Q.: Can you tell us your educational background starting, please, first with your secondary school education? • A.: My education was actually an occupation of the technician for telecommunications, and I graduated from the corresponding secondary school for such a profile. (25)
• Q.: Could you tell us, please, the nature of the coursework. What was
• A.: In connection with radio communications, I had a subject called "Radio and Radio-Relay Devices"; then there was another subject or course (5)called "Multiplex Systems"; then a course in telegraphy; and subjects in which you study the work of telephone exchanges. • Q.: Did you graduate in 1984 with a degree in electronic telecommunications? • A.: I did. (10) • Q.: Did you go on to university? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you study two years at university the subject matter of electrotechnics? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Did you serve in the JNA? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did any of your service in the JNA in 1984 and 1985 have to do with telecommunications, or was it unrelated? • A.: I did something that was unrelated to this. (20) • Q.: Now, Witness BB, could you tell us about your private interest in radios? Did you have such an interest, and how did you pursue that interest?
• A.: I developed an interest in radio early on, in elementary school,
and that is why I decided to enrol in a telecommunications secondary
(25)school. Continuously I was engaged as an amateur in electronics,
• Q.: Witness BB, did you maintain that interest in radios up to the time of the commencement of the war in Bosnia? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Let's focus our attention on the war in Bosnia and let me ask you, in October of 1992, did you join an anti-electronic warfare unit? • A.: I did. • Q.: Did you remain in that unit until the end of the war? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, while you were engaged in that kind of activity, were you stationed at various locations in eastern Bosnia? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you identify by name those locations, please? (15) • A.: I can. Konjuh, Okresanica, the 2nd Corps command, Par Selo, and some other locations. MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's Exhibit 138 placed on the ELMO, please. • Q.: While that's being placed on the ELMO, Witness BB, can you tell us (20)the time periods when you were stationed at Okresanica? • A.: I was at Okresanica on several occasions. For the last time I arrived in May 1995, and I stayed until the end of the war.
• Q.: Now, to your left, Witness BB, is a map. Could you just point
out, please, the locations where you were stationed, starting with
(25)Okresanica, please, and then point to the location of Konjuh where you
• A.: This is Okresanica; this is Konjuh. • Q.: Thank you very much. MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness has pointed first to the (5)green dot on the left-hand side of Prosecutor's Exhibit 138 with the word "Okresanica" next to it, and he next pointed to the green dot below it that has "Konjuh" written alongside it. • Q.: Witness BB, when you were at Okresanica and Konjuh, whose communications were you intercepting? (10) • A.: I was intercepting the communications of the army of Republika Srpska. • Q.: Let's narrow down the focus of this examination a little more. You said you were at Okresanica from May 1995 onward, and I'd like to focus on that period of time, particularly the period of time in July of (15)1995. First of all, what were your duties during that time period at Okresanica? • A.: I had two duties; first I worked as an operator and after that I switched to work as an operator on encryption, as a signalsman. (20) • Q.: As an operator, briefly what did you do?
• A.: We monitored certain frequencies coming from certain directions.
When we would identify a conversation on that frequency, we would switch
on the recording of that conversation, and after that, when the
conversation ended, we would rewind the conversation, listen to it, take
(25)it down in a notebook and hand it over to the signalsman operator.
(5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now let's focus on your role as the person who would encrypt these messages from the notebooks and forward them on to your higher command, because that's the position you also held, isn't it? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: As I understand the procedure, and as the Judges have heard from other witnesses, a notebook would be given to the person whose obligation it was to type exactly the contents from the notebook onto the monitor. Is that specifically what the obligation was and what you did? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: As an individual who did this encryption and typing work, was there ever an occasion when you had to relisten to a tape, or you requested that the intercept operator who had presented you with the notebook relisten to the tape? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: When did that happen and under what circumstances did that happen?
• A.: If I would note any irregularities in the text I received,
anything that was not logical, I would ask the operator who transcribed it
to explain it to me, and what would most often happen would be that the
(25)tape would be relistened to.
• A.: The operator who originally took it down or another operator, but most frequently several persons. Sometimes I was one of them. • Q.: And if there were changes that were made or heard on a (5)relistening, how would those be communicated to you as the person who had to forward the message on to the higher command? • A.: I would enter the changes into the monitor. I would type in those changes which had been identified and then encode it and send it to the higher command. (10) • Q.: Would the changes then be noted back in the notebook that may have had something that needed to be changed? • A.: If only a name was involved, a very short and clear piece of information, in most cases this was not changed in the notebook. • Q.: Now, let me ask you, again focusing on your position as the person (15)who encrypted and transmitted these messages, when you received a notebook, Witness BB, from an intercept operator, it was customary, was it not, for the intercept operator, at the end of the transmission that had been copied into the notebook, to sign his initials or name? Isn't that (20)correct? • A.: In some cases the operator would sign, but there were cases when this was left out by omission.
• Q.: While you were the person who was doing the encrypting, was it
customary for you or the other person who was encrypting, after the
(25)message had been transmitted, to sign either your name or your initials in
• A.: Yes. I would place my signature in the notebook for the conversations that had been forwarded to the higher command. (5) MR. HARMON: Now, with the assistance of the usher, if I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 283 placed in front of the witness, and that is found at tab 5. Mr. Usher, if you could turn that -- if you could turn to -- THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. (10) MR. HARMON: If you could turn to page 00804765. • Q.: Witness BB, if you look at the bottom of page 765, you will see two initials and a name. I do not want to identify orally the name or the two initials, but am I correct, in referring to this particular handwritten notation in this notebook, that the two initials are the (15)initials of the intercept operator? Am I correct on that? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And am I correct that the name that appears under that is your name, reflecting the fact that you were the individual who typed this into the computer, encrypted this message, and sent it on to your forward (20)command? • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, if you could kindly turn to the last three digits in this same exhibit, 803.
• Q.: Let me ask you, Witness BB, is there a name at the bottom of that
(25)particular intercept, bottom of page 803?
• Q.: Does that name represent the name of the individual who transmitted this conversation? • A.: Yes. That is the name of the person who typed out, encrypted, and (5)forwarded this conversation to the higher command. • Q.: Now, do you know, Witness BB, if this procedure was the procedure that was followed all the time at Okresanica or was this introduced later in time? You testified earlier that you had been there on more than one occasion. (10) • A.: The last period of time that I spent there was a period when this procedure was respected. • Q.: Witness BB, I'm going to ask you now about a specific number of intercepted communications, and let me ask you first, did you have an opportunity to review various notebooks, copies of those notebooks, in my (15)office before coming to testify? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did I ask you to attempt to identify certain conversations as being the conversations that you personally intercepted and ask you to date those conversations? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Let me turn, first of all, if I could -- MR. HARMON: If the witness could have placed in front of him a series of exhibits. We'll start with Prosecutor's Exhibit 340.
• Q.: Witness BB, could you take a look at -- we won't put that on the
(25)ELMO. If you would just take a look at Prosecutor's Exhibit 340.
• Q.: Witness BB, do you recognise in Prosecutor's Exhibit 340 your own (5)handwriting? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Is this a communication that you personally intercepted? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you take a look at the corresponding notebook on page 787. (10)Is Prosecutor's Exhibit 340 identical to the intercepted communication that is found on page 787, the bottom left-hand side of 787? • A.: Yes, it is identical. • Q.: Now, did I ask you, Witness, to attempt to date this particular conversation? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Let me refer you to the notebook, Prosecutor's Exhibit 285. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you would turn to page -- the last three digits in the ERN number are 781. • Q.: Do you see a date in the upper left-hand corner on page 781? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is that date? • A.: The 12th of July, 1995. • Q.: Now, your conversation is then found at page 787.
MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, would you turn to page 800, the last three
(25)digits.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: What is that date? (5) • A.: The 13th of July, 1995. • Q.: Do you know who wrote that date? • A.: I wrote that date. • Q.: Your conversation appears somewhere between the date of the 12th and this date of the 13th. Are you therefore able to conclude when this (10)particular conversation found in Prosecutor's 340 was intercepted and recorded in the notebook? • A.: Yes. The 12th of the July, 1995. MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I will now read this particular intercept into the record, starting with: (15) • Q.: "785.000, Ch 5, 1156 hrs (Duty Officer at the Badem OC/Operation Centre/) X - Y (Zlatar /code-name/) (Barely audible)" Now, let me stop the reading here and just ask you a question, (20)Witness BB. Is the letter "Y," then, that's referenced in the remaining part of the text Zlatar? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Is "X" then Badem? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Do you know "Badem" and "Zlatar" to be code names for particular
• A.: Yes. • Q.: I will now continue my reading. (Y.:) Do you have ... regarding the link up (5)with your neighbour on the right. (X.:) Nothing has changed. It's all the same as it used to be. (Y.:) ... they are moving towards Konjevic Polje and (Kosat?) (10) (X.:) We have information. It's exactly like that. (Y.:) What action did you take, for God sake? (X.:) Listen, General Krstic is here ... ... I ... Duty Officer ... to order. (15) (Y.:) ... (X.:) It's been /?useless/ for three years and no one cared. Let me please put you through to General Krstic. He's up there in his office. Hello! (20)(Line disconnected)" Now, we've concluded with this particular exhibit, Witness.
MR. HARMON: Now if I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 341 placed
in front of the witness. Mr. Usher, if you would kindly take Prosecutor's
Exhibit 283, the binder; 283 is found at tab 5, and if you could open
(25)Prosecutor's Exhibit 283 to page 826 of the ERN number, the last three
• Q.: Witness BB, would you compare Prosecutor's Exhibit 341, which is an extract from the notebook, 283, and compare it with the entry that is found on page -- the last three digits being 826. Is the extract and the (5)conversation that's found in Prosecutor's 825 identical? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, is the handwriting that's found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 341 your handwriting? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: Does that mean that you were the person who intercepted this information that's reflected in this entry in the notebook? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, let me ask you this question: Did you also attempt to date this conversation for us? (15) • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, if you would kindly turn this -- in Prosecutor's Exhibit 283, if you go back to page 826. I apologise, Mr. Usher. 755. If you would go back to page 755. • Q.: Do you see a date on page 755 in this notebook? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is that date? • A.: The 2nd of July, 1995. MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, if you would go past the conversation and turn to page 836. (25)
• Q.: Do you see a date on 836 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 283?
• Q.: Is that at the top of the page? • A.: It is. • Q.: What is that date? (5) • A.: The 13th of July, 1995. • Q.: And in whose handwriting is that date? • A.: That's my handwriting. • Q.: Did I ask you last night, Witness, to analyse this notebook by comparing the times and attempting to date this specific conversation, and (10)were you able to do so? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Based on your analysis, what was the date that you concluded you intercepted this particular conversation, the conversation that's found on Prosecutor's Exhibit 341? (15) • A.: The 12th of July, 1995. • Q.: Let me now read this very brief entry into the record. I'm reading from Prosecutor's Exhibit 341: "785.000, Ch 1, 1210 hours. Krstic - Krsmanovic. (20)Krstic wants the buses to start moving right away." Witness BB, is this a transcript of the conversation or is this a summary of what was heard? Can you explain this particular intercepted communication? (25)
• A.: This is the summary of the conversation that was heard.
• A.: I couldn't tell you. I don't know. • Q.: Did you occasionally summarise an entry in notebooks when you had (5)intercepted something? • A.: Yes. • Q.: How was it that you were able to identify the speakers Krstic and Krsmanovic in respect of Prosecutor's Exhibit 341? • A.: By listening to the recording in which they introduced (10)themselves. So I was able to determine who the participants in the conversation were. However, probably this piece of information that has been recorded here, that is to say, the summary, is the only thing that sounded like some kind of information, and so on the basis of that, I wrote down this in summary form and did not transcribe the entire (15)conversation. • Q.: Witness BB, we'll turn to the next exhibit. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 342. MR. HARMON: That can be shown to the witness, and, Mr. Usher, if you would kindly turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 285, which is found at tab (20)7. • Q.: If I can direct your attention to page 790 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 285. Witness, can you please compare Prosecutor's Exhibit 342 with the notebook entry that is found at page 790 in Prosecutor's 285, and tell the Judges whether these are identical? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: It is. • Q.: Now, did I ask you to attempt to date to conversation as well, Witness BB? (5) • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you would kindly turn to page 781 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 285. • Q.: Again, you've testified previously about this. Is there a date in the upper left-hand corner of 781? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Is that date July the 12th, 1995? • A.: It is. • Q.: And that is written in your hand, is it not? • A.: No. (15) • Q.: All right. Let me turn your attention now to page 800 in this particular notebook. Do you see a date in the right-hand, lower portion of that page? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is the date that you see? (20) • A.: The 13th of July, 1995. • Q.: Witness BB, the conversation that's the object of Prosecutor's Exhibit 342 appears to be between the dates of July the 12th and July the 13th notations that are in the notebook. What is the date you, therefore, conclude you intercepted this particular conversation? (25)
• A.: The 12th of July, 1995.
(5) (K.:) Is Djukic there? (X.:) ... (K.:) If he can let him send me these trailer-trucks immediately. (X.:) ... (10) (K.:) Good. All right. (X.:) ... (K.:) Here at my place in the command. (Poor audibility)" Let me ask you, in this exhibit and in previous exhibits, Witness (15)BB, there appear to be dots at various locations within the text of the conversation. What is represented by those dots? • A.: They mean part of the conversation which was completely incomprehensible. MR. HARMON: If we could turn to the next exhibit, please, (20)Mr. Usher, it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 343, and Mr. Usher, if you would kindly turn to the corresponding page in Prosecutor's Exhibit 285, again found at tab 7, if you would turn to page 791.
• Q.: Now, comparing the exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 343 with the
(25)entry that's found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 285, at pages 791 and 792, are
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Is that your handwriting? • A.: Yes, it is. (5) • Q.: So you intercepted this particular communication; is that correct, Witness BB? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Again, I asked you to attempt to date this conversation, and let's go through that exercise very quickly again. (10) MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you would turn to 781 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 285. • Q.: This is a date we've seen before. The date of July the 12th, 1995 appears on the upper left-hand corner at page 781; is that correct, Witness BB? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: If we could turn to page 800 in this same exhibit, we can see again a date we've seen before, July the 13th, 1995, found on page 800; is that correct, Witness BB? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Since the conversation that is reflected in Prosecutor's Exhibit 343 is found between the dates of 12 July 1995 and 13 July 1995, are you able to provide the Trial Chamber with a date when this particular conversation was intercepted? • A.: Yes. This conversation was intercepted on the 12th of July, 1995. (25)
• Q.: Then I will read this into the record, this conversation.
(5) (Y.:) We are starting the evacuation of those who want to go to Kladanj. (X.:) OK. (Y.:) Pass it on ... just /let them/ provide transportation. (10) (X.:) ... (Y.:) And reinforce ... with trucks and buses, and a water tank should be sent, to give them water and food. This morning we organised it here, we'll give them everything. I talked (15)with them and we'll accept all of the civilians who want to and they can stay. Those who don't want to can choose where they'll go. (X.:) ... (20) (Y.:) ... see you, bye. /signed/" with a name inserted therein. Let me turn to the -- MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I think we're rapidly coming to a close for the day's work. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You're quite right, Mr. Harmon.
THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
the 26th day of June, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.
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