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(1)Wednesday, 29 March 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 10.15 a.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good
morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning,
interpreters, I can see that you are there; good
morning, sound engineers, counsel for the Prosecution,
(10)for the Defence, General Krstic; and also good morning
to the witness and his interpreter.
We shall now resume our case, the Krstic
case. For the record, we are all here, the same,
except for Judge Wald, who, for urgent and pressing
(15)matters, could not join us. Under Rule 15 bis,
paragraph (A), the two Judges, Judge Riad and I,
believe that the interests of justice, that is, a fair
and expedient process, requires that we continue
hearing this case.
(20)During the absence of Judge Wald, and she
will be absent for three days, we have decided to
continue hearing the case, and we shall do so by
hearing the evidence that was begun yesterday by the
witness who is already in the witness box.
(25)Mr. McCloskey, it is now up to you. I should
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
WITNESS: WITNESS F
[Resumed] • EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: [Cont'd] • Q.: Witness F, I believe we left off yesterday (10)where you had described the bodies you'd seen and photographed, and you were describing them on the pictures. Now, let me ask you, how close were you able to get to those bodies and view them? (15) • A.: Approximately 20 to 25 metres. I was on a slope, on an incline, so I didn't see straight ahead. I looked downwards. • Q.: Were you able to make out the kinds of clothes that the people were wearing? (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me, Mr. McCloskey. The French booth did not hear your question. Could you repeat it, please? MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
• Q.: Were you able to make out the different kinds
(25)of clothing that the people were wearing?
(5) • Q.: Could you make out the sexes of the victims? • A.: They were all men between the ages of approximately 15 to -- THE INTERPRETER: -- 45, I believe the witness said. The interpreter is not sure. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Can you state that again? There was a little bit of an interpretation problem. They didn't make out your last answer. • A.: They were all men, in the age group 15 to (15)45. • Q.: And were you able to see any injury on any of these victims? • A.: Yes. Some of them had bloodstains on their backs and at the back of their heads. (20) • Q.: And what did you do after seeing these victims and photographing them?
• A.: I climbed back up and I joined my colleague
who was standing on guard there. I looked at him. I
was in shock. And we immediately returned to the
(25)compound.
• A.: Around noon. • Q.: And did you go back outside the compound any (5)time that day? • A.: After returning to the compound, I returned, I had a cup of coffee, and then I went back outside. • Q.: And what was going on outside the compound? • A.: People were still being deported, taken to (10)buses, just like the first day, actually. • Q.: And I believe you discussed this briefly, but can you tell us what the senior VRS officers you saw there -- out there that day? • A.: High-ranking officers, they were all present (15)again. Some of them were just standing and looking whether things were going according to plan, and for the rest, they didn't do much. • Q.: And can you name the officers whose names you now know? (20) • A.: The person present in the courtroom was there, and some others, some people who just were walking around, not so many, and that was all. • Q.: How about General Mladic? • A.: He was also present, indeed, yes. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. He said they were
THE WITNESS: [Int.] Those officers were in the vicinity, standing near the vicinity of the (5)main compound, near the interrogation house, and they were just watching whether everything was going to plan, and some of them also went towards the direction of Srebrenica, the officers. JUDGE RIAD: Near the interrogation house or (10)near the bodies? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Next to the interrogation house is where the officers were. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: And how long did it take until all of the (15)Muslims were transported from the area outside the compound? • A.: Till about dusk, 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening, since it was summertime. I would like to repeat that I don't remember the times, I didn't -- when you live (20)through such days, you don't watch the time, you don't look at your watch. One is a bit unstable. • Q.: Did you see anything happen to the belongings that were in front of the White House after everyone was transported out of the area? (25)
• A.: All around the compound, there were many
• Q.: And were you able to photograph this? • A.: Yes. MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could show the (10)witness Exhibit 62. • Q.: Do you recognise this photograph as a photograph you took? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And approximately when was this taken? (15) • A.: During the end of the evening, when dusk broke. • Q.: And was that the same day that the Muslims were finally all transported out of the area? • A.: That's correct. (20) • Q.: And were you able to see who lit this pile of belongings on fire? • A.: Negative. • Q.: Could it have been Dutch soldiers? • A.: No. (25)
• Q.: Now, the soldiers you saw in black that
• A.: Yes, indeed, I was close to them, but I (5)couldn't see any emblems. • Q.: Were you able to make out any emblems or insignia on any of the soldiers that you were close enough to see during those two days? • A.: No. The infantry units only had little (10)strips of fabric on their shoulders, just to show that they were belonging together, and of course the police cars had the letters "Police" written on them. And that was all the emblems I could see. • Q.: So did you stay in Potocari for about another (15)week, and then -- until you were finally shipped out with the rest of your colleagues? • A.: Yes. MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions, Mr. President. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you,
Mr. McCloskey.
Now, Witness F, the time has come for you to
answer the questions which Mr. Petrusic, as I see, will
ask you. He is one of the counsel for the defence of
(25)General Krstic.
• CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: Good morning, Witness F. In the beginning of (5)your testimony, and today, you referred to units dressed in black uniforms. Did these units have their own command? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And independently of units wearing camouflage (10)uniforms of somewhat poorer quality, operated on their own, operated independently? • A.: No, they were independent of the black units. • Q.: Yes. My question is they operated (15)independently of other units, didn't they? • A.: Yes. They didn't do any business with other infantry units. • Q.: So those other infantry units had their own command, didn't they? (20) • A.: Yes. They mainly consisted of NCOs who went along with them, along the lines, and the people in black had their own commanders. So they were separate from each other.
• Q.: These units, just for the sake of
(25)identification, I will call them the same way you did,
• A.: That's correct. (5) • Q.: Could you tell us where precisely was this combat in relation to Bratunac-Srebrenica road? Where was fighting taking place? • A.: If I could have a map, I could show you, just to clear things up. (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, just a moment while we show the witness the exhibit. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I'm sorry. (15)Perhaps it would even be better if -- Mr. Dubuisson is suggesting to use Exhibit 2, and then the witness perhaps could show it on that map. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Mr. Dubuisson will help us now. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, may I make a suggestion, please? Perhaps this will, after all, be a better solution.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, I
think you are right, Mr. Petrusic, and I think we
(25)should remove the big map, if it is not necessary. If
THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] I should also like to ask Mr. Petrusic the number of the exhibit. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, for the (10)record, Exhibit 5A of the Prosecution. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I think it is better now, because otherwise we would have to go into a closed session because if the witness had to move about, then it would be difficult to provide (15)the protection measures. Yes, Mr. Petrusic, I think now it will be all right.
• A.: At that moment, when I was on my location,
looking towards Bratunac, OP Papa, to the eastern side
(20)there were a couple of Muslim fighters, so that is that
side
[indicates]; to the north we heard sounds, heavy
engine sounds, heavy vehicles. It later turned out to
be a Russian T-55 tank. They came from the
direction -- they came from the western direction. The
(25)Muslim fighters fired light mortar from the east
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
(20)Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry to cut in, but perhaps we need
to have a synthesis of what the witness said, because
we are receiving the interpretation "from here to
here," but we do not know where he was. Could you give
us the coordinate points? Where is Bratunac? Where is
(25)Srebrenica? And where was the witness? I think it
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Precisely that is what I wanted to ask about the road between Bratunac (5)and Srebrenica. • Q.: Where exactly did the fighting between Serb and Muslim forces take place? If I may be allowed to continue. The witness, when pointing, because we have those figures (10)on the map, perhaps he will keep the pointer on the figure, or rather on the box, on the square, that he's showing. • A.: My position was in map square 91, this square here [indicates], at the top of this square. I was (15)looking towards map square 64, 65, the square under 65, 90, and 63. The Muslim fighters were all in the map square here [indicates], under this, so that's 59, and they fired from 59 to -- THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please (20)repeat the last number? Could the witness please repeat the last number?
• A.: Square 59 is where the Muslim fighters fired
their mortars, towards square 64, this general
direction
[indicates], and this fire was answered with
(25)machine-gun fire, and from time to time cannon shots.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. My colleague has pointed out to me that it's not clear who had the anti-aircraft gun, and perhaps that's an important factor for this discussion. (10)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. I
think that there have been quite a few problems with
interpretation here. I believe that the French
interpretation has more or less followed, but while
Mr. McCloskey was speaking, they were still
(15)interpreting the words of the witness. We should try
to figure out exactly where the anti-aircraft gun was
positioned, I believe that that was the question.
After the witness has answered to that question, I will
then ask Mr. Petrusic to ask specific questions because
(20)the witness has already covered quite a few facts.
But let me ask the witness the following
question: If we look at the map, if we look at the
circle on the map, I think that Bratunac is in the
north-westerly direction, whereas Srebrenica is
(25)situated towards south. Is that the case, Witness?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Could you therefore be more specific and tell us the exact position of the AA gun? (5) THE WITNESS: [Int.] This anti-aircraft gun was placed on a vehicle. I'm not familiar with the kind of vehicle, but the anti-aircraft gun was a ZSU-23.2 [Interpreter's Note: "ZSU-23.2" I believe the witness said] it came from (10)the direction of OP Papa. It was the direction of the compound Potocari, towards the direction of Srebrenica. It halted at the edge of a wood, approximately at a distance of three kilometers -- no, I correct myself -- two kilometres from the (15)compound. They were firing at the positions in the eastern direction, in map square 92, where the Muslim fighters were at that moment. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, could you now ask your question. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. My first question was also quite specific, but the witness elaborated on it. I will continue asking very specific questions, Your Honour.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well,
(25)then. But both of you, both you, Mr. Petrusic, and
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] (5) • Q.: Bearing that in mind, therefore, could you tell us the time of day when this conflict between Serbian and Bosnian forces occurred? • A.: They were already busy quite early in the morning on that day, and the nearer the Serbs advanced, (10)the fights became heavier. And during the previous days, of course, there were also -- we heard some fights -- • Q.: Yes. Thank you. Could you now tell us what date it was? (15) • A.: We're mainly talking about the first day. • Q.: Could you perhaps refer us to a specific event which took place on a date which you are sure about, to put it somehow in context? And then in respect of that date, if you can please tell us the (20)exact date of this particular event, which is now interesting for us.
• A.: Those -- around the days of the 10th and the
11th, until the Serbs had entered the enclave, then
there was hardly any fighting anymore. But I can't
(25)very well remember the dates. We just lived from day
• Q.: Yesterday, Witness F, you testified about a police transporter or personnel carrier that arrived in Potocari. (5) • A.: Do you mean the blue vehicle? • Q.: Yes. • A.: That's correct. It had also arrived, yes. • Q.: You refer to it as a police personnel carrier. (10) • A.: That vehicle was a blue vehicle. It was very distinctive between all that green materiel. It was an armoured vehicle, on wheels. • Q.: Were there any police forces in Potocari? • A.: Yes. When the troops had all entered, there (15)were also police officers present, and they mainly drove Volkswagen Golfs, [Interpreter's Note: "Type E," I believe the witness said] Blue ones. • Q.: When did the Muslim refugees start arriving in Potocari from the direction of Srebrenica? Could (20)you tell us the date, please?
• A.: The refugees already had realised that the
tension was mounting, so those refugees had been
gathering a couple of days before the fall, they had
been gathering around the compound. But to repeat, I
(25)don't know all the dates.
• Q.: Witness F, do you know where the transport of refugees from Potocari towards Bratunac by buses had (5)begun? • A.: Around noon. • Q.: On what day, please? • A.: Directly after the fall of the enclave, after the Serbs had entered. (10) • Q.: Was it on the day after the fall of the enclave? • A.: The same day the enclave fell and the Serbs marched next to the compound, immediately vehicles were put on the disposal for the refugees, to take them (15)away. • Q.: Did the enclave fall on the 11th of July? • A.: That's correct. • Q.: Therefore, can we say that the evacuations started on the 12th -- I'm sorry, on the 11th of July? (20) • A.: Immediately after the Serbs had entered, the buses and trucks came to transport those people. They came immediately behind the troops. So it was prepared. • Q.: So this took place on the 11th of July? (25)
• A.: To my knowledge, yes.
• A.: That's right. • Q.: The next time you saw him was on the (5)following day? • A.: I saw him during two days; that's correct. • Q.: So it was on the following day? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could we say that you yourself concluded (10)that, in addition to other officers, General Krstic was trying to look after the things, was trying to make sure that everything was going on according to a plan? • A.: Yes. I think that was the case. Of course, I didn't know at that time what his function was. (15)There were several officers present whom I didn't know. And it was their affair, of course. • Q.: So it was your conclusion? • A.: Yes, because such an operation is led on a high level, and that high level is usually present to (20)see whether everything is going according to plan. Why else would they be there? • Q.: So after the second time you saw General Krstic, you never saw him again in that area? • A.: That's right. (25)
• Q.: Did you know that a higher ranking officer of
• A.: I knew that there were proceedings going on, but I never really followed against whom and why. I (5)don't have time for that. I'm too busy with my work. • Q.: A film was shown here in the Netherlands, whose authors, I believe, are some BBC journalists. The subject of the film were the events which took place in July 1995 in Srebrenica. The title of the (10)film was "A Cry from the Grave" or "A Scream from the Grave." Have you seen that film, by any chance? • A.: Actually, during five years, I only heard negative things about Srebrenica. That is why I did not -- I didn't want to deal with Srebrenica anymore. (15)I had enough of it, like many of us. And I was not interested in Srebrenica anymore. I've been harassed by these events for long enough now. • Q.: And lastly, Witness F, I should like to know whether, when you saw General Krstic, whether you also (20)saw him giving any orders to his subordinates, to his subordinate officers?
• A.: Of course I was not with the commanders, but
if anything was discussed, it was said and it was
talked about, and they made gestures and they moved
(25)their arms. But I don't know what was said. I don't
• Q.: But in this particular case, do you know which instructions we are talking about? I mean, the instructions emanating from General Krstic. And if you could please give me a yes or no to this question. (10) • A.: It was mainly about the transport being speeded up -- MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I apologise, but I wanted a simple yes or no answer from the witness. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness F, you have been asked a question by Mr. Petrusic, who wanted to know whether you are able to -- that is, whether you were able to hear the instructions that were allegedly given by General Krstic to his (20)subordinate officers, and I think that the answer should be yes or no. I hope I'm correctly interpreting your intervention, Mr. Petrusic. So, please, yes or no. (25)
• A.: I didn't understand the language, but orders
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: We have a bit of a contradictory answer here, because if you do not understand the language -- (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic -- sorry. I believe the witness has answered your question. Apparently, there is a slight contradiction, but the witness is a soldier and I believe that he's able to understand the so-called (10)non-verbal aspects of the communication. He said that he did not hear the General give instructions because he doesn't speak the language, but it was his impression that he was giving instructions. So I think that we should accept this. (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Your Honour. I do not have any more questions for this witness.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. Petrusic, I did not want to interrupt the
(20)cross-examination, but I think that we should avoid
repeating what was already said during the direct
examination. We should have a very specific context,
lay some foundations, and then ask specific questions.
We, of course, have a possibility to discuss later on
(25)evidence given by witnesses in general. There will be
MR. McCLOSKEY: Just briefly, Mr. President. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. McCloskey, let us hear you. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: • Q.: I believe you've testified that you're not sure about the various dates of these incidents; is (20)that correct? • A.: That's correct. • Q.: Are you clear that the day that the Bosnian Serb troops came into Potocari is the same day that the transportation of the refugees began? (25)
• A.: When the Serbs had entered, immediately after
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I don't have anything further, Mr. President. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Judge Fouad Riad. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. (10) • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: I'll call you Witness F. Good morning. My questions will be of a general character and would help us draw the conclusions without going into details most of the time. In fact, my questions (15)turn around to main things, the role of the Drina Corps in this organisation, which you mentioned was very well organised and it was a well-prepared stage. Now, what was the role of the Drina Corps, in your opinion, in this very well-organised stage? Was (20)it a prominent role? Was it a leading role? What was your assessment?
• A.: In my opinion, to cleanse the area as quickly
as possible, mop it up from all sides. As you know,
there were also military advancing from Srebrenica.
(25)And from the vicinity of Bratunac, also units were
JUDGE RIAD: And the Drina Corps was there (10)all the time? • A.: Yes, it was always present. JUDGE RIAD: Always present. And it is also a well-organised corps. What you said, that the Serbs were very well-organised, this applies also to the (15)Drina Corps? • A.: Yes, certainly. JUDGE RIAD: And a good chain of command? I'm repeating you. With a good chain of command? • A.: Yes, indeed, there was very good command. (20)They were disciplined men, they were experienced military men. Indeed, it was a well-planned operation.
JUDGE RIAD: You did not notice that some
soldiers were just going wild and doing whatever they
(25)wanted, killing or raping, whatever they wanted?
JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned several cases
(15)where you saw General Krstic. I noted them, but of
course you know them as well as I. He was with General
Mladic when he was distributing the sweets to the
children, and then you saw him when he wanted to enter
the compound to see how many refugees were there.
(20)That's the first day.
You apparently saw him the second day, around
the White House, looking whether everything went
according to plan. And you also mentioned that you saw
him with high-ranking officers of the VRS, standing and
(25)looking around to see if everything was according to
(10) • A.: Indeed, he was constantly present, but those rebels or those Rambo-types just went their own way. On the second day, when I took the pictures in the vicinity, the pictures of the bodies, there were many Rambo-types around. They guarded the surroundings (15)and they were in houses and on chairs, all sitting on material belonging to Muslims, and they used stuff and they took it along, and he didn't say anything about it. Those people carried alcohol, cigarettes. They had stolen our watches, our weapons, and nothing was (20)said about that.
JUDGE RIAD: Now, to take an example, when
you mentioned today that he was with high-ranking
officers, standing and looking around, I even asked you
what he was looking at. And the dead bodies which you
(25)spoke about, with the bloodstains on the back of their
• A.: Nine to ten corpses which I found were (5)diagonally in an open field at the edge of a forest, near a creek, behind the interrogation house, about 700 metres from the compound. I don't think it was visible by Dutch military men, but I'm sure that he knew about it. (10) JUDGE RIAD: How far were these dead bodies from the interrogation house? • A.: 400 to 450 metres. That's my estimate. JUDGE RIAD: And other things you mentioned, for instance, the babies -- when you mentioned the (15)first night, people hanged themselves and there were dead babies inside the compound. Is anybody in control of this situation? Would it be possible for him to be completely unaware of it? • A.: You mean somebody belonging to DutchBat? (20) JUDGE RIAD: No. General Krstic. Somebody in control. • A.: Of course they knew about this. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you,
(25)Judge Riad.
• A.: That is absolutely correct. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Can you use the pointer and indicate on the ELMO -- will you please (10)turn to the ELMO? Perhaps, Mr. Usher, you could help the witness. Can you tell us: What was the angle at which you were observing these events? Could you trace it? (15)Could you mark it with the marker? Could you use the marker to show at which angle you were? Could you just draw at which angle were you watching it, the visual angle. • A.: [Marks] (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Just to get our bearings right. Could you perhaps put next to letter "F", "north" and "south." • A.: [Marks]
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So now
(25)north is the direction of Bratunac. Is that so? And
• A.: That's correct. Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And for west and east, we have mountains on those two sides. (5) • A.: That's correct. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Now, I should like to ask you: How long were you at that particular site observing, more or less? How long did you observe them from that particular place? (10) • A.: The day before the fall, plus the night, till about 11.00 on the first day. I think 15 or 16 hours. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So if I understand you well, you were there on the 10th, during the night between the 10th and 11th, and on the 11th (15)until about 11.00. • A.: That's right. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did you go back to your observation point after 11.00 on the 11th of July? (20) • A.: Yes. This position had been prepared when the situation -- when the tension was mounting, so it also had to be broken down. So this was an additional position on the compound.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So you did
(25)not come back to this observation post. You picked out
• A.: Indeed. I had been assigned to another place, yes, and of course there was a command for me, when the Serbs had already entered. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. And where was this other observation post? THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. Could you please ask the witness to start again. I'm sorry. Interpreter's mistake. Could you please ask the (10)witness to start again. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Excuse me, Witness F. You really have to speak slowly and make a pause between question and answer. THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness speak (15)up, please. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We need a double pause because we are not in the usual situation with the interpreters. With the working conditions that we have now, we need twice as much time for breaks (20)so the interpreters can catch up with you. So will you please begin once again? So your second observation post, where was it? THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness speak up, please. (25)
• A.: The Muslim refugees were already present on
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] My second question is as follows, Witness F: Where were you when you saw General Krstic?
• A.: At the moment -- at that moment, I was at the
(10)main entrance to the compound, this location JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question. Where was General Krstic? • A.: At the centre of all the happenings, around (15)the refugees, so he was in the centre between the main entrance, the bus complex, and the White House, around the compound.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Now,
Witness F, I will ask you to use the pointer to show
(20)the place where you saw General Krstic. And I'm going
to use also the transcript which the Prosecutor used --
I can use another letter, if we need one, in addition
to the letter used by the Prosecutor.
Can you show us on this exhibit, where were
(25)you when you saw General Krstic? Where was the place
• A.: [Marks] JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very good. (5)Now, will you mark the place where General Krstic was at the time, and put an "H" next to it. • A.: [Marks] JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question, Witness F. How far away are points "H" and (10)"G"? • A.: Ten to fifteen metres. They just were walking around together. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Ten to fifteen metres; is that so? (15) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question. Were there any barriers, anything that would obstruct your view, houses or trees or anything, between the place where you were standing and the place (20)where General Krstic was? • A.: There were no obstacles, no trees, no rocks. There were security people, but nothing else.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So all the
other VRS officers whom you mentioned, General Mladic,
(25)Commander Nikolic, and others, they were also there, at
• A.: Around point "H". JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question. Why do you say that this person who is (5)sitting behind in the dock is the same person that you saw from -- that you saw at point "H"? • A.: I don't understand your question. I'm sorry. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I see (10)that you couldn't understand because I was trying not to lead you. You're saying that General Krstic, and that is the person who is sitting here in the bottom of this room, was on the 11th and the 12th of July -- that you saw him in that place. Why is it, how, on the (15)basis of what are you concluding that this is one and the same person? Sorry. Did somebody tell you, "This is General Krstic," or did General Krstic meet you and introduce himself and say, "I'm General Krstic"? That (20)is it. Can you understand now? How did you know? • A.: Nobody came up to me and told me that this is the General, but I recognise his face. I recognise it very well.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So you're
(25)saying that this is -- that this was General Krstic,
(5) • A.: That's correct. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Tell us another thing. On the 11th of July and on the 12th of July, so on the two occasions that you saw General Krstic, did you always see him at that same (10)place, at "H", or did you see him in different places? • A.: Of course, he moved around, but I saw him at those points. And for the rest, I was busy with my own work. I didn't always pay attention to him. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Now, this (15)was not my last question, Witness F. I'm sorry. I should like to -- if you can -- but I think that your training enables you to tell us the results of your observation. With regard to what you saw concerning (20)General Krstic, what is it that you saw? Don't give us your conjectures, but if possible, describe to us -- because you had your camera. So as in a photograph, tell us, what did you observe with regard to General Krstic? It is both difficult and easy. (25)
• A.: Indeed, it's difficult to find the right
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness F, I want to ask you now: General Krstic -- who did General Krstic talk to, if he talked? • A.: With several officers. I apologise for being so emotional, but after five years, things are (15)emerging. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] That is quite natural, Witness F. It is human to have emotions, and we understand how you feel and we respect that too. But if you answer my question, I (20)will try to ask short questions, and you can answer them directly. If you want a break, then we can make a break. Shall we continue? Very well. Thank you. So were there some individuals who came and went to General Krstic? (25)
• A.: Yes. I think they were mainly officers, and
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And did General Krstic use some means of communication; that (5)is, a radio, walkie-talkie, or something else that he used? • A.: I didn't observe it directly. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] From what you saw, were there some individuals who looked as if (10)they were asking questions of General Krstic or supplying him with some information? • A.: Yes, indeed. There was some consultation going on around the generals and the officers. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] When (15)General Krstic moved from the place where he spent most of the time, that is, point "H", and when he moved away from there, did you have an opportunity to see what he was going to do? • A.: Mainly he walked around and looked whether (20)everything was going according to plan, but I didn't see what he did exactly.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Right. I
believe you have provided us with a great deal of
information. I think that Judge Riad has yet another
(25)question.
JUDGE RIAD: Witness F, I'm not going to prolong your discomfort much longer, but to the best of your knowledge, and this is a question of general (5)assessment and if you remember: Was General Krstic present all the time in all the events during these two days, or was he -- because you mentioned that he was there when they were distributing sweets to the children in front of the camera, and he was there to (10)meet important people -- but apart from that, you never referred to him. You would say that General Krstic wanted to enter the compound to see how many refugees were hiding. It was Krstic that was entering, not Mladic. And in other cases, he was looking whether (15)everything was according to plan. You referred to Krstic as if he was in control and there was no Mladic. Was Mladic not there anymore? • A.: I didn't see him anymore. I think he was one of the responsibles in assigning duties to the (20)military. JUDGE RIAD: So it appeared to you that it was Krstic who was in charge in the execution, and he had the control?
• A.: Yes, I think he was one of the big officers
(25)who were in charge, yes, who had been assigned this
JUDGE RIAD: Was it apparent that there was somebody higher than him, someone who Mladic considered higher in hierarchy? (5) • A.: Yes. That's right. JUDGE RIAD: No. My question is: Was there someone higher than Krstic in hierarchy, between Mladic Krstic? • A.: Not at that moment at that point and in that (10)place, but I think there was some evaluation going on with the chief of staff in higher levels. JUDGE RIAD: But not at this level, not on the ground. • A.: Not directly there. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Riad. Witness F, only a point of clarification. Exhibit 5/2, on which you marked the angles at which (20)you observed, and for the record, can one say that basically your angle of observation was towards west or north, to the east, but not to the south? Yes?
• A.: That's right. My view towards the south was
blocked by the high tower on the compound. I could
(25)look over the roof of the compound till the high tower
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I see. In any event, I believe the exhibit and the record show quite clearly that your field of visibility (5)went in three directions, except for the south. Very well, Witness F. You have finished your testimony. You testified for a long time here. You lived through these events. The Prosecution, the Defence, and the Bench and the Chamber asked you a (10)number of questions. But is there something that you would like to say and yet have had no opportunity to say before in answering questions? If there is anything of that kind, you can do so now. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you very (15)much. Again, for me, after five years, this is the first time I can talk about these photographs. Hardly anybody knew about it. I'm very grateful to you for listening to my story, and I think this is a very good thing for history and for human rights. Thank you very (20)much.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I also
hope, we all hope, Witness F, that it will also be good
for you and for your peace of mind, having been able to
say all those things, to recount all those things that
(25)you have kept to yourself for such a long time. We
THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Before you release the witness, I am referring to 5/2A, as marked (5)by the witness, 5/3A, 59, 60, 61, 62, and 63 are all Prosecution Exhibits. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We would (10)tender those into evidence. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, any objection? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President. (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] These
exhibits were tendered and admitted. Mr. Dubuisson,
you will take care of all the bureaucratic measures
that are needed.
Witness F, thank you. I should also like to
(20)thank the interpreters who were with us. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, before the break, what do we have next?
MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President,
(25)Your Honours; good morning, counsel.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In open session or do we need any protection measures? MR. HARMON: Yes. That's correct. Both (5)witnesses will need protection measures. The first will be in public session with face distortion and a pseudonym; the second, we are requesting a closed session. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] (10)Mr. Petrusic, do you have any objection as to the application of protective measures? We know that in principle you do not object to protective measures, but it has to be made clear for the record. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, (15)Mr. President. Before we began this morning, we didn't have an opportunity to consult, so I do not know the order of witnesses. So this should be perhaps left for after the break. We should be made familiar with the order of witnesses, because we do not know which (20)particular witness is requesting what protective measures. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, can you respond to that?
MR. HARMON: I was under the impression that
(25)we did provide the order of witnesses, but if it's
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, but as far as we understood you yesterday, there may have been some changes that occurred in the meantime. (5)Mr. Harmon, is the order, therefore, the same as yesterday? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think that Mr. Harmon has suggested that you can solve the issue during the break. However, let me remind you of (10)one thing that is quite important for our work, that is, how we should proceed, because during the break we can undertake all the necessary measures for the next witness. So Mr. Harmon said that he could tell you everything about the next witness during the break. (15)Mr. Dubuisson, I hope that all the measures will be taken so that we can start right away with the witness once we come back from the break, and I hope that protective measures will be applied. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Yes. Very (20)well, Mr. President. We will be sitting in public session for the next witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] A 20-minute break. --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m. (25)
--- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly (5)declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: BEGO ADEMOVIC JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be (10)seated now. Are you comfortable, sir? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I am. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I hope you have been well treated here in The Hague. (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Excellent. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We shall try to do the same. Witness, I should like to thank you first for coming here, and let me just explain to you that you will first be answering questions put to (20)you by Mr. Harmon, who is representing the Prosecution, as soon as we have made sure that everything is in order and that we can communicate properly. I can see that Mr. Harmon is satisfied that everything is okay. Mr. Harmon, you have the floor. (25)
MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President,
• EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Sir, could you state your name? • A.: Ademovic, Bego. (5) • Q.: How do you spell your last name? • A.: A-d-e-m-o-v-i-c, "Bego" being my first name. • Q.: How old are you, sir? • A.: I'm 58. MR. HARMON: I didn't get a translation in (10)the English. • A.: Fifty-eight. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Could you tell us; are you a Muslim by faith, Mr. Ademovic? (15) • A.: Yes, I am. • Q.: And can you tell us about your education? How far did you go in school? • A.: I have the first four forms of the elementary school, and I'm a driver by profession. (20) • Q.: Do you have some difficulty in reading? • A.: Well, I can't read very well. • Q.: Now, you said that you were a driver by profession. How many years were you -- • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: -- how many years were you a driver?
• Q.: And what kind of vehicles did you drive? • A.: All kinds of transport vehicles and buses. • Q.: And where are were you employed as a driver? (5) • A.: I worked at the Vihor Company and the Partizanski Put Company in Belgrade. • Q.: And where is the Vihor Company located? • A.: In Bratunac. • Q.: And how long were you employed as a driver in (10)Bratunac? • A.: I worked there for less than a year. I mean, I worked less than a year in the Partizanski Put Company. • Q.: And, therefore, did you work for a number of (15)years in Bratunac as a driver? • A.: Well, yes. I retired as a driver. • Q.: Now, before the war started, where did you live? • A.: In the village of Dzile, the municipality of (20)Vlasenica. • Q.: Now, are you married? • A.: Yes, and I'm a father of four children.
• Q.: Now, I'd like to draw your attention to the
events that took place before the fall of the
(25)Srebrenica enclave, and let me ask you; before the fall
• A.: Yes, I was. • Q.: Where is that in relation to the town of (5)Srebrenica? • A.: It is situated in the direction of the Radava Mountain, in the vicinity of Srebrenica. • Q.: And how far away is it from the town of Srebrenica, that particular village? (10) • A.: About ten kilometres, I couldn't be more precise. Maybe less than ten kilometres. • Q.: When you were living in that village, with whom were you living? • A.: With my mother, with my uncle, my wife, my (15)two sons, my two daughters-in-law, and my four grandchildren. • Q.: Now, at some point in time, Mr. Ademovic, did the Bosnian Serb army come into the enclave and did you leave that village? (20) • A.: I'm sorry. I don't understand your question. • Q.: At some point in time, did you flee from the village of Kutezero?
• A.: I was living in Dzile, and then I fled Dzile
(25)after the fall of the Srebrenica municipality, and then
• Q.: And with whom did you flee the village? (5) • A.: I fled with my daughters-in-law, and with my mother, and my uncle had died before the fall of Srebrenica, and our grandchildren were with us as well. • Q.: And why did you flee? (10) • A.: Well, I fled from Chetniks. I didn't want to be slaughtered by them. • Q.: Where did you go? • A.: We went to Potocari. • Q.: Now, did all of you who had fled from your (15)village arrive in Potocari? • A.: I don't know about that. • Q.: Did your mother arrive in Potocari? • A.: My mother couldn't walk, so she couldn't continue, and she remained in the woods, and that's (20)where she died. • Q.: Now, let me ask you; do you remember the day when you arrived in Potocari? • A.: It was on a Tuesday, on the 11th. • Q.: Was that the 11th of July, 1995? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: At the Zinc Factory in Potocari. There were lots of people there. (5) • Q.: Now, when you arrived in the Zinc Factory, was there any shooting going on in and around the Zinc Factory? • A.: There was some shelling and some gunfire. People got injured by shells, fragments of shells. (10)There may have been casualties or fatalities, but I'm not sure. • Q.: Okay. And when you arrived in Potocari on the 11th of July, were there other refugees in and around the Zinc Factory? (15) • A.: Yes. Yes, a lot of people, a crowd of people. • Q.: Are you able to estimate how many people there were? • A.: Over 2.000 or 3.000, probably more than (20)that. • Q.: Did you and your wife and family members take refuge inside the Zinc Factory or outside on the grounds around the Zinc Factory?
• A.: Around the Zinc Factory, coming from the
(25)direction of Bratunac.
• A.: No, they didn't. • Q.: When did members of the Bosnian Serb army (5)arrive in Potocari? • A.: On the following day, after 10.00, on Wednesday. • Q.: So that would be the 12th of July; is that correct? (10) • A.: Yes, the 12th of July. • Q.: Now, could you see in which direction the Bosnian Serb soldiers were coming? • A.: We were first told to clear the asphalt area, that soldiers would be coming from the direction of (15)Srebrenica, and they came in in a column of two, and then they continued towards Bratunac. And then Chetniks started arriving from all directions. • Q.: Now, did you recognise any members of the Bosnian Serb army who had come in to Potocari? (20) • A.: I recognised only a colleague of mine from Vihor, Lazic. He worked there as a bus driver, and he was working in the reserve section.
• Q.: When you say "the reserve section," do you
mean the reserve section of the bus company or the
(25)reserve section of the army?
• Q.: And when you say "reserve section," what are you referring to? • A.: Oh, he was wearing clothes, this particular (5)suit. • Q.: Can you describe the particular suit he was wearing? • A.: It was grey in colour. It was a warm kind of clothing. (10) • Q.: Okay. Did you see anybody else? • A.: I couldn't recognise anyone else. I didn't recognise anyone in the column. • Q.: Did you, later on, notice any Bosnian Serb soldiers you knew by name who may not have walked in in (15)the column but may have been walking amongst the people? • A.: There was a huge crowd of people, and I knew only knew Zoran Mirosavljevic. • Q.: How was he dressed? (20) • A.: He was wearing a camouflage suit.
• Q.: Now, let me ask you to focus your attention
on that day again, the 12th of July, and ask you if you
saw a conversation taking place between a Bosnian Serb
soldier and a family of Bosnian Muslims. Did you see a
(25)conversation taking place, and could you describe to
• A.: Yes. There were lots of Chetniks walking around, quite a few people were sitting next to me. There was one man, together with his wife and their two (5)children, son and daughter. Two soldiers approached them. They said hello to the man and the girl, and they inquired about their health. And they said to the man, "Let us take your wife and your daughter so that they can be put on the first buses," and the man said, (10)"No. We're not going to separate." But they grabbed the girl and they took her away from him. The wife fainted, and the man was motionless. He was simply watching this thing happen. And the girl was taken away in the direction of Srebrenica, from the Zinc (15)Factory. • Q.: Do you know what happened to that girl? • A.: No, I don't know. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges how those soldiers were dressed? (20) • A.: They were wearing camouflage suits. • Q.: What colour was the camouflage? • A.: It was multi-coloured. • Q.: Was there any particular dominant colour, any particular ... (25)
• A.: It wasn't very visible. I'm not a specialist
• Q.: Okay. Do you know the kind of camouflage uniforms worn by the army and the kind of camouflage uniforms worn by the police? Do you know the (5)difference between those two? • A.: No. I cannot tell the difference. • Q.: Did you know the names of those particular soldiers who took away the girl? • A.: No. I don't know them at all. (10) • Q.: Now, while you were in the Zinc compound area, did you see other Serb soldiers walking among the refugees? • A.: I didn't see them do anything. They were just cursing at people, calling them names, telling (15)them that they would be slaughtered, that they would end out their lives there. They were telling them to leave the area, that it was a Serb country, that it was part of the Greater Serbia. • Q.: Now, how were the soldiers who were making (20)those curses, do you remember how they were dressed? • A.: The same. The same kind of suit. • Q.: Camouflage suits; is that correct? • A.: Camouflage.
• Q.: Could you see any particular marks or badges
(25)or patches on those soldiers?
• Q.: Do you remember what kind of badge Zoran had (5)on his arm? Could you describe it? • A.: I cannot describe it. I only saw that he had some kind of insignia, but I wasn't paying attention to it. • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, at some point in time when you (10)were walking in and around the Zinc Factory, did you see a violent incident involving a child? • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what you saw? • A.: Yes, I can. (15) • Q.: Please, tell the Judges what you saw.
• A.: After they'd taken away the girl, the
situation was a bit calmer. I walked around the Zinc
Factory -- I wanted to get to my wife and my
daughter-in-law -- and I went by a soldier where there
(20)was many people. There was a woman carrying a child in
her arms, and the soldier asked her whether the baby's
name was Alija. She said it wasn't. Then he inquired
whether it was a boy, and the woman said yes. Then he
bent down, took a knife out, he took the baby and hit
(25)the baby with a knife here, like this. I turned around
• Q.: When you say "he hit the baby here," where did he strike the baby with the knife? • A.: Here [indicates], in the chest. Under the (5)head, near the neck. • Q.: What happened then? • A.: I went back. I didn't know what happened then. I only learned that the child was dead. But I fled in the opposite direction. (10) • Q.: Now, can you tell the Judges how that soldier was dressed? • A.: He had the same kind of suit as others were wearing. • Q.: That is a camouflage suit. (15) • A.: Yes, camouflage. • Q.: At the time that that baby was murdered, were there other refugees in and around that crime scene? • A.: Yes. You couldn't move through them. They were standing next to each other. (20) • Q.: What was the reaction of the people who saw this killing of this child? • A.: There wasn't much reaction. After that, it was as if things were normal.
• Q.: Okay. And later on in the day -- let me ask
(25)you this question, Mr. Ademovic: About what time of
• A.: I didn't have a watch, but I think that it could have been around 12.00. • Q.: Now, did you, that day, attempt to go get (5)some water for your family? • A.: Yes, I did. I went up the hill, in the direction of Srebrenica, and wanted to take some water. I also wanted to get some food. I wanted to find something to cook for my children. And then I was (10)stopped by a soldier. And this took place before 10.00. There were Serb troops over there, and there was a kind of ribbon which prevented us from moving on. So I turned around and went back. • Q.: Where did you go? (15) • A.: I went outside the compound of the Zinc Factory. • Q.: And where outside the compound of the Zinc Factory did you go? • A.: Outside the Zinc Factory. I mean, up the (20)hill, towards a barn. There were a lot of people there. The situation was somewhat calmer at that point in time, and people were moving around. They went up to a meadow, and they were drinking and eating, but they were mostly silent. (25)
• Q.: Were you with anybody?
• Q.: At some point in time, did a Serb soldier appear? (5) • A.: Yes, they appeared from behind. We spent some time sitting there, and at one point somebody said that Serb soldiers were coming. And people fled to the Zinc Factory. And the two of us, we went to a barn and we hid there. And we didn't follow the people who went (10)towards the Zinc Factory, and they didn't see us. • Q.: So you were hidden in a barn or near a barn, on a hillside, overlooking the Zinc Factory; is that correct? • A.: There was a shed below the stable, and we hid (15)behind that shed. • Q.: What did you see when you hid behind that shed?
• A.: Two Serb soldiers followed the people, and
they went in through a hole of the Zinc Factory fence.
(20)They took three Bosniak men from that -- through that
hole, and they moved in the direction of Aljo's house.
We saw them, and we were actually watching in their
direction. There were between 10 and 15 people there,
between the Zinc Factory and Aljo's house. There was a
(25)kind of ramp that had been prepared there, and they
• Q.: How many people were involved in this killing (10)operation? • A.: I couldn't exactly tell. They all looked the same. They were wearing the same kind of clothing, they were more or less of the same age. There were between eight and ten of them. I don't know if this (15)was done always by the same person, or rather the same persons, but they were there, lined up. And I couldn't tell you anything more precise. • Q.: Do you recall what the men who were doing the killings were wearing? (20) • A.: This same kind of clothing; the one that was worn by other soldiers. • Q.: Camouflage clothing? • A.: Yes, camouflage clothing.
• Q.: Now, after you witnessed these first three
(25)men being killed, tell the Judges what happened.
• Q.: Did the truck with the bodies leave the area? • A.: Yes, on several occasions, and it would come (10)back. • Q.: And after the truck left the area, what happened? • A.: The truck would leave the area, and then it would come back again. The last time it came, it was (15)already at dusk. • Q.: Let me ask you, Mr. Ademovic, how long was it that you watched killings take place from your location near the shed? • A.: It must have been, I'm not too sure, but it (20)must have been two hours. More. More. • Q.: Now, during this period of time, did you or your colleague, Mr. Karic, keep a count of how many people you had seen murdered?
• A.: Dzemal Karic had a box of cigarettes, Drina,
(25)from a Sarajevo factory, and he had a short pencil.
• Q.: Are you able to estimate the number of people you saw killed in the fashion which you've described? • A.: What he added up was the correct sum, 83, but (10)they continued taking people away, and then we could not write anymore. But there must have been over 100. • Q.: Now, please continue describing what occurred at that location.
• A.: Night had already fallen, but it wasn't quite
(15)dark yet. I knew those people from sight. I didn't
know their names. And the last batch, in it I
recognised Hazim Lonjinac in that last group of five
men. And then all of a sudden noise started, and those
people came back alive, that group of five men. And
(20)they left. And we entered the Zinc Factory. And I
found Hazim Lonjinac, who had been with that group,
with a child in his arms. He's some kind of a
son-in-law of mine. And I told him, "Son-in-law, I've
already mourned you." And he said that an officer had
(25)come and attacked those Chetniks, and he gave me his
(5) • Q.: What happened to the assassins? • A.: They stayed there -- well, they left later on. As soon as they stopped killing, they just vanished. • Q.: Now, you mentioned the name of an individual (10)who may be related to you by marriage, Hazim Lonjinac. And that's the man who you have identified as -- • A.: Yes, my niece -- he's my son-in-law. My niece is married to him. • Q.: Do you know what happened to Hazim Lonjinac? (15) • A.: Don't I? My daughter-in-law told me, the wife of my son who was killed. My two daughters-in-law and my wife went towards Kladanj that night. And my daughter-in-law told me that she had got off the bus at some point, and several men were standing in a group (20)next to a stone boundary. And when the headlights went on, then she recognised Hazim in that group. • Q.: Do you know the location where Hazim was standing in that group?
• A.: I didn't see it myself, but from what my
(25)daughter-in-law told me, next to the asphalt, up the
• Q.: Was there a name for that location? • A.: Luke. Some people call it Luke. I've heard people call it Luke. (5) • Q.: Now, let me return to the time when you came down from the hill and after you saw Hazim. Did you find your wife and your other family members in and around the Zinc Factory? • A.: No. And I never saw them again, until I (10)arrived in Kladanj. And they had left that night. • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, I'd like you to describe, if you would, to the Judges the night between the 12th and the morning of the 13th. Can you describe the scene as you saw it? (15)
• A.: In the Zinc Factory compound -- nobody spent
the night there, but across the asphalt, in the
transport compound. And I was in the middle. All the
people were around me. There was moonlight, and the
visibility was better than now. And from all sides
(20)Chetniks were coming, carrying torches with them,
flashlights. And people lying down were tired. They
would pull the people up by the hair and look at their
face. If they would like the face, they would take him
away. If they didn't recognise him, they would leave
(25)him behind. But they mostly took them away. And
• Q.: Now, when you say, "The Chetniks were coming," can you be more precise? Who were the (5)Chetniks? How were they dressed? • A.: Chetniks. That was no army. Those are criminals. They are called the Bosnian Serb army, but that's a crime. They are beasts. They are not humans. A man, a human being, has a soul, and those (10)people didn't have anything. Heavy crimes. What army? • Q.: How were those individuals who came in in the night with those flashlights, how were they dressed? Do you remember? (15) • A.: All military. I could have seen two or three in civilian clothes. • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, let me now turn to the morning of the 13th of July and focus your attention on the early morning hours. What did you do first thing in (20)the morning of the 13th of July?
• A.: I didn't sleep, nor did anybody else. The
dawn broke and our heads hurt to a bursting point.
Down there, there was the River Krizevica, and I
started down to wash myself. There was no Chetniks
(25)around. And above me was a woman screaming like crazy,
• Q.: You saw two individuals, one of whom was mutilated and a second man who was hanging. Did I understand your testimony correctly? • A.: Yes, that's right. You understood me. (15) • Q.: What did you do after you saw those two sights? • A.: I saw buses and I headed there straight away. I reached the rope, and they had separated -- many of us continued separating, so I reached the (20)rope. It was tight there, but I bent down and passed under the rope, and nobody said anything. So I reached the bus, and its driver was an acquaintance of mine before the war, a fellow driver. So I sat next to him and headed for Kladanj. (25)
• Q.: Let me interrupt you there for just a
MR. HARMON: And I'd like the usher to put these on the ELMO, Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/10, 5/13 and 5/11. (5) • Q.: These relate to the killings that you described earlier. MR. HARMON: Which exhibit is that, please? THE USHER: 5/10. MR. HARMON: (10) • Q.: Do you recognise Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/10? • A.: I do. Where shall I show it? Here, this is Aljo's house [indicates] This is also Aljo's house. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, let him use the ELMO. (15) • Q.: Would you please point to Aljo's house, and then I'll describe it to the Judges. • A.: This is Aljo's house [indicates] MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness has put the pointer on the house that is directly in the (20)middle of the exhibit. • Q.: Would you go to Exhibit 5/10, please. I'm sorry, 5/13. Do you recognise that photograph?
• A.: This is the stable. This is the shed where I
was, from where I watched. Down here
[indicates], down
(25)there, there should have been the Zinc Factory, but
(5) MR. HARMON: Just for the record, the witness indicated with his pointer -- • Q.: -- and would you point again where you were hidden when observed these events took, please? Just put the pointer on the ELMO where you were hidden? (10) • A.: Here [indicates] MR. HARMON: The witness has put his pointer on the left-hand side of this structure. There appears to be some perpendicular wooden slats at the left side of that building, and that's where he said he was. (15) • Q.: Is that also the location where Mr. Karic was? • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, could you place Prosecutor's 5/11 on the ELMO. (20) • Q.: Do you recognise anything in that particular photograph?
• A.: Here's the fence through which the Chetniks
were taking away the Bosniaks, through this wire fence
MR. HARMON: Now let me, for the record -- the witness, when he was talking about the fence, he was pointing to a fence that is on the -- more to the (5)right side than to the left side. It appears to have a hole in it. And when he pointed and referred to Aljo's house, he was referring to the house, the roof of which is on the left-hand side. It's the tallest structure in the photograph. (10) • Q.: Thank you very much, Mr. Ademovic. You can turn around and we can continue with your testimony. • A.: Thank you. • Q.: Before we get, Mr. Ademovic, to your actually leaving the enclave on a bus, let me ask you, did (15)anybody, prior to your getting on a bus, come to you and give you a choice, as to whether you could stay in Srebrenica and Potocari, or whether you could go to any particular location you wanted? • A.: No way. All them, they were shouting at us, (20)cursing us, cursing Aljo, saying, "Why didn't you go with Fikret? Perhaps you would have survived." Here, nobody -- no, we were all leaving, getting away from knives.
• Q.: Now, let me ask you, please, tell me where
(25)you went. You said you got on a bus. Tell the Judges
• A.: I only recognised the fellow driver, that one, and all those people there, I wasn't really (5)looking. Perhaps I knew somebody, but I can't remember. I only remember the driver, Raco Madzarevic. • Q.: And he was a colleague of yours, or a former colleague; is that correct? (10) • A.: It is. • Q.: He was a Serb. • A.: He was. • Q.: Tell me what happened. • A.: Where? (15) • Q.: Once you got on the bus.
• A.: I got onto the bus, I sat somewhere in the
middle of the bus, and when the bus was full, he set
off. When we passed by Bratunac, he called me to sit
next to him and I sat next to him. He offered me a
(20)cigarette and said, "Well, how about you? Are your
sons alive?" I said, "I don't know." "Where did you
go?" And I said, "Through the woods." And he said
"Not good. There was some bad fighting with our army
and there was also some fighting between your troops.
(25)Lots of people died. I hope somebody is still alive.
• Q.: Let me ask you some questions to clarify your testimony. Who was Pantic? Was he a Serb? (20) • A.: A Serb. • Q.: Did you know him -- you knew him from before the war; is that correct? • A.: Yes, we knew each other well before the war.
• Q.: And you said that you saw 20 people. How
(25)were their hands? Could you show the Judges --
• Q.: Could you tell the Judges how they were positioned and what position their hands were in? • A.: They were all in civilian clothes, and they (5)their hands like this [indicates] Nobody was driving them down. They were coming down the hill by themselves, down to where Pantic is. MR. HARMON: And when the witness said "like this," he put both his hands together behind the back (10)of his head, so the record is perfectly clear. • Q.: Now, did Pantic put some people on the bus? • A.: Two young boys, some 12 or 13 years old. • Q.: Do you know why he put those young lads on the bus? (15) • A.: I know nothing. I don't know the reason. • Q.: Did the bus then drive away from Sandici? • A.: Yes. • Q.: In which direction did it drive? • A.: Towards Konjevic Polje, Milici, Nova Kasaba, (20)Vlasenica. • Q.: Did you see anything unusual on the way to Konjevic Polje?
• A.: I did. Before Kaldrmica, to our right, there
were about two or three buses standing, and to the
(25)left, there were the Chetnik troops, so that Raco
• Q.: What happened then?
• A.: And I watched from the buses how they were
(10)taking off men, and there were some women. And the
buses started, and Raco started towards the playground,
near Nova Kasaba. Around 1.000 Muslim Bosniaks were
walking in a column, with their hands like this
• Q.: Let me interrupt you right there because I
need to clarify a couple points in your testimony.
(25)You said you saw about 1.000 men. Could you
• A.: Muslims, and Bosnian Serbs were driving them. (5) • Q.: And in which direction were they going? I'm afraid I missed that part of your testimony. Were they going in a particular direction, to a particular location? • A.: Towards Kasaba, before the playground. (10)That's what I saw. Towards Kasaba. • Q.: When you say "playground," what kind of a playground is it? • A.: Football, a football stadium. MR. HARMON: Again, for the record, when this (15)witness indicated that the men had their hands, again, in a particular position, he made a gesture for the Court to see, which was both hands behind the back of the head. • Q.: Now, Mr. Ademovic, where did you stop that (20)bus journey? • A.: At Luke. • Q.: What happened there?
• A.: The troops there surrounded the bus, and Raco
got out that brandy from the glove compartment and two
(25)big tins and said, "Bego, give it to that woman, to put
• Q.: At some point in time, did you help a woman, as well? • A.: When I was leaving that bus, those troops, (15)they shouted at me to come back asking, "Would I mind taking along a woman who had suffered a stroke?" and I said "Sure." So I did. • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, while you were at Luke, did you see anything happen to a young girl? (20) • A.: I did. I saw a Chetnik dragging her back. She had torn all her clothes. She could have been 18, 19, and she was screaming, "Uncle Bego, help me. Don't let them do it." But I kept silent, I wasn't saying anything, and he dragged her behind. (25)
• Q.: Did you know that young girl?
• Q.: Now, as you made your way toward the free territory, did you see any Bosnian Serb soldiers you knew? (5) • A.: Two were sitting to the right of the road, and he said, "Bego, take his wife, she has suffered a stroke," and I've shared lots of meals with them in their house, so all right. So they said, "Bego, come sit down. Have some water. You'll faint." So I sat (10)down, he gave me a box of cigarettes, and I had a brief rest, and that's how I went on my journey. • Q.: Do you know the name or nickname of that particular soldier? • A.: I don't know his name. He used to work for (15)the bauxite. That's what they called him. • Q.: Sorry. I didn't hear what they called him. What did they call him? • A.: Lega. That was his nickname or perhaps his last name. I don't know. (20) • Q.: Thank you very much, Mr. Ademovic. I've concluded my examination. My colleagues will ask you some questions. • A.: Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
(25)Mr. Petrusic, how long will you need for your
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, it will be Mr. Visnjic who will cross-examine the witness. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. So I'm asking the same question of Mr. Visnjic. How long will you take? I'm asking because of the break. Should we make the break now or not? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, (10)I was about to suggest a break because we have to resolve some technical matters with the technical booth, so as to get ready for it, and I should like to suggest a break. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. (15)We shall now make a 15-minute break, then. --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. Ademovic, we are now going to continue with your
(20)evidence. Let me just remind you that you have to
speak slowly because we have interpreters here who are
interpreting what you say, and you have to speak
slowly. I hope Mr. Visnjic will do the same. And
we'll also show you how to do it, how to speak slowly.
(25)Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor.
• CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, I know it is hard for you to be (5)reminded of these events, but unfortunately we have to ask you a few details, we have to ask you to explain the events that took place in July 1995 in somewhat greater detail. Mr. Ademovic, could you please explain to the (10)Chamber whether you have given any statement about these events on any previous occasion? • A.: Yes, I have. • Q.: How many? • A.: I don't know how many statements I gave to (15)the Tribunal, but I remember giving a statement to the authorities in Tuzla on one occasion. • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, the usher will now show you Exhibit 6. Exhibit 6 is your statement of the 18th of August, 1995, the statement that you gave to the State (20)Security Service in Tuzla.
• A.: Yes. Yes, I can tell you all about it. I
don't have to read it. I'll tell you how it happened.
I was called in Tuzla, they told me to come to an
office, which was a small office, a small room. There
(25)were four of us, three men and one woman. The
• Q.: Mr. Ademovic, were you ever called again? • A.: You mean by our people, by the SUP people, the people from Tuzla? • Q.: Yes. (25)
• A.: No, they didn't.
• A.: I gave several statements to the Tribunal. I don't know how many. (5) • Q.: While you were giving your statement to the Tribunal, was anybody from the Bosniak police present on that occasion? • A.: I gave the statement in the SUP, in Tuzla. • Q.: While you were giving the statement to the (10)Tribunal, was anybody present, anybody from the Tuzla Ministry of the Interior, present in the office? • A.: I don't know. I mean, they were wearing uniforms. They were people from the SUP, people from the Ministry of the Interior. (15) • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, do you then deny everything that was said in the statement of the 18th of August, 1995? • A.: I do not deny everything. There have been errors, that is true. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. Visnjic, sorry to interrupt, but I believe the
witness has already answered that question. If you ask
specific questions, you will get specific answers. I
believe that the witness has already explained these
(25)things.
• Q.: Mr. Ademovic, let me read you a passage from (5)your statement of the 18th of August, I mean, the statement you said was a bit problematic, and I should like to hear an explanation from you. I should like you to explain the differences from that statement and what you're saying now. (10) • A.: I don't know. I don't remember what happened. • Q.: Will you please wait for my question. • A.: Yes. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] For the (15)interpreters, the Serbian version of the text is on page 2.
• Q.: "In the meantime, I ended up in the Express
Transport compound, from where I saw a Chetnik, blond,
short, medium build, close to the asphalt road. He
(20)snatched a three-or four-month old child from its
mother's arms and smashed it on the cement. He then
took the woman by the hair, put her head across his
knee and slit her throat. The two men from the crowd
wrapped the corpses in a blanket and took them away
(25)along the Bratunac road."
(5) • Q.: Yes, but the event, the way you related it today, is not the same one that is described in the statement? • A.: I don't know how it happened. I only heard people describe the event later on, how this Naser's (10)close relative was killed, together with her child. • Q.: You told us about an event -- you told us about this event today, and you told us that a baby was killed by a soldier in the Zinc Company? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: However, this is not the same event. • A.: Well, these are two different things. • Q.: What do you mean, "two different things"? • A.: Well, I can only say that the child -- I can only claim that the child was killed. (20) • Q.: Did you ever mention this event, the way you described it today, to the investigative authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina? • A.: I may have told them that I had heard about the event. (25)
• Q.: But I'm asking you about this particular one
• A.: Yes. I believe that I told them so. THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between question and answer. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Visnjic, but Witness, please, try to make a pause before you start answering the questions. This will be much easier for the interpreters. (10)You speak the same language, the counsel and you, and I know that it is very easy for the two of you to communicate speedily, but you have to bear in mind that there are interpreters between you. If you can please bear this fact in mind, the Chamber will be (15)grateful. I could perhaps motion to you, I can tell you either to slow down, like this [indicates], or to make a pause. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] I should like to remind the interpreters to say "Question" and "Answer" (20)because sometimes it is very difficult to distinguish between the two. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Mr. Visnjic, you may continue.
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Thank you,
(25)Mr. President.
(15) • A.: I already told you that there were a lot of people there, and I told you that the people who took my statement didn't actually listen to what I was stating. They were flirting with this young woman. I don't know what they wrote down. This is not what I (20)said, this is not what I saw, and this is not what I told them. • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, you described an event today in which a Serb soldier took away a Muslim girl from her parents. (25)
• A.: Yes. That took place in the Zinc Factory.
• Q.: Yes. That is the event I have in mind. Could you please tell us whether the event that you have described today and the event as it is described (5)in the statement, if such an event should have happened, are one and the same event? • A.: I was just about to explain this to you. This is something different. This is not what I said. • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, I should like to go back to the (10)12th of July, 1995 and your whereabouts on that day. I think that the record shows that while you were near Aljo's house, that you reached that particular location at around 10.00, but I don't think it is correct. • A.: No, this is not correct. I got there on (15)Tuesday, at 11.00 p.m. I arrived in Potocari, in the Zinc Factory, on that evening. • Q.: Yes. Very well. I should like to discuss the incident of the killing of a number of Muslims by Serb soldiers in the vicinity of Aljo's house. Do you (20)know which event I have in mind? • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: When exactly did you reach the position from which you could observe the event?
• A.: Well, I didn't have a watch, but it could
(25)have been sometime after 3.00, 3.00 p.m. Yes, it was
• Q.: Could you give us an idea as to how long this event lasted? • A.: I don't know whether you followed my (5)testimony. It was a bit -- it was between two and three hours. But I didn't have a watch, so I couldn't tell you more precisely. • Q.: I should now like to discuss a few details of that event, if you can remember them. (10)You spoke about a kind of ramp. I more or less have an idea as to what you had in mind, but could you explain to the Judges what it was? • A.: There were two -- there was a kind of scaffold that had been prepared for the killing, and (15)there was a beam across which people were put, with their hands behind their backs. The Chetniks were holding their hands behind their backs. There was a third Chetnik holding them by their head, and there was a fourth one who was chopping their heads off and (20)throwing them on a pile. • Q.: You said they used a kind of sword.
• A.: Well, some people call it a sword, some
people call it a knife. You probably know exactly what
I'm talking about. Some people even call it a
(25)machete. We have hundreds of names for one particular
• Q.: Yes, but I believe that there is a difference between a knife and a sword and a saber. Could you please explain the difference to the Judges? (5)
• A.: Well, I don't know what more you want. There
is this thing -- I must say that I didn't come close to
those men. I had not had any sleep for five days
because of the shelling, because of the commotion and
everything, but I could see a huge blade like this • Q.: I know it's a bit uncomfortable for you to (15)remember these details, but could you tell us how it happened, this chopping off of heads? • A.: Yes, the same way -- they chopped off people's heads the way you chop off heads of animals. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] (20)Mr. Visnjic, what is the objective of your questions? I mean, how can we be assisted by these details?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Your Honours,
the witness has mentioned the approximate time of the
event, and he also gave us an approximate number of
(25)people that were killed in this way.
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, (5)Mr. President. • Q.: Mr. Ademovic, I'm now going to read a portion from your statement given on the 23rd of May, 1996, and I should like you to confirm this passage. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] It is Exhibit (10)7, page 3, last paragraph of the Serbo-Croat version. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] This statement will be marked as Exhibit D7. • A.: Why don't you read it to me? I can't read very well. (15) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: "In between the executions, the group of soldiers was drinking and eating." • A.: Yes, they were. • Q.: "It looked like it was for them a kind of (20)entertainment --" • A.: Yes, it was like a wedding. They would drink and play amongst themselves in between two killings. • Q.: "The same two soldiers went to fetch another group of men, and the same event happened again." (25)
• A.: Yes, they brought another group of men.
(5) • A.: Well, not less than four, not more than six or seven. Somewhere between four and seven. • Q.: How long did it take them to go and bring that group? Well, the Judge has just told you -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me, (10)Witness. Could we make something into a rule? Before you begin to answer, take one minute to think. Can you understand what I'm saying? So Mr. Visnjic asks you a question -- THE WITNESS: [Int.] I do (15)understand. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Just imagine that you have to take one minute to think about your answer, and then answer. Okay? All right? Very well. (20) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I didn't have a watch. I couldn't really time it. I couldn't know. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.]
• Q.: One more question, Mr. Ademovic, about that
incident. You said that bodies were put in some
(25)camouflage bags, or something like that, if I
• A.: Yes. Yes. • Q.: What kind of sacks were they? • A.: Well, they are sky blue. They are more or (5)less like this chair here. • Q.: Why camouflage? I don't understand. Was it something with the interpretation? • A.: Well, that's the colour, that's what I call it. (10) • Q.: Who is Aljo Hasanovic, Mr. Ademovic? • A.: Aljo Hasanovic, the owner of the house. They were slaughtering next to his house. Aljo. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] I have no further questions, Mr. President. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, do you have any additional questions? MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, I have no further questions. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge (20)Riad. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Bego Ademovic, good afternoon. Can you hear me? • A.: Good afternoon. I can hear you very well. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: I just want to follow with you
• A.: I understand your question. A proper army wages a war against an army and does not just kill, does not mutilate, does not rape the young girls, does (15)not cut arms, does not gouge out eyes, does not behead people. So that to me, they're wild men. No army, they are.
JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Please bear with me. It
so happened in previous wars, perhaps you were not
(20)born, there was the Second World War, where some armies
exterminated people and they were still called armies.
So do you consider that this was just bands, wild
bands, or was it in the form of an army? I'm speaking
from the formation side, not their morality. I
(25)understand your revolt, but we're not discussing their
• A.: The Chetnik leadership, the top, from Milosevic in Belgrade, organised something like a hoard (5)of miscreants to exterminate the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, to create Greater Serbia. When such a case happened, I wasn't born then, but the same thing was in 1941. In my village, 73 people burnt to death in their houses, and 61 survived, and the tradition (10)goes on. That's what my parents told me. I don't know. They killed my uncle and brothers and sisters. And what do I know? Lots of my relatives. JUDGE RIAD: Well, that brings me to another question, because you also mentioned that the soldiers, (15)when they stopped you and cursed you and your group, they told you, "This is a Serb country." Did they tell you what you were supposed to do, where you were supposed to go?
• A.: The soldier did not stop me. That was in
(20)Potocari. When they stopped us, they did not insult
anybody, they did not offend anybody on the road. And
this happened in Potocari, on Wednesday, after 10.00.
They were cursing our balija mothers, "You'll all be
butchered. You will be burned in acid. This is our
(25)Serb fatherland. This is Greater Serbia."
• A.: Well, he meant if they liked somebody, they would get them off, so to kill them, to rape. JUDGE RIAD: In fact, you also mentioned that sometimes, and you gave two different meanings, you (10)said, "They would stop people and choose the people they liked to kill." What is the meaning of "choose the people they liked"? I remember your words. You said, "Sometimes the people they liked and sometimes the people they suspected." Does that apply to women (15)or to men? • A.: Well, women, if they liked them, to rape them, and men, to finish them off, unless somebody was a friend of theirs. JUDGE RIAD: I found your words. You said, (20)"They would pick the people they recognised." Were they after certain people, or they just took anyone?
• A.: That happened too, to look for individuals,
for specific individuals, but that only happened now
and then. They were usually taking everybody. In
(25)Potocari, there lived Omer. He was born like this
JUDGE RIAD: If you remember, you mentioned that you saw something like 1.000 Muslims, driven by (5)Serbs, with their hands behind their heads. I think that was when you were in the bus. Did you know after that what happened to these men? • A.: Killed in the playground, before Kasaba, all of them. (10) JUDGE RIAD: And how did you know that? • A.: People who watched it said, hiding in the thicket and watching from the thicket. Brought to the playground, put a table there, a PAM on the table, around the table, and they would just go around, make a (15)round, and finish them all off. JUDGE RIAD: Also by slaughtering them with knives or shooting, or you don't know? You don't know the way. • A.: I heard only about shooting them dead, not (20)about slaughtering them dead. JUDGE RIAD: Just one last question. Perhaps I don't want to remind you. You said your mother died in the forest, in the woods. How did she die?
• A.: My mother -- my mother was 81 and was over
(25)100 kilogrammes. We were going through the woods -- we
JUDGE RIAD: I would like to thank you and to apologise for having aroused these memories. (5) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness Ademovic, I have only one question for you. Are you ready? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. Witness Ademovic, you were a driver by profession, and it took you to large cities, especially before the war, on various occasions. (15) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] For instance, you must have been to Sarajevo very many times. • A.: Yes. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In Sarajevo, was there a military barracks there? • A.: Yes, but I never went into the barracks. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Was there a police station there, for instance? (25)
• A.: In Sarajevo, you mean? Yes. Yes, there
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In the streets of Sarajevo, for instance, or perhaps some other city, could you distinguish between a soldier and (5)a policeman? • A.: You mean before the war? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Before the war, yes. • A.: Yes. Yes. They had different uniforms. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] They had different uniforms. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] On the 10th, the 11th, the 12th, the 13th of July, did you see (15)the difference between the police and the military uniforms? • A.: I didn't. Those camouflage uniforms are all alike, and I know nothing about them. I knew what Tito's uniform was, but that was a different type of (20)police and a different kind of army. Now I don't understand anything.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So this was
your answer. Thank you very much. We should like to
thank you for coming to give your evidence. It is
(25)always difficult to bring back those memories, to
THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. I hope if Alija goes from power, his party, and if Milosevic goes, then we shall live together as we did before. If they stay on, there will (15)be no life for us. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you very much, and we wish you a happy return home. THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Once again, (20)Your Honour, I want to see if Exhibits D6 and D7 are admitted. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, do you want to tender these documents?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Indeed,
(25)Mr. President, yes. D6 and D7.
MR. HARMON: I have no objection to D6, and if you just give me one minute to look at D7, no (5)objection to D7 either. Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] As you
know, Mr. Visnjic, the Prosecutor needs to look into
it, to see if there is any obligation of
confidentiality, if there is anything that requires
(10)different measures. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. So D6 and D7 are admitted, and Mr. Dubuisson will take care of them. (15)Very well. It is now twenty-five past two. I don't think that it is really possible to call in another witness, is it, Mr. Harmon? MR. HARMON: It's up to Your Honours, Mr. President. We're prepared to present another (20)witness, but I leave it to your discretion.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Thank
you, Mr. Harmon. I do not really think it will be very
convenient and useful to have a witness who will only
take the solemn declaration and then leave. So we
(25)shall adjourn today, until half past nine tomorrow.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.38 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of March, 2000, at (20)9.30 a.m. |
