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(1)Thursday, 23 March 2000 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, to the interpreters. Yes, I can hear you. We're back to resume the case against (10)General Krstic. I believe I see Mr. Cayley behind this pillar. There's always this problem, but I see that the team is here. We can now move on with our case. I believe we have one witness today. Mr. Harmon, is that so? (15)
MR. HARMON: We are continuing with
Mrs. Omanovic, Mr. President. Good morning,
Mr. President and Your Honours; good morning, counsel.
WITNESS: CAMILA OMANOVIC
[Resumed] JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Mrs. Omanovic. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. Good morning. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You will
(5) • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: [Cont'd] • Q.: Good morning, Mrs. Omanovic. • A.: Good morning. • Q.: Before we return to your description of the events in Potocari, I want to ask you a few questions (10)about some individuals. Do you know the Streten Petrovic family? • A.: Yes, I do, that family, because Streten lived in the same area with me. • Q.: Approximately how old is Streten Petrovic? (15) • A.: Forty-ish. Slightly younger than I am. • Q.: Do you know the name of Streten Petrovic's father? • A.: They called him Ilija Saspata, and even before the war he had a very characteristic long (20)moustache.
• Q.: Thank you very much. Now, let us return to
where we were yesterday when we took a recess. In your
testimony, you had described your flight from
Srebrenica to Potocari, and you told us that you had
(25)arrived at a location known as the Zinc Factory. Is
• A.: Yes. We reached the compound of the zinc plating unit and that is where we spent the night. • Q.: Can you describe to the Judges the conditions (5)in which you found yourself at the zinc factory?
• A.: When we arrived from Srebrenica, we were in
the yard of the zinc factory and nearby factories.
People came there simply -- I don't know why, but we
somehow thought we would not go any further because the
(10)UN base was there. So we somehow thought we should put
up there for the night, that we should make the best we
could. And everybody, whatever personal effects he had
with him, looked where he would spend the night.
So it was kind of a plateau, an area where we
(15)gathered. I found a cover of a container that they
used to zinc plate in that factory, so we used that,
covered it, and that was our bed. The baby had its
pram, and we left our belongings in the pram and we
simply lied down on the ground. Or, rather, you
(20)couldn't lay down, you simply had a corner where you
waited what would happen next.
As we sat there, snipers would fire every now
and then, and all this throng would then move to one
side or the other, screaming. Above us was the Pecista
(25)village where the Serb soldiers were firing at houses.
• Q.: You mentioned the village of Pecista. Could (10)you tell the Judges what you saw happening to that particular village and houses around it? • A.: Above the village of Pecista, along the edges of the village, the houses were -- around there the houses were torched. They were firing shells and (15)everything was going up in the air. • Q.: Were you in a position where you could see the soldiers lighting the houses on fire? • A.: I couldn't see the soldiers myself, but the houses were being put on fire. You can't see it with (20)the naked eye but you can see the flames. You can see it's burning. • Q.: Now, in and around the zinc factory, how many people were with you? Can you estimate the number of refugees? (25)
• A.: The exact number I couldn't really give you,
• Q.: What kind of food, what kind of water was (10)available to the refugees? • A.: Only what one happened to bring along, but mostly people went without food and without water.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours,
I'm going to now show a film clip that is approximately
(15)47 seconds long, so it is a clip that will be -- you
have to look at very quickly, but it will show the
crowds of people. If we could have the lights reduced
and we could show this clip. As I say, it's very
brief, and it's taken from footage that we have
(20)available to us, and we believe it accurately reflects
the number of people in and around at the particular
moment. It is Exhibit number 51. MR. HARMON: (25)
• Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, you've seen this film footage
(5) • A.: Yes, quite, as this film shows. It describes accurately the situation in which we found ourselves in Potocari. • Q.: Now, on the night of the 11th, when you were in and around the Zinc Factory, can you tell the Judges (10)the general mood, the general mental state of the refugees? • A.: People were all frightened, people were all hungry, people were scared out of their wits. They didn't know what would happen next, so that those were (15)people who were terrified. I don't know -- I don't really know how to describe it. • Q.: All right. Well, let's focus our attention, then, on the following day, Mrs. Omanovic, because the next day you were selected to become a representative (20)of the Muslim people and you were selected to attend the meeting at the Hotel Fontana. Can you tell the Judges how it was that you were selected?
• A.: In the morning, when the next morning came,
Ibro Nuhanovic, Zina Civic, and Nesib Mandzic came to
(25)look for me. And they said, "We have to go to the
MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours,
I'm going to now show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 49,
(25)which is a small segment of film footage from that
THE INTERPRETER:
[Voiceover]
"SOLDIER: This is their interpreter.
"CAMILA: We are representatives -- wait a
(15)moment.
"VOICE: Good morning.
"NUHANOVIC: Ibro Nuhanovic.
"MLADIC: What will you have? I will have
mineral water, and offer them some juices. Madam, what
(20)is your profession?
"CAMILA: I am an economist.
"MLADIC: Where did you study?
"CAMILA: In Brcko.
"MLADIC: Are you married?
(25)"CAMILA: I am.
(5) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, that film clip is only a portion of the meeting; is that not correct? • A.: Yes, it is. It is only a fragment of the meeting at which I was present. (10) • Q.: Describe the meeting, when you came in, what happened once you came in.
• A.: I entered the room, and that is when I saw my
schoolfellow Miroslav Deronjic. I was really
terrified. Then at some point I turned to him and I
(15)said, "Miroslav, dear, what are you doing to all those
people. Help us. They're all bare handed, hungry,
barefoot, driven to the stadium like cattle, left at
the mercy of those men. They're firing, targeting at
them."
(20)Then Mr. Mladic told us to sit down, because
we knew one another. And he said that he had
experienced the greatest success of his life during
those days, the conquest of Srebrenica. And my feeling
was that he had prepared it all as a form of theatre,
(25)as a stage to show it all to us.
• Q.: Now, you mentioned at the beginning of the meeting that you had a conversation with Mr. Deronjic. MR. HARMON: If I could have the next exhibit which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 52 disseminate, and if I (20)could have it also placed on the ELMO. Just a little lower, please. • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, this is a still image taken from the film we just saw, and let me ask you if you can identify in Prosecutor's Exhibit 52 Mr. Deronjic. (25)
• A.: He was sitting across the table. This is him
• Q.: The record should reflect -- • A.: The man with whom I went to school. MR. HARMON: The record should reflect that (5)Mrs. Omanovic has pointed to the man in the far right-hand corner of the image, the man in the black jacket holding a glass in his left hand. • Q.: Now, you mentioned that you made a request at the beginning of the meeting or a plea of some sort to (10)Mr. Deronjic. What did Mr. Deronjic say to you after you made that request? • A.: He was trying to explain that he too had had victims in that war, but Mladic interrupted him. Mladic wouldn't let anyone discuss, and I had the (15)feeling that he wanted to have the main say in the meeting. • Q.: Did anybody else have any say in the meeting or was General Mladic the person who was conducting the meeting alone? (20) • A.: It was General Mladic who conducted the meeting alone most of the time.
• Q.: Let me show you the next exhibit, which I'd
ask also to be placed on the ELMO, which is
Prosecutor's Exhibit 53. I'd also ask that that be
(25)disseminated to the Court and to counsel.
(5) • A.: I know this man here [indicates] • Q.: You're pointing to the man with the green shirt, civilian shirt, on the left-hand side of the image. How do you know that man? • A.: Yes, I'm pointing at him. I just know him. (10)I don't know what his name is. We used to run into each other in town. He lived in Bratunac, and I would often go to Bratunac to visit my sister. Bratunac was the town that was closest to Srebrenica, and we used to meet each other. We used to know a lot of people from (15)Bratunac. And I went there, when I went to see about the situation, about the evacuation, I saw that man. He was standing somewhere near the buses. • Q.: What did he say, if anything?
• A.: He said, "Mrs. Camila, where are your
(20)children?" But I lied to him. I told him that my
children had already left by bus. He said, "No one can
help you. Your fate has been determined."
At that moment, I simply knew that nothing
would go well, that we didn't have many chances of
(25)survival, myself and my family, because my children
• Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, after the meeting concluded, where did you go? • A.: We were taken back to the UN base. As we (5)were going out, as we were going towards the UN camp, I saw that the Serb soldiers had already mingled with our population. They were armed and they were walking around. So I asked the driver to take me back to the location where my children were and he did that. So (10)instead of going to the UN base, I went to my children. I was waiting for Nuhanovic and Mandzic to join us, because we had an agreement in Bratunac that there was supposed to be a list and the evacuation was (15)supposed to begin with elderly people, women and children, and I thought that this would happen, but they never showed up. They never came back to do that. We simply saw trucks and buses arrive after that and there was no order whatsoever. People started (20)boarding buses and the evacuation started. • Q.: Now, on the 12th, did you also see General Mladic in Potocari?
• A.: Yes, I did. He was standing behind the
yellow ribbon and he was accompanied by his soldiers.
(25)They distributed several bars of chocolate to the
(5) • Q.: Now, you said that people started to go toward the buses. Did that include families with male members, with fathers and sons? • A.: Yes. All of the families started boarding those trucks, and again there was a big crowd of people (10)and the atmosphere was the same as the one in Srebrenica before that. People felt that they would be saved if they boarded trucks. Everybody was yelling. Children were crying. Everybody at the same time started moving towards the entrance where the buses (15)were. Everybody together, including women and men and children. • Q.: Did you see anything happen to the men and the boys who were with the families moving toward the buses? (20)
• A.: Yes, I did. They were being separated.
Between buses and along the street where the buses were
lined up for transport, there were lots of soldiers and
civilians who had the right to separate people. It
seemed that everybody had the right to separate people
(25)from the line.
(5) • Q.: Now, where did the men and the boys who were separated go? • A.: They went towards the White House. It was an uninterrupted column of people, very quiet, very calm, and you had the feeling that it would never stop, it (10)would never be interrupted. New people were coming, and the people at the end of the column would disappear behind the White House. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges the range of ages of these males who had been separated and were queuing up (15)in front of the White House? • A.: All of them were above 13 years of age. There were lots of young boys who looked older, but those who were above 13 were separated. • Q.: Did you see anybody -- any boy who happened (20)to be disabled amongst the males who had been separated? • A.: I saw Mirza Mehmedovic. He was a totally handicapped person. He couldn't communicate at all. He was mentally retarded. (25)
• Q.: And was he in line as well, going toward the
• A.: Yes, he was. He was trying to say something to them, but they simply pushed him aside. He was also separated, together with others. He was completely (5)mentally retarded. He was unable to explain anything to anyone, but he was still separated. • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, do you know if he survived? • A.: No, he did not survive. • Q.: Now, the men who had been separated, did they (10)have with them personal effects, bags of their possessions? • A.: They had their personal effects, but they couldn't take them into the White House. There was a huge pile of things and people were told to leave their (15)personal belongings on that pile, that they couldn't take anything with them. • Q.: Now, after you saw this, Mrs. Omanovic, where did you go? • A.: I went back to my family, and at that (20)point -- you mean after Bratunac? • Q.: After you had seen the separation of these men and boys and you'd seen General Mladic in and around Potocari, did you return back to the Zinc Factory and did you move to another location? (25)
• A.: I went to the Zinc Factory where my family
(15) • Q.: Now, when you say that the soldiers were cursing, were they cursing at your daughter or were they cursing at other refugees? • A.: They were cursing my daughter. They were really very vulgar. "You're so young and you have a (20)child." And it's true, she was very young, she had a child, but they were glancing at her with hostility, and I was really afraid for her. • Q.: Now, you say you moved. Did you move to the bus compound across the way from the Zinc Factory? (25)
• A.: Yes. This is where I moved and this is where
• Q.: Now, how many other refugees were in and around the bus compound where you had relocated yourself? (5) • A.: Everybody except for those who were not able to board the buses. Everybody was there and the space was getting narrower. We were crowded next to each other so as to be as close as possible to the transport, to the buses. (10) • Q.: Are you able to estimate the number of people in and around the bus compound? • A.: Again, it must have been several thousand, because in the evening, we learned that only 1.000 people had been able to leave. So everybody who (15)eventually went to Tuzla was there, but we were all very crowded because people were in a hurry to board the buses. • Q.: Now, I'd like you to describe what you saw and what you heard the night of the 12th and the early (20)morning of the 13th while you were at the bus compound.
• A.: The second night was even worse than the
first night, and I think it was the worst night I ever
had in my life.
(25)In the evening and throughout the night, Serb
• Q.: Let me interrupt you there for just a minute. I'm sorry. But when you said -- I'd like to stay focused, if we can, for just a few more minutes, on the night before you attempted to board the buses (10)yourself. So if we could stay focused on that for just a minute. You said that people would come into the compound and they would take refugees out of the compound. Who were those people who were coming into (15)the compound and how were they dressed? • A.: Serb soldiers came. They were wearing Serbian uniforms and UN uniforms, and they mingled with the population. They were walking amongst us and they were looking for people -- on what basis, I don't (20)know -- using flashlights, and they would point to certain individuals, who would then be taken away. • Q.: And do you know a man by the name of Sefik Mustafic?
• A.: Yes, I know him. He's a neighbour of mine.
(25)He was sitting next to us all that time while we were
• Q.: Tell the Judges what happened to that gentleman. • A.: Sefic Mustafic was taken away, and after a (5)while he returned. He was frightened. And we wanted to know what had happened, where he had been. But he said he didn't dare tell us everything, that he couldn't tell us everything, that perhaps one day he would tell us what had happened. So he spent some time (10)sitting next to us and then he left. We thought he had just gone for a walk, but he hanged himself. • Q.: Now, let me ask you if while you were in the compound you had heard women being raped by Serb soldiers. (15) • A.: Everything that took place in the camp we could see or hear, because we were sitting next to each other. Rumours were spreading quickly. We could hear about rapes, murders, people being taken away. We were all in the know, because we were all amassed at (20)one place and news would spread quickly. So whoever saw something would tell it to his neighbours, so we knew exactly what was happening where in the camp, at all times.
• Q.: Now, what effect did the separation of males,
(25)boys and husbands, from their families, what effect did
(5) • A.: All the while while we were staying there in the camp, we were just trying to figure out who would be next to be killed or to be taken away. We were just waiting for that to happen. And that's why people were in such a hurry. That's why people wanted to leave as (10)quickly as possible. People were losing patience. They wanted something to happen. They couldn't handle the uncertainty. And that was the effect on the population. We simply wanted to get away from there as quickly as possible. (15) • Q.: Now, did you subsequently learn that your young son had seen something while you were at the bus compound, and can you explain that to the Judges, please. • A.: My son went to fetch some water, and he saw (20)five or six human bodies that had been slaughtered near the river bank. He wouldn't leave me after that. He didn't talk about it anymore, but he wouldn't be separated from me after he had seen that terrible scene. (25)
• Q.: Now, Mrs. Omanovic, I'd like to turn now to
• A.: On that morning, I decided to leave. I took
(5)my children. We were holding each other's hands. I
took the baby and I went to the -- up to the yellow
ribbon. It was very difficult. Everybody was trying
to leave.
So I went to a vehicle which was a personnel
(10)carrier. I thought it was an ICRC vehicle. A lady was
there who was acting as an interpreter. She was
telling people to calm down. I tried to contact her.
I tried to ask her to take the children and that I
would come back, but she obviously didn't understand
(15)what I was saying. So I went to the first vehicle, but
some people were standing there who wouldn't let us on,
and we were not allowed to board any of those buses.
But there were a lot of people behind us.
Again, a separation was taking place. Some
(20)people were let on those buses, some were put aside.
We were taken to the first truck, and near each truck
there would be some kind of rock, or a stool, with
some -- there was some jewellery on it. And one person
asked -- one person gave me several rings and a medal,
(25)and I didn't know -- I couldn't figure out why he was
(25)
• Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, let me ask you: You mentioned
• A.: Again, people were separated in Bratunac. It was at the very beginning of the war. This took place (5)on the Bratunac playground. Lots of people had been taken away on that occasion, and we haven't heard of them ever since, and they must have been killed. • Q.: Now, after you crawled under the fence that you just described, what happened, Mrs. Omanovic? (10)
• A.: I ran to the UN base and I called the
interpreters. I told them that people should be helped
and I told them that people were being taken off the
buses on the way to Bratunac. And I told them that
people were being separated elsewhere, not only in
(15)Potocari, and something should be done to help them.
Then a brother of mine -- my brother came and
I asked him to try to help me kill myself. I was
afraid of falling into the hands of Serbian soldiers,
because there were terrible stories that were being
(20)told about them. And at that moment I could only think
of those rumours, those stories. There were stories
about rapes, slaughters, and I was afraid that my
daughter would be raped in front of my own eyes, that
my grandchild would be slaughtered, and I couldn't
(25)simply face it. And this man, he had already prepared
THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, but it's very difficult to follow the witness. The interpreter apologises. (5) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, would you just slow down a bit? I've received a word from the interpretation booth that they're having difficulty because of the pace of your testimony. Could you slow down a bit. (10)
• A.: Very well. And my brother showed me the
noose he had prepared for himself, and I pulled it out
of his hand and I climbed to the upper floor of the UN
base. There were lots of people, and children were
standing at the window and watching those trucks moving
(15)away. And I asked them to go away from the window,
because it was -- I had heard that a body of a person
who hangs himself is very ugly.
So that is what I tried to do. I climbed a
chair and I saw two Serb soldiers with UN soldiers
(20)coming up, and I felt -- I must have been so terrified
that I thought they were looking for me. So I climbed
up on that rack which was there for drying and I laid
there, and they walked up and down, were looking what
was going on. They went around, they went back. And
(25)as they were climbing down the stairs I sat on that
• Q.: Mr. Omanovic, thank you very much. MR. HARMON: I've concluded my direct examination, Your Honours. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, (10)Mr. Harmon. Before we move on to cross-examination, perhaps it would be good to make a break, so that now a 20-minute break. --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mrs. Omanovic, you will now be answering questions which the Defence counsel for General Krstic, that is, Mr. Petrusic or Mr. Visnjic, will ask you. Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours; good morning, my learned friends from the Prosecution. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:
• Q.: Good morning, Mrs. Omanovic. Before I ask
(25)you some questions, I should like to tell you that it
(15) • A.: I could say that it was spontaneous. As they came out of the town, men and women headed for Potocari and men towards Kazani, and, yes, it was next to the petrol station. • Q.: Among the men, were there some wearing (20)uniforms? • A.: I don't know when I should begin to answer. If I could know only when to start answering. If somebody could tell me.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Your Honours,
(25)we seem to have the problem with the language because
• A.: No, no. Somebody told me -- MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] If I may, at the end of each of my questions, should I say, "This is (5)the end of my question," so that the witness knows that she can begin with her answer? Could I do that? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon perhaps will explain. Yes, Mr. Petrusic. Just a moment. (10) MR. HARMON: I explained to the witness, because counsel speaks the same language as the witness, that she needed to pause so that we didn't have overlap and create a problem for the interpreters, and I think that is the source of the problem. She is (15)inquiring when she needs to commence her answer. So that, I think, is the problem.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Thank
you, Mr. Harmon, very much for this clarification.
Mr. Petrusic, Mrs. Omanovic, as you know,
(20)when we speak the same language, then there is always a
risk of speaking too fast and not making a pause so the
interpreters can keep up, because the interpreters are
always a couple of seconds behind of what was being
said. So could you just wait a little.
(25)So Mr. Petrusic, if you just make a pause
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: So Mrs. Omanovic, would you please answer my questions. Among those men, were there any wearing (20)uniforms? • A.: Yes, there were some uniformed men. Not very many, but here and there. Some of them had weapons. • Q.: They formed a column, didn't they?
• A.: Well, no, they didn't form a column. All I
(25)could see was only the beginning. Whether they formed
• Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, I should like to move on to the meeting on the 12th of July, at the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac around 10.00. We saw the footage. Did General Mladic (10)introduce each one of the participants in the meeting? • A.: Yes, he did. General Mladic did introduce all the participants of the meeting. • Q.: As he introduced General Krstic, did he say anything about him? (15) • A.: I don't remember. I don't remember him saying anything. I was too frightened, and I can't recall quite a number of details. • Q.: Did General Krstic take an active role in the meeting? (20) • A.: Again, I don't remember him saying anything. • Q.: And any one of the other participants in the meeting, did he take part in the discussion? • A.: No, I don't think so.
• Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, could you tell us: What were
(25)the conclusions of that meeting?
• Q.: And would you know if some minutes were made later on, or a record? Was it made later on? (15)
• A.: I know when a woman -- I don't know what her
name was -- some foreign television crew arrived to
make an interview with me to shoot something, and then
somebody -- his name was Mila. He was an interpreter.
I believe he was a Slovenian. He showed me something
(20)which was supposedly the record of that meeting, and it
figured my -- made a name, but it was not my
signature. So that was the first thing that I saw as a
can kind of a record of that meeting, but I did not see
anyone taking it during the meeting or anyone preparing
(25)it for signature when the meeting ended. The meeting
• Q.: And after that meeting did you see General Mladic in Potocari? • A.: I saw him when he arrived with a group of (5)soldiers. He walked around the compound and he distributed some chocolates to the children. But I think he's a great actor and he was doing this only because there were some cameras shooting him. • Q.: Just for a moment, I should like to go back (10)to the previous night, between the 11th and the 12th of July. Was there any gunfire around the compound then? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And between the 12th and the 13th, during that night? (15) • A.: No. • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, in your testimony you said that you heard rumours about rapes. Was it anything more than rumours, or did it end there; that is, did you receive any more reliable, any more trustworthy (20)information?
• A.: I said in my testimony that I did not see a
single murder, I mean with my own eyes. I did not
witness a rape. I heard all those sounds and
everything, but I did not see it with my own eyes. But
(25)in that compound, in that place where we were, the
• Q.: On the 13th of July, you and your family were not allowed to board the buses that were parked there, (5)were you? • A.: Quite right. They did not allow us. And I think that during this meeting with Mladic I did ask not to transport us as cattle, because I must again repeat what I'd heard: that so many babies suffocated (10)in that crowd, the first group that was transported to Bratunac. And I asked him to treat us properly as human beings. And he knew that I had a baby of three months, and he said, "At some point I'll take you in my own bus." But he would not allow it. I wasn't asking (15)for myself. He wouldn't allow my baby to board the bus, but the truck, and then they stoned the truck and did all sorts of things that they were not to do. • Q.: And who, then, boarded those parked buses which were standing next to those trucks? (20)
• A.: Well, again, people; again, the crowd -- I
don't know how to explain it to you. Next to every bus
there were standing men who were selecting. I don't
know what method they used, because there are always
some selection methods. Somebody says, "You can
(25)board," or "Just let him through." Or other people
• Q.: Those men who were making the selection who would and who would not board the bus, were they in uniforms? (10) • A.: Some were uniformed and some were in civilian clothes. • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, perhaps this is asking you to do too much, in view of the state that you must have been in at the time, but please allow me to ask you if (15)perhaps you noticed the patches, the insignia, the flashes of the military or the police or some other units there. Do you have any recollection of that? Can you tell us something about it?
• A.: Believe me that at that moment, whether I
(20)simply didn't want to or whether I didn't dare look at
any man, but I cannot bring back to my mind any single
face. I merely held my children next to me and I was
trying to board it. Nobody, except that man who was at
the meeting and who said that my fate was sealed, I did
(25)not recognise anyone. Was that fear? Was it
(10) • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, thank you. I have no further questions. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Your Honours. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, (15)do you have any additional questions? MR. HARMON: I do not, Mr. President. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. (20)Judge Riad. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Mrs. Omanovic, good morning. Can you hear me? • A.: Yes. Good morning, Your Honour. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: I don't want to prolong your
• A.: I think he meant the area of Srebrenica, (10)because that is the only point not held by Serbs. We were encircled as if we were in a camp, because the whole territory, all the hills around my town were held by Serbs. And so if we left, then this whole territory would be Serb. Because in the Drina Canyon, we were (15)from all sides surrounded by Serbs, and only that enclave, Srebrenica, was the territory which the Serbs had not captured yet. JUDGE RIAD: But also you could not go to any other Serb part of Bosnia? (20)
• A.: Nobody. It was only -- I don't really know
why, but nobody asked us, nobody made any lists, nobody
talked to us to reach some understanding, or anything.
They simply brought the buses. And they knew, because
such chaos reigned in Srebrenica, so they knew if they
(25)brought those five buses, or any number of vehicles,
JUDGE RIAD: Good. You also mentioned more than once that -- I can almost repeat what you said: People would -- anybody could come to the compound and point out to any person, to any individual, to be taken (15)away. What do you mean by, "Anybody could come and point out"? You meant soldiers, Bosnian Serb soldiers, or you meant even individuals, any Serb would come and choose a prey to take out?
• A.: Yes. They were only Serb soldiers, Bosnian
(20)Serb soldiers. They were taking away with those
torchlamps pointed at them. In daytime they would walk
around people, among those crowds, and people were
gathered there on two sides, and they would just walk
among them and take away those men and never came
(25)back. They would take one man after another one. They
(5) JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that among these people there were UN -- people with UN uniforms. Did I understand you rightly? • A.: Yes, you did. The second night, the Serb soldiers dressed -- because they spoke the same (10)language, Bosnian, and they had UN uniforms, and they came wearing uniforms as they came to us and moved around us. JUDGE RIAD: So it was Serb soldiers wearing UN uniforms? I don't hear you. (15) • A.: Yes. Yes. They were Serb soldiers wearing UN uniforms. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Riad. (20)Judge Wald, do you have any questions?
JUDGE WALD: Just a few. When the people
boarded the buses in Potocari, they were in a great
rush to get on the buses and to get out of there, as
you have told us. Did the people around you know where
(25)they were going? Did they know what would happen to
• A.: In order to put an end to this agony, people were leaving. They didn't know where they were (5)leaving, but they just wanted to put an end to that. They didn't know whether they would survive or die. They didn't know where they were going. JUDGE WALD: You also mentioned that on one of the nights there were screams around the compound, (10)but you could hear them but you didn't know what was actually happening. Were any of those screams women's screams? • A.: Yes, there were women's screams as well. There was a woman giving birth, which was not far from (15)me. She was crying. There was another woman that simply went crazy on a bus. She was -- this was influencing us all. It affected the atmosphere and created the atmosphere of terror that night.
JUDGE WALD: My last question is: You said
(20)that you feared very much falling into the hands of
Serbian soldiers or having your daughter fall into
their hands, and you referred to things that had
happened on the buses on the way to Bratunac. How did
you know what happened to any of the buses after they
(25)left Potocari? Where did that information come from
• A.: I don't know where those stories had come
(5)from, who was the origin of those rumours. All I know
is that throughout that period which we spent in
Srebrenica, terrible stories about genocide, for
example, were being told, genocide perpetrated by
Serbian soldiers on the civilian population, women,
(10)children. We were afraid of every single soldier. We
saw monsters in all of them, monsters who were capable
of most inhumane things.
This is why I was so fearful to end up in
their hands. Because death is nothing, but the way one
(15)dies is what counts, because we had been hearing table
stories about Serbian soldiers torturing people,
mutilating people, raping women, and I simply couldn't
allow that to happen to my children, because I was, in
a way, guilty for leaving them in Srebrenica, and I
(20)would have been responsible for their fate. I was the
one who actually made that decision in Srebrenica.
They were much too young to leave on their own. This
is why I felt so terrible, this is why I jumped out. I
just tried to see whether any help was possible.
(25)It's very difficult for me to be more
JUDGE WALD: But your fears were generated by these stories of what had happened in other villages and elsewhere, but you didn't have any specific (10)information about what had happened to the people on the bus that had left Potocari; is that right?
• A.: They were taking people away. They were
taking them away from the camp. We could hear screams
throughout the night. It was very difficult, because
(15)we felt that something terrible would happen.
During that night we were just sitting there,
and all of a sudden we would hear screams from a man
who was being tortured. It's a terrible thing to
experience. Because of such rumours, because of such
(20)stories, we all feared that we would be the next.
Maybe it was only my imagination, I don't know, but if
you keep hearing horrible stories, you cannot be
assured that your life would be spared.
When he said that he would take my children
(25)in a special vehicle, whereas we were actually not
JUDGE WALD: Thank you, Mrs. Omanovic. (5) • A.: You're welcome. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mrs. Omanovic, I have at least four questions for you. My first question is the following: Whilst you were at the meeting with General Mladic, at one (10)point he told you that you could choose between surviving and vanishing, and you said that "vanish" could, in a way, also include the possibility of survival somehow. What I would like to know is whether this possibility of survival was a conclusion of yours (15)or was it General Mladic who had actually said that? • A.: Well, he simply said, "You can survive or vanish." My conclusion was that if I leave, I would be saved; and if I stayed, I would die. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well (20)then. So the way you understood it was that there was actually no choice, because if you chose to stay, this would mean not to survive. Was that the case? • A.: Yes, exactly.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] My second
(25)question: There were people who were at the meeting
• A.: I thought I would simply disappear. I (5)thought that nobody could help me. I thought I had to be the one who had to vanish. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So you understood that something had already been prepared or determined in advance for you? (10)
• A.: Yes, exactly, because when he saw that my
fate had been sealed and when we reached the buses,
when we were not allowed to board the buses, when I got
to that truck where I was given this medal, I knew that
something was brewing, something bad.
(15)I had the typical instinct of a mother. I
wasn't worried about myself. I felt sorry for my
children. At that moment, I just jumped out. They
said I was brave at that moment. No. No, I wasn't. I
was just acting on the instinct of a mother who had to
(20)protect her children.
That is why I jumped off the truck. I ran to
that soldier who pointed his gun towards me and said to
him, "Kill me, just leave my children alone. They're
innocent. They're underage. My son is there on the
(25)truck." And this soldier was also frightened of me
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please do (15)calm down. We have profound respect for you and what you have suffered, and you are indeed a brave woman, because you needed a lot of force, a lot of strength to experience what you have been through. We also know you are a brave woman because you have come here to (20)testify. May I continue, Mrs. Omanovic? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mrs. Omanovic, you described, in very negative terms,
(25)Serbian soldiers. I would like to know: What was
• A.: Let me just have a sip of water and I will (5)tell you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please relax, Mrs. Omanovic.
• A.: Prior to the war, Serbian soldiers were not
behaving that way, or maybe they were simply
(10)pretending. We lived together, we socialised with each
other, we lived next to each other, we went to school
together, we worked together, and we respected mutually
our traditions, and it was very difficult to understand
where all that hatred had come from on the part of the
(15)people who had lived together with us.
When I think back, I know that I worked
together with four Serbs and two Muslims when I was
working as the chief accountant at that company. We
lived together very well. We had a good life. We
(20)would visit each other. I would bake typical Muslim
cakes for my Serbian friends for their family reunions
and celebrations, and it was so strange to see such a
sudden change. We couldn't realise where all that
hatred had come from.
(25)Today, after all that has happened, I'm
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] This is my (10)fourth question, Mrs. Omanovic: We saw several videotapes, and we saw the confusion which reigned in and around the base. You lived through all that, and I would like to know whether amidst that turmoil -- you were an educated person -- did you manage to notice, (15)were you able to observe any signs of organisation? Could you tell that things had been prepared in advance in any way?
• A.: I did have a feeling, because of what was
going on, that we had been brought to a stage where
(20)everything had been prepared in advance, that there was
a team of people working in an organised manner. And,
for example, at that meeting, things happened in such a
way that I had the impression that everything was
organised, and then the meeting stopped abruptly, and
(25)that was very strange. So, well, this is the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Who do you think was the chief organiser of all that? • A.: Well, it was General Mladic. He was a kind (5)of director there and he was also acting his role in that scene. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I do have a fifth question, Mrs. Omanovic. You know who General Krstic is, don't you? (10) • A.: I heard a lot about General Krstic. I met him for the first time in Bratunac during the negotiations. However, I had never seen him before that meeting, nor did I see him after the meeting. I haven't seen him, actually, until I've come here. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You say that you met him for the first time at the meeting in Bratunac. How did you know that the person in question was General Krstic? • A.: Well, I believe that introductions were made (20)at the meeting. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So somebody introduced you, introduced General Krstic to you. Do you remember the exact words that were used during that introduction? (25)
• A.: Well, "This is General Krstic."
• A.: I do not remember, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you (5)remember where in the room, where the meeting was being held, did General Krstic sit? • A.: I believe he was sitting on General Mladic's left-hand side. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, (10)thank you. Mrs. Omanovic, thank you very much for your answers to both my questions and questions put to you by my colleagues. Mrs. Omanovic, you have completed your testimony here before the International Criminal Tribunal, and I should like to express our gratitude (15)for your coming here. We do think you were a very brave person, despite what you may think of yourself. We can also tell that you're a tolerant person, reasonable person, and I hope that you yourself can also make a personal contribution so that your country (20)may again find peace and safety. Once again, thank you very much, Mrs. Omanovic, for coming to The Hague. THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, I think we should perhaps start with your next witness. (25)
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I move into
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, any objections? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No, Your (15)Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, then. The exhibits have been admitted into evidence. Mr. Harmon, perhaps we can begin the testimony of your next witness. (20) MR. HARMON: I'm informed by my colleague, Mr. Cayley, that this witness will require a closed session, and we're prepared to proceed with the next witness once the courtroom is closed.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I'm
(25)addressing the public now. We are now going to move
(5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] We have reached an agreement, Your Honour, and we do not have any objections to protective measures.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, Mr. Petrusic.
(10)Let us prepare the courtroom for the closed
session, during which we will hear our following
witness.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.36 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of March, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
