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(1)Monday, 27 March 2000 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to our sound engineers, the interpreters; I hope you hear me. Good morning to counsel for the Prosecution and for the Defence, to General Krstic. We are here for the (10)hearing in the case of General Krstic. I believe there were two points which the Defence wished to raise last week. Are you ready now, Mr. Visnjic, to do so?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Yes,
(15)Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me. I think we have a problem here. I am not getting the French interpretation. Yes, I seem to be on the right (20)channel. Now it's all right. Now it is all right. Very well. We always have problems of communication, don't we? Mr. Visnjic, I believe we have established contact now. You may continue. (25)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Good morning,
(10) THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Yes, we are now in public session. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. We are in a public session, but we shall now move to a closed session so that Mr. Visnjic could raise these (15)issues. Would there be any interest in addressing these questions in a public session, Mr. Visnjic? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President. These are technical issues, more or less, but in view of the nature of the problem, I (20)believe it will be more advisable if we closed it to the public.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
If there are reasons to go into a closed session, then
we shall do so.
THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] In order to have face distortion, as requested by the witness, we are going to keep the public character of the hearing only through the audio transmission, and it is possible (20)to follow the proceedings only in the room which is situated next to the press office. This is a public hearing; however, there will be nobody -- there will be no public in the small room here on my right-hand side. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good (5)morning, Witness D. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I can, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I hope that you've had a nice weekend here in The Hague. (10) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Well, it was not exactly nice, but it was okay. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Well, very well, then. In any case, we are going to do our best to have you feel comfortable here. Let me just remind (15)you that you are still under oath. You have requested certain protective measures, and they will be applied. There will be nobody in the public gallery in this courtroom, and the public will be able to follow the proceedings in one other room here at the Tribunal. (20)Witness D, you will now continue with giving answers to the counsel for the Defence, Mr. Visnjic. WITNESS: WITNESS D [Resumed] • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: • Q.: Good morning, Witness D? (25)
• A.: Good morning.
• A.: In July 1995, because I had been wounded, I (5)didn't have any particular occupation. I was at home, and I was receiving treatment. • Q.: At that time, Witness D, were you a member of the BH army? • A.: No, not at that time. (10) • Q.: Let me go back to the 11th of July, 1995. You testified that on that day, you had left Srebrenica for Potocari; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you please describe your departure from (15)Srebrenica to Potocari to the Chamber? • A.: I left on foot. My house was not very far from Potocari, and I left on foot together with my wife and my child. • Q.: Were there many people on the road on that (20)day, going from Srebrenica to Potocari? • A.: Yes, the road was crowded with people, including women and children.
• Q.: Could you perhaps tell us whether this column
of people going towards Potocari was exposed to any
(25)shelling?
• Q.: You testified during your direct examination that on the 12th of July, in the factory where you had found accommodation, some Serb soldiers appeared; is (10)that correct? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: You told us that they were dressed in a different fashion. • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: And you also said that they spoke with a different accent? • A.: Yes. This is something that I observed personally. • Q.: You said that they sounded as if they were (20)from Montenegro. • A.: Yes. I'm familiar with the various accents from the former Yugoslavia because I used to travel a lot. I knew accents from Macedonia, Montenegro, and so on, and I had many friends all around the country. (25)
• Q.: Was the dialect in question the Ijekavica
• A.: Well, sir, I'm sure you're familiar with this special accent that is used in Montenegro. There is something very particular about it, and people from (5)that area can understand each other perfectly, and it is an easily recognisable accent. • Q.: Can you distinguish between the two variants of the language, between Ijekavica and Ekavica. • A.: Yes, I can. I should perhaps emphasise that (10)they spoke with the so-called Ekavica. But in addition to that, there were some -- there was something particular which indicated to me that those people were from Montenegro. • Q.: I should like to ask you one more question. (15)Before you testified here, before this Chamber, you gave a number of statements, including the statement that you gave to the police, or rather to the MUP. • A.: Yes. • Q.: In your statement before this Chamber, the (20)one that you gave on Friday, you mentioned a person by the name of Garic, and some sabotage activity he had been involved with. • A.: Yes, that is correct.
• Q.: I have noticed that you did not mention this
(25)particular event in your previous statements. Could
• A.: Could you please clarify your question? I don't think I mentioned Garic -- • Q.: I'm referring to the incident in the tunnel. (5) • A.: Well, it is normal for the statement to contain a number of details, and the reason why I didn't mention it before -- well, there's nothing special. I did have a conversation with a man by the name of Spomenko, and he wanted to tell me about this (10)particular action. He wanted, actually, me to confirm what he was saying, and his name was not Spomenko, but Stanimir. He wanted me to tell him about that particular action, he insisted on it, so I told him about it. And, indeed, this action had taken place. (15)Everybody knew about it. You can ask anyone in Srebrenica, and they will all confirm you that. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, that concludes my cross-examination. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] (20)Mr. McCloskey, do you have any additional questions? MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions for the witness? JUDGE RIAD: Just one (25)
• QUESTIONED by the Court:
• A.: Good morning, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: I would just like to understand more clearly how you detected these people, the (5)soldiers which you mentioned spoke the Ekavica dialect, and you were able to conclude that they came from Montenegro. Now, in Bosnia, don't you speak different dialects, or is it usually that nobody speaks another dialect from other parts of the former Yugoslavia? (10) • A.: I will try to explain this to you, Your Honour, and I will try to be brief. As I have just told you, I used to travel a lot throughout the former Yugoslavia, and I had a number of friends everywhere. I had an encounter with those soldiers; they wanted to (15)see my ID; they wanted to know where I had been wounded, and I told them that I had been wounded before. So that conversation lasted for a while, several minutes probably, and I could tell that they were speaking the Ekavica dialect. This dialect can be (20)spoken by people in Bosnia and in Serbia, of course; however, there is something particular about that kind of accent when it's coming from a Montenegro, and that's how I managed to detect that. My conclusion was that the soldiers were from Montenegro. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Now, if I remember rightly, your
• A.: Yes. Yes, you are right, Your Honour. They had camouflage uniforms, that is, multi-coloured uniforms, but they were somehow better quality. You can distinguish between uniforms in terms of quality. (10)Serbian soldiers whom we could see in the area, that is, in the vicinity of the lines around Srebrenica, had uniforms of somewhat worse quality, and these other soldiers had better uniforms, they looked better. Let me try to explain. You have various (15)types of camouflage uniforms, depending on the army, that is, the country the soldiers in question are coming from, and people tend to compare uniforms. And I thought that their uniforms were of a somewhat better quality. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Only the quality, or was it the badge too or any sign that showed that they belonged to the army of Serbia, for instance?
• A.: I did not notice the insignia. Probably
because of my fear, I didn't observe carefully. It was
(25)just a general impression. I did not pay particular
JUDGE RIAD: And their accent. (5) • A.: Yes, the accent as well, this specific kind of speech. JUDGE RIAD: Also in your testimony last Friday, I think, you spoke of this young, beautiful girl who -- there was a whole thing, but at the end, (10)she was taken away, and you heard screams. Did you know after that what happened to this girl? Did she come back? Did she relate anything? Was she -- did she survive? • A.: I couldn't learn anything on that day, (15)neither could I do so on the following days, but when I reached the free territory in Kladanj, the BH army wanted to take my statement, they wanted to know what I had been through. So after I had given my statement and after I had mentioned the young woman in my (20)statement, they told me that they knew about the girl and that she was alive, and they told me that she had been released. JUDGE RIAD: Did she confess -- did she say anything about what happened to her? (25)
• A.: I wouldn't know anything else. I don't know
JUDGE RIAD: Just a last question. I understood, perhaps rightly, that you were wounded, and (5)for this purpose, perhaps you did not continue the war; is that right? When were you wounded? • A.: I was wounded at the very beginning of the war. I had sustained serious injuries, and the treatment was quite difficult. You probably know that (10)there were no medicines in Srebrenica at the time. The wound would often get infected, and I had a lot of problems with it. JUDGE RIAD: And then you completely left any military activity. (15) • A.: Yes, completely. There were a number of soldiers who were healthy, but they left the army as well because of the demilitarisation. There was no need for them. And I was not capable to join anyway. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness D. (20) • A.: Thank you, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: Judge Wald, please.
JUDGE WALD: Witness D, I have three
questions.
Number 1, when you were taken off the bus in
(25)Luka, did anybody ask you about whether you were
• A.: No. Nobody asked me that question. I was simply pulled back by the shoulder and ordered to give my child to my wife. I was carrying my daughter, but I (5)had to follow the soldier who had ordered me to give her to my wife. JUDGE WALD: My second question is you describe the different dialect and uniforms of the soldiers who were around the factory in Potocari. Was (10)that true of all the soldiers, or were there some local soldiers? Were all the soldiers that you were able to come into contact with around Potocari of this different variety of uniform and dialect? • A.: I can say that that was the only group of (15)Serbian soldiers with whom I had any contact. I could only observe others, and I didn't have any contact with other soldiers. So I cannot say anything as to their belonging to any particular group. JUDGE WALD: Just to make sure I understand. (20)You may have seen other soldiers, but you weren't close enough to them to know what they were, or you didn't see any soldiers at all that were not of the Montenegrin variety?
• A.: I saw a couple of those soldiers, those who
(25)had this other type of uniform which I mentioned, and I
JUDGE WALD: My last question is, when you were taken off the bus in Luka and taken to the school (10)with 22 other men, and later taken to the field for execution, did you have an opportunity to find out where those other men had come from? In other words, had they been taken off buses, or had they been captured or surrendered from the column that was (15)marching toward Tuzla? The other men that were with you in the field and in the school. • A.: Yes, I understand your question, Your Honour. I was able to find out, yes. Serb soldiers talked to a number of people. Fuad and Alija, whose (20)names I mentioned, for example, had set out in the direction of the wood, so they were captured on the way through the woods, whereas other people, they were all from Potocari.
JUDGE WALD: So they came from both people
(25)who had stayed in Potocari and people who had gone off
• A.: [No audible response] JUDGE WALD: Thank you, Witness D. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness D, (5)you have heard a number of questions from everybody here, from the Prosecution, from the Defence, from the Judges. Is there anything else you wish to say to the Chamber, something you haven't yet said? • A.: Your Honour, I have so many things to say, to (10)talk about, but I don't know, I don't think there is anything in particular that I should like to add to my statement. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness D, let me thank you on behalf of the Chamber for coming (15)here to testify, to testify about the suffering and the ordeal you have been through. I do hope that you will be able to have a number of nice weekends once you come back to your country. Thank you once again for coming here to testify, and the usher will now help you out of (20)the courtroom.
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Thank you very
much, Your Honours. I was really delighted to testify
here, and I was impressed by the attitude of all of the
participants here in the courtroom. Thank you very
(25)much.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, the next witness, is he a protected witness? No. But perhaps this would be a convenient time to make the (5)break. So do not call him in yet. I'm just wondering if -- MR. HARMON: I'm informed by Mr. McCloskey, who will lead the next witness, that he is a protected witness. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. What kind of protection does he seek? MR. McCLOSKEY: Face distortion and no name. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And why is he seeking protection, Mr. McCloskey? (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: He told me that his -- he's got a large family that would like to move back to the area some day and that he's concerned about his family and the name. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Does (20)the Defence agree with the protective measures for the witness? Mr. Petrusic?
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] In principle,
we do agree in the case of protective measures, but we
do agree, we have no objection against protective
(25)measures here, except that now it occurs to me perhaps
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Will, then, the counsel for the Prosecution, bear this in (10)mind, and keep in contact with the Defence. We shall now make a 20-minute break, and in order to expedite matters, I should like to ask Mr. Dubuisson to bring in the witness before the Judges have entered the courtroom. A 20-minute break. (15) --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
--- On resuming at 10.59 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness E, (20)can you hear me? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I do.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I'm sorry.
Witness E, we shall now go into closed session so that
we can regulate the question of identity of the
(25)witness.
THE REGISTRAR:
[Int.] Yes, we are
in closed session.
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson. Witness E, thank you for coming here. As you know, we have taken all the measures to protect you. We shall not be pronouncing your name and we shall call (15)you Witness E. Please make yourself comfortable. Now, Witness E, you will answer questions which the Prosecutor, Mr. McCloskey, will put to you. Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. (20)
WITNESS: WITNESS E • EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: • Q.: Witness E, how are you this morning? • A.: Fine. Fine, thank you. (25)
• Q.: Are you a little bit nervous?
• Q.: I'll be asking you some questions, and so will the Defence and so will the Court, and we shouldn't be here too long. (5) • A.: Right. • Q.: Can you tell us where you were born? • A.: In Subin. • Q.: And when were you born? What's your date of birth? (10) • A.: [redacted] • Q.: And was Subin in the Srebrenica opstina? • A.: It is. • Q.: And did you grow up around there? • A.: I did. (15) • Q.: And what was your occupation? • A.: [redacted] • Q.: Did you do woodcutting? • A.: Yes, in the woods. • Q.: Where did you live on July 11th, the day that (20)Srebrenica fell to the Bosnian Serb army? • A.: In Srebrenica. • Q.: Who you did you live with?
• A.: With my family;
[redacted] (25)
• Q.: What did you do on July 11th?
• Q.: And then where did you go? • A.: And from there, we headed for Potocari. (5)
• Q.: And was that with your group,
[redacted] • A.: Yes. • Q.: And what about your son? • A.: He stayed behind in Srebrenica, and I don't (10)know where he went. • Q.: What were the ages of your daughters? Just roughly what was the age range of your daughters?
• A.:
[redacted] • Q.: How about your grandchildren? About how old were they? • A.: The eldest one was three years old. • Q.: When you got to Potocari, where did you go? (20) • A.: We went to the hangar. • Q.: Which one of the hangars did you go to? • A.: The one that belonged to Transport, for car/truck washing, and things like that.
• Q.: Was that the bus company Transport or the
(25)Express Bus Compound?
• Q.: And did you spend the night there? • A.: We did, on the 11th. • Q.: On the 12th, what did you do, the next day? (5) • A.: On the 12th, I went down from the place where they cleaned and washed buses and cars. There were about 500 of us in that hangar, and until sometime, 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon, we -- • Q.: Did you see Serb soldiers at any time while (10)you were in that hangar? • A.: Yes. What's his name? Milisav Gavric entered from the opposite side into the hangar. And Ibran Mustafic and Hamid, he went to them and tapped them on their shoulder, and they talked. I don't know (15)what they talked about really. And then they left. • Q.: Now, how did you know Milisav Gavric? • A.: Milisav Gavric was with the police, and he came for some training with the forestry company before he changed his mind and went to work for the police. (20) • Q.: So he worked for the police before the war; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: That day that you saw him in the hangar, can you describe what he was wearing? (25)
• A.: He had something like blue, like SMB, I
• Q.: Okay. Did you see any other Bosnian Serbs come into the hangar besides Milisav Gavric that day? (5) • A.: No, I did not see anyone come in or leave the hangar. When Milisav left, when he was gone, then after some time ten minutes, he came back, Milisav Gavric and Mladic came, and they took Ibran and Hamid and took them away. (10) • Q.: And then what did you do? • A.: I went to the door straight away. People in the hangar were puzzled. And we came out, and when I came to the stairs, then I saw some Serb troops, some seven or eight soldiers. And we crossed the bridge and (15)boarded old buses or trucks -- I mean trailers, and that is where I spent the night with my family. • Q.: Why did you take your family to these old trailers or buses? • A.: Well, just in case, you know, all sorts of (20)things happen. If it rained, that was one thing. Secondly, to shelter my family if anything happened. • Q.: Why did you want them out of that hangar? • A.: Well, because we were afraid. We didn't know what might come to pass that night. (25)
• Q.: Were these old buses that you're talking
• A.: No. No, they were broken buses, derelict, discarded. • Q.: Did you have the whole family, all your (5)daughters and your grandchildren and your wife, with you in one of those structures? • A.: Yes, all of us, all of us in that ancient truck trailer. Everybody was in there. • Q.: Where was this truck trailer in relation to (10)the bus hangar? • A.: Well, right as you come out from the hangar and cross the bridge, closer to the asphalt, that's where it was. • Q.: So it was between the asphalt road and the (15)bus hangar? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What was that night like? Can you describe that night in that structure? • A.: Oh, yes, how we spent the night, I can tell (20)you. It was so horrible that you couldn't -- you couldn't really go down on the ground because of the screams, because of the noise, because of the havoc. You couldn't really have a moment's peace from fear and everything. (25)
• Q.: What did you do when morning came?
• Q.: Can you tell us about how far away this little creek was from where you were in the -- where you'd spent the night in this structure? (15) • A.: About ten metres, not more than that. • Q.: And when you came back and found your family, what did you do? • A.: The children and the wife, that is, the family of mine, I told them to get ready and go to the (20)asphalt and then to go on to the roadblock, to the ramp, and see how far we can get. • Q.: And did you do that?
• A.: Yes, I did that. We started at 6.00 and we
came out onto the asphalt, and until 9.15, we could not
(25)reach the ramp. At quarter past nine, we arrived at
• Q.: Was the ramp that you described near where people were getting on the buses? • A.: Yes, it was right up there, and to the right (5)where buses and trucks to transport people, such as population and the like. • Q.: What happened when you got your family to that area? • A.: When I arrived at the ramp, there were two (10)Serb soldiers and to answer, next to the APCs where the rope was tied. And they opened it. I passed, we passed, and my neighbour [redacted] followed but he was stopped right there, he was separated, and I went through. (15) • Q.: Who separated him? • A.: A Serb soldier. • Q.: Was your brother anywhere near the vicinity at the time? • A.: Right exactly behind [redacted] is where he was, (20)and he was also separated there. • Q.: Have you seen your neighbour [redacted] or your brother since that day? • A.: Never again. • Q.: And then what happened? (25)
• A.: And from there I started towards the buses.
• Q.: How did you know Sreten?
• A.: Oh, well, I knew Sreten
[redacted] • Q.: About how old was Sreten at the time? • A.: About 40. • Q.: And what was Sreten's father's name? (20) • A.: Ilija. • Q.: And where was Ilija known to be from? • A.: I did not see Ilija there. • Q.: I understand that. But can you just tell me, if you know, where Ilija was from? (25)
• A.: From Spat.
• A.: Well, he had a long moustache hanging down. He was paying to have a moustache -- to wear a (5)moustache like this. So one could always recognise him. Whoever knew him could recognise him anywhere. • Q.: And do you know Sreten's last name now? • A.: I don't remember. I can't remember. I've forgotten that. I knew that but I've forgotten that. (10) • Q.: And what was Sreten wearing at the time you saw him by the buses? • A.: A military uniform. • Q.: And could you tell what he was doing? • A.: He was just standing and talking to his -- to (15)other people. • Q.: These other people you described, were they in uniform also? • A.: In uniforms also, and they were talking. For instance, I passed by as they were talking. (20) • Q.: And what did you do as you passed by?
• A.: I got to the bus, I went onto the bus, and I
sat there. When a young man appeared and he wanted to
board the bus, and the driver wouldn't open the door to
him, indicating with his hand to go to the left, to
(25)where the driver's window is. And this man went to the
(5) • Q.: What was Sreten's son wearing? • A.: A uniform also. • Q.: Okay. And then what happened? • A.: And then we waited for the buses. The buses switched on but we did not start, but after about half (10)an hour, we started to Bratunac. • Q.: Were there any other men on your bus? • A.: Yes, there were seven others. I was the eighth. • Q.: Do you know about how old the other seven (15)were? • A.: Well, they were all my senior. • Q.: And where did the bus go when it finally left? • A.: It started towards Bratunac. (20) • Q.: And where did it go after Bratunac? • A.: And then on to Kravica, Glogova, Kravica. • Q.: And did you see anything along the way in this area? • A.: No, nothing until we reached Kravica. (25)
• Q.: Then what did you see at Kravica?
(10) • Q.: Okay. If I can interrupt you for one moment. MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, the witness said that he saw "our men with their hands behind their neck," and he put his hands behind his neck briefly, as (15)we can all imagine. • Q.: Now, are you Muslim by faith? • A.: Yes. • Q.: When you refer to "our men," you're referring to Muslim men? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: About how many Muslim men did you see with their hands behind their necks? • A.: There must have been about 100, if not more than that. (25)
• Q.: What were they doing?
• Q.: Were they walking or were they sitting, or how did you actually see them? (5) • A.: They were walking towards the bus. • Q.: And then what happened? • A.: Then we passed by those men, they stayed behind, and then some ten metres on, to the right, there were about 20 or 30 men standing and some three (10)or four Serb soldiers standing by them. And -- • Q.: So those 20 or 30 men you saw standing, were those Muslim men? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Okay. And then what else did you see? (15) • A.: And I only saw the armament, I saw a tank and three armoured vehicles, which were covered there. I couldn't really see which ones were they. And on our way between Kravica and Konjevic Polje, I saw yet another man of ours dead, next to the asphalt on the (20)left-hand side, and then I saw nothing else until we reached Konjevic Polje. • Q.: When you reached the intersection near Konjevic Polje, which way did the bus turn? • A.: Left. (25)
• Q.: Towards -- what villages are in that
• A.: Towards Nova Kasaba, that's where we went. And when I looked to my left, above Taran's cafe, in his meadow, there were 200 or 300 of our men lying (5)down, and there were about 10, or maybe 20 Serb soldiers walking around them. • Q.: About how long in distance after you turned left towards Nova Kasaba did you see -- JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. These men lying (10)down. He means dead or lying down? What is the meaning of "lying down"? MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Could you clarify your answer for the Judge? • A.: Alive. Alive. They waved at us. They were (15)alive. • Q.: And about how far after you turned left at the intersection did you see these men in this meadow? • A.: Well, about ten metres from Taran's cafe, they were right there, on the left-hand side. (20) • Q.: Okay. And where did you go after that? • A.: Then we headed for Nova Kasaba and Milici and Vlasenica, and we arrived in Tisca and got off the bus.
• Q.: And then did you and your family walk to
(25)Kladanj?
• Q.: Thank you. MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey. Witness E, you are now going to be asked questions that will be put to you by the Defence. I think that it is going to be Mr. Visnjic who will (10)cross-examine you. Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: • Q.: Good morning, Witness E. • A.: Good morning. (15) • Q.: In your statement, you said that you had arrived in Srebrenica on the 11th of July. • A.: I left Srebrenica for Potocari on the 11th of July. • Q.: Could you please be more precise and tell us (20)what exactly was happening on that first night in Potocari, between the 11th and the 12th? Were there any specific events? • A.: No, there were no special events, as far as I can remember. (25)
• Q.: You said that on the 11th of July, your son
• A.: No. • Q.: Do you know where he went? • A.: I don't know. He simply stayed behind, and I (5)don't know what happened with him later on. • Q.: Witness E, you described an event involving Gavric and Mladic. They came to the hangar, and they were looking for Ibrahim Mustafic. Who is Ibrahim Mustafic? (10) • A.: He is a man from Potocari. He's a local person, and I didn't know anything else about him. • Q.: Were Gavric and Mladic alone, or was there anyone else with them when they came to get Mustafic? • A.: There were two soldiers standing on the (15)stairs at the moment they came in, and later on those two soldiers went with them. But I don't know who they were. • Q.: How far was that stairway from the spot where Ibran was? (20) • A.: Well, the stairs were at the entrance of the hangar. There was a corridor without any opening, but I couldn't tell you exactly how far it was from us. • Q.: More than 20 metres perhaps?
• A.: Well, yes, around 20 metres. Between 20 and
(25)25 metres.
• A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: Did Mladic say anything when they came to get (5)Ibrahim Mustafic? • A.: I didn't hear anything. Whether he told him something or not, I couldn't -- I couldn't exactly tell you. • Q.: You said that something had happened on the (10)night between the 12th and the 13th of July, and I should like to ask you a question about that. You said you had seen 11 bodies in the water; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that is correct. I'm not saying (15)anything I'm not sure about. • Q.: Could you be more specific as to the time when you saw that? • A.: It was about 5.30 a.m. when I saw them. • Q.: Did you recognise any of them? (20)
• A.: I could only recognise my neighbour,
[redacted] • Q.: Could you conclude anything about the cause of their deaths?
• A.: No, I couldn't. I didn't see who had killed
(25)them, so I couldn't tell you anything about the cause
• Q.: Witness E, you gave statements to the Tribunal and to the Commission for Gathering Facts on War Crimes in the Territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina on a (5)previous occasion. Do you remember anything about that? • A.: Yes, I do. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] If I could please show the statement to the witness, the statement (10)he gave on a previous occasion. This is the statement given by the witness to the State Commission for Gathering Facts on War Crimes. MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me. This witness will not be able to read, so it may be best if you read (15)particular portions to him. He apparently left his glasses back at home. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Exhibit D3. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] As far as I understood, Mr. McCloskey, the witness cannot read. So (20)what is actually the case? Is it because he cannot read at the moment, or is it because he doesn't read at all? MR. McCLOSKEY: I know he cannot read because he cannot see very well. He has told me he can read. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well,
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] The statement (5)is a handwritten document, Mr. President. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] I'm sorry to interrupt you, but let me please draw your attention to the confidential character of the document, which contains the name of the witness as well. So we should (10)avoid reading any identifying elements of this witness, or perhaps we could go into a private session for that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Dubuisson. (15)In this statement, Mr. Visnjic, are you going to mention the name of the witness or not? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Well, the name is mentioned in this statement, but it's not mentioned in the paragraph I'm about to read. His name is not (20)contained in this particular paragraph. However, the fact that the statement was given by him is stated in this statement. His name is on the statement but not in the relevant paragraph.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] If I'm
(25)right, this means that even if the statement contains
THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Yes, you're right, Your Honour. I suppose that Mr. Visnjic will (5)ask for this document to be filed as a confidential document. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, then. Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson. You may continue, Mr. Visnjic. (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Your Honour.
• Q.: I'm interested in page 4 of the
Serbo-Croatian version of the statement, that is, the
last portion of the paragraph, last portion of the
(15)text, on page 3 in the English version.
The text is as follows: Once again, I will
be reading from the fourth line of page 4 of the
Serbo-Croatian text.
"Sreten is about 30 years old. His cousin
(20)is a little younger. He slit the throats of 13 people
in Tengara and threw them in the Drina River. I saw
them slaughter 11 people with my own eyes, and I saw
Sreten. They were slaughtering people who were
standing up. They just passed by and slit their
(25)throats with a knife. There were three more
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, this is a statement which this witness gave on the 19th -- that is, on the 17th of August, 1995, (10)immediately after the relevant events. • Q.: Witness E, could you please tell me whether the text that I have just read to you is correct or not? • A.: No, sir. I never gave such a statement. I (15)know what I said, and I'm giving the same testimony here today. I cannot confirm that statement as my own. • Q.: Witness E, from what the Prosecutor has told us, I can conclude that you have some trouble with your (20)sight. • A.: Yes, I do. I can't see very well. I have had this problem for two or three years now. • Q.: Could you please tell me when the situation in respect of your sight worsened? (25)
• A.: Two or three years ago.
• A.: Yes, I could. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, (5)we are in a situation here. I cannot show him his signature, the one that is on this particular statement, and I cannot ask him questions about it. I cannot find out whether this, indeed, is his signature because he doesn't have glasses. However, I should (10)perhaps ask Witness E whether he remembers giving this statement to the said State Commission. • A.: I don't remember ever giving such a statement. As so what is contained in there, I don't know. (15) • Q.: Witness E, do you remember how many statements you have given so far? • A.: I remember giving a statement on two occasions. • Q.: Do you remember when you gave the first one? (20) • A.: No, I don't remember that. • Q.: Do you remember who you gave this statement to? • A.: No, I don't.
• Q.: Witness E, at the end of this particular
(25)statement, one can see the following words: "Statement
• A.: Well, I'm telling you -- • Q.: This statement was given on 17th of August, (5)1995. • A.: In 1995, sir, I could see. My sight got worse within the past two or three years. • Q.: Witness E, you told us you had worked as a woodcutter? (10) • A.: Yes, I had. • Q.: Does it mean that you spent a great deal of time in nature, in the woods? • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: Woodcutters usually work during summertime. (15) • A.: I don't understand your question. • Q.: When is the busiest period of the year for you as a woodcutter? • A.: Well, we cut wood both in winter time and summer time. The season was always good. (20) • Q.: Will you tell me about the time of the day when it dawns in your country? • A.: Well, I forgot about that. I don't know. • Q.: Witness E, do you remember giving a statement to the investigator of the Tribunal in October 1998? (25)
• A.: No. No, I don't remember. I don't remember
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Let me introduce this. This is a statement given by the witness to the investigators of the Tribunal in October (5)1998. This is the English version. I apologise to the B/C/S booth, I don't have that one, but I shall try to be as brief as possible. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] This is marked as D4. (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: I'm referring to the same event; that is, the one you described to this Chamber when you saw 11 bodies in the water, six women and five men, because we're in the same situation as with the previous (15)statement. I shall read the relevant portion to you. "Early in the morning, around 3.00 in the morning, I went over to the creek to urinate and I counted 11 bodies, six women and five men, lying in the creek. I recognised [redacted] among them. All of them had (20)been stabbed at the side of their throat. Their throats were not cut. I have never told [redacted] family that I saw him there." Witness E, is this correct, what I have just read out? (25)
• A.: I cannot confirm anything as to the issue
• Q.: Is it true that you went to the creek to urinate around 3.00 in the morning? (5) • A.: No, I told you when I went to urinate. I don't know about this statement. I don't know who wrote this statement. • Q.: Witness E, did you sign this statement that was taken on the 10th of October, 1998? (10) • A.: I don't know. I don't remember that. • Q.: Witness E, could you be more specific about your problems with your sight? Is it that you cannot see very well? • A.: I cannot see very well, that is the case. It (15)is all foggy in front of my eyes. It's very difficult for me to make out a silhouette in front of me. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Your Honour, this concludes my cross-examination. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] (20)Mr. McCloskey, any re-examination? MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge Fouad Riad. • QUESTIONED by the Court: (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness E.
JUDGE RIAD: Can you see me? • A.: I can hardly see you. I mean, it's very difficult for me to see you. (5) JUDGE RIAD: When did you start having these problems of not seeing? Do you remember? • A.: Well, during the past two years, I started having this problem. There are always tears in my eyes, and I have problems with my sight. I can't see (10)very well now. JUDGE RIAD: Was it the result of any accident or disease? Do you remember? • A.: No, it's not a disease. I connect this problem with all the psychological problems that I (15)had. JUDGE RIAD: Do you also have memory problems? • A.: Yes. Yes, I do. I often have headaches and I have memory problems. It's very difficult for me to (20)remember things. JUDGE RIAD: But you remember the certain things which you told us; is that correct?
• A.: Well, these are the things that I remember
very well, but if you ask me about things happening
(25)now, sometimes I tend to forget them within two or
JUDGE RIAD: Yes. For instance, you forgot that you signed the statement which you gave -- which apparently you gave to the investigators of this (5)Tribunal. You forgot that completely. • A.: Yes, I have. JUDGE RIAD: And you forgot what was in it too, because usually you meet the investigators. Did you also forget meeting them? I beg your pardon? You (10)forgot meeting the investigators and telling them anything? • A.: You mean here, after I've arrived here? JUDGE RIAD: No. On 10 October 1998, in 1998, two years ago. (15) • A.: No. No, I don't remember. I don't remember being with an investigator.
JUDGE RIAD: Anyhow, in the statement which
you don't remember, you said partly the same thing you
said today, that you saw down the stream 11 dead
(20)persons, but in the statement, you were more explicit,
you said there were six women and five men, stabbed at
the side of the throat. So you had more details. But
the fact remains that you mentioned the same number,
which is 11 dead persons. Do you remember that
(25)clearly, that there were 11 dead persons?
JUDGE RIAD: Well, then, the statement was not wrong, because you are repeating it today. And (5)were they also stabbed in the side of the neck? • A.: Yes, they were. In the neck, that's where they were stabbed. I know about that, I do remember that. JUDGE RIAD: You do remember that. And what (10)kind of women were they? Were they dressed in uniform, in military uniform, or were they just housewives? • A.: Housewives. Housewives. Not a single one of them wore a uniform. JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned also that you (15)saw 100 persons or more with their hands tied behind their neck, walking to the bus. Do you remember that? • A.: Yes, I remember that. I remember seeing that. JUDGE RIAD: And did you know anybody among (20)them? • A.: No, I couldn't recognise anyone because, you know, the bus was moving and I had no time to recognise anyone. I was on the bus and I just couldn't recognise people. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Just something in passing. You
(5) • A.: No, no, I didn't hear or see anything. JUDGE RIAD: And your brother was a military man, and your neighbour [redacted], were they fighting with the BiH? • A.: No, no, they were not fighting. My brother (10)was retired, and this neighbour of mine also worked in the same company where I worked, for the forestry. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Riad. (15)Judge Wald. JUDGE WALD: I have just one question, Witness E. When Milisav Gavric gave into the hangar with General Mladic, was he wearing some kind of uniform? Gavric, was Gavric -- (20) • A.: Gavric, I told you, he had a uniform, but I couldn't be more specific. It was blue or olive drab in colour. I couldn't tell you exactly. And Mladic, he was wearing civilian clothing.
JUDGE WALD: Mladic was wearing civilian.
(25)And Gavric, you testified, I believe, was from around
• A.: Yes. Yes, I knew him. I told you that he was doing his internship in my company. And then after (5)that, he went to school, and later on he joined the police. JUDGE WALD: And Srebrenica. • A.: I don't know where Gavric is from. I don't know where he was born. (10) JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness E, do you remember how many times you gave a statement? • A.: I believe I gave a statement on two occasions. This is my recollection of the things. Two (15)times. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you remember who you gave these statements to? • A.: Well, that, I don't remember. I forgot. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness E, (20)can you read and write? • A.: Well, I could write some Cyrillic script, but the thing is, I cannot see very well.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] When you
were giving your statements, do you remember whether
(25)you signed them or not?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you (5)remember where exactly you gave those statements? • A.: Once, I believe that I gave a statement in Zivinice, and the other one I think I gave it in Tuzla, if my memory serves me right. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness E, (10)as regards the statement that you gave in Tuzla, do you remember more or less the time when you gave that particular statement? • A.: No. No, I cannot remember the time. I cannot remember that. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, but perhaps you remember you were in Tuzla; right? • A.: Yes, I was. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But how long had you been there? (20) • A.: You mean after I had arrived? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. • A.: I don't know. I don't remember that.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You told us
that you had lived in Srebrenica, that you were there
(25)during the fall of Srebrenica.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. So how did you reach Tuzla? • A.: By bus. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So what I would like to know is how much time had elapsed between your arrival in Tuzla and the time when you gave the statement? • A.: No, I forgot. I couldn't tell you that. I (10)don't know how much time had elapsed between my arrival from Srebrenica and my giving that statement. I couldn't tell you that, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness E, let me try to help you. Was it one day, one month, one (15)year after your arrival? • A.: Well, more than a month. Perhaps a year since I arrived. But apart from that, I don't remember. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another (20)question, Witness E. Were you alone or were you in the company of somebody when you gave the statement? • A.: I was alone. I remember that. I remember I was all by myself when I made the statement.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] And the
(25)authorities, the body that took your statement, was it
• A.: There was one person who was there when they took my statement. I remember that. I was sitting at (5)the table, and it stuck in my mind: there was one man. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you remember where, in which building, in what kind of place did you make the statement in Tuzla? (10) • A.: I don't know that. I couldn't tell you that. I don't remember. It's not in my mind anymore. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, Witness E. We have no further questions. Thank you very much for making this effort and giving your (15)evidence here. Thank you. And we now wish you a happy, safe journey home.
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, (20)perhaps it is time for a break, or shall we proceed, as we did before? MR. HARMON: May I take advantage, Mr. President, of a closed session, if it -- is it still closed, Mr. Dubuisson? (25)
THE REGISTRAR:
[Int.] No. No, we
MR. HARMON: Before we proceed with the next witness, or if the Court wishes to have a break, we can do either, but I'd like to inform the Chamber of a (5)misrepresentation that I made to the Chamber in respect of certain statements. And if I could go into closed session, I can inform the Chamber of some additional recent information that I got. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, (10)Mr. Harmon, you can speak openly, but I think we have to go into closed session. Are we? No. Excuse me. Let's organise things slightly differently. Let us first address things that we can address in open session and then go into closed session, in order not (15)to have to go back and forward. So our next witness. MR. HARMON: Our next witness is open; there are no protections requested. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me, Mr. Harmon. (20)Mr. Visnjic, do you want to tender Exhibits 3 and 4? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I do not
(25)know what the parties think, but exhibits should be
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] I agree, (10)Mr. President. MR. HARMON: Yes. Under seal for both exhibits is fine.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I wasn't
saying under seal; I was saying to tender them
(15)publicly, not under seal. But in order to protect the
witness, we only need to strike out the name of the
witness, which appears in the statement, who gave this
statement. So the document will be accessible to the
public, but the objective is to protect the witness and
(20)identity of the witness. So by producing this exhibit,
one has to eliminate, to strike out the name, to redact
the name, and the witness -- in this way, the document
will not become damaging to the witness and then the
document will become public.
(25)Do we understand that, Mr. Visnjic?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon? (5) MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I have not reviewed either of those statements, but oftentimes in the statement there is identifying information other than the name that needs to be redacted from the statement. He might state the name of his wife or the (10)name of his children, or other information that can be equally harmful to a witness who has sought the protection of this Chamber. That's why my suggestion would be that the statement be placed under seal or, alternatively, we have an opportunity to review it, to (15)redact, identifying information, and then it could be made public.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well,
Mr. Harmon. You will then read through the statement
from the point of view of the witness's protection, and
(20)you will then tell us which are the parts which need to
be redacted, and after that, the document will be
tendered. That is the only concern of the Chamber,
because our hearings are open, and that is a matter of
principle. However, if we have a statement of a
(25)protected witness, if we protect the witness and make
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So we are in open session so as to announce that the next witness will be giving his evidence in open session, and we shall now make a break. We do need a short rest, and Mr. Visnjic can read the statement so as to prepare for (15)cross-examination. So a 20-minute break. --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good
(20)afternoon, Witness Vaasen. Could you please stand up?
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much. You are now going to read the solemn
declaration, which the usher has already given to you,
(25)please.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. (5)You may be seated. I think I should also hear the solemn declaration of our interpreter. Madam, could you please read out the solemn declaration? THE INTERPRETER: I solemnly declare that I (10)will do so faithfully, independently, impartially, and with full respect for the duty of confidentiality. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You may be seated. Witness Vaasen, the Tribunal is grateful for (15)your appearance here. You are now going to answer questions that will be put to you by Mr. Cayley, who is representing the Prosecution here. Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.
MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President,
(20)Your Honours, counsel. In order to clarify matters
concerning the interpreter who is sitting to the right
of Mr. Vaasen, Mr. Vaasen will testify in the English
language. His English is excellent. He simply
requires the presence of an interpreter in case there
(25)is anything at any point he doesn't understand in
WITNESS: DAVID VAASEN • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: (5) • Q.: Your full name is David Vaasen; is that correct? • A.: That's correct. • Q.: If I can spell that for the purposes of the transcript, that's V-a-a-s-e-n. Is that the correct (10)spelling of your name? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: I think you are now 28 years of age? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: And you are Dutch by nationality. (15) • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: I think you are presently a lance corporal in the Air Mobile Battalion of the Dutch army. • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: I think your specialisation in the army is (20)that you are a medical orderly. You're a medic; is that correct? • A.: Yes, sir.
• Q.: I want you to cast your mind back to July of
1995, when I think you were then a private first class;
(25)is that correct?
• Q.: I think you were also performing the duties of a medical orderly, a medic. • A.: Yes, sir. (5) • Q.: And that was with DutchBat III, based again in the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: And I think at the time you were 23 years of age; is that correct? (10) • A.: That's correct. • Q.: Now, Corporal Vaasen, at the beginning of July of 1995, where were you based? • A.: I was at an observation post called Mike. • Q.: Now, next to you you'll see a large map. (15) MR. CAYLEY: I wonder, Mr. Usher, if that map could be brought in so the witness can more easily see it. • Q.: If you could just point to the Judges your location at that time. (20) • A.: [Indicates]
• Q.: I see. So that was your location in the
beginning of July 1995. And if the record can show
that the witness is pointing, or did point to
Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E and is indicating Observation
(25)Post Mike, which is an orange circle marked "M" on the
• A.: Well, first of all, the last couple of days were very intense. We had some mortar fire near our observation post. The first couple of days were one, (10)maybe two single shells, and they put it up more and more every day. So we had to stay in the bunker for almost three days, and after that, we were called by the Serbs to come out and to leave our observation post. (15) • Q.: Please continue. • A.: They shouted at us and used also a lot of things to make themselves clear that we had to move away from our observation post because they were going to bomb it with mortars. (20) • Q.: Now, you've just said in your evidence that "we had some mortar fire near our observation post." Who, to your knowledge, fired those mortars at Observation Post Mike? • A.: That was the Serb army. (25)
• Q.: Now, you've just stated that the Serbs asked
• A.: First, our group commander took the radio and (5)gave all the messages through to the base and Potocari, and then they told us later to withdraw ourselves to about 100 metres nearby the village Jaglici, and to stay up there. • Q.: Could you indicate on Prosecution Exhibit 1E (10)the village, if it's marked on that map, to which you withdrew? • A.: Yes, sir. Jaglici [Indicates], here it is. MR. CAYLEY: If the camera could zoom in, because I can't see through the lectern there. Thank (15)you. Let the record show that the witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E to the village called Jaglici. • Q.: If you could take a seat again, Corporal Vaasen. (20)Could you tell the Judges what happened when you got to Jaglici?
• A.: When we arrived at Jaglici, we were stopped
by the Muslim army. They were under Captain Enwer, and
they forced us to stay there, even with violence if
(25)necessary, and we were going to go back to our base.
• A.: Well, first of all, because we were the UN (5)army there, and also for their protection, and also to use our equipment, if it's necessary, against the Serb army. • Q.: When you say "an army," when you first got to Jaglici, how many Muslim soldiers did you see with (10)Captain Enwer? • A.: Well, first of all, he was a local officer, he was the local commander there, and there were also Muslim soldiers of -- I can't recall now but from the 82nd Muslim Brigade -- that's how they called (15)themselves -- and there were approximately about 30, 40 Muslim soldiers there. • Q.: From your recollection, do you recall how they were armed? • A.: Well, not so good. (20) • Q.: Now, you're a professional soldier. We are not. If you could explain to the Judges what you mean by "not so good"?
• A.: Well, some of them had guns, pistols, and
they didn't have enough ammunition to fight for their
(25)lives.
• A.: For three days. (5) • Q.: At the end of three days, what happened? • A.: Sorry. It was so that we tried to go away there. Our group commander, he was speaking to Captain Enwer, the local commander, and he made an arrangement that we could go back to our base in Potocari but we (10)had to take women, children, and older people with us. • Q.: You say that you had to take -- that Captain Enwer asked you to take women, children, and older people with you. Where were these women, children, and older people from? (15) • A.: They were, first of all, from Jaglici and also from other houses near Jaglici. • Q.: So at the end of this three-day period, you make your way back to Potocari. Can you tell the Judges about that journey back to Potocari? (20)
• A.: Well, when we started to drive back to our
base, we had people behind our APC, armoured personnel
carrier, also on our armoured personnel carrier, and
the crowd went larger and larger by the second because
there also came Muslim people from out of the
(25)mountains, and they joined us.
• A.: They were in very bad shape. They didn't have any water, no food, hardly any clothes. They were (5)terrified, you could see it, and it was horrible. • Q.: Now, as you approached the cemetery on the route that you took back, can you tell the Judges what you saw there? • A.: I saw Muslim soldiers. It was like they were (10)coming together there, and it was a huge crowd, and they were also armed. • Q.: Do you recall how many Muslim soldiers you saw? • A.: A couple of hundred. (15) • Q.: Could you stand up again? I'm sorry to keep asking you to sit down and stand up, but, unfortunately, this courtroom is not well designed for using large exhibits. Could you indicate to the Judges the route that you took from Jaglici to Potocari? (20) MR. CAYLEY: And, again, if the camera could zoom in so that I could actually see what the witness is pointing at.
• A.:
[Indicates] This is where we started, and
we were driving down from the hills, towards Potocari.
(25)And here is the cemetery
[indicates]
• Q.: So am I correct in saying that you drove the length of that road that is marked on the exhibit between, I think, Susnjari, Jaglici, and Potocari? (5) • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Could you indicate once more the location of the cemetery? • A.: Right here [indicates] • Q.: Could you keep the marker there? (10) MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show the witness is indicating the route that he took from Jaglici to Potocari, being the road marked inside the Srebrenica enclave from Jaglici, through Susnjari, to Potocari, and the cemetery being an approximate location just (15)above the "J" in Susnjari on the road between Susnjari and Potocari. • Q.: Witness, you can take a seat again. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Cayley, sorry to interrupt you. So that we have everything (20)clear, did they stop on the left or on the right side of the road? This might assist us in finding the exact location. MR. CAYLEY:
• Q.: Do you recall, Witness, whether the cemetery
(25)that you saw, and bearing in mind the direction that
• A.: It was on the left hand from the side of the (5)road. • Q.: Thank you, Witness. Do you recall what time of the day that you were making this journey? • A.: Well, it was already later that day, because it got a little bit darker. (10) • Q.: Now, can you tell the Judges what happened when you reached Potocari? • A.: When we reached Potocari, our commanding officer in Potocari told us to stay right near Potocari, and we couldn't -- first of all, we couldn't (15)go back to the base because the refugees who were coming from Srebrenica had first to go to Potocari and they wanted to organise that thing first before we went to Potocari. • Q.: Now, you say that your commanding officer (20)told you to stay right near Potocari. Can you remember approximately what distance you stopped from the UN compound? • A.: From the UN compound, it's about one -- one and a half kilometres. (25)
• Q.: And would I be right in saying that it was on
• A.: Yes. Yes. (5) • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what happened when you stopped at that location? • A.: When we stopped at that location, we had to wait there, and after a couple of minutes, we took heavy fire from the left of us, and it was total (10)chaos. They were shooting at us. They were shooting at the Muslim people who were behind us and also in front of us. The crowd started to run, to shout, and we also tried to help the people, and we also had to leave the place. (15) • Q.: Now, what was your job in the APC at this point in time? • A.: I was the shooter from the .50-calibre Browning, gun-crew member. MR. CAYLEY: My learned friend has just (20)pointed out perhaps something that I've confused.
• Q.: Now, you're saying that you were one and a
half kilometres from the UN compound. If you could
stand up -- and we're going to have to use the map
because I think it's probably easier -- and if you
(25)could show the Judges where you were located.
MR. CAYLEY: If the camera could zoom in. • Q.: So you were about one and a half kilometres from the UN base at that location. (5) MR. CAYLEY: And the witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, on the road between Susnjari to the UN base, just to the left of the purple triangle. • Q.: Witness, how far was that location from the (10)intersection with the Potocari road? • A.: About 300 metres. • Q.: Okay. Thank you. You can take a seat now. Now, you said that you essentially were on the gun crew for the .50-calibre Browning, and at that (15)point in time, you were actually taking direct fire. Do you know who you were taking direct fire from? • A.: From the Serb army. • Q.: Now, I think your rules of engagement allowed you to return fire when directly engaged. Did you (20)return fire? • A.: No, I didn't. • Q.: Why did you not return fire? • A.: Because I also had Muslim people on the APC, and if I fired that weapon, it would harm them. (25)
• Q.: Now, you describe a chaotic occurrence where
• A.: A couple of hundred. (5) • Q.: Did you see where they ran to? • A.: They went towards Potocari. • Q.: Now, I think you then continued along that road, and you then ran into another APC from the UN. Can you tell the Judges what happened when you ran into (10)that other APC? • A.: When we arrived at the intersection, there was from the Bravo Company an APC who stopped us and gave us the direction and also the order to leave the Muslim people at the factory, and we had to go back to (15)the base and take the injured people with us, the injured Muslim refugees. • Q.: So where did you leave the Muslim refugees who were not injured? Can you remember the location in and around Potocari? (20) • A.: Near the bus station. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/9, please. If that could be placed on the ELMO.
JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. What is the Bravo
(25)Company he mentioned?
JUDGE RIAD: It's a military division? • A.: It's a -- (5) JUDGE RIAD: Is it a military division? • A.: No. It's a company; it's no division. It's also from the Dutch army. JUDGE RIAD: I see. Thank you. MR. CAYLEY: (10) • Q.: Just to clarify matters, Corporal Vaasen, how many companies were there that operated on the company from DutchBat III? • A.: We had Bravo Company stationed in Srebrenica, and we were stationed, the Potocari Company, in (15)Potocari. • Q.: But I'm right in saying that platoons from those two companies were located in all of the various observation posts and, indeed, in Potocari itself and in Srebrenica? (20) • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Charlie Company, was it responsible for a geographical sector of the enclave? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Which sector was it responsible for? (25)
• A.: It was a northerly direction.
• A.: South. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, is that reasonably (5)clear now? JUDGE RIAD: For the moment, yes. Thank you. MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Corporal Vaasen -- (10)Mr. Usher, if you could move it, because I think he's going to have difficulty reaching across. Could you please point on that exhibit to the location of the bus station? • A.: [Indicates] This whole building, and also (15)here, where the buses are here. • Q.: Okay. If you could leave the pointer in the middle of the bus complex. MR. CAYLEY: So, for the purposes of the record, the witness is pointing to Prosecutor's Exhibit (20)5/9 and indicating to the large building in the background, a large grey building which dominates the photograph.
• Q.: That's fine. Thank you. Now, after you had
left the refugees at the bus station and taken the
(25)wounded into the compound, as you said, what did you
• A.: First of all, we had to drive our APC into the fabric, and -- factory, I'm sorry, into the factory, and we also helped the medics up there to load (5)off those Muslim people off our vehicle, and we also had to return to our commanding officer. • Q.: Now, after you'd done all of that, what did you do? • A.: I took a meal and I went to sleep. (10) • Q.: Now, when you refer to "the factory," you're referring to the DutchBat UN compound? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Let's move to the next day, which I believe was the 12th of July; is that correct? (15) • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what happened on that day, as far as you can remember? • A.: Yes. I got up very early in the morning, and they needed some soldiers to go to check out how the (20)situation was outside. There already were UN soldiers outside. So we went on patrol with the commanding officer -- I don't know his name anymore -- and we left the base.
• Q.: As you left the base, can you describe the
(25)scene that you saw to the Judges?
• Q.: If I could stop you there, Witness. Do you recall approximately how many people you could see all around you as you walked out of the compound? (10) • A.: A couple of thousand. • Q.: Do you recall what the temperature was at that time of day? • A.: Well, it was very -- it was already getting hotter by the moment. (15) • Q.: Now, you said that you walked out of the camp and that you went to the first factory. Do you recall the name of that factory? • A.: We called it the Blue/White Factory. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown (20)Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/19. • Q.: Witness, do you see the Blue Factory on that photograph? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Could you point to the Blue Factory? (25)
• A.: Yes, sir
[indicates]
• Q.: Could you indicate where the UN compound is located? (10) • A.: Yes. Up here [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the witness is pointing to the building in the left background of Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/19. • Q.: Thank you, Witness. Could you tell the (15)Judges what you saw and sensed as you went into that building? • A.: When we went inside, we saw also Muslim refugees, and on the look on their face, they were very terrified. Most of them were also crying. And the (20)feeling that you get, it's -- it was not good. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what else you saw in that building on the morning of the 12th?
• A.: There were also Muslim people who had hanged
themselves because they were -- yeah, by my feeling,
(25)terrified that something was going on. And the Muslim
• Q.: Now, you said that there were some Muslim (5)people who had hanged themselves, and I know these memories are difficult for you, but can you describe to the Judges exactly what you saw? • A.: They used everything to hang themselves. It was not a rope. Some of them took some clothes or (10)something else; I cannot recall. By the look of it, it was not good. • Q.: Now, when you saw these bodies hanging there, what did you and your fellow soldiers do? • A.: We took them down. (15) • Q.: And what did you do with the bodies? • A.: We took them outside the factory. • Q.: Now, these individuals who had hanged themselves, do you remember their sex, whether they were male or female, how old they were? (20) • A.: Most of them were male. • Q.: Do you know how many bodies you cut down that morning? • A.: Two.
• Q.: And you say most of them were male. Were
(25)they both men?
• Q.: Approximately what age? • A.: Yes, they looked older than they were, but my feeling was that they were about 30, 35. (5) • Q.: Now, the refugees in the rest of the building, you said they looked as if they were in a state of shock. How were they composed? Were they men, women, and children, or were there more of one particular group? (10) • A.: Well, there were more women and children than men up there. • Q.: What were the ages of the children that you saw in the Blue Factory? • A.: Well, it was from a baby, so from zero to 16, (15)17. • Q.: And these bodies were just hanging there in front of these children and these women? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you describe to me anything else that was (20)significant that you sensed in that building when you walked in? • A.: Yes. It was -- you could smell that they had urinated there; also they had defecated there.
• Q.: And you said that they had urinated in the
(25)building.
• Q.: And what else did you say they had done in the building? I didn't catch that. • A.: They defecated there. (5) • Q.: Now, after you'd moved around the Blue Factory, do you recall where you went next? • A.: Yes. Our commanding officer told us to mix up our group. We each went in a different kind of direction. (10) • Q.: Where did you go? • A.: I went to the bus station. • Q.: And that, indeed, is the bus station that you indicated earlier on the photograph that I showed to you. (15) • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: What did you find at the bus station? • A.: More Muslim people. • Q.: What was their state? • A.: They were all in the same state. (20) • Q.: When you say "the same state," do you mean the same as the people in the Blue Factory? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Now, after you'd been to the bus compound, where did you go next? (25)
• A.: Well, we went more towards our own UN
• Q.: Now, you are medically trained. • A.: Yes. • Q.: You're a medical orderly. How did you feel (5)when you looked around at all of these people? • A.: Well, I could tell that they were in bad shape, really bad shape. • Q.: Could you do anything for them, as a medic? • A.: No, not directly, no. (10) • Q.: Why was that? • A.: Because we didn't have enough equipment. • Q.: Now, after you returned to the compound, do you recall what your next orders required you to do? • A.: Well, I had to stay outside by my -- yeah, we (15)called it the beginning of where the refugees were standing, or lying or sitting. • Q.: Do you recall where you stayed outside? Do you recall where you were located? • A.: Yes. I was in front of the Muslim people. (20) • Q.: Now, I think at some stage you were instructed by your unit to form a human chain; is that right? • A.: Yes, that is correct.
MR. CAYLEY: Can the witness be shown
(25)Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2.
• A.: Let me see, it was about 2.00, 3.00. • Q.: Could you give the approximate location? (5) • A.: [Indicates] • Q.: Now, you're indicating on the road that runs north to south on this photograph, are you? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Now, the human chain was -- now, this is the (10)first human chain, is it? • A.: Yes. • Q.: So it's approximately between the location marked "The Zinc Factory" and the "Faros Building" about halfway in between, and that's on Prosecutor's (15)Exhibit 5/2. Can you explain to the Judges what exactly that human chain was? • A.: That human chain was with UN soldiers, we had to stay there because the Serb army was coming into the enclave. (20) • Q.: So you formed a line across the road; is that correct? • A.: Yes, sir.
• Q.: Sorry. You can take your hand away from that
photograph now.
(25)How many soldiers were there on the first
• A.: About 40 soldiers. • Q.: Were you armed? • A.: Yes, I was. (5) • Q.: In what position was your weapon? • A.: I had to hold it on my back. • Q.: Why did you have to put your weapon on your back? • A.: Our orders were not to be aggressive to the (10)Serb soldiers. • Q.: Now, you say that you were placed in this position because the Serb army was coming to the enclave. How long after you formed this human chain did the Serb army come to the enclave? (15) • A.: Right directly. • Q.: Do you recall where they came from? • A.: They came from Bratunac. • Q.: Sir, if you could indicate on the photograph again the direction from which they came, if you can (20)recall. • A.: Yes. It's this road [indicates]
MR. CAYLEY: So the witness is indicating
from the bottom, the southern point of the photograph,
along the road that runs down the middle towards
(25)Potocari, so upwards from the bottom of the
• Q.: Can you describe the soldiers that you saw, these soldiers that arrived from Bratunac? • A.: Yes, sir. They were heavily armed. They had (5)many weapons with them. They had, we call it, RPGs, that's an anti-tank weapon. They had AK-47s with them. They had sidearms with them, machine-guns. There was also a Russian-type tank coming also. • Q.: Now, you described how they were armed. Can (10)you describe how they were dressed? • A.: The first group that entered were dressed in black. • Q.: Let's stay with that first group that were dressed in black. Can you tell the Judges what you (15)know about that group? • A.: Well, when we saw them, and they were standing right in front of us, you could see that they were from the Arkan Tigers. • Q.: Now, you say that they were from Arkan's (20)Tigers. How do you know that?
• A.: Because before we went to Bosnia-Herzegovina,
we had training to remember the Serb soldiers, how they
are dressed, and the Muslim soldiers, and by that way,
we knew that they were Arkan's Tigers, and one of them
(25)also told us that they were Arkan's Tigers.
• A.: Also to me and friends of mine, colleagues. • Q.: Was there any significant badge or insignia (5)that indicated the unit? • A.: Yes. They had also a badge with a tiger on it, and the regular Serb badge. • Q.: Could you actually directly speak to any of these individuals? (10) • A.: Well, yes. Some of them speak English, some of them speak German, and I also speak a little bit of German, so ... • Q.: Now, this is the first group that you saw. What other groups did you see coming from Bratunac? (15) • A.: Also regular soldiers. • Q.: Now, when you say "regular soldiers," can you describe the uniforms that they were wearing? • A.: Camouflage. • Q.: And how were they armed? (20) • A.: They were also real good armed. • Q.: Do you recall any other units that came from Bratunac that you could identify? • A.: Yes. There were the Drina Wolves.
• Q.: Now, you say the Drina Wolves. How do you
(25)know that they were the Drina Wolves?
MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 57. (5) • Q.: Do you recognise this badge, Corporal Vaasen? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: And what is this badge? • A.: It's the badge from the Drina Wolves. • Q.: Now, within the Drina Wolves unit, do you (10)recall how many soldiers you saw? • A.: Yes, about 50, 60 the first time. • Q.: How well armed were the Drina Wolves? • A.: Very good, heavily armed, just like the Arkan's Tigers. (15) • Q.: So it would be correct to say that there were essentially three units that arrived at this time: the Arkan Tigers, the Drina Wolves, and regular VRS soldiers. • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Did they all appear to be working together, coming up towards the human barricade? • A.: No, no, no. They all had their own commanding officer.
• Q.: Now, when they arrived at the barrier, how
(25)did the refugees react to that?
• Q.: Now, after these two special units and these regular soldiers arrived at your barricade, do you (5)recall what happened next? • A.: Yes. There were some Drina Wolves, they were going to some houses on the left of me and started to plunder those houses. • Q.: Can you describe to the Judges, when you say (10)they started to plunder those houses, what exactly you saw taking place? • A.: Well, the first couple of houses where they went in, they came out with not really useful things, telephones, typewriters, coffee machines. They took (15)everything. And after a couple of houses, they also went inside another house, and they -- you could hear a scream, you heard a burst from an AK-47. After that, they also came out with stuff from inside, so also another telephone, VCR player, and thrown a grenade (20)inside. We called it a phosphor grenade. • Q.: Now, you said that you could hear a scream and you heard a burst from an AK-47. At the time, what did you think was taking place? • A.: That they were killing those people inside. (25)
• Q.: Now, as far as you know, were there members
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Were there members of the Muslim army in (5)those houses -- • A.: No, no, not from the Muslim army, just refugees, people who stayed there and ... • Q.: So as far as you know, the Muslims in those houses were refugees; is that correct? (10) • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Now, you say that you saw them throw a phosphor grenade, and I think by this you mean a phosphorus grenade; is that correct? • A.: Yes, sir. (15) • Q.: Now, when that phosphorus grenade was thrown into the house, what happened? • A.: It was on fire. • Q.: When you saw this taking place, what did you do? (20) • A.: We approached those Serb soldiers and tried to stop them. They laughed at us, and even one of them told us to stand down, not to interfere with what they were doing, that it's no problem to kill one or two people more, and they were pointing at us. (25)
• Q.: Now, how many times did you see this taking
• A.: A couple of times. • Q.: When you say "a couple," you can be more specific, if you can remember? (5) • A.: Three times. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness can be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/19, and if the photograph could actually be moved up. Further, actually. We don't need to have the factories actually particularly in the (10)background. • Q.: Now, this is a photograph that I've previously shown you. Can you explain to the Judges whether you recognise this photograph in connection with the incidents that you've just described to them? (15)
• A.: Yes. Where those houses are up here (20) • Q.: So you could just indicate again, first of all, where the soldiers walked from when they -- • A.: [Indicates]
• Q.: So I'm correct in saying they left the main
road just by the Blue Factory, and the red building,
(25)the red house without a roof to the right of the
• A.: Well, with the hand grenades was three times. • Q.: And the shooting and hearing the screaming? (10)How many times did you hear and see that? • A.: One time. • Q.: Okay. Thank you, Witness. Now, when you saw this taking place, how did you feel? (15) • A.: Well, first of all, I felt very sick in my stomach. It's not a normal thing. • Q.: Now, you'd already been warned, you've explained to the Judges, by one of these Serb soldiers not to get involved. So what did you do? (20) • A.: I went back to the human barricade and told the commander officer what's going on up there. • Q.: And what did he say to you?
• A.: He said, "Okay. You had better not do
anything," because at the moment when I saw that, I was
(25)very angry. First of all, I was wanting to grab my
• Q.: Why do you think they could not think very clearly? • A.: Because from the moment they went inside, you (10)could smell alcohol. They were using drugs. So they were under the influence. • Q.: When you say that they were using drugs, how could you tell? • A.: Because I smelled it and I saw it a couple of (15)times. • Q.: What could you see? • A.: They were sniffing white powder. • Q.: Now, you're a medic. Do you have any idea what drugs that they were using? (20) • A.: Cocaine. • Q.: Now, you returned, you said, to the human barricade. What did you see when you got back to the barricade?
• A.: Well, when I was there, later on there were
(25)some cars approaching to the UN compound and the
• Q.: Do you recall approximately what time this (5)was? • A.: It was already later that day. It was about 3.00, 3.30. • Q.: In the afternoon. • A.: Yes, sir. (10) • Q.: On the 12th of July. • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Now, you say you saw General Mladic and some other high-ranking soldiers. What did General Mladic do? (15) • A.: First of all, he approached the Muslim refugees, and there was also a camera crew with him, and they started to throw candy into the Muslim refugees. • Q.: If you could just stop there, and we'll play (20)a section of video which I think will probably help you refresh your memory.
MR. CAYLEY: This is Prosecutor's Exhibit 3.
It's a thirty-second video clip. If the video could be
played now.
• Q.: Corporal Vaasen, do you recall that scene? • A.: Yes, sir. (5) • Q.: You say that the soldiers were throwing candy to the children. • A.: Yes. • Q.: And, indeed, as this shows, all of this was being filmed. Can you explain to the Judges what (10)happened immediately after this took place? • A.: Well, first of all, they were filming everything that General Mladic was telling something to the people, and the people in front of them were a little bit, yeah, how do you call it, scared. And he (15)tried to shake hands with the people, and then the cameraman switched off the camera. And what then happened was terrible because he took the candy back, kicked the people, even hit those children up front. • Q.: Now, you say "he took the candy back." Who (20)took the candy back from the children? • A.: Well, they took them back, those soldiers who were in front of them. • Q.: And these soldiers, these were members of the Bosnian Serb army that were around General Mladic? (25)
• A.: Yes, sir.
• A.: Well, you saw that those faces were really (5)terrified, of those Muslim people, and directly he gave orders to a man who was right in front -- on the right of him, and that person went away. He let those other officers from the Serb soldiers come to him, he talked to them, and those Serb officers went back to their own (10)unit, and they started to reorganise things. They were starting to stand left and right of the road -- • Q.: Corporal Vaasen, if I can just interrupt you here. You said that -- in response to my question, "Directly he gave orders to a man who was right in (15)front." Who gave orders? • A.: General Mladic. • Q.: Now, General Mladic, let's focus on him for a moment. Whilst all this is going on, the candy is being taken back from the children, people were being (20)kicked, what was General Mladic doing? • A.: He was standing there and he looked very superior. • Q.: Did he see what his soldiers were doing? • A.: Yes, sir. (25)
• Q.: Did he say or do anything?
• Q.: Now, the man to whom he gave orders, did you know his name, the man to whom Mladic gave orders? • A.: No, but I can recall his face. It's no (5)problem. MR. CAYLEY: One moment, Mr. President. Ah, it's a good time to take a break, Mr. President, I think you're indicating to me. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, (10)Mr. Cayley. We shall take a 15-minute break, so as not to have too long a period of work at a stretch. Fifteen minutes. --- Recess taken at 1.43 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may continue, Mr. Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Thank you. If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's (20)Exhibit 28/13 and 28/13.1, please, which is the compilation of photographs of various individuals.
• Q.: Now, these are photographs which I've
previously shown to you. If you could identify the
individuals on this photograph, this is 28/13, you can
(25)go ahead and identify the individuals on the
• A.: This man [indicates] is General Mladic, and this is the other person I had seen with General Mladic, near those Muslim refugees. This is the same (5)person who got orders from Mladic. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show on Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/13 that the individual on the left of the photograph, the witness is identifying as General Mladic, and the individual on the right-hand (10)photograph as the other person who the witness saw with General Mladic near to the Muslim refugees and who received orders from General Mladic. • Q.: Just to be absolutely sure, Corporal Vaasen, this is the individual that you were speaking of before (15)the break who received orders from Mladic immediately after the incident with the women and the children, and the candy, the throwing of the candy. • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Now, once these orders were given to the (20)individual that you recognised, can you explain to the Court what happened?
• A.: Yes. The Serb soldiers were reorganising,
and they were going to stand to the left and right of
the road. After that, I saw the man who took the
(25)orders from Mladic grab a small radio, talk into the
• Q.: Now, while these Serb soldiers were reorganising, how were the refugees reacting at this (5)point? • A.: They were really scared. • Q.: Did you see any other VRS soldiers at that time who you hadn't seen previously? • A.: Yes. The first vehicle that approached the (10)refugees was full of Serb soldiers with German Shepherds. • Q.: Now, when you say "German Shepherds," you don't mean shepherds of German origin, you mean the breed of dog that is a German Shepherd. (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: What did these soldiers with these dogs do? • A.: Well, each soldier had his own dog, and they also took a side, the left side or the right side. • Q.: Now, when the refugees were in and around (20)these soldiers with the dogs, did you see anything taking place? • A.: Yes. They started to put the Muslim people inside those trucks and inside those buses and -- • Q.: Carry on. (25)
• A.: And they also -- separation took place at
• Q.: Now, when you say that separation took place, what do you mean by that? • A.: I mean men from the women and children. (5) • Q.: And when these men were separated, where did you see them being taken? • A.: There was a building, we called it the White House, and they were taken to that house. • Q.: How did the refugees react when they were (10)separated, when families were separated? • A.: It was total chaos. People tried to run away, push each other away, and whenever that happened, they started to fire in the air. • Q.: Now, you say "they started to fire in the (15)air," who started to fire in the air? • A.: Some Muslim soldiers who were in front of the refugees. • Q.: You say that Muslim soldiers started to fire who were in front of the -- (20) • A.: No, no, no. I'm sorry. Serb soldiers. • Q.: So Serb soldiers started to fire in the air above the refugees. • A.: Yes. • Q.: With what weapon did they fire? (25)
• A.: With their AK-47s, all kinds of weapons, and
• Q.: Just to give the Judges an approximate location of where all of this was taking place, do you (5)recall where this was taking place? • A.: Yes. It was still near the bus station. • Q.: And on that road -- • A.: On that road, yes. • Q.: -- near to the bus station. (10)Now, how did the crowd react when the Serb soldiers started firing over the heads of the crowd? • A.: They started to scream, to shout. Some of them who didn't listen got even directly fire. • Q.: You say, "Some of them who didn't listen even (15)got directly fire." What do you mean by that? • A.: They were shooting at the person directly. • Q.: So VRS soldiers were shooting directly at individuals in the crowd. • A.: Yes, sir. (20) • Q.: Was anybody injured as a result of this shooting? • A.: Yes. I even helped two people. • Q.: Now, you are a medic, you were a medic. Do you recall the injuries of those people? (25)
• A.: Yes, sir. One was shot in the leg and the
• Q.: What was the sex of those who were injured? • A.: Female. • Q.: Were both of them females? (5) • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Now, can you describe to the Judges, you started to explain the process of separation and moving the refugees onto the buses, can you describe how that process took place and what you saw happening, what you (10)saw the VRS soldiers doing around these refugees? • A.: Well, when they started to move those refugees to the buses and the trucks, they were -- well, it was very, very hard. Some of them were even kicked, beaten. They used their weapons, the back of (15)the weapon, to hit them everywhere. And even by the separation of the men, that was even harder because children tried to grab their fathers, even their brothers, and they used even force up there to separate those men, and they pushed the women and the children (20)towards the bus and the men towards the White House. • Q.: Now, the human barricade, you stated, was next to the bus station. Did it remain in that position? • A.: No, it didn't. (25)
• Q.: Can you explain to the Judges where the human
• A.: I can. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Exhibit 5/4. (5) • Q.: Do you recall at approximately what time the barricade moved? • A.: I don't. I don't recall that anymore. • Q.: Why did the barricade move? • A.: Because we were totally outnumbered up there, (10)and there were so many refugees that we couldn't have held them in one place, and that's why they pushed us towards the buses. MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry. I've given the wrong number. Can the witness be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit (15)5/2, please? • Q.: So what you're saying is, in essence, you were actually physically pushed back down the road. • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Can you indicate as best you can remember, (20)and I know it's a long time ago now, but approximately to where the barricade moved on the 12th of July? • A.: [Indicates] • Q.: So this is the second location of the barricade, the first being opposite the bus compound. (25)
• A.: The first one was here
[indicates], and then
MR. CAYLEY: So the witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2, to the right of the wording "Faros Building," on the road that runs north/south, (5)like a ribbon, down the centre of the photograph. • Q.: Just to clarify, Corporal Vaasen, the barricade was still actually on the road. • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Now, can you describe, when you looked into (10)these buses that were around, can you describe to the Judges the condition of the refugees in those buses? • A.: Well, the refugees were in totally bad shape. It was even very hot that day, about 38 degrees. The people who went inside those buses and (15)trucks were pushed inside, and even you could see that they were putting too many people -- too many people in one vehicle because you saw even those children, their heads against the window, and ... • Q.: Now, when you saw this, did you do anything? (20) • A.: Yes. I walked back, because I walked several times with some of those Muslims, I walked back to that man who earlier was given those orders from Mladic. • Q.: And that's the man that you recognised in the photograph with General Mladic. (25)
• A.: Yes, sir.
• A.: No, sir. • Q.: Now, you walked back to that man, and did you find him? (5) • A.: Yes, sir. Yes, yes, yes. He was standing all the time at the same place, and I told him that there were too many people in one bus or in a truck, and he told me that it was not his concern and we had to deal with it. (10) • Q.: So when he said that you had to deal with it, what did you do? • A.: I went back to the commander officer, who was standing right in front of the human chains, and I told him what was going on at the buses. So we started to (15)reorganise the human chain, and they let, every time, groups of ten people go out of crowd towards those buses. Some of the soldiers who were UN soldiers even got orders from that person to walk with them, and if you see that there were enough people in the bus, stop (20)it and then go directly to the other bus. • Q.: Now, when you're referring to the commanding officer, are you referring to the Dutch commanding officer or a Bosnian Serb officer? • A.: No, it was our commanding officer. (25)
• Q.: The Dutch commanding officer.
• Q.: Now, in essence, you're saying that by reorganising the human chain, you regulated the flow of refugees, you controlled the flow. You took less (5)people who were coming through the barricade to get on the buses. Is that right? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Did you yourself actually escort any of these groups to buses? (10) • A.: Yes, sir, and I was not the only one. • Q.: Did conditions get better when you put this plan into effect -- • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: -- for the refugees? (15) • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Why did it get better? • A.: Because those buses were not so full that they were -- that they had also their faces against the windows, and they even could sit normally. (20)
• Q.: Now, let's just talk again at this point
about the Bosnian Serb army that was in and around this
operation that was taking place.
Can you describe the uniforms of the Bosnian
Serb soldiers at this point in time, who were in and
(25)around the refugees and the buses?
• Q.: Green camouflage or blue camouflage? • A.: Green. • Q.: You mentioned earlier special units and (5)regular Bosnian Serb soldiers. • A.: Yes. • Q.: At this point in time, these large groups of VRS soldiers, were they regulars or special units? • A.: No, they were regular. (10) • Q.: Let's talk about the White House, which you mentioned earlier. You said that you saw men being separated and taken to the White House. MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness can be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/17. (15) • Q.: Again, this is a photograph that I've shown you earlier. Do you recognise that photograph? • A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what that photograph shows? (20) • A.: It shows the White House. • Q.: And this is the White House to which you were referring where men were taken off to the separation from their families? • A.: Yes, sir. (25)
• Q.: Can you describe to the Judges what you saw
• A.: The men who were separated from their families had to go through the gate. Right in front of (5)it you have a gate here [indicates] They had to sit right in front of it, beside this house [indicates], and they had to leave all their luggage also here on the grass. Some of them were also taken inside to the house, and later on they came out and they were -- you (10)could see that there was something going on, because they had scars, bruises, everything, and they got separated from the rest of the men. • Q.: Approximately how far away from the White House were you when you were observing the events (15)taking place there?
• A.: As you can see, this is a little bit of the
main road
[indicates], and I was standing here MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the (20)witness is indicating to the left of the foreground to the main road that you can see. The main road leads into the side road into the White House. He was standing at the entrance to the side road, observing what was taking place at the White House. (25)
• Q.: Let's talk a little bit more about the men
• A.: Yes. The men were very scared. Some of them were in some kind of shock. They were staring only (5)right in front of them. Some of them even cried. It was real bad, their look was real bad. • Q.: Now, the evacuation that day, on the 12th, for how long did it continue? • A.: Until it got dark. (10) • Q.: Now, when it got dark and the evacuation stopped, what did you do? • A.: I stayed there. • Q.: When you say "there," where did you stay? • A.: I stayed near the human barricade. (15) • Q.: Did you stay at the human barricade all night, or did you go around the area? Did you look into any of the other buildings around that area? • A.: We also got orders to check the buildings, and the refugees, what kind of state they were in. (20) • Q.: Did you, in fact, do that? • A.: Yes, sir, I did. • Q.: Whereabouts did you go that night? Can you tell the Judges?
• A.: Yes. We also went -- excuse me. We also
(25)went, first of all, to the Blue Factory.
• A.: Yes, sir. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges, from your memory, (5)exactly what you saw that night in the Blue Factory, what you heard, what you smelt? • A.: Well, it was the same smell as the whole day -- as earlier that day, when I went inside, and people were scared. Some of them were starving from (10)hunger, and they didn't have any water. Even we couldn't help them. It was very dark inside. And behind the factory, we heard some crazy noises, so we checked it out. We were with three members, three UN soldiers, and we went to the back of the factory, and (15)when we were at that area, we heard the sound of a female. And we switched our flashlights on, and we saw two Serb soldiers, one of them was standing guard and the other one was lying on the girl, with his pants off. (20) • Q.: When you got there and switched the flashlight on, what happened next?
• A.: Well, they were -- first of all, they didn't
know who we were, and they started to run away. And it
was so quickly that, even for us, it was a surprise
(25)because we didn't know what we were getting into. And
(10) • Q.: Now, you were a medic. Did you offer medical assistance? • A.: Yes, I tried, but they refused. • Q.: Why did they refuse? • A.: Because she was totally in shock. She was (15)also kicking towards us and waving with her hands. And she didn't want help from us because she was scared. • Q.: Now, at the time, and I'm going to ask you a question that seems fairly obvious, but it's for the purposes of the record, did you conclude what you had (20)seen taking place? • A.: Yes, a raping. • Q.: Were there other refugees in and around this rape while it was taking place? • A.: Yes, sir. (25)
• Q.: What were they doing?
• Q.: How old was the girl? Do you remember? • A.: Well, she was very young, about 19, 20 years. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, would you wish to (10)end at this point? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] How much longer do you think your examination-in-chief will take? MR. CAYLEY: Another 15 minutes, (15)Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Then perhaps it is better to adjourn now. Very well. We shall adjourn and resume tomorrow with your testimony, Mr. Vaasen. We shall be resuming tomorrow at half past (20)nine. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of March, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
