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(1)Friday, 24 March 2000 [Closed session]
--- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
pages 1210-1243 redacted - closed session.
--- Recess taken at 11.18 a.m.
--- On resuming at 11.50 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, I think some protective measures have been ordered in respect of this witness. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Pseudonym and face distortion is what he requested, because his family requested him to do that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do we have any objections from the Defence? (15) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well then. Protective measures will be applied. The pseudonym for this witness will be? (20) THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Witness D.
WITNESS: WITNESS D JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness D, can you hear me. (25)
THE WITNESS: Yes. I can hear you very well,
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Witness D. First of all, you are now going to read the solemn declaration. (5) THE WITNESS: Let me first of all bid good morning to everybody here in the courtroom. I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may sit (10)down, Witness D. The registrar is going to show you a piece of paper with your name on it. You're simply going to tell us if the name written on the paper is yours or not. THE WITNESS: Yes, it is mine. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Witness D, for coming here to testify. I hope that you are comfortable. THE WITNESS: This is my obligation as well. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. We do (20)take note of that. You are first going to answer questions put to you by Mr. McCloskey, who is representing the Prosecution. Mr. McCloskey, you have the floor.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President,
(25)Your Honours.
• Q.: Witness D, can you first tell us your date of birth and where you were born, and remember, and I'll remind myself, not to speak too fast. (5) • A.: I was born on the [redacted], in Srebrenica. • Q.: Are you Muslim by faith? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Where did you grow up? (10) • A.: I grew up in the area around the town of Srebrenica and in the town of Srebrenica as well. • Q.: What kind of education have you had? • A.: I'm a machine operator by profession, but I also did some additional training as well. (15) • Q.: Prior to the outbreak of the war, where were you living and who were you living with? • A.: Prior to the outbreak of the war, I lived with my wife and my child in our house in the village of Solocusa on the outskirts of Srebrenica. (20) • Q.: How old is your child now? • A.: Ten. • Q.: What was your occupation? What were you doing prior to the outbreak of the war?
• A.:
[redacted]
• A.: Yes, there were. There was a bauxite mine that was opened in the municipality of Vlasenica, and (5)it was only in 1982 that such a mine opened in the municipality of Srebrenica. • Q.: Okay. Let me take you to July 11th of 1995. Can you tell me where you were then and what you did? • A.: On the 11th of July, 1995, I was in my house (10)because I had been wounded. I had been wounded at the beginning of the war. • Q.: Did you and your family decide to do something that day? • A.: On that day, I decided to go towards (15)Potocari, because I believed that I would be protected there because I was a wounded person. • Q.: Did you take your family with you? • A.: Yes, I did. My wife went with me, together with our small child, who was five at the time. (20) • Q.: Why did you feel a need to go to Potocari? Can you tell us a bit about the events that caused you to go there?
• A.: I felt the need to leave because there had
been so much hatred in Srebrenica during the war, and
(25)because of that hatred, it was obvious that people had
• Q.: Was the Bosnian Serb army nearby on July (5)11th? • A.: Yes, it was. According to what I was able to see, units of the Serbian army were advancing. They may have already entered the town -- I think that they did, actually -- from the direction of Zeleni Jadar. (10) • Q.: Why wouldn't you just stay in your house and let them advance around you? • A.: Well, this would have been very difficult. I would have been dead, because everybody who remained ended up dead. (15) • Q.: Where did you go when you got to Potocari? • A.: When we got to Potocari, I saw a huge crowd of people there. I didn't have any adequate accommodation at all. I went to a factory hall which was part of the factory intended for inspection of (20)vehicles, and I happened to find a spot in one of the corners of that hall. • Q.: Was that known as a bus company or a bus compound?
• A.: Yes, it was. They were in charge of
(25)providing certain transport services in Srebrenica.
• Q.: And do you know about what time you arrived in Potocari and went inside the building of the bus (5)compound? • A.: I couldn't be very precise, but I think, as far as I can remember, that it must have been around noon on that day. • Q.: And what did you do that afternoon and (10)evening, and your family? • A.: In the afternoon of that day I personally remained in that building. Meanwhile, my wife went to fetch some food for our child in the evening. It should be important to stress that my wife is from (15)Potocari. Their [sic] parents had a house in the vicinity. • Q.: And was she able to get some supplies from that house? • A.: Yes. She went there, took certain things, (20)talked to her father, and that was the last time she saw him. • Q.: And what happened, if anything, that first evening in Potocari at the bus compound?
• A.: Nothing particular except that we could hear
(25)powerful detonations of shells. I believe the
• Q.: Can you describe the situation inside the compound; how many people, what their condition was, (5)how they were feeling? • A.: In a nutshell, it was horrible. Very many people in a very tight space. It was crowded. Children were crying. Needless to say, they needed to go to the lavatory. There was little food. They were (10)lying down on the concrete floor. Their mothers somehow tried to manage. They brought hay from nearby meadows and spread that on the floor so that the children wouldn't have to lie on concrete. • Q.: And did you get any sleep that night? (15) • A.: I did not manage to fall asleep that night, because I was in a sitting position, and I tried to sleep, but I couldn't. • Q.: And on the morning, the next morning of July 12th, what happened? (20) • A.: The next morning dawned and these scenes were almost the same, except that panic was mounting among the people there. And later on that morning I saw Serb soldiers in the same hall in which we were.
• Q.: Do you know what caused the panic to mount
(25)that morning?
• Q.: Now, where were these soldiers when you (10)actually were able to see them and hear them speaking? • A.: You mean the soldiers? • Q.: Yes. • A.: They entered in groups of two or three and they moved amongst the people, seeking their identity (15)documents. They particularly asked for identification documents from men, perhaps to check who those men were, and I guess it was their task, that it must have been a special group of soldiers tasked with checking who was among those civilians there. (20) • Q.: And how many of those soldiers did you actually hear speaking? • A.: Well, I could hear two groups, perhaps. One group talked to me personally and another one was in the immediate vicinity. (25)
• Q.: What did they say to you personally?
(5) • Q.: And roughly what time was this? • A.: It could have been -- well, I saw them sometime in the morning, so it could have been around noon sometime. • Q.: Did you ever make an effort to look outside (10)the bus compound or did you pretty much stay inside the compound? • A.: Since the door had been removed, there was no door, and the doorway was very broad, very wide, so one could see lots of people outside too. (15) • Q.: And did you ever see any Muslim men taken out of the compound? • A.: I did not see that that day, but in the office where they conducted technical inspection of vehicles, I noticed that Ibrahim Mustafic and Hamid -- (20)I can't remember his last name -- were missing. They were involved actually in politics. They were in the SDA party. • Q.: And what happened to Ibrahim Mustafic?
• A.: They must have taken him away for some kind
(25)of interview.
• A.: We know today that he is alive, that he was exchanged at Pale, which means that he had been taken (5)to Pale for some interviews, I presume. • Q.: How long did you stay inside the bus compound on July 12th? • A.: Towards the dusk, in late afternoon. From those women and men who wanted to go out, to leave, on (10)that 12th, we heard that men were being separated, and that frightened me, so that naturally I tried to find some safety, to find a safer place where I wouldn't be noticed. • Q.: And so where did you go? (15) • A.: I thought that the buses in front of the building could provide -- could prove a good shelter. Let me explain it. Those were buses which belonged to the Srebrenica Express Depot, but they had been completely broken down. There were no window panes or (20)anything, no wheels or anything. And I happened to be on such a bus next to the road. • Q.: And did you take your family into that bus next to the road?
• A.: Yes. My wife and my child were also in that
(25)bus, and on our way there we found -- we came across my
• Q.: So your mother was in the bus also? • A.: Yes. She joined us as we were moving towards that bus. (5) • Q.: And did you spend the night of July 12th in that bus with your family? • A.: Yes. I spent the night with my family in the bus. • Q.: And did you ever leave the bus that night? (10) • A.: No, I did not leave the bus that night, because one could feel -- one could hear -- one heard screams, loud screams, of women, of children; children were crying and screaming. It was beyond description, and I shall never forget that. (15) • Q.: Can you describe it in a little more detail, what it was like that night, what you heard, what you saw?
• A.: I could not see anything because I was
sitting down in that bus, and all around us and in the
(20)immediate vicinity, one could hear loud screams such
as, "Let me go," "Don't," "Please let me be," "Leave me
alone," women crying, women screaming, asking for
help. All this was creating panic, creating an
atmosphere of fear. The atmosphere seemed to be
(25)boiling.
• A.: When the day broke at long last, I decided to start in the same direction as other people; that is, (5)to try to leave that area, because I could see that that was the only solution. • Q.: Prior to you leaving the bus, did your wife go outside the bus? • A.: Yes. My wife wanted to find some water for (10)the child. And as I have said in the beginning, she used to live in Potocari. She knew well every house in Potocari. So she went to a house across the road to fill a bottle with water, that is, about a litre of water. When she came back, she told me that she had (15)seen a lot of blood on the ground floor of that house. • Q.: So then what did you decide to do? • A.: Well, naturally I was shaken by that. But I asked my wife not to tell that to my mother, because she was terribly afraid as to what might happen next. (20)I picked up the child, and I headed for the group at the exit where there were two UN APCs parked. • Q.: What were your intentions at this time?
• A.: I wanted to get out. I simply could not
stand it any longer. And I was thinking, even if I'm
(25)separated from them, right, I'm separated, but if I
• Q.: So what did you do? • A.: Well, I found myself in an even bigger crowd of people, because everybody was trying to get out. (5)When I say "people," I mean both women and children, and a few men were still in the same crowd, still. I managed to, after quite a long period of time, that is, after an hour or perhaps even more, I somehow managed to make my way to those APCs, to the exit, and I was (10)carrying my child with me. My wife and my mother were not far from me, but they were somewhat lagging behind in all that throng. • Q.: Okay. And keep describing what happened.
• A.: Yes. I managed to get through, and as I came
(15)to the APCs, and I have said that they were to the left
and to the right-hand side of the road, and in front of
those APCs were UN soldiers, their hands tied together
into two lines so as to prevent uncontrolled passage;
that is, one had to -- only several people could pass
(20)through at a time, not the whole crowd together. I
managed to get through.
Then I saw Serb soldiers who had already
reached the buses had moved away for a moment, and I
think that somebody must have called them and they just
(25)moved away for a moment, and that proved to be a
• Q.: So when these Serb soldiers left for a moment, what did you and your family do? • A.: I boarded a bus, and so did my family, my (5)wife and my mother, and I was carrying the child, as I said. So I got on the bus and immediately ran next to the -- next to the rear door of the bus. I just made two or three steps and I sat down on the floor of the bus. My wife followed suit, and my mother, and I (10)should say about ten women or so with children also got on the bus. So I was quite covered by them as I was sitting on the floor. After that, I heard some male voices, rather, Serb soldiers asking whether there were any men on the (15)bus. Nobody answered. None of those women said anything, and they did not insist. • Q.: So were you trying to hide from the Serb soldiers? • A.: Yes, as a matter of fact. And I did hide (20)from those Serb soldiers because the bodies of those children and women hid me. After that, more people crowded on to the bus, women and children, I mean. • Q.: Why did you feel a need to hide from the Serb soldiers? (25)
• A.: It is quite clear why I felt such need.
• Q.: Were you afraid something might happen to you after you were separated or if you were separated? (5) • A.: Naturally, because of this major hatred, as I said in the beginning. I knew that this major hatred had developed amongst the Serbs, and because of that hatred, anything could happen. • Q.: Okay. So after you got on the bus and other (10)people got on the bus, what was the next thing that occurred? • A.: The bus was overcrowded by that time, and the driver tried to shut the doors several times. It was very difficult, because there were just too many (15)people. But he finally managed to do that, and the bus headed for Bratunac. • Q.: Okay. Can you describe that trip? What you know of it anyway. • A.: Yes. What I could hear on the bus, that is, (20)women in the bus were commenting where the bus was going, and they said, "Now we're in Bratunac." "Now we're here." "Now we're there." So they were saying that all the time until the bus stopped.
• Q.: Could you tell, from what they were saying,
(25)what direction the bus was going in besides Bratunac?
• Q.: Did you ever look out of the bus at any time during this trip? • A.: Yes. In Kravica, we heard loud screams and (10)crying, shrieks of women and children. I could not but look as to what was going on, so I stood up from where I was sitting, looked to the left and right of the windows of the bus and I saw men, some who were lying down in the meadow, and they did not seem to be moving, (15)and others who had been captured, with their arms and hands up behind their -- at the neck. • Q.: Can you tell about how many men you saw captured with their hands and arms around their neck? • A.: I think it must have been a group of about 50 (20)or slightly more people. • Q.: Could you tell who these people were, whether they were Serbs or Muslims?
• A.: They were Muslims. I can positively claim
that because they were wearing civilian clothes, and
(25)they looked horrified.
• A.: Yes. Near them were several Serb soldiers. • Q.: Were those soldiers armed? • A.: The Serb soldiers, yes, they were armed. (5) • Q.: After that, on the trip towards Luke, did anything else significant occur that you recall? • A.: On our way to Luke, the bus was stopped several times, and they also thought to check whether there were any men, but the driver behaved decently and (10)kept telling them that he was taking only women and children. At some point, they wanted to check that. They asked him to open both the front and the rear door. He had to open them, of course, but they did not spot me. (15) • Q.: Did you see any other men on the bus you were on? • A.: In that bus I did see a man but of a very advanced age. He must have been 70 at least. • Q.: So you just saw one other man or more? (20) • A.: Only one in that bus. I did not see any other man on the bus. • Q.: Okay. What happened when the bus stopped at Luke?
• A.: When the bus reached its destination, that
(25)is, that platform, I heard the driver, who said to
• Q.: So what did you do and your family? (5)
• A.: I got off the bus too with my child in my
arms. My wife had her backpack on her back, and she
was supporting my mother because she was old and very
frail. So she was looking after my mother, and I was
taking care of my child and had it in my arms. My
(10)child was five years old.
After we had got off the bus and had made
just a few steps, I noticed several Serb soldiers. One
of those Serb soldiers pulled me by the shoulder and
said, "Give the child to your wife and you come with
(15)us." I had to do that. So I gave the child to my
wife. I tried to turn once again, because I knew that
was the last time I would see my child. As a matter of
fact, I was about to say something. I wanted to say
anything, but then I couldn't.
(20)At that moment, the Serb soldier pushed me
with his rifle and said, "Move on." Then he turned to
a man who was sitting on a slight elevation by the road
and who was wearing camouflage trousers and a sweater,
and he said, "Major, what do we do with him?" And
(25)that man indicated with his hand, and he was pointing
• Q.: Then what happened? • A.: I started in front of that Serb soldier. He was a few steps behind me. All of a sudden, he said, (5)"I seem to know you. Did you work for [redacted] perhaps?" And I said, "Yes, I did." So he said, "Do you know me?" I answered, "Perhaps from sight but not really." Then he said that he had worked as a surveyor and that I surely remembered him, because he, as he (10)said, used to come to our company quite often because he was surveying that mine. I mean, he did his surveyor's job and often came to the mine. • Q.: Did you in fact recognise this person? • A.: His face was familiar, but I didn't know his (15)name. And we continued along that road and then we turned left. And there I noticed a structure. It was the Luke school. And he brought me right -- we fetched up right up in front of the house, of the school, because I noticed and I recognised a young fellow from (20)Srebrenica, whose hands were tied behind his back, and that fellow's name was Abdul Kadir. As a matter of fact, he was a medical -- a lab technician, and he used to work for the war hospital in Srebrenica.
• Q.: Let me take you back a little bit. When you
(25)were speaking to this person that identified himself as
• A.: Yes, I do. I am familiar with the dialects of the area. He spoke normally, the way we do, I mean we Bosnians who lived in that particular area. • Q.: And was the direction that the person that he (10)referred to as "the Major," was the direction the Major pointed in, was that the direction you went in to the school? • A.: Yes. Yes. We continued in the direction which was indicated by that man. (15) • Q.: And do you know about what time you arrived at the school? • A.: Well, my assumption is that it may have been sometime around 10.00 a.m., or perhaps a little later than that. (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, at this time I'd like to show the witness a few exhibits. If we could start with Exhibit 10/1. And that's a panorama. And if I could ask a little help with the ELMO on that so he can ... (25)
• A.: On this photograph one can see the school
• Q.: Okay. Can you maybe point out on the road (5)anything that you recognise, and tell us about it? • A.: Yes, I can. So we came -- we were going towards this place here [indicates] We were moving in this direction. We went off the road here [indicates] and found ourselves in this part here [indicates], in (10)front of the school building. So this is where we were. MR. McCLOSKEY: I have to interrupt for one second. Indicating, for the record, it appeared he started at the end of the road where it goes out of (15)view and brought the pointer back towards the school building. • Q.: Can you tell from this photograph, can you see the general area where you first were stopped and separated from your family? (20)
• A.: As far as I can see, in the back you can
perhaps see one structure in the distance. It's a
house. And as far as I could observe, at the time
there was indeed a house next to the road, which had
some business premises as well. So the house was not
(25)far from here, where I'm indicating
[indicates] We
MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And for the record, he indicated sort of the end of the road as it goes out of (5)our view is the area where he started, and then he came back and turned towards the -- what is the left side of the house on the photograph. Could we show the witness Exhibit 10/2. • A.: Yes. Here as well one can see the school (10)building. There is a little path here leading behind the school. It is going to be mentioned later on in one of the testimonies. This is where the truck left with prisoners [indicates] You can see this area here, this clearing in front of the school, and we were (15)standing on this far side of the school. • Q.: Okay. Again, excuse me, Witness D. I just for the record need to indicate that you first pointed to what appears to be tyre tracks on the left side of the school, and then you came around in the front of (20)the school and where some white vehicles are parked. Okay.
• A.: No. Maybe we don't understand each other
very well. I said that this spot would be mentioned
later on. At that time we were still standing on that
(25)side. I'm just saying that I can see this particular
• Q.: Could you point where you were standing or (5)sitting when you first got to the school, with the pointer. • A.: You can't see the exact spot here, but it was in the area behind the school. The area cannot be seen on this photograph. Maybe you will have a more clear (10)picture later on. And later on we will see that there is a tree here [indicates] And I hope I'll be able to indicate it on a better photograph later on. MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. For the record, he was pointing to the area just in front of the white (15)trucks. And if we could go to the next exhibit, 10/3.
• A.: Yes. This is where you can see it clearly.
This is what I was talking about. You can see the part
(20)of the school that I mentioned. You can see the
stairs, which I will also mention later on. This is
the tree I was referring to and underneath which we
were sitting at the time. I know it very well.
Here you can see the access road leading from
(25)the asphalt road
[indicates] It was actually a small
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, the area of access of the building appeared to be an area near bush. In the right-hand corner of the photo it looks like there's a slight worn area there. • A.: Yes, I guess you could call it that way. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Can we see the next exhibit, which is 10/4. • A.: On this particular photograph we can see the classroom where we were brought in. Later on I will tell you more about that. I will explain how it (15)happened. The classrooms were all the same. We were brought to one of the classrooms first and then to another one. There was no furniture at the time in any of the classrooms, so these pictures must have been taken later on. (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you. That's all we need from the exhibits for now. • Q.: And can you tell the Court what happened, as you remember it, during the course of the day while you were sitting in this area? (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: We may have a little glitch.
• Q.: Witness D, can you hear me? • A.: It's only now that I can hear you. • Q.: Okay. Can you tell the Court what you did (5)during the course of the day by the side of this building? • A.: Immediately after I had arrived, after I was brought in by this Serbian soldier that I mentioned, my hands were tied by some shoelaces, or boot laces, by (10)other soldiers, and I was ordered to sit down next to this man, this young man, whom I have already mentioned, whose name I have mentioned. So I was sitting in the grass in front of the building and I could observe other people being brought in. (15)As the time went by, the number of people constantly increased. My back was turned towards the road, but I could still hear the sound of trucks and buses coming and leaving. So throughout that day I sat on that meadow in the grass. There were other people (20)coming in and they were also sitting in our vicinity. Not everybody was tied up. Mostly young men were being tied up. Elderly people were not tied up. Later you will probably read in one of the statements that everybody had been tied with a wire. (25)
• Q.: Okay. Let me ask you: Were you tied up with
• A.: My hands were tied up in the back. • Q.: And how about the person you've identified as Abdul -- I forgot the last part of his name -- as (5)Abdul. • A.: Abdul Kadir. • Q.: And were his hands tied also? • A.: Yes, his hands were tied as well. They were also tied in the back, like my hands. (10) • Q.: And by the end of the day, how many people had been brought to the group, total? • A.: All together there were 22 of us. • Q.: And what were the age ranges, roughly? • A.: There were younger men as well, up to 20 (15)years of age, but there were also some elderly people, people over 60. • Q.: What do you think was the youngest person that was in your group? • A.: I think that the youngest person was Abdul (20)Kadir, actually, and I believe that he was 19 or 20, or perhaps even younger than that.
• Q.: All right. And can you describe what
occurred in front of you besides all these men being
brought to your location? What were you able to see
(25)from your position here that happened that day?
• Q.: What made you think it was a military telephone? • A.: I was very familiar with that kind of telephone. It was a field telephone which we used in (15)the Yugoslav People's Army. So I knew very well this particular type of telephone. • Q.: Were you able to hear any of the statements or conversations that the Serb soldiers on the phone were making? (20)
• A.: I could hear only the words spoken by this
soldier whom they referred to as Zeljko. Zeljko was
one of those who behaved decently. While he was
talking on the telephone, he would simply say, "Yes,
sir. Yes, I'll do that. I will tell them that.
(25)Everything is okay," something to that effect. Those
• Q.: All right. And did you recognise any of the Serb soldiers that were at this location?
• A.: Yes, I did. The first person I recognised
(5)was the man who told me his name was Stanimir himself,
but he also mention that in a conversation with Abdul
Kadir. He actually approached us and he talked to
Abdul Kadir more. At one point he said, do you know
that you and your father are friends?" And Abdul
(10)Kadir replied that, yes, he remembered him a little.
At that point the man told him that his name was
Stanimir, that he lived in Vlasenica, that he had a
flat there and a car, and I remember noticing that he
had arrived in a red car, Lada type.
(15)I also recognised Savo Ristanovic. He was
one of the soldiers whose hair was very fair, blonde.
At one point he approached two prisoners, that is, the
people who had been brought from the buses. He came
near to them and they told him they had recognised him,
(20)and they addressed him as a neighbour. This man said,
"How are you, neighbour?" But the man got very
angry. He said, "Why are you asking me how I am?
First of all, you should tell me who set my
grandfather's house on fire." But these two, one of
(25)them must have said, "We do not know." Their names
• Q.: Okay. Are you sure it was Savo Ristanovic that you saw or was there some confusion on that? • A.: Savo Ristanovic, I knew his family name. I know that his family name is Ristanovic, but later on, (15)after I had reached the free territory and in some discussions with my friends, their wives told me or, rather, confirmed his identity. Those women had also been there. They had been brought in buses. At that moment, I couldn't remember his Christian name, but (20)they told him that his name was Savo. Somebody else was also asking about his grandfather's house and some other problems that apparently had been happening. • Q.: Was there a Momcilo Ristanovic?
• A.: Momcilo Ristanovic was also a cousin of his.
(25)They looked alike very much. So when I talked to my
• Q.: Let me get back to Stanimir for a moment? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I apologise, Mr. McCloskey, but I heard other French or English interpreters speak about a Ristanovic, but the (10)transcript says "Ristanic." Is there any difference between the two? You could perhaps repeat whether we are speaking about a man by the name of Ristanovic or Ristanic. The witness has said "Ristanovic." This is what I've been told just now by the interpreter, but I (15)can still see on the transcript "Ristanic." Could it be investigated please, and could you repeat the question to the witness, Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. • Q.: Did Stanimir, the person you've identified as (20)Stanomir, talk to you about anything or anyone?
• A.: Yes. Mr. Stanimir, that is the Serb soldier,
was talking to Abdul Kadir for a while, and during that
time I was sitting next to Abdul Kadir. At one point
he turned to me and he asked me where I had worked
(25)before. So I told him that I had worked in
[redacted]
(5) • Q.: And did you, in fact, know this person?
• A.: Yes. I knew him quite well. Let me
please -- are you referring to Stanimir or
[redacted] • Q.: Good question. [redacted], please. (10) • A.: Yes. Yes. I knew [redacted] very well. He was a colleague of mine. We used to work together, because for a while we were in the same department. We were very good colleagues and we were friends as well, and we used to work together for quite a long time. (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. McCloskey, again I'm sorry for interrupting you,
but I can see that the transcript is somehow
disappearing. My question concerned two family names,
"Ristanic" and "Ristanovic." That is what I wanted to
(20)know exactly, but I cannot see this on the transcript.
I think that we are talking about two different names,
and the French interpreter has confirmed that the
witness said "Ristanovic." My question concerning --
my question, as it appears on the transcript, does not
(25)reflect this distinction. I said "Ristanic" and then
MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I (5)thought the interpreter had cleared that issue up for you. I didn't realise you wanted me to do that, but I can do that now. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, it is true the interpreters have enlightened me, but this is (10)not reflected on the transcript, and that's why I ask the question again. Be that as it may, I think you could ask the witness whether this was one in the same person and whether the name of the person was "Ristanic" or "Ristanovic." I think these are two (15)different names. At least this is how I hear them. I can tell that there is a difference. I do apologise for interrupting you. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Witness, can you perhaps clear this up? What (20)was the name of the person that you recognised? What was the last name? • A.: Yes. It is important to be very precise here. The man's name was not "Ristanic" but "Ristanovic." (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: The record should reflect
• Q.: All right. Back to your conversation with
Stanimir. You told us that he had mentioned a person
named
[redacted] and that you had actually known
• A.: Yes, it is. He mentioned
[redacted], and
I asked him if it was possible for me to see
[redacted]
• Q.: What is this tunnel that was referred to by (15)Stanimir? • A.: Stanimir mentioned a tunnel which belonged to the lead and zinc mine in the vicinity of Srebrenica. People who live in Srebrenica know very well that the Sasi mine pit is dealing with export. They had also (20)dug a tunnel, a tunnel which reached as far as the outskirts of Srebrenica, and that particular tunnel was used in this military action.
• Q.: Did you see any other vehicles arrive,
besides this Lada that you talked about, at any time
(25)during the day?
• Q.: In the evenings -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, do you think we could make a break now? MR. McCLOSKEY: This would be a good time. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Twenty minutes. --- Recess taken at 1.00 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
(15)Mr. McCloskey, I believe that everybody expects today's
session to end at 2.30; however, I see that it was
scheduled to last until 3.00. But as you know, we have
another Initial Appearance at 3.30, and we need a break
for at least some lunch, to have something. So we
(20)shall work until 2.30. And that is something that I
have to see with the Prosecutor about your schedule for
next week. Perhaps at the end of our today's work
perhaps you could stop at 2.25. That would be very
fine. But now you may continue with your examination
(25)of the witness. Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey.
• Q.: Witness D, did you see any unusual vehicles come that day or that evening to this school area? • A.: As I have said, that Lada was the only (5)vehicle I saw during the day, but sometime in the evening a white Jeep vehicle arrived, and it was driven by the man who had introduced himself as Stanimir earlier in the day. • Q.: Could you tell who that white Jeep belonged (10)to? • A.: I think that a number of vehicles had been misappropriated from the Dutch Battalion in Srebrenica, and in my view, that vehicle had also been seized from the Dutch Battalion. And later on it was used, as I (15)could see, by Serb soldiers. • Q.: Did you see any Muslim women or girls get separated and come over to where you were during that day or evening?
• A.: That evening I noticed only one young woman
(20)who had been brought in. She looked rather pretty and
quite young, perhaps around 17, and very, very pretty.
Serb troops brought her and ordered her to recognise
some of us or, rather, to try to identify some of us.
And because it was dusk, they used searchlights or
(25)headlights. They would focus these lights in our faces
• Q.: And what occurred after this? • A.: After that a Serb soldier said, "Well, Turkish girl, aren't you pretty. Go and make us some coffee." And then he made a gesture with his hand (10)towards her face as if to caress her, and she stepped backward, and then he took her by her arm, or rather under her arm, and took her into the school. • Q.: And about what time was this? • A.: It was happening at dusk. Well, it was a (15)summer day and the night begins to fall sometime around 9.00. So I could say that it could have been 9.00, or perhaps slightly after 9.00. • Q.: And so were all 22 men assembled together with you at that time when she was taken into the (20)school?
• A.: Yes. All 22 men were still in front of the
school, together with me, that group of 22. And one of
the Serb soldiers approached us and notified us that we
would be searched. He said, "You balijas are really
(25)difficult to deal with. Perhaps some of you have might
• Q.: And can you tell the Court what the meaning of the term "balija" is? (10) • A.: I'm not familiar with that term. I know that some Serb soldiers used it, not all of them. I don't really know what it means. I heard it during the war for the first time. • Q.: And when were you taken in? When was the (15)group taken into the school?
• A.: The group was taken into the school sometime
in early evening, or rather when the night had already
fallen outside. They said, "You'll be cold outside.
You have to go in. There you will be in a classroom."
(20)And naturally it was meant cynically. First we entered
a classroom, the first one as you enter the building,
and then they seemed to change their minds and moved us
to the second classroom, next to the first one. What
we could see was that the classroom was empty.
(25)But let me say first: As we entered the
• Q.: And what happened after you were taken to the (10)second room, second classroom? • A.: When we entered the second classroom, so we had our hands tied behind our backs, and we were ordered to sit in a corner of that classroom. That was the left corner as you enter the classroom. (15)So it is the left-hand side bottom of the classroom. Men who came in sat down on the floor of that classroom, in that corner. It had a wooden floor, that classroom. I sat somewhere in front of that group. So we were all sitting on the floor. (20)The Serb soldiers left the classroom for a brief moment. Only one Serb soldier remained standing in the doorway, in the entrance to the classroom, sitting on a chair and with an automatic rifle in his lap. (25)
• Q.: Then what happened?
(10) • Q.: [Previous translation continues] ... for a minute. I'm sorry, but let me ask you a question, if I could. Were you able to notice any rank or any insignia that allowed you to tell what rank he was or what unit he was from, this person you identify as (15)Mr. [redacted] • A.: [redacted] No, I did not notice any insignia. Perhaps I forgot to say that there were no lights in the classroom, no electric lights, so that it was lit by a military headlight which was directed at (20)the ceiling, and it was run by the soldiers standing in the doorway. This headlight was turned towards the ceiling, so I really couldn't see any insignia on his uniform.
• Q.: Okay. You were telling us as he left what
(25)happened.
• Q.: Excuse me, witness. Excuse me. I understand this was a difficult time for you and the other men, (15)but is it fair to say that this was an awful scene where you were beaten and your group was beaten by these soldiers? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Had you seen this group of ten soldiers (20)before during the day or was this the first time that they'd showed up at the building?
• A.: No. They did not appear as I described it
when I described Mr.
[redacted] uniform. They were
wearing the same kind of uniform. It was a coverall
(25)uniform, and the Serb soldiers during the daytime did
• Q.: Could you tell from their accents where they were from, this group of soldiers that did the beating? (10) • A.: Judging by their speech, it was quite normal. They spoke like all the other people who lived in Srebrenica and around it. That is, it was quite a normal speech, and I cannot really say if they came from somewhere else. (15) • Q.: What happened after they finished beating all you people? • A.: I should say first that a Serb soldier, that is, one of their comrades came, "It's time," and when he said, "It's time," the other one asked him what time (20)was it, and he said it was 12.00 or, rather, 2400, 2400. So that was the 13th. Immediately after that, a minute or two later, they left the classroom, and I decided that they had to go somewhere.
• Q.: Had you, at this time, seen or heard from the
(25)woman that was taken in the classroom? Excuse me,
• A.: Before this group entered, I could hear this young woman's screams, and I think that he started to run across the passage. What was she crying out? "Let (5)me go. Don't touch me," or something like that. But that stopped abruptly, and after that I did not hear a single sound come from that young woman. • Q.: Okay. What happened after the soldiers that did the beating left? (10)
• A.: When those soldiers who beat us left the
classroom, several, I think some five or six soldiers,
entered, those who were next to the school during the
daytime. One of them turned to us and said, "Don't say
that they beat you," and it was said with a great deal
(15)of cynicism. I mean, the soldier could see people were
bleeding all over.
Then he said, "Right. Now you'll stand up
and stand against the wall." And he said it in a
normal voice, but because nobody could stand up or
(20)nobody did stand up, then he shouted, then he yelled it
at us.
And when I saw that several men from this
group had managed to stand up by the wall, then I tried
to do the same, because I was afraid I would be beaten
(25)once again. So I complied with the order, and I stood
• Q.: Excuse me, Witness D. Can I interrupt you for a minute? Can you tell us, the soldiers who got in (15)the truck, both in the cabin and the back, were those soldiers familiar to you? • A.: Those in the truck, no. One Serb soldier who boarded the cabin during the previous day, he had introduced himself as the commander of these men next (20)to the school, and allegedly he had also suffered as a prisoner of the BH Army. And he said, "Well, that is the least what you can expect too." That is what I remembered about that Serb soldier, and I remember him, and he boarded the cabin of the truck. (25)
• Q.: Okay. So did the truck drive on towards
• A.: Yes. They ordered us to look -- to keep our eyes on the floor, not to look around, and the only (5)thing I could see were the lights of a town; that is, rather, I felt that suddenly we found ourselves in a lit street. So we were already at the entry into Vlasenica when the bus turned left and took a macadam road. (10)And as we were riding, I kept thinking about how to try to jump off the truck, but I realised that that would be a very ugly leap which could also mean death. And I couldn't jump anyway, because my hands were tied at the back. But as I was leaning -- (15) • Q.: Let me interrupt you again. Sorry. Did you hear the soldiers on the truck communicate with each other about anything at some point on this drive?
• A.: At some point, when the truck turned left, it
reached a small stream, a brook, which was overgrown
(20)with ferns and other grass, and I couldn't really see
anything there. But it stopped there briefly, and a
Serb soldier who was in that truck, with his fist,
knocked on the roof of the cabin, that is, above the
driver, and said, "Not here. Take them up there, where
(25)they took people before." He said it very loudly and
• Q.: And did shortly after that the truck reach its destination and then stop? • A.: Yes, it did. (20) • Q.: And can you briefly describe the area that the truck stopped in?
• A.: There is a great deal that I learned later
on. As we were making our way through, I learned from
a man who was in our group, whom I had told that I had
(25)escaped the execution, and I described him the way I
• Q.: We don't need to know exactly where it was, but can you just describe: Was it dark out, light (10)out? What kind of an area was it that the truck stopped in.
• A.: Yes, I can do that. The truck stopped in an
elevation after it had moved uphill, and there was a
little clearing or a pasture there that was probably
(15)abandoned and was an overgrown meadow. I saw a partly
demolished house there. It was rather a not-finished
house; it had only one floor and the rest of the house
had collapsed. So the truck stopped near that house.
The engine was turned off but the lights, the
(20)headlights, remained lit.
So those soldiers, the ones who were on the
truck, got off the truck -- there were four of them --
and I was sitting in the left corner of the truck.
They opened the front part of the truck and three other
(25)soldiers got out of the cabin, the ones who had been
• Q.: And how did you feel then? (15)
• A.: It was very difficult for me at the time. I
think it was the worst moment and the most difficult
moment of my life. Or perhaps not the most difficult
one. The most difficult one was when my child was
taken away from me, and because of the fact that I
(20)couldn't utter a single word to my child as she was
being taken away.
But this time I felt that I was free, but I
also thought that they would find me and that their
threats would become true. I thought that there was no
(25)way for me to escape, that I would be captured again,
• Q.: Is it true that for the next approximately seven days you wandered around the area trying to find the free territory by yourself, living off the land? (10) • A.: Yes. I spent seven days wandering around. I had no food whatsoever. I lived on what I could find on the land -- a mushroom here and there, some apples, plums -- and I was very weak as a result of that. I still had my injury. My leg had been injured and the (15)wound became infected, so this was an additional problem. • Q.: Is it true that for another approximately seven days after that you were able to meet up with other Muslim men in a similar situation, and finally on (20)the last day you and a few others were able to escape to the asphalt road near Kladanj? Is that right?
• A.: Yes, that's right. A little more than seven
days, I think. On the 27th of July, to be more
precise, I managed to reach the free territory, and I
(25)ran into a group of people with whom I then continued
• Q.: Can you tell us the names of the people you knew that died that night outside that truck?
• A.: There were few people whom I knew. Those
were Rizo, who was a neighbour of mine, and he used to
(25)work for the Dutch Battalion as an electrician. I
(10) • Q.: And many others that you do not know. • A.: Yes, and many others whose names I don't know. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I have no further questions. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey. Mr. Petrusic or Mr. Visnjic, how long do you expect the cross-examination to take, if you are in a position to tell us? (20)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Yes, of course
Mr. President. I assume that it will take much longer
than the time that has remained today for us, but I
should like to take this opportunity to raise a
question of principle which is closely related to this
(25)situation.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, (15)Mr. Harmon. What is your position as regards this application by the Defence?
MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Mr. President
and Your Honours; good afternoon, counsel.
Mr. Visnjic and I talked about this earlier.
(20)In principle, we have no objection to that insofar as
it relates to substantive discussions relating to the
testimony. However, we need to occasionally see how
the witness is doing, how his transportation is being
arranged, and in the course of everyday contact with
(25)witnesses, we need to be able to have those minimal
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, the contact that you have mentioned as necessary contact after the witness has been sworn in, couldn't (10)that contact be made through the unit for protection of witnesses and victims? Is it not the task of that particular unit to assist the witness? MR. HARMON: It is, Mr. President. We also coordinate with the Victims and Witnesses Unit in (15)making those arrangements. So members of my staff will be, I'm quite sure, in the presence of and possibly communicate with these witnesses. That's a detail that I don't get involved with. However, I have an assistant who works closely with the Victims and (20)Witnesses Unit and does have contact with these people. I know that my assistant does not deal in substantive matters with these people.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Could I
please have a moment to consult.
JUDGE WALD: Mr. Visnjic, you've heard (5)Mr. Harmon's reply to your motion, and I think there's obviously agreement there should be no contact dealing with the substantive testimony once it has begun. Do you have objections, nonetheless, to his condition that sometimes it's necessary to confer with the witness (10)about the logistics, and would it satisfy you if in such case the Prosecution told you they were going to have contact about logistics so you would know about that, or be present, if you wanted? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Your Honour, if (15)the problem couldn't be resolved in any other way, or if the issues of logistics cannot be tackled in any other way, we agree to this type of communication, the way you have just described it. JUDGE WALD: Thank you. Mr. Harmon, how does (20)that sound to you, that if such an occasion arises that you need a logistic communication and coordination of the Victims and Witnesses Protection Unit, that you notify the Defence that you're going to have such a -- does that pose problems? (25)
MR. HARMON: It does not. We're satisfied
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, you may sit down. Thank you very much. Mr. Visnjic, before we make a ruling, I (5)should like to know whether you are requesting this because one other Chamber has made a ruling to that effect, or is it because you have some very specific reason for doing so? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, (10)we do not have any specific reasons for that. We just wanted the matter to be settled in a formal way, so that in future we do not encounter problems. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, then. (15)Mr. Harmon, you told us that you had already spoken amongst yourselves about that. Is it some kind of a prevention or have there been any problems?
MR. HARMON: I'm unaware of any problems
whatsoever. Mr. Visnjic approached me this morning,
(20)and my colleagues, and said that he was going to raise
the issue as a matter of principle with the Chamber,
and we said we understood that, and we agreed to the
issues that he was going to raise with the Chamber.
The only exception I would ask, at this
(25)point, should the Court rule that way, is that we be
(5)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I'm sorry,
I don't think I have understood properly your question,
Mr. Harmon. It's probably my fault. Could you please
be so kind and repeat what you have just said? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: I think the issue that I raised
with the Chamber can be resolved should the Court make
(15)the ruling that Mr. Visnjic has requested. This
witness, if he could be informed of the reasons why we
will not have contact with him after the court session
today, that would clarify the issues for this
particular witness, who finds himself in the middle of
(20)this debate.
The other point of clarification I would like
to make is I take it, under Mr. Visnjic's motion, the
Prosecutor's Office, at the conclusion of the
testimony, can have contact with the witness. We
(25)traditionally do that, just to say, "Thank you for
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. (5)Do you have something else, Mr. Visnjic? Anything else you wish to raise? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Your Honours, I should merely like to announce that on Monday, I shall have to raise two more issues. There is no time for (10)this now. So on Monday, in the beginning when we start, before the witness comes in, we shall need to raise some other issues, but it won't take more than half an hour. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another (15)issue, Mr. Harmon, is that we should like to know where are we as regards the next week.
MR. HARMON: Thus far, Mr. President, we are
close to the schedule that we had sketched out for
ourselves. Next week we have the testimonies of
(20)approximately 14 witnesses scheduled. We did not
anticipate today that this particular witness would
carry over, so that will cause our schedule to move,
advance a little bit, but we are, I'm told by the
people who are responsible for contacting and moving
(25)the witnesses here, that we have a full week next week
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And for the following weeks until the May the 2nd, that is, end of (5)April, could you tell us something about it? MR. HARMON: I can. We have sketched out a number of testimonies that carry us through April the 14th, and it is our anticipation that we will carry through. I haven't calculated the number of our total (10)number of witnesses who will have testified, but if you give me just a minute, I can make a fairly decent calculation at that by counting the number of witnesses on my planning through the 14th. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Right, but (15)the Chamber wishes to know -- because as you know, there is the question of filling in the two weeks which were formally assigned to another case. So you say that we shall have witnesses for the next week. That is so, Mr. Harmon? (20)
MR. HARMON: Yes, we have witnesses scheduled
through April the 14th, as the schedule initially
indicated, then there was a hiatus, and we have not
then planned for the following -- I think it was a
two-week session that was scheduled next. I'd have to
(25)look at my scheduled, but we have not planned for the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Even if you do not have witnesses envisaged for those weeks, we shall have enough witnesses until the 14th, (5)and you will be able also to think about planning for the next period, if I understand you well. MR. HARMON: That's correct.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
You may be seated, Mr. Harmon. Thank you very much.
(10)As for the motion of the Defence and the
Prosecution, the Chamber will make an oral decision on
Monday. I should like to remind you that we shall be
back here next Monday at 9.30, and we shall then have
the opportunity to hear the issues which the Defence
(15)wishes to raise.
At present, I turn to the witness to tell him
that we have indeed done all that we could to set you
free today. Unfortunately, we have not managed to do
that, and you will have to spend your weekend here and
(20)to continue giving your evidence next Monday.
I believe there are no further issues. I
merely need to tell you that next week Judge Wald will
not be with us for three days of the next week so that
the Chamber will sit in two. Judge Riad and myself
(25)will be sitting. We already know the conditions, which
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.37 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of March, 2000 (10)at 9.30 a.m. |
