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(1)Friday, 31 March 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to our sound engineers -- Can the interpreters hear me? Yes, they can -- counsel for the Prosecution, the Defence, (10)General Krstic. We shall today be resuming the case. For the record, we have the same situation today as yesterday; that is, the witness, who is right in the courtroom, will continue his testimony. Good morning, Witness H [sic] You will now (15)continue to answer questions put to you by the Prosecution. Thank you. WITNESS: LEENDERT VAN DUIJN [Resumed] MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Judge Riad, my learned friends for the Defence. (20) • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: [Cont'd]
• Q.: Captain van Duijn, just to remind you that
you are under the solemn oath that you were under
yesterday to speak the truth.
I'll quickly refresh your memory as to where
(25)you were yesterday. You had spoken about
• A.: He came up to me and wanted to speak to the
UN commander at that time at that position, and that
was me, of course. And he spoke to me through my
interpreter, the Muslim interpreter that was originally
(10)based with Bravo Company, and we spoke about a lot of
things that had nothing to do with what happened that
day, about soccer and other cases.
At one point, he mentioned about the
multiracial composition of my unit that was there.
(15)There were a few soldiers that were Negroes that were
on that position, and he stated, through my Muslim
interpreter, that in ten years, the Bosnian Serb army
would be in Holland to protect the Dutch from the
Muslims. And I said I didn't agree with him, also
(20)through the Muslim interpreter, of course.
Later on, he started to intimidate the Muslim
interpreter, because he asked me who he was and why he
was there. I explained to General Mladic that he was
an interpreter and he had a UN pass, and at that point
(25)he started to intimidate the Muslim interpreter.
• A.: It must have been about 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon. (5) • Q.: And this was on the 12th of July, 1995? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, you mentioned that he started to intimidate the Muslim interpreter. Can you tell the Judges what happened to the Muslim interpreter? (10)
• A.: General Mladic put his arm around him and he
started to speak to me through the interpreter, telling
that -- he played a sort of role-play, saying that the
interpreter was a Serb, that he was a good guy, and
that General Mladic was a Muslim, and he said, "Well,
(15)I'm a Muslim. I only think about making babies, but
this guy, this interpreter is a Serb, he's a good
fellow and I like him." And he put his arm around him
and he practically crushed him into his own body.
Later on, the UN pass that was given to the
(20)interpreter was taken away by the bodyguards of
General Mladic, and I had to speak to the bodyguards to
get it back. The interpreter was very scared, of
course, because that was his only pass that he had that
would practically ensure him of not being taken away
(25)like the other men but could stay with the UN forces.
• A.: He must have been there for about an hour, I think. The conversation I had with him was maybe 15 (5)minutes, 20 minutes, but he stayed there more in the background, speaking to Serb soldiers. • Q.: Now, whilst General Mladic was there, the transportation process was continuing; is that correct? • A.: That's correct. (10) • Q.: Do you recall any particular incident, while General Mladic was present, in connection with the transportation of the Muslims out of Potocari?
• A.: At one point, there was a woman that was
panicking, and she was really almost in a state of
(15)hysteria. So we got her out of the big group of
refugees and, through the interpreter, asked what was
going on with her. She said that her children, five
children, were already loaded on a lorry and she had
lost them in the big chaos, and she now saw them in the
(20)back of that truck, already starting to drive away from
where she was.
Through the interpreter that became clear to
me, and I planned to get her on the truck that was
already moving. The situation was that we had the
(25)refugees -- we were there in between the refugees and
• Q.: Did General Mladic say to you or explain to you why he would shoot the interpreter? • A.: Just for speaking to him as a Muslim (5)interpreter. Just for speaking to him without it being clear that he was interpreting for me. • Q.: Do you recall how much longer General Mladic stayed in Potocari? • A.: No. I haven't seen him from that moment on. (10) • Q.: Now, after General Mladic left or indeed went out of your sight, do you recall what you saw commencing in and around Potocari? • A.: As I explained, the situation was that we tried to calm the Muslim refugees; that, through Mane, (15)it would be clear to me how many buses there were and how many people could go onto the bus, and then we would leave, would let them leave in little groups so that they wouldn't trample each other by rushing to the buses. So we had a little control about the buses so (20)that there wouldn't be any overcrowding of the buses that happened in the beginning. • Q.: Now, the groups that were going towards the buses, they consisted of women and children; or men, women, and children. Do you recall? (25)
• A.: In the beginning, men, women, and children,
MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2, which I actually believe, I think, is my copy, because the Court copy was marked. • Q.: While the registrar is finding that exhibit, (20)how long did those men stay on that stretch of lawn outside those houses?
• A.: On the first day, that was the first day, so
that was the place where they were brought to. They
stayed there the rest of the day, until the evening,
(25)when all of the convoys and deportation was stopped,
(5) • Q.: Now, if you can recall, Captain van Duijn, the location where you saw these men on the 12th of July.
• A.: It was a house in this neighbourhood (10) • Q.: If you could leave your pointer there. MR. CAYLEY: And the witness is pointing to -- I think there are two small houses under that pointer, as one looks at the photograph, to the right of the road, passing north/south in the photograph and (15)just beneath the point of the arrow marking the Zinc Factory, perhaps two centimeters below the point of the arrow which marks the Zinc Factory. • Q.: Thank you, Captain van Duijn. Can you recall from your memory at what stage (20)the transport of Muslims ceased on the 12th of July? • A.: It was the beginning of the evening, about 6.00 in the evening, I think 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening, just before it became dark. • Q.: Did you speak with Mane again that evening? (25)
• A.: He said that of course the deportation
• Q.: Now, you say that he stated to you that he (10)wanted the road cleared because they wanted to use -- or other units would use the road to move troops south. Which troops are you referring to? • A.: I don't know what troops they were. • Q.: Are you referring to Bosnian Serb soldiers? (15) • A.: Bosnian Serb soldiers, yes. • Q.: Do you recall anything else of significance from your memory that actually happened on that day, on the 12th of July? • A.: On the day itself or in the evening? (20) • Q.: In the evening. In the evening.
• A.: When I returned, because I had been relieved
by Lieutenant Koster for that night -- he would stay
there in the midst of the refugees, together with other
soldiers -- I myself was of course real tired, coming
(25)from the blocking position, and after that day, so I
(10) MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 73. You can use this copy, and then if you just give it straight back to me, then we can move more quickly. • Q.: Could you just indicate to the Judges, (15)because you've mentioned him today and we mentioned him yesterday, if you could just point to the individual that you identified as Stalin. • A.: This man [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: So the witness is indicating (20)again on that exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 73, the individual on the right-hand side of the photograph with a moustache, wearing spectacles. Thank you, Captain van Duijn. If I could have that exhibit back. Thanks. (25)
• Q.: Let's move to the next date, the 13th of
• A.: I rose about 5.00 in the morning, and after seeing some soldiers that I wanted to accompany that (5)day, I -- it was about 6.00, half past 6.00, again at the location where Lieutenant Koster was, and he told me about the things that happened during the night. And the plan was that I would take over from him at that stage again. (10) • Q.: Is that the same location that you showed the Judges yesterday on the aerial photograph? • A.: It was a little bit more to the south, because I had spoken to Lieutenant Koster on the evening of the first day of the deportations, and it (15)was very difficult for us to try and keep the refugees calm. So I spoke to him and I said, "Well, I think we should make a sort of tunnel for the refugees to come in with APCs, formed with APCs," so the distance we had to cover with UN soldiers would be smaller, so we could (20)easily -- more easily could contain them and keep them calm. • Q.: Did Koster speak to you about what had happened during the night?
• A.: He said that a few incidents had happened,
(25)but the most memorable incidents were that a man had
• Q.: Can you tell the Judges what you recall from when you took over from Koster, what happened that morning? (10) • A.: Because the Serb soldiers and Mane were not there at that time, he had said to me that he would be there about 8.00 or somewhere in the vicinity of that time. But the bus drivers and the buses were already there, so I decided to keep the families together and (15)to send everyone on the bus with the groups they wanted. We already started, because the buses and the bus drivers knew where they had to drive, because they had been there the day before as well. We already started the transports for about an hour or something. (20)And then the Serbs came and Mane took over again. And from that moment on, the men were singled out again. • Q.: What time did the Bosnian Serb army return to Potocari? Do you recall approximately?
• A.: I think it must be between 8.00 and 8.30 in
(25)the morning.
• A.: It ended about 4.00, because by then all of the people of the big group of refugees had left by (5)then, about 4.00 in the afternoon. • Q.: Can you describe the scene to the Judges after all of the refugees had been transported out of Potocari, what you saw in and around the UN compound and indeed the factory and bus sites. (10) • A.: The factory sites were covered with goods that people had tried to take with them: bags of potatoes, blankets, all of the things they had tried to take with them as they fled. All the factory sites were covered in personal belongings as well, even (15)pictures and stuff like that that they had left behind. • Q.: Were there any Muslims left at all? • A.: The men, on the second day, when they were singled out, were taken up to a house we called the White House, almost opposite of the entrance of the UN (20)Compound in Potocari. • Q.: If I can interrupt, Captain van Duijn? MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/17.
• Q.: Now, this is a photograph that I showed, I
(25)think, the day before yesterday. Do you recognise this
• A.: This is the White House, only in the time we were there, there were much more trees and bushes that more or less covered the front lawn of that White (5)House. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what you saw at the White House? • A.: The White House itself was packed with men of different ages, and there were a few refugees in front (10)of the house but most of them were packed inside. I only stayed standing in front of the White House and having a peek inside, but I didn't go to the back. So I don't know what was there on the back side of the house. (15) • Q.: Can you describe to the Judges the appearance of those men that you saw at the White House? • A.: They were packed together, and because it was very warm, they were sweating. They were very, very scared. Some of them were shivering. Some of the men (20)were speaking themselves, but you could easily see that they were very, very scared. • Q.: Did you see anything else at the White House apart from these men that were packed inside and outside the White House? (25)
• A.: When I came up to the White House, and as you
(5) • Q.: Now, after you'd seen this, did you speak to anybody about what you'd seen at the White House?
• A.: I spoke to Mane again, because the first day
of the deportations when I noticed that the men were
singled out I asked him why, and he gave me the
(10)explanation of them wanting to distinguish who was a
war criminal and who was not. So I asked him again,
because I saw all the passports and identity papers,
why they couldn't take them with them, because that was
in front of the house and not on the men itself. He
(15)said, "Well, they don't need the stuff that's there.
They don't need it any more." Then I asked him how he
could explain the fact that if they wanted to know who
was a war criminal and who was not they could do that
without identity papers, because if they would give a
(20)false name, it wouldn't be on the list of war
criminals, and the person would go free and join the
rest of the convoy to Tuzla. Then he more or less
laughed at me and said, "Well, don't make such a fuss
out of it. They just don't need their passports any
(25)more."
• A.: I realised that the story he had told me before was not true any more, or hadn't been true at (5)all, and at that moment, I realised that something bad was going to happen to the men, and the only thing I can recollect now is I thought about the things I had seen before on television, before I went to Bosnia, about concentration camps and men being sent to camps (10)like that. At least I knew that they were not going to be sent with a convoy when they were not on the list. They would just be sent on a convoy to Tuzla, and that wasn't true at all. • Q.: Now, in terms of the transportation process (15)that you saw taking place, is there any image or memory that remains with you above any other after these years have passed?
• A.: There is an incident of a family that
consisted of about six to eight women, from an old
(20)woman about in her 60s, 70s until a young girl about 12
years old, I think, and you could see that there were
different generations. With that family there was only
one man, and he was about 45 to 50 years old, but he
looked fit and in shape. During the periods of the
(25)deportations, every time a man was singled out because
• Q.: Let's now, very briefly, go back to April of
1995, and I think at that point you were a commander on
(25)two observation posts, were you not?
• Q.: Can you just tell the Judges which observation posts those were? • A.: It was in the northeast, Sector 4 of the (5)enclave. They were Observation Posts Quebec and Romeo. • Q.: I think there were Serb forces opposite your observation posts, and could you very briefly tell the Judges what you observed in April 1995 that happened (10)with those Serb forces, what changes you saw taking place.
• A.: We had good contact with OP Romeo with the
soldiers that were stationed near there, about 200
metres from the location of OP Romeo. We called that
(15)the Dragan bunker, named after the first Serb commander
that was stationed there. And we could see from March,
April on, that the Serb forces that were there in the
beginning consisted of old men, shabby clothes, with
only handguns, and they were quite nice to my soldiers
(20)that were on OP Romeo.
And from March, April on, there were
reinforcements taking place. Every Tuesday there would
come a bus. First, January, February, it was to
relieve and replace the men that were inside the
(25)bunker, but from March, April on, there would come
• Q.: Very briefly, if you could talk about Muslim forces within the enclave. If you could tell the (10)Judges what you observed from your position at those two observation posts of Muslim forces within the enclave?
• A.: I had a lot of contact with the second in
command. He told me that he was from the Northern
(15)Brigade of the Muslims. His name was Nasir Sabanovic,
and he was the local commander for my two observation
posts from the Muslim forces. They did a lot of work
to make trenches and bunkers near the observation posts
or just behind my observation post. Nasir Sabanovic --
(20)at that time I was on OP Quebec myself -- came up to
the OP to tell me what he was thinking about the
situation and also told me about his patrols that he
went on, accompanied by two or three other Muslim
soldiers, when he was going out of the enclave into
(25)Serb territory to do reconnaissance patrols or, as he
• Q.: From your location, how many Muslim soldiers did you see at your two observation posts? (5) • A.: In the vicinity of the two OPs that I was at, there must have been about 50 to 100 Muslim soldiers in that vicinity in the later period. • Q.: How were they armed? • A.: They were armed with handguns, with (10)Kalashnikovs, and 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 15 had a rocket launcher of some sort. • Q.: Did he also report to you any risk that there was to your two observation posts from Bosnian Serb forces? (15) • A.: He warned me about that because of the location of my OPs were the closest to Serb positions in the enclave, he said that there was a plan of the Serbs to take over the two OPs, two of my OPs, and he said that through his patrols he had stationed mines (20)and placed mines. So the initial threat was now gone, but he was still afraid of the Serbs taking over my OPs. • Q.: Which indeed happened eventually. • A.: Later on, yes. Eventually. (25)
• Q.: Now, let's just go back to what you saw
(5) • A.: I went on a lot of exercises throughout my career. • Q.: At what levels have you gone on exercise? At what level of military formation have you been on exercise? (10) • A.: Platoon, company, battalion, and even big brigade or divisional exercises in Denmark or Germany or Greece. • Q.: Now, when you look back at what you saw taking place in the Srebrenica enclave in July of 1995, (15)can you estimate, from your experience, at what level that operation was taking place, now that you look back? • A.: Of course, I've read about what had taken place and read about the number of Serb soldiers that (20)were involved in their whole operation, but when you look at the piece of terrain, a very difficult part of terrain with only one road that's covered with asphalt, my opinion is that it should be at least on a divisional level. (25)
• Q.: From your recollection --
• Q.: Yes, by NATO standards. And by that you mean the way NATO addresses particular military formations, how it labels those formations? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: From your recollection, do you remember what the higher military formation was in the Bosnian Serb army that was responsible for the area of the Srebrenica enclave? (10) • A.: I remember from the beginning on that there was a unit called the Drina Wolves or the Drina Corps north of the enclave, and according to the conversations I had with Mane, who also told me that he was, with his military police unit, sort of a liaison (15)or a part of the Drina Wolves, I suspected that that was the Drina Wolves that were there. • Q.: Now, you say the Drina Wolves, which was a unit, but I'm actually interested in the larger formation, and you mentioned the Drina Corps. Which (20)was the larger military formation that was in the area? • A.: I think the Drina Corps. • Q.: And that's now, as you can remember?
• A.: Yes, because the nickname used for the Drina
(25)Corps was the Drina Wolves, as far as I know. So when
• Q.: Okay. Thank you very much indeed, Captain van Duijn. (5) MR. CAYLEY: I have no further questions, Mr. President. I can offer the witness for cross-examination. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. (10)Mr. Petrusic, Witness H [sic], you're now going to answer questions that will be put to you by Mr. Petrusic, who is representing General Krstic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours; good morning colleagues from the (15)Prosecution. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: Good morning, Captain. After the 13th of July, how long did you and your unit stay in the base, that is, in Potocari? (20) • A.: We stayed for a couple of more days, and I believe we returned to Zagreb on the 20th of July. I don't know the exact date any more.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
Mr. Petrusic, I'm very sorry to interrupt you, but I
(25)can see in the transcript that we -- that somebody
(5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: During that time, Captain, did you ever go to Srebrenica? • A.: No, not any more. • Q.: In response to a question put to you by my (10)learned colleague Mr. Cayley, you said that there was a unit that operated in the area of Srebrenica, a unit which belonged to the VRS. Can you be more specific and explain to us whether between the unit that you referred to as Drina Wolves and the Drina Corps, as a (15)larger military unit, whether there was any smaller unit between the two which would still belong to the Drina Corps? • A.: The only smaller unit I know of was the military police unit where Captain Mane was in. That (20)was more or less attached to the Drina Wolves or Drina Corps.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Thank you,
Captain van Duijn.
Your Honours, I do not have any further
(25)questions for this witness.
(5) MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't have any further questions. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. Judge Riad. (10) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Captain van Duijn, good morning? • A.: Good morning. (15) JUDGE RIAD: I'll just ask you from the end, because the learned Defence counsel asked if you had been to Srebrenica. You mentioned yesterday, at the beginning of your testimony, that you saw scenes in Srebrenica, smoke coming from houses, shelling, and the (20)panic of the people. You saw it in Srebrenica itself or you saw it from a distance? • A.: When I -- at that period, I was in the blocking position south of Srebrenica, and I saw it taking place in the city itself. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: The city itself.
JUDGE RIAD: I see. So you were close enough to see all this. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: We have your description. It's (10)there, so I don't need to ask about it any more. You referred to the conversation with Mane when he was telling you that they needed these men for inquiry to find out if they committed war crimes, and you told them, "Then why don't they keep their papers because (15)the papers will be essential." He told you they do not need their identity papers any more. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Laughingly. So what was your conclusion? What was the meaning of that for you as a (20)responsible UN officer?
• A.: I thought that at least the story that he had
told me about trying to single out the war criminals
was not true, so they would more or less treat all the
men in the same way, the same terrible way. At that
(25)point, I radioed to the OPs room and said, "Well, we
JUDGE RIAD: At the end of your testimony, you referred to the Drina Corps and the Drina Wolves, which you consider it almost identical, but you didn't (10)mention much about them. What do you know about this Drina Corps during this period when you were in charge? • A.: I only know about the intel we had before we went to Bosnia, where they said "Well, the Drina Corps was stationed there." We must have been -- must have (15)had lessons about their insignias or ranks, but I don't recollect that any more. The only thing I was thinking about again was during the conversation with Mane, when he told me that he was part of the Drina Corps with his military unit. (20)So that's the things I know about. JUDGE RIAD: He was part of the Drina Corps? • A.: He said that he was more or less part of the Drina Corps.
JUDGE RIAD: And Mr. Stalin, was he part of
(25)the Drina Corps?
JUDGE RIAD: Was there any actions which justified calling him Mr. Stalin? (5) • A.: No. Not that I know of. JUDGE RIAD: You know what Stalin did? • A.: I know what Stalin did, yes. JUDGE RIAD: Was it related to the kind of actions which Stalin did? (10) • A.: I asked Mane what his real name was instead of Stalin, but Mane didn't answer about it, he just said his radio name or his radio nickname is Stalin and that's the only thing I know about that man. JUDGE RIAD: Was he high in grade, (15)Mr. Stalin? • A.: He was higher than Mane and Mane told me he was a Captain. So I presume that he was major or something, but I don't know. JUDGE RIAD: But he had higher authorities (20)than him? • A.: He had higher authorities than Mane. JUDGE RIAD: I mean Stalin was not the chief of everything? • A.: No. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Was not the man giving orders?
JUDGE RIAD: Do you know who was giving orders around the whole place apart from Mladic? • A.: On my location, it was Mane, and because (5)Stalin, the man we'd nicknamed Stalin was the commander of Mane, I presumed that Stalin was giving orders to Mane about a larger area, but I don't know who was giving orders in the whole of the enclave. JUDGE RIAD: The part of the White House and (10)where you had this -- • A.: Where I was. JUDGE RIAD: It was Stalin and Mane? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: And you met Mladic. Did you (15)ever meet General Krstic? • A.: No, not that I recollect. JUDGE RIAD: Nor see him around, see him moving around, giving orders? • A.: I don't remember that, no. (20) JUDGE RIAD: And when you were talking to Mladic, this very significant conversation, which was very unclear to me, you said at a certain moment he hugged the interpreter and told you he was a Serb. • A.: Yes. He was -- (25)
JUDGE RIAD: And then he would say he would
• A.: He played a sort of a role-play at first with the Muslim interpreter, embarrassing him by saying, well -- and he hugged him like this with his arm around (5)him, crushing him to his own body, and he said, "Do you know him?" And I said, "Well, of course I know him, because he's my interpreter. He said, "No, he's not your interpreter. He's not a Muslim. He's a Serb. He's a good guy." (10)And Mladic, General Mladic, then pointed to himself and he said, "Well, I am a Muslim, and I only think about making babies, so I am a bastard. But this guy is a good guy." So he pretended that the Muslim was a Serb and he himself was a Muslim. (15) JUDGE RIAD: It was some kind of changing roles. • A.: Yes. Sort of a role-playing to -- JUDGE RIAD: And making fun, perhaps. • A.: -- to embarrass the Muslim interpreter, who (20)was of course very scared. JUDGE RIAD: And then he added that he would be coming -- he would be defending Holland against the Muslim invasion?
• A.: He saw a few of my soldiers sitting, and he
(25)actually shook hands with him, and there were two white
JUDGE RIAD: What did he mean by that? • A.: That it was not good that Holland has a multiracial society or something. I think that he (10)meant that. JUDGE RIAD: He wanted ethnic cleansing in Holland, or what? • A.: Maybe. I don't know. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, Judge Riad.
Captain, I should also like to ask a few
questions of you. You spoke about the period of April
1995 and about the changes that you could observe from
(20)your observation posts Q and R. You also spoke about
propaganda which was conducted by General Mladic. My
question in respect to that is as follows: Before
these events, had there been any propaganda by Serbs in
the enclave of Srebrenica, if you know anything about
(25)that?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I should like to ask you to clarify something with my next question. Speaking of the Drina Corps and Drina (5)Wolves, is it one and the same thing or are we speaking about two different things here? Because I thought that you said that Drina Wolves was just a nickname for the Drina Corps. • A.: As far as I know, that Drina Wolves is a (10)nickname for Drina Corps, and so they -- the two mean the same thing, in my knowledge. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You also spoke about the White House. You said that there had been a pile of documents, passports, personal (15)belongings of people who were in the White House. Do you know, by any chance, what has happened with all those things?
• A.: The days after all of the events had taken
place and we were back in the UN Compound, we could see
(20)a lot of people coming from Bratunac and more or less
looting everything that was usable from all of the
houses, and we could also see that at the location of
the White House, stuff was brought together and burnt,
and that's when I remembered that possibly all of the
(25)papers and all of the passports were burnt at that time
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Who burnt those documents and passports? • A.: I don't know. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Captain. You have provided a lot of information, lots of clarification for us. Let me just verify if there are any documents that we have to deal with. (10) THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Prosecution Exhibit 71, 72, 73, and 74. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What is the situation with them? Mr. Cayley. (15) MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, those are a series of four photographs that the witness recognised and indeed provided foundation for their admission, so I would apply to you for admission of those photographs into evidence, please. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, or Mr. Visnjic, do you have any objections?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President,
we do not. At the same time, I should like to take
(25)this opportunity -- I don't know whether you're now
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, very well. The documents have been admitted into evidence. Captain van Duijn, thank you very much once (10)again on behalf of the International Criminal Tribunal for coming here to testify. We understand that you have been through quite an ordeal while you were still very young, and I hope that you will continue to enjoy this multiracial, multiethnical atmosphere in this (15)beautiful country of yours. Thank you very much. You are now free to go.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Well, let
(20)me just tell you that we have something at around
11.00. We are not able to continue before 11.10. So I
think that it's much better to deal with the motions of
the Defence now, and then after that we will have a
break, and after the break we will continue with the
(25)witness. We have this commitment around 11.00. If we
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Thank you,
Mr. President. Our motions are in a way interrelated,
but we nevertheless separated them, and I shall now
submit the first one.
(10)The Defence would like the Chamber to rule on
a problem which arose with regard to the statements of
the witnesses for the Prosecution, and to pass a ruling
to resolve the matter in a principled manner.
Before I do that, I should like to remind the
(15)Chamber that both the Defence and the Prosecution for
the last two months before the beginning of the trial
had done a great deal of work regarding the disclosure
of evidence, so that on the eve of the trial, the
Defence found itself with a very large quantity of
(20)evidence on its hands disclosed by the Prosecution, and
that includes also witness statements, both in English
and in Serbo-Croatian. Some of these statements we
also received after the trial began. For reasons that
Your Honours already know, the summaries of the witness
(25)statements we received a week before the trial began.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] As you said, Mr. Visnjic, these applications are interrelated, but you wanted to do it separately. Perhaps we could (15)indeed treat them severally; that is, you can hear the Prosecutor's statements and then submit your application. That is, also perhaps we could hear the answer of the Prosecution, or rather the reaction of the Prosecution. (20)What do you think, Mr. Harmon, about this application? However, before that -- excuse me, Mr. Harmon. Before that, have you discussed the matter with the Prosecution? (25)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] No,
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. But we have already established that Rule before any motion is presented, but we should hear the opinion of (5)the other party and whether they agree or do not agree. If they agree, very well; if not, we can try to reach an agreement, an understanding. But we now have to hear the view of the Prosecutor, and we also have a break. And during the break, of course, it is also (10)possible to shed views on various matters. But since the Chamber is not sitting in full, we shall not be able to make a ruling now; that is, the Chamber has not yet passed another decision which is also pending. We shall therefore await for Judge Wald to return in order (15)to pass the decision, and we shall also need the presence of Judge Wald to decide on this matter as well. But we shall hear all this matter, and the Chamber will then discuss. Today we cannot pass that (20)decision, because Judge Wald is not with us. But be that as it may, I should like to hear the opinion of Mr. Harmon in this respect.
MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President;
good morning, Judge Riad; good morning, counsel.
(25)My first observation is somewhat similar to
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. We appreciate your suggestion, Mr. Harmon. Mr. Visnjic, I have to go back to what I just (10)said. It was perhaps preferable to hear both applications so that we could address them both at the same time. Could we hear your second application, please?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President,
(15)we submitted a motion regarding the text of the
indictment, and we had certain objections against some
of the Prosecution evidence. You made a ruling in that
respect, and I am not commenting on that. However,
after that, the Registry gave us a certificate
(20)explaining to us that the Serbian text of the
indictment, the one that was available to Mr. Petrusic
and me, was erroneously translated. It had to do with
our previous motion.
Article 18.4 of the Statute of the Tribunal
(25)in this regard says that when the Prosecutor determines
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. I believe the time has now come for our break. Before (10)we make the break, I should like to hear who will be our next witness. Are any protective measures sought, what kind of protective measures? Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Our next witness will be Colonel Kingori, and no protective measures will be sought. (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
We will also use the break. As I told you, we have an
obligation around 11.00, so if we could make a
half-hour break, and the parties can meet now that the
Prosecutor knows the substance of the application or
(20)applications of the Defence, you could perhaps meet and
discuss it before the next witness is called. You can
also talk to the Chamber and let us know what are your
views, whether you agree with that or not. If you do
not agree, then the Chamber will take the decision on
(25)the motion, on the application of the Defence.
--- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.
--- On resuming at 11.40 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you (10)very much for coming here, Witness. Let us first hear your solemn declaration. THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. You may be seated now. WITNESS: JOSEPH KINGORI JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Are you comfortable? (20) THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Harmon,
we have somewhat changed the order of the day. I will
explain this later on.
Witness, thank you very much for coming to
(25)testify here. You will begin by answering questions
MR. HARMON: Thank you. If I could first ask the usher to move the ELMO back so I can see the (5)witness, I would appreciate it. Thank you very much. • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Colonel Kingori, can you state your full name and spell your last name for the record, please? • A.: My name is Lieutenant-Colonel Joseph Gichuhi (10)Kingori. I spell the last name K-i-n-g-o-r-i. • Q.: Colonel, you're a career military officer; is that correct? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: Your nationality is Kenyan? (15) • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: How long have you been in the Kenyan Air Force? • A.: I joined the Kenyan Air Force in 1977. That means by now I've been there for over 23 years. (20) • Q.: In 1994, Colonel Kingori, did you serve as a United Nations military observer? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: Did you serve in that capacity in the former Yugoslavia? (25)
• A.: Yes, Your Honour.
• A.: Physically, Your Honour, as a military observer -- we used to call them U-N-M-O, that is (5)UNMOs -- you are there to monitor the violations to the ceasefire agreement, and also you are supposed to be neutral and bring the warring factions together. This could have been by means of holding meetings with either side and bringing whatever you're told from one (10)side to the other, so as to bring them as close as possible to each other. Also if there was anything to be conveyed from the UN headquarters, it used to pass through us. Likewise, we also had to convey whatever we get from (15)the warring factions to the UN headquarters through the UNMO channels. • Q.: Was your principal role as an UNMO to observe materials that related to the military and related to ceasefire violations? (20) • A.: Correct, Your Honour. • Q.: Now, when you say that you had to report up the normal chain, can you tell the Judges what was the chain of your reporting?
• A.: Your Honour, the normal chain was from the
(25)UNMO sector, that is, from where we were. We write the
• Q.: Thank you, Colonel. Now, can you explain to the Judges the difference between an UNMO and a soldier who was serving in the former Yugoslavia as a part of UNPROFOR? (10)
• A.: Your Honour, as I said concerning UNMO, the
main roles was to monitor any violations to the
ceasefire agreement and also handle military matters.
Also you are to do some humanitarian issues, like
helping the aged, helping those who are injured,
(15)analysing craters, that is, a crater analysis, in case
of any impacts using heavy weapons, and then send the
same to the headquarters to the channel that I gave
you.
As for UNPROFOR, UNPROFOR, one thing to note
(20)is that they were armed. They had arms and they were
staying in their battalion headquarters of various
outposts, as required in their observation posts and
all that.
The difference comes whereby we are not
(25)supposed to use arms, because we did not have any. But
• Q.: So you were not -- when you were serving as an UNMO officer, you were not at the same location and quartered with UNPROFOR soldiers. • A.: Yes, Your Honour. We were staying (10)separately. • Q.: Now, did UNPROFOR have a different mandate than you? • A.: Yes, Your Honour, they had a different mandate. (15) • Q.: And are you able to describe their mandate as opposed to your mandate? • A.: Your Honour, their mandate was, as a requirement of the UNPROFOR headquarters, to also monitor, but relate the military activities to what (20)they had been told to do. That is, in case of any activity from the warring factions, they could be called in to act against the source of the fire. With us, we were not.
• Q.: And did UNPROFOR have a principal role in
(25)ensuring the provision of humanitarian aid to various
• A.: Repeat your question, sir. • Q.: Was one of the principal roles, as opposed to your role, which dealt almost exclusively with military (5)matters, was UNPROFOR's role different in that it was to ensure, or attempt to ensure, that humanitarian aid would flow to various parts in the former Yugoslavia? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: Now, as an UNMO, how long did you serve in (10)the former Yugoslavia? • A.: Your Honour, I stayed there for one year: six months in East Krajina, that is, Sector 8; and then four months in Srebrenica; and the remaining period was in Sector south, in Knin. (15) • Q.: When did you receive your assignment to go to Srebrenica? • A.: This was towards the end of March, 1995. • Q.: And when did you actually arrive in Srebrenica? (20) • A.: Your Honour, I arrived in Srebrenica somewhere around -- I think it was 4th or 5th. I'm not very sure of the actual dates. • Q.: The 4th or 5th of which month? • A.: Of April 1995. (25)
• Q.: And when you arrived, where were you
• A.: Your Honour, our headquarters was in the PTT building in Srebrenica town. • Q.: And when you arrived, how many other UNMOs (5)were also in Srebrenica? • A.: Your Honour, there were five other UNMOs, and with me that made six. • Q.: Where were they there, the other UNMOs? • A.: Your Honour, I can remember one was from (10)Canada, there was one from Ukraine, there was one from Ghana, one from Holland, and the other one was from -- where? • Q.: Was the other from Brazil? • A.: From Brazil, Your Honour. (15) • Q.: Now, at the time the enclave fell in July of 1995, how many UNMOs were in the Srebrenica enclave?
• A.: At this time, Your Honour, it's good to
inform you that for the UNMOs, we were to stay in one
place for one month, and then we go out for leave or
(20)vacation for six days, then go back to continue with
the work.
At this time there were three UNMOs who were
supposed to be rotated, and one of them had stayed
there for I think four months or so. When his time
(25)came, he was not allowed to leave the enclave.
• Q.: Now, as part of your duties, you had to get (15)to know contacts from the various warring factions; isn't that correct? • A.: That's correct, Your Honour. • Q.: Now, I'd like to focus your attention on the Bosnian Serb army. Could you tell the Judges who were (20)your points of contact from the Bosnian Serb side?
• A.: Your Honour, from the Bosnian Serbs -- that
is, we used to call them the BSA -- we were contacting
directly with Major Nikolic and at times with a colonel
called Vukovic, through our interpreter, who was called
(25)Petar. And something to remember is that when we were
• Q.: Now, how did Major Nikolic dress? • A.: Your Honour, Major Nikolic was always dressed (5)in combat dress; that is, camouflage, green; green camouflage. • Q.: And how was Colonel Vukovic dressed? • A.: Your Honour, Colonel Vukovic was dressed the same way. (10) • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what position you believed Major Nikolic to have? • A.: Your Honour, Major Nikolic was, as we were told, in charge of one of the units, one of the fighting units on the BSA side. (15) • Q.: And do you know what his higher military formation was? • A.: Your Honour, the way the BSA was organised was that there were superior officers above him, and all that chain went, as far as I know, up to General (20)Mladic level. • Q.: And can you tell me about Colonel Vukovic. How did he represent himself to you?
• A.: Your Honour, Colonel Vukovic was also in
charge of one of the brigades, which I do not remember
(25)which one, and he was actually -- the way he was -- he
• Q.: So in your view, both Major Nikolic and Colonel Vukovic were from brigades that were around the (5)Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? • A.: That's correct, Your Honour. • Q.: Now, I'd like you to describe to the Judges the attitude that you observed in Colonel Vukovic in respect of the Muslims who resided in the enclave. (10) • A.: Your Honour, Colonel Vukovic -- okay. I don't know the right word, but he was a bit rough as far as the Muslims were concerned, because even at one of the meetings that we had, it was said that the Muslims have to leave Srebrenica enclave in total. He (15)doesn't want to see them there. And if they are there, he might end up killing one of them. He once said that. So I can say he was a bit rough as far as the Muslims are concerned. • Q.: Now, let me turn your attention to the Muslim (20)side. Can you tell the Judges the representatives the Muslim military formations that you had contact with?
• A.: Your Honour, we were contacting with the
chief of staff, who was, I remember, Ramiz Becirovic.
Then there was the intelligence officer, IO for short,
(25)who was called Ekrem Salihovic or someone like that.
• Q.: Based on your contacts with these Muslim (5)representatives, what was their attitude in respect of the Serbs who were outside of the enclave? How did they express themselves to you? • A.: Your Honour, the Muslims, in whichever meeting that we had, were always afraid of what the (10)Serbs around them would do or could do to them. They were in constant fear that they might overrun the enclave and maybe even harass them. But as far as military activities, there was very little military activities, only when they used to go to look for food (15)outside. They were always afraid that something could happen to them on the way, because there was not enough food in the enclave. • Q.: You described a rough attitude of Colonel Vukovic. Did you see a similar rough attitude (20)in the representatives of the Muslim community with whom you were dealing? • A.: Your Honour, I did not see any.
• Q.: Now, Colonel Kingori, let me ask you in terms
of how you would conduct your business. If there was
(25)an allegation of a ceasefire violation, what would you
• A.: Your Honour, the first thing I would do is to request for more information, especially concerning the actual location where the violation has occurred. Then (5)go to that particular place, see what violation has occurred. By "seeing," I mean maybe if it was some rocket or artillery shell had fallen at that place, I would go and see the actual location, maybe analyse the crater to know the source of the artillery piece. Then (10)using the maps that we had, know the source, where it actually came from that is, and get it in terms of grid references so that we can forward it to the UN headquarters through the normal channels. But if it was a violation of maybe some (15)normal shooting, which was prevalent in that area, mainly from the BSA side, I would also interview the locals. I would interview them, ask them what actually transpired, who actually infiltrated into that particular area, who they believe those guys were (20)after, and after getting all that, I would forward it to the UNMO headquarters.
• Q.: So would it be fair to say, Colonel Kingori,
that from the time you arrived in the enclave until the
fall of the enclave, you spent a considerable period of
(25)your time in the field?
• Q.: And when you were in the field, were you observing and making assessments of the various capabilities of the warring factions? (5) • A.: That's very true, Your Honour. • Q.: Now, if there was a violation of a ceasefire or there was an incident or there was a shelling, you mentioned you prepared reports. Those were reports that were prepared by you personally or prepared by (10)part of your team or both? • A.: Your Honour, these reports were being prepared by either me or the other UNMOs, or at times we could draft them together. What used to happen was that when you are in the field, you come with what you (15)have found. Maybe someone else was in a different area, and maybe the other guys who are left, the other UNMOs who are left in there -- in the office. So we would combine all these and make one report and send it to the UNMO headquarters. So it was a combination of (20)all of us. • Q.: Thank you, Colonel. We'll return to the issue of reports in a few minutes. Now, let me ask you: When the Bosnian Serb side wanted to contact you, how would they do that? (25)
• A.: Your Honour, from the BSA side, they would
MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's Exhibit 42 placed on the ELMO, please. • Q.: Colonel, there's an image of an individual (10)that's been placed on the ELMO. Do you recognise that individual? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: Who is that? • A.: Your Honour, this was our interpreter, (15)Mr. Petar. • Q.: This was your -- • A.: The Serb interpreter. • Q.: Your initial source of contact. When the Serbs wanted a meeting at UNMOs, they would go through (20)Petar? • A.: That's correct, Your Honour.
• Q.: Okay. Now, let me ask you: In the meetings
that you had with the representatives of the Bosnian
Serb army, from the time you arrived in the enclave in
(25)April until the time that the enclave fell, did the
(5) • A.: Your Honour, I do not remember of any single time that the BSA complained about firing from that side, except maybe once, but that was not firing, it was the people now going to Zepa to look for food. There was nothing like military activities from the BiH (10)side that was complained about the BSA side. • Q.: Now, did the Serbs ever explain to you, in the time that you were in Srebrenica, about Serbian casualties, either civilian or military, that were the result of attacks by Muslim soldiers who had been (15)within the enclave? • A.: Your Honour, I don't remember any time. • Q.: Now, let me go to the other side of the conflict. Can you tell the Judges: Did the Muslim representatives complain to you about attacks by Serbs (20)coming into the enclave, either personally by infantry formation or by artillery?
• A.: Your Honour, this happened several times,
very many times. The reports we could receive either
from the military organisation or from locals coming
(25)from the other sides, other villages of Srebrenica, and
• Q.: Did the Muslims then complain to you about civilian casualties that had been suffered and did you, in fact, confirm the existence of civilian casualties on the Muslim side? (10) • A.: Your Honour, that was almost the order of the day. Most of the time we would get complaints of civilian casualties. • Q.: Colonel Kingori, you were a neutral party, but can you give the Judges your assessment of which of (15)the warring factions appeared to you to be the aggressor? • A.: Your Honour, from what I have said and what I observed when I was there, most of the violations were against the Muslims. I can't remember of any that was (20)against the Serbs from the Muslims. So that means, basically, the BSA are the ones who were most of time there actually the aggressors, as far as I know.
• Q.: Now, given the fact that you have testified
that you spent a considerable period of your time in
(25)the field within the enclave, could you kindly give the
(5) • A.: Your Honour, can you confirm whether you mean the Bosnian Serbs or -- • Q.: Sorry, I made a mistake. I meant the Bosnian Muslims who were within the enclave. Can you provide the Judges with an assessment of those military (10)formations, and when you give that assessment, can you include all aspects of military analysis?
• A.: Your Honour, from the Muslim side, that is
BiH, there was no organised military as such. For one,
it is good to remember that they did not have heavy
(15)weapons. All the heavy weapons had been withdrawn and
taken to DutchBat for safe custody, because the whole
enclave was a safe area. It was a demilitarised zone.
That means all the weapons, especially the heavy
weapons, were withdrawn and taken to DutchBat for safe
(20)custody. In fact, most of it was in the B-Company
Compound near where we were living.
Okay. We cannot discount the fact that they
had some small arms. We're talking about AK-47s and
all that, but they did not have heavy weapons. They
(25)were not -- as we can say militarily, they were not
• Q.: Did you ever see any formations of soldiers? • A.: Your Honour, I cannot remember seeing any formation. Okay. At times you could see one, two (5)soldiers with some small arms, but the biggest number I ever saw was a maximum of ten, and those are very few soldiers. • Q.: How would you assess their command structure? (10) • A.: Your Honour, what I can say is that their command structure -- okay. We can say it existed, but it sort of -- it was not fully established. They had a chief of staff who was Ramiz. They had someone -- I can't remember what his name was. He was a senior (15)person whom I never met. But you cannot call that an organised military command structure. It was not exactly that. Okay, they had an IO, an intelligence officer, that is Ekrem, but it was not an organised structure the way the military should be, as far as I (20)could see. • Q.: What was your assessment, Colonel Kingori, of the threat that these armed Muslims within the enclave posed to the areas outside of the enclave?
• A.: Your Honour, I don't think they posed any
(25)threat at all. They were not armed as such, and as
• Q.: Why don't we address your attention then to (5)what the Bosnian Serb army had. Can you describe that army? • A.: Your Honour, at least the Serbs -- I can say they had an organised structure, and they used to follow it. At the same time, I can also say they were (10)armed with heavy weapons. At least they had artillery, because they used it. They had mortars. They had machine-guns. They had rockets, even indicated at some times where their rocket launchers were. They had tanks and many other types of heavy weapons. (15) • Q.: Did they have armoured personnel carriers? Did they have jeeps? • A.: Yes, Your Honour, they had them. Later on, anyway. They robbed some from the UNPROFOR, but that was just in addition to what they had. (20) • Q.: Now, can you assess or provide the Judges with an assessment on the command structure? Was it a command structure that, in your opinion, functioned and functioned properly?
• A.: Your Honour, as far as I know, their command
(25)structure functioned. The way it was organised was a
• Q.: Now, did it appear to you that the Bosnian Serb army was an entity that was that one where the higher levels would issue orders and the lower subordinate units would follow orders? (10) • A.: Your Honour, that is the case. The higher commanders used to give orders and the lower ones used to obey. • Q.: Colonel Kingori, I'd like to focus your attention on a meeting that occurred in June of 1995 (15)and took place at the Hotel Fontana with representatives of the Bosnian Serb army. Do you recall that particular meeting? • A.: Your Honour, I can. • Q.: How was it that that meeting was called? (20) • A.: Your Honour, that meeting was called through by Major Nikolic, through our interpreter, Petar, and we went to the Hotel Fontana for that meeting. • Q.: And did you personally attend that meeting? • A.: Your Honour, I did. (25)
• Q.: From the Bosnian Serb side, who was present?
• Q.: Could I show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4 (5)and ask you if this particular man in Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4 was present at that meeting. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, you can use my exhibit right here, it might be faster. If that could be placed on the ELMO. (10) • Q.: And do you see anybody in that exhibit, Colonel Kingori, who was also present; and if so, can you point him out? • A.: Your Honour, this particular individual was in the meeting [indicates] (15) MR. HARMON: For the record, on Prosecutor's 28/4, Colonel Kingori has identified the individual who is in the foreground with an orange face. He is the second individual from the right-hand side of the photograph. (20)Thank you, Colonel. MR. HARMON: And if I could have my exhibit back, Mr. Usher.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Excuse me,
Mr. Harmon. Could the witness perhaps try to remember
(25)that person's name?
• Q.: Do you recall at present that person's name? • A.: Your Honour, I cannot remember the name, but -- I cannot remember the actual name, to be (5)honest. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what the purpose of that meeting was? • A.: Your Honour, the purpose of that meeting was mainly to discuss the people in the enclave and -- yes, (10)I think it was mainly to discuss that. • Q.: And do you recall what was said at that particular meeting in respect of the people in the enclave? • A.: Your Honour, it was said that the people in (15)the enclave should leave the enclave as -- you know, what they said was that they do not belong there; they should leave the enclave in totality. • Q.: And do you recall who was saying that? • A.: Your Honour, this was said by Colonel (20)Vukovic. • Q.: Did he make any statements that you interpreted to be menacing?
• A.: Your Honour, the words he used that time were
menacing, if I can say, because he said if the Muslims
(25)do not leave, he is going to kill all of them.
(5) • A.: Your Honour, the other senior officers were also present. • Q.: Did any of the other senior Bosnian Serb military officers who were present when Colonel Vukovic said that disagree with him or attempt to soften that (10)in any way? • A.: Your Honour, as far as I know, no one objected to what Colonel Vukovic said, no one talked about it, and it is as if what he said is something they had discussed earlier, or he was just conveying (15)what they had discussed earlier or something like that. • Q.: Was there also a discussion that included a discussion about safe passage of the Muslims from the enclave? • A.: Your Honour, that is true. He said that -- (20)it was said that if the Muslims decide to leave, as they were requested to do, they would be given a safe passage to leave through up to Tuzla, to join their brothers in Tuzla.
• Q.: At the conclusion of this meeting, Colonel
(25)Kingori, did you form any opinions about the intentions
• A.: Your Honour, the feelings that I got out of that meeting was that maybe something was afoot, (5)something was being planned, something to make sure that whatever Colonel Vukovic said will be done; that is, the Serbs -- the Muslims should leave the enclave and they will be given a free passage, and if they do not, maybe something will be done. We suspected (10)something could be done, and they conveyed the same to the UN headquarters. • Q.: Now, let me fast-forward a bit to the attack on the enclave itself. When the attack on the enclave started, where were you? (15) • A.: Your Honour, I was in the PTT building. We were asleep at that time, me and Major Tetteh. • Q.: And did you remain in the PTT building from the time the attack started until approximately the 9th of July? (20)
• A.: Your Honour, we stayed -- okay. We did not
stay inside the building, because we were going out to
check what is happening. We were also going out to
analyse the craters, that is, carrying out our normal
onward duties. Then we would go back to the PTT
(25)building, write the sitreps, that is, the situation
• Q.: All right, Colonel Kingori. MR. HARMON: I'm going to ask, first of all, Mr. President, that Prosecutor's Exhibit 77 be (10)distributed. And Your Honours, Prosecutor's 77 are a series of UNMO reports and UNPROFOR reports between the dates of the 6th of July and the 18th of July. • Q.: Now, Colonel Kingori, have you seen these reports before? Have I shown you these reports, and (15)did you recognise these reports? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: Now, were these reports that were prepared by you or other members of -- Major Tetteh, who was the other UNMO, at or about the time the events described (20)in the reports were occurring? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: And do these reports contain your observations as you best knew them at the time?
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Harmon,
(25)excuse me for interrupting you, but would you find it
MR. HARMON: I would be glad if the usher (5)could take out the first report and -- I'm sorry -- the report that is -- yes, the first report, the report that is found in tab 1. If you could put that -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] As you know, Mr. Harmon, we have open sessions and we have to (10)take care of that. Of course, the Judges need to see the reports, but perhaps the public should also see them. Thank you, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Thank you very much, Mr. President. (15) • Q.: Now, the report that's been found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 77 tab 1 has been placed on the ELMO. Can you identify that report as being either an UNMO report or an UNPROFOR report? • A.: Your Honour, this is an UNMO report, as can (20)be seen from the way it is written. It's from UNMO headquarters sector Bosnia-Herzegovina north-east 2, UNMO headquarters, BiH command. So it is an UNMO report.
• Q.: And is there a date on that report, and can
(25)you point with the pointer where the date of this
• A.: Your Honour, this is the date, which is the 6th of July, 1995. • Q.: And on a particular day did you send more (5)than one report up your chain of command? • A.: Your Honour, that is true, because we had to send the situation reports, and if something occurred in the course of time, we would send updates of the same report. (10) MR. HARMON: Now if the usher could take that particular item off of the ELMO and if we could place the Prosecutor's 77, tab 2, on the ELMO, we'll be able to make a distinction between the reports that are contained in Prosecutor's Exhibit 77. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, sorry once again for interrupting you. I should like to ask the technicians to do the following: When the document is placed on the ELMO, if they could first show us the document in its entirety, and only after (20)that to focus on the pertinent paragraph. Could you please show us the whole document? Thank you. This would be enough. Thank you very much. Sorry, Mr. Harmon, for this interruption. MR. HARMON: (25)
• Q.: Now, for purposes of future reference for
• A.: Your Honour, this is an UNPROFOR report. (5) • Q.: And are the observations contained in that report based on observations of UNPROFOR personnel? • A.: Your Honour, that is true. It's based on UNPROFOR personnel and not necessarily anything to do with UNMO. (10) MR. HARMON: Now, let me just, for purposes of future reference and convenience, let me turn to the item that is found in Prosecutor's 77, tab 6. If that could be placed on the ELMO. This will be of assistance both to the Trial Chamber and to counsel (15)when they review these reports. • Q.: Colonel Kingori, this is an UNMO report, isn't it? • A.: Your Honour, it is an UNMO report. MR. HARMON: Now, if we could zoom down on (20)the UNMO report, please, to the top of the page. Right there is fine.
• Q.: And do you see, Colonel, the top of the page,
underneath the word "from," there is the letters DTG,
and then there are a series of numbers with July 1995.
(25)Could you explain to the Judges what those numbers are
• A.: Your Honour, DTG means date, time, group. It (5)is different from the normal dates. In the military, the way we write, you start the date -- the DTG with the date. That is the date. Like, here you can see it was on the 8th [indicates] Then the time. That is using a 24-hour clock. That is, now it was at 1430. (10)And then the letter Bravo, that is, B, means the time zone. For example, like where we were, we were using a time zone Bravo, and I think it is the same even here. In Kenya, West Africa, we use Charlie. So there is a difference in the time zones. Then the JUL, that means (15)it's July. That is the month. And then the 95 indicates the year.
• Q.: Colonel, thank you very much. I hope that
will assist the Chamber when they have an opportunity
to review the reports, and assist counsel as well, in
(20)what time these particular observations that are
reflected in the reports are being made.
Now, I don't intend to go through all of
these reports with you, Colonel Kingori, because that
would take more time than I think would be necessary,
(25)but let me ask you: Do the reports that are found in
• A.: Your Honour, they do. (5) • Q.: Now, I'd like you to -- first of all, can you tell us when the attack on the Srebrenica enclave started. • A.: Your Honour, the attack on the enclave started on the 6th of July, 1995. (10) • Q.: And can you summarise the attack, the methods that were used and the targets of the attack? • A.: Your Honour, that day, in the morning, what woke us up was the shelling. "Shelling," we are talking about the usage of heavy weapons, like (15)artillery pieces, mortars, and all that. So that is what woke us up that morning. The attack was concentrated on that day on the village of Srebrenica and Potocari, and as far as I knew, there were no military targets in that area. (20)Like, where they were hitting in Srebrenica, they were hitting on the roads, next to the hospital, near -- hitting houses and all that. As far as I know, there were no military targets in that area that they were targeting. (25)
• Q.: Can you describe the intensity of the
• A.: Your Honour, what I can say is that it was very high. At times we could count over a hundred (5)shells landing in the same place, be it at Srebrenica. You know, a continuous shelling of up to a hundred shells in the same area, and that is quite high intensity, considering the size of those villages. • Q.: Now, you mentioned the hospital. What (10)happened to the hospital in Srebrenica? • A.: Your Honour, the hospital was missed, I think three times. Three shells missed the hospital just by a whisker sort of. We could sense that it could have been targeted in that due to the inaccuracy of the (15)weapons, we thought that was the reason why they could not get a direct hit on the hospital, because the miss was just by a few metres, just by a few metres. • Q.: Was any damage inflicted on the hospital? • A.: Your Honour, other than maybe broken -- okay, (20)broken windows due to fragmentation, there was no serious damage on the hospital. • Q.: What about the PTT building where you and Major Tetteh were headquartered, was that struck by artillery? (25)
• A.: Your Honour, the PTT building was not hit at
• Q.: What is your assessment, Colonel Kingori, about this particular artillery attack over the days (10)that you remained in Srebrenica? Against what kind of targets were these shells directed?
• A.: Your Honour, the target, as far as we knew,
as far as we could get when we were going out for our
patrols during that period, was mainly the populous;
(15)that is, the personnel -- the people in that area, that
is, the civilians. Because after shelling for some
period, you know, targeting the houses in that
particular village, they would wait for some time then
shell the same place again. According to our own
(20)assessment, that meant that they were waiting for the
people to come out to pick the injured and maybe check
the damage and all that, and then they would hit them
again when they're still there. So they wanted, as far
as we were concerned, to get maximum casualties on the
(25)people who were there.
• A.: Your Honour, in my opinion, the main reason was to make sure that they harassed these people in (5)such a way that they are forced to leave the enclave, because as they had said earlier, they did not want the Muslims inside that enclave. They just wanted it for themselves; that is, the Serbs. So they just wanted to cause fear, panic, and force the Muslims to flee that (10)enclave. • Q.: Now, did you eventually leave Srebrenica town and go to Potocari?
• A.: Your Honour, we did, and this was -- we
actually tried to stay in that place. We wanted to be
(15)as close as possible to the concentration of the
shelling so that we could report as objectively as
possible, but a time came when we were also, you know,
threatened. When we sighted a tank positioned in a
direct line of fire, about two kilometres or so from
(20)our location, we felt we were directly threatened and
they could get a direct hit on us, and we feared for
our own safety and decided to leave, though even --
okay. I will not go to that part, but by the time we
were leaving, the Muslims did not want us to leave,
(25)because they felt if we leave them, the Serbs would
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm not sure when Your Honour wants to take a break in time. I'm (10)prepared to proceed. I just am unclear on the timing. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I was just thinking of how to split the last part of the day. Maybe it's a good idea to have a break now. We still have a couple of issues pending which need discussion, (15)so I think that it would be perhaps a good idea to finish the testimony of Colonel Kingori at 2.15, and then we will have 15 minutes left for our discussion. So we are going to have a 20-minute break now, after which we will continue with the testimony of (20)Colonel Kingori. Let me just tell you that we cannot hear this witness later than 2.15, because we have to have 15 minutes for our discussion. --- Recess taken at 12.43 p.m. (25)
--- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.
MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Colonel Kingori, on the 9th of July you went (5)to Potocari; is that correct? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: At approximately what time did you arrive in Potocari and where did you go in Potocari? • A.: We left the PTT building around 1800 hours, (10)and I think we arrived maybe 10, 15 minutes after that. • Q.: Where did you go in Potocari? • A.: Your Honour, in Potocari, we went to the DutchBat Compound. That is where the Dutch Battalion (15)was located. • Q.: Now, the following day, the 10th of July, did you attempt to contact representatives from the Bosnian Serb side? • A.: Your Honour, we attempted. We tried that (20)time, but we were unable to contact them. • Q.: Who did you contact and who were you trying to contact? • A.: Your Honour, we were trying to contact Major Nikolic through your interpreter Petar. (25)
• Q.: Did you succeed?
• Q.: Now, let me turn your attention to the 11th of July, the next day, and can you tell me and tell the Chamber approximately what time refugees (5)started to arrive in and around Potocari on the 11th of July? • A.: Your Honour, the refugees started streaming in in the afternoon on the 11th of July. • Q.: And on the 11th of July, are you able to (10)estimate how many refugees were in and around the UN Compound in Potocari? • A.: Your Honour, what I can remember is that inside the compound there were about 5.000 or so refugees, and outside there were actually more than (15)that. It could have been even up to 7.000, 8.000, or even up to 10.000. • Q.: Can you give the Judges your assessment of the composition of those refugees, the percentage of men to women, the ages of the refugees? (20)
• A.: Your Honour, the percentages -- I might not
be very correct, but the men were fewer than the
women. Let's say -- we can say it's about 80 per cent
women and the other percentage men, and also that the
men who were there were -- okay. Most of them are
(25)older people, you know, beyond fighting age, as I can
• Q.: Was there sufficient food, sufficient water for those refugees? • A.: As far as I can remember, we had problems (5)with water and food. Water -- actually, at that time we did not have any to feed those people with, and they were very thirsty. Even when I said -- okay. In the DutchBat Compound we had some water, but those who were outside did not have any at all. (10) • Q.: What do you recall the weather conditions to be like on the 11th of July? • A.: Your Honour, on the 11th it was hot, very hot during the day, and in the evening it was very, very cold. (15) • Q.: Now, on the 11th of July, did you receive a telephone call from a representative from the Bosnian Serb side, either a telephone call or radio contact, some form of communication? • A.: Your Honour, on the 11th, Petar tried to (20)communicate to us, requesting for a meeting with Major Nikolic. That is now us and UNPROFOR. But when we requested the UN headquarters for approval, we were not allowed to go there for that meeting. • Q.: Why not? (25)
• A.: The assessment of the situation at that time
(10) • Q.: Now, did you see any Muslim fighters, Muslim people who were armed in and around the UN Compound in Potocari on the 11th of July? • A.: Your Honour, there were several, many BSA soldiers who came there that day. (15) • Q.: If I said Serb soldiers, I made a mistake. I meant to say Muslim fighters. Did you see any Muslim fighters on the 11th of July? • A.: Your Honour, there were no Muslims soldiers there at all. (20) • Q.: On the 11th of July, was there any shelling in and around the compound at Potocari? • A.: Your Honour, as far as I can remember, shelling was ongoing, even at that time.
• Q.: Do you remember what areas were being
(25)shelled, if you can recall?
• Q.: Could you see where those rockets or where that artillery fire was hitting? • A.: Your Honour, some of them we could see, because -- like, the ones which were falling around (10)Potocari we could see. But the ones going beyond, we could not know where they were hitting. But at least for Srebrenica we had one interpreter who had gone there and who from there could tell us what was going on. At least Srebrenica was being hit also. (15) • Q.: Now, let me turn your attention to the next day, the 12th of July. Did you see the arrival of Bosnian Serb soldiers on the 12th of July? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: Can you -- well, let me ask you this (20)question: Approximately what time do you recall they arrived?
• A.: Your Honour, this was in the morning
section. If I can remember very well, it was in the
morning section, and -- yes, they arrived in the
(25)morning section.
• A.: Your Honour, the soldiers I remember seeing coming over there wore black -- they had black (5)uniforms. They looked different from the normal BSA soldiers we used to see around there. • Q.: In addition to those soldiers, did you see any other soldiers? • A.: Your Honour, I also saw the normal, ordinary (10)soldiers in green camouflage, and -- that is, their normal BSA camouflage -- and also there were some in blue, which was normally being used by the police. • Q.: What was the reaction of the Muslim people when the Bosnian Serb soldiers arrived? (15) • A.: Your Honour, the actual reaction was they were all afraid when they saw the soldiers passing through there. You could see fear in them, uncertainty. They did not know what will happen to them, because they were now in one place. And they (20)were always -- they were afraid of the worst, you know, what could happen to them at that particular time. You could see it in their eyes, their reaction, the way they talked. They were all afraid.
• Q.: Now, sometime on the 12th of July, did
(25)Bosnian Serb military representatives come to the UN
• A.: Your Honour, they did. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges the circumstances under which they came and who came? (5) • A.: The ones who came in, they were just coming to check whether there were any Muslim soldiers inside there, Muslim soldiers, you know, whether they were armed or not. At least they were looking for Muslim soldiers inside there. (10)Secondly, they wanted to see who is actually housed there, because when we met them, we told them it is only the injured people, the women and older men of Srebrenica who are inside there. And they sort of maybe did not trust what we told them, and they decided (15)to go in and check for themselves. • Q.: Were you there when these representatives from the Bosnian Serb army came? • A.: Your Honour, I was personally there. • Q.: Can you identify any of the individuals who (20)came to the UN Compound at that time? • A.: Your Honour, I can. I can remember some of them. At least I can remember some of them. • Q.: Who were they?
• A.: Your Honour, at least there was Major
(25)Nikolic, he was there; the interpreter, Petar, was also
(5) • Q.: You've previously identified Petar. You said Krstic. • A.: Yes, Your Honour. • Q.: Who was Krstic? • A.: Your Honour, he was introduced to us together (10)with the other senior officers, and he was introduced as being one of the senior officers from the BSA side. And I cannot remember his actual position in that hierarchy. I can't remember that well. • Q.: Have you seen a picture of an individual who (15)you have identified as Krstic? • A.: Your Honour, I have. • Q.: Is that individual in this courtroom today? • A.: Mind if I stand up? • Q.: Please. (20) • A.: It's that individual there [indicates] • Q.: Can you identify what he's wearing, for the record?
• A.: That time he was in green camouflage, but his
weight was a bit -- difficult for me to identify him
(25)now.
• A.: Right now he's in a black suit and a blue shirt and a dotted tie. MR. HARMON: Could the record reflect, (5)Mr. President, that the defendant has been identified by Colonel Kingori. • Q.: You can have a seat, Colonel Kingori. Now, let me ask that -- let me ask you this question: Who introduced you to General Krstic? (10) • A.: Your Honour, anyway, I didn't know him as a General at that time, but he was introduced to me by Major Nikolic. • Q.: And how long did the individuals Major Nikolic, General Krstic, Petar, and others, remain with (15)you in and around the UN Compound on that occasion? • A.: Your Honour, we were together in that area, inside the compound, for about 15 minutes or so, somewhere there. • Q.: Now, let me ask -- you said you could not -- (20)you didn't know the names of some of the others, but you could recognise them. Did I have an opportunity to show you Prosecutor's Exhibit number 28, and did you identify an individual from within this exhibit? • A.: Your Honour, that's true. (25)
MR. HARMON: Now, could I have Prosecutor's
• Q.: Can you identify one of the individuals who (5)you saw with General Krstic and Petar and Major Nikolic at the UN Compound? • A.: This individual was there that time. MR. HARMON: On this particular exhibit, Mr. President, the witness has pointed to the (10)individual in the left-hand side of the photograph. Now, Mr. Usher, if you can give that back to me, I will show you another photograph. • Q.: This is Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/1. Do you see that same individual in this particular (15)photograph? • A.: Your Honour, I can see him. He's the one here. • Q.: Indicating the individual on the far left-hand side of that particular image. (20) MR. HARMON: Thank you very much, Mr. Usher. • Q.: Now, Colonel, after the individuals left, did you have an opportunity to see General Mladic? • A.: Your Honour, I did.
• Q.: Can you describe to the Judges the
(25)circumstances under which you met General Mladic?
• Q.: What was he doing? I'm sorry. What was he doing? • A.: At that particular moment, he was -- I can't remember whether that is the time he was (15)distributing -- yeah. That is the time he was distributing soft drinks and candies and all that to the refugees who were outside the main compound. • Q.: Now, in addition to General Mladic distributing sweets and drinks to the refugees, did you (20)see anybody else doing that? • A.: Your Honour, there were other senior officers and soldiers who were doing the same, the distribution. • Q.: Now, let me show you, if I could, Prosecutor's Exhibit 78. (25)
MR. HARMON: This, Mr. President, is a very
(5)
• Q.: Colonel, it should come up on your monitor in
front of you. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Colonel, did you see that scene or scenes (10)similar to that? • A.: Your Honour, I was there that time when that distribution was going on. • Q.: Could you tell the Judges what else you saw?
• A.: At that time, when the distribution was going
(15)on, there was someone with a video camera. At least he
was filming whenever the distribution was going on. As
far as I thought at that time, it was maybe a PR or,
let's say, a propaganda issue. That is what I thought,
that maybe they want to show the world that they are
(20)doing something for these people, and maybe the
International Community could forget whatever they have
done against those people.
Also what I saw that time was immediately the
camera turned to a different direction, some of the
(25)soldiers could pick the candies back, you know, from
• Q.: Now, Colonel Kingori -- JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry, I do not understand (10)this last thing. You said -- what did you conclude when they picked back the sweets? What did you conclude? That it was not against the Muslims? • A.: Your Honour, what I concluded was that if they're picking these candies back from the (15)individuals, the main purpose of giving them was to show, because the filming was going on, to show the International Community that they are doing good things to these refugees, so that the opinion of the International Community can forget or can ignore the (20)atrocities they have already committed to those people. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. MR. HARMON:
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, did you see General Mladic
(25)on one occasion or more than one occasion on the
• A.: On the 12th, I saw him twice. I think twice, yes. • Q.: What were the circumstances of the second (5)occasion?
• A.: The second occasion was when I realised that
there was separation, separation going on between the
men and the women and children. And men were being
taken to a certain location, actually a house on the
(10)left side as you go from Srebrenica, actually out of
Potocari. I did not understand why the separation was
there. And also the way the men were being kept in
that building was not in a good manner. There were
very many. It was crowded. They were stepping on each
(15)other.
The whole scenario did not look good to me,
and that is why I went to General Mladic and asked him
what is actually going on. Why are they doing
something like that; that is, putting people together,
(20)huddling them together in such a small place, and all
the men, why they were doing that. He told me, they
don't have anything -- there's nothing bad they're
doing. In fact, the people there are very
comfortable. They're very comfortable inside there.
(25)Then he requested me to accompany him, but
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, you said you tried to go (15)into the house earlier. Who prevented you from going into the house where these men were being kept? • A.: BSA soldiers who were guarding that place. The place was being guarded by BSA soldiers. They were the ones who told me I cannot be allowed to go inside (20)that building. • Q.: Okay. And as a result of that, you went to see General Mladic, I take it, and that's when he returned with you. • A.: Right. That is what I did. (25)
• Q.: Now, did you also have another occasion to
• A.: Your Honour, I did. • Q.: Explain to the Judges the circumstances under (5)which you saw General Krstic and other high-ranking officers. • A.: Your Honour, this was partly -- at the same time when we were with General Mladic, these guys were there. All of them, they were there and around. After (10)that -- I cannot remember the other place where I met him. • Q.: Now, when you say "these guys," who are the individuals you said are "these guys"? Can you identify them more precisely? (15) • A.: Your Honour, the people I'm talking about are the senior BSA soldiers -- BSA officers. We're talking about Major Nikolic, Colonel Vukovic -- the ones I can remember the names -- and also Krstic, and another person who introduced himself to me as the legal (20)officer, a legal officer. Can I remember the name? Oskuminic or someone like that. But he told me he's a legal officer and even wrote his address for me, which I still keep. • Q.: What language did the legal officer speak? (25)
• A.: Your Honour, the legal officer was speaking
• Q.: I'd like to show you a photograph of (5)Prosecutor's 28/13.1. MR. HARMON: And this is found, Mr. Usher, in tab 11. That's it. Yes. Could you place that on the ELMO, please? • Q.: Can you identify this individual? (10) • A.: Your Honour, this is the guy who presented himself as the legal officer. I can remember him very well. • Q.: And the individual who was speaking English? • A.: And the person who was speaking English. (15) • Q.: Now, previously in this testimony you also identify an individual who was found at Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/8.1. MR. HARMON: Which, Mr. Usher, is found in tab 6. Place that on the ELMO, please. (20) • Q.: The individual on the left-hand side of this Prosecutor's Exhibit, did you see him again that day? • A.: Your Honour, he was there. We were with him there. • Q.: On the second occasion? (25)
• A.: Yes.
MR. HARMON: Which is found in tab 2, Mr. Usher. Place that on the ELMO. (5) • Q.: The individual you've previously identified in Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4, did you see him as well? • A.: Yes, Your Honour. He is the individual. • Q.: Now, were you in a position to see what the accused, General Krstic, and these individuals were (10)doing? • A.: What I can remember very well was that they were coming in and going out. They were at one time with us and with General Mladic there, and at times they would go out there, I mean, to the soldiers, talk (15)to them, which, as far as I was concerned, they were giving orders to these soldiers. Then they would later come back and join us or go to another place. So they were in and out. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, I'm finished with (20)that exhibit. Thank you very much. • Q.: Now, did you see the accused and these other individuals near the area where these Muslim men who had been separated were being detained?
• A.: Your Honour, when we went there with
(25)General Mladic, these people were there. These -- we
MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/17 placed on the ELMO. • Q.: I'd like to ask you if you can identify this (5)particular location. Do you recognise that particular building? • A.: Yes, Your Honour, I can. • Q.: What is that building? • A.: This is the building we were calling White (10)House. This is the place where the men were being taken to. • Q.: Was there more than one building where the men were being taken to? • A.: Your Honour, this was one of them. The other (15)one was somewhere in a different location, but this was the place I said after the separation of the men were being handled together. • Q.: Let me show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 53/B [sic], which is a new exhibit. (20) MR. HARMON: Let me ask that that be placed on the ELMO. • Q.: And ask you, Colonel Kingori, if you can locate on Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/3B the second location where men were being detained. (25)
• A.: Your Honour, it's not very easy to detect
• Q.: Would you take a pen, please -- there should be a pen available to you -- and would you circle the (5)area where the second location is where the men were being detained? • A.: [Marks] • Q.: All right. Thank you very much, Colonel. Now, did you actually see the men being separated, and (10)did you see what happened to them when they approached one or both of these locations?
• A.: If I can start with the White Building, I was
personally there, and I saw the men being taken towards
that building. They were being forced to leave their
(15)belongings at the road junction with the truck that
leads to the building just somewhere there, all their
belongings. By that I mean even the money they had,
the pocketknives they had, their wallets, and any other
belongings, maybe bags and all that. They were leaving
(20)all of them out there before they entered the
building.
As for the other house, the one I have just
marked, the men who were being taken there, I was told
by some Dutch soldiers that there were some men who had
(25)been taken behind that building, and they didn't know
• Q.: Could you take -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, I'm sorry for the interruption, but I saw in the transcript on page 92, 22nd line, it mentions the (15)exhibit, your exhibit 53/B, and it should be corrected 5/3B. I believe one needs to pay attention because this marking, this kind of numbering could cause problems later on. It is not 53, it is 5/3, and I should like to ask either the court reporters or the (20)interpreters or you to pay attention when exhibits are called out. I'm sorry for having to interrupt you. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.
• Q.: Colonel, could you turn your attention,
please, to Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/B -- I'm sorry,
(25)5/3B. That is on the ELMO in front of you. You said
• A.: The reason why I wanted to go to that particular area was that the Dutch -- some Dutch (5)soldiers had reported that men were being taken behind there, and were not returning. Whenever they were taken behind there, none of them was coming back. So mine was purely to go and investigate what was going on. And according to him, he told me that shooting was (10)going on behind. There was some shooting. They could hear some shooting there. And so I went there to investigate. • Q.: Could you hear some shooting? • A.: I personally did. I heard some shooting when (15)I tried -- when I attempted to go behind there. • Q.: Could you take your pointer, please, and indicate the area where you attempted to pass. • A.: The place I attempted to pass was through here, behind these buildings [indicates] (20) • Q.: Indicating the buildings that are circled? • A.: Yes. And that is where I could not be led through.
• Q.: Were you able to determine the shooting
point, where you heard the sounds of the shots coming
(25)from?
• Q.: Now, let me ask you, Colonel Kingori: I'd like to return to some of your earlier testimony where you said that you personally saw Muslim males having (10)their belongings taken out of their -- off their persons. Did that include their identifications? • A.: I think one thing to say there is that it's not -- things were not being removed from their pocket. They were forced to remove them. And (15)secondly, that that included the identification and everything. When an individual removed his items, whatever he had, then he would go ahead to another soldier who would physically search whether there is anything inside. But still, if there was anything, (20)they were being forced -- they were being told to remove them and put them down. So this actually included even their identification cards.
• Q.: Now, let me ask you this question, Colonel.
Had you had a conversation with any representative of
(25)the Bosnian Serb army about what was going to happen to
• A.: Your Honour, I asked that, and the individual who answered me that question -- that is, the first question I had asked was: Why the separation? Then (5)the second question was: What do they intend to do with these men after they separate them? And the answer was given by the person identified as -- having told me he was the legal officer, he told me that the reason why they are separating the men was for them to (10)use them in exchange to their own prisoners of war who had been taken by the Muslims. • Q.: Now, in light of what you saw, that is, identification papers and other personal effects being dropped on the ground, what conclusions, if any, did (15)you come to? • A.: It was a bit difficult now to know what was actually going on, but if you do not -- normally, if you don't want to have someone -- if you do not want someone to have an identification card, it literally (20)means that maybe you don't want him in that way to identify himself or be identified by someone else, because that is the only thing -- that is, the ID card -- the only thing one can use to identify himself. (25)
• Q.: And did you ever go back and inform the
• A.: Your Honour, I did not ask him exactly, you (5)know, that way, whether -- I mean, as you have put it, I did not put the question as such. The question I had asked was why they were being separated, but not why they were leaving their ID cards there. • Q.: Did you see -- how long did these separations (10)last on the day of the 12th of July? • A.: Your Honour, it took quite some time. It took quite some time. • Q.: And did you see any buses that left the area with just men in them? (15) • A.: That is correct. I saw. • Q.: And where were these men being taken from before they were put on the buses?
• A.: Your Honour, there were two sets here. The
main one was the men who were being taken from that
(20)white building, the ones who had been put together
earlier. They were put on their own buses, different
from the ones carrying the women and children, and we
did not know where their destination was, though they
were telling us they are going to take them, I think,
(25)to Zvornik or somewhere. But we did not -- they did
• Q.: Did you have any conversations with any of the men, the Muslim men who had been put on those (5)buses?
• A.: This was an emotional period. This was an
emotional time, as far as I was concerned, because some
of the men are people we had lived together with in
that village, and they were being put in these buses.
(10)Even, you know, when they were lined up beside the
road, they could cry and shout to us, requesting for
assistance, asking us what we can do to help them.
They could shout and say, "You know these people are
going to kill us, and then you are not doing anything
(15)about it." And I mean, to us it was a bit emotional.
It was very emotional.
And also to them. You could see the fear.
There was a lot of fear. They didn't know what would
happen. They felt, you know, that they are
(20)definitely -- something bad was actually going to be
done to them. You know, we could see it, and they
could also shout about it. In fact, some of them I
even tried to tell them with the literal language of
theirs that I could use, telling them not to worry; we
(25)have been told where they were being taken to, that
• Q.: Colonel Kingori, what was the age range of the males who had been separated and who had been (15)placed in the White House and the other house? • A.: The men in the White House, those were the younger men, if I can say, because the others who were in the main DutchBat Compound were the older people, the very old, who some of them could hardly walk well. (20)But these ones -- those ones in the White House were the younger, you know, slightly younger people. • Q.: Who was the youngest person you saw separated on the 12th of July?
• A.: That time they were separating even some very
(25)young boys, some as young as 13, 14, and they were
• Q.: Now, let me ask you to turn your attention to (15)the 13th of July. Did the separations that you've described witnessing on the 12th of July continue on the 13th? • A.: Yes, Your Honour, they did. • Q.: Can you describe to the Judges the separation (20)process that you saw on the 13th? • A.: The separation on the 13th was just almost a continuation of what was happening earlier; it was only that now -- it was almost a continuation of the same, as I can see. (25)
• Q.: Now, again, when you say "almost a
(5) • A.: At this time no men were being taken to that -- to the White House, but at least they were still abandoning their belongings, they were being forced to leave their belongings. Because some of these at that time were those who were in the DutchBat (10)Compound. MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I'm going to ask that Prosecutor's Exhibit 75 be played. It's a film clip that lasts approximately three minutes. • Q.: Colonel, you have seen this film clip (15)before. You are in this film clip. And I'd like you to take a look at this film clip and then you can discuss with the Court your observations about it.
MR. HARMON: So if we could please play
Prosecutor's Exhibit 75. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Is that you, Colonel? • A.: That's me. • Q.: Are these the abandoned belongings, Colonel? (25)
• A.: Your Honour, these are the belongings which
• Q.: The man in the blue vest, is that a Serb or a Dutchman? • A.: That is a Serb soldier. (5) • Q.: Are these abandoned belongings as well? • A.: Yes, these are some of the belongings which were abandoned there. • Q.: One last question about the man who you just identified as a Serb soldier. He was wearing a blue (10)vest. Was that -- what kind of vest was that? • A.: This was a vest that we used to wear when we were there. It was bullet-proof. I don't you know what we can -- you know, some of them were not actually bullet-proof, but they were to protect our bodies, that (15)is, the chest, from many small arms. And I'm sure it had been stolen from some of the Dutch soldiers. • Q.: Can you explain to the Judges that particular part of the film clip that they have just seen?
• A.: That particular part was when I noticed the
(20)separation, that is, when the men who were being
removed from the group and being taken to the White
House, and I decided to ask for permission -- I mean,
decided to be taken there. I decided to request to be
taken to that White House to see what is going on. So
(25)in fact I was talking to the Serb soldiers who were
(5) MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I know you had indicated 2.15 would be an appropriate time to break, and I therefore would suggest we conclude at this point so we can hear the motions and deal with the motions that have been raised by counsel. (10)Colonel, thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, you have not finished the examination-in-chief of this witness, I assume. MR. HARMON: I have about 10 more minutes, (15)Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, then. Colonel Kingori, we have to finish with your testimony for today. You will have to come back on (20)Monday at 9.30. I hope you will have a possibility to enjoy a nice weekend in The Hague. Have a nice weekend, and we'll see you again on Monday.
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your
Honour.
MR. HARMON: There has been some discussion
that has taken place.
In respect of the first application made by
the Defence, I understand that application to be that,
(15)one, as a matter of principle, the Defence is
interested in obtaining additional time in order to
permit them to investigate in the event that there is
new material testified to by a witness that is not
contained in a statement that has been provided to the
(20)Defence pursuant to the normal discovery rules. And
the second part of their request is to permit the
Defence to call back certain witnesses under those
circumstances so that the Defence can question those
witnesses about the new information after a proper
(25)investigation has been completed by the Defence.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, do you wish to add something? (5)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President,
I should like to make one thing clear. I think there
is one slight difference between our two positions. We
requested the same treatment, both in respect of the
events that were not stated in witness statements, as
(10)well as for the witness statements that we received
prior to the trial, and after the trial began. We
requested the same treatment for both statements. This
goes to the quality of the evidence that has been
disclosed.
(15)As regards this other condition, the
condition of a showing, of the necessity to make a good
showing, showing of materiality, I think that this is
contained in our material. I believe that we are quite
clear in respect of that.
(20)Let me just try to broaden the point a little
bit. We are requesting the same treatment in respect
of events that were not contained in witness
statements, as well as the events that are contained in
witness statements, but the statements that have been
(25)received shortly prior to the beginning of the trial,
(5)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, Mr. Visnjic. We will examine your
application together with the response made here during
the discussion, and I believe that the Chamber will
soon be able to make its ruling, perhaps on Monday, but
(10)probably not at the beginning of the session. I'm
telling you this because I myself cannot be present on
Tuesday. So Judge Riad and Judge Wald will be sitting
on Tuesday, and the session will be presided by
Judge Riad.
(15)In view of that, I think that we have to try
and make a ruling on Monday. And I don't forget that
we have another ruling pending, which hasn't been made
yet, because it has to be made by the full Chamber,
which was not the case this week because the absence of
(20)Judge Patricia Wald. We have to wait for her and we
will make both rulings next week.
I hope that for the time being this is all,
but I should perhaps tell you, I do not have my
schedule here, but as regards the programme of the
(25)Chamber, we're trying really hard to establish, to the
MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you. I didn't
address yet, Mr. President, the second part of the
motion that was made by the Defence, which was an
(5)application for more time because of what was, in fact,
an omission in the B/C/S version of the amended
indictment, and I think the record should contain or
refer to the certificate and the nature of the error
that was presented and which limited the Defence, my
(10)colleagues from the Defence, in understanding the full
extent of the indictment, because as I understand it,
and I have a copy of the certificate from the
registrar, on the French and the English version, in
paragraph 24, the word at the end of the sentence of
(15)paragraph 24, the word "included" was present, but in
the B/C/S version of the amended indictment that was
made available to my colleagues, the word "included"
was omitted, and it is based on that omission that the
Defence is requesting, as I understand their request,
(20)additional time to investigate three locations that
have been testified about by Mr. Ruez, the first being
Nova Kasaba; the second, Konjevic Polje; and the third,
the Jadar River, the Defence believing that the list on
the indictment that they received was an exclusive
(25)list, and in the French and English languages, the
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, Mr. Harmon. You may be seated.
(5)Let me just remind you that the Chamber has
already made a ruling in this matter. It was one of
our rulings. I do not want to insist, but I just want
to remind you that we do not work on an authoritative
basis, and as soon as parties have their reasons for a
(10)particular motion, we can always try and revise our
schedules. We're not slaves of an organisation or a
calendar.
I understand that the Defence needs some
additional time to prepare itself. As soon as reasons
(15)can be explained and justified, the Chamber can
exercise its authority in an appropriate matter.
Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon, for
reminding us of this problem, but as regards the
specific issues of the inclusion of the three
(20)locations, Nova Kasaba, Zeleni Jadar, and Konjevic
Polje, the Chamber has already made a ruling.
We will, of course, take into account what
has been said here. We, in general, are mindful of the
needs of the parties in respect of their respective
(25)preparations, and we will make another ruling in
(5) --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.32 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of April, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
