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/ Colormap • Page 3065 • {1/120} (1)Monday, 22 May 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m. JUDGE RIAD: Good morning. I would like to greet the parties, the accused, and all our staff, as well as our guests in the gallery. You have been informed that Judge Rodrigues (10)is on an urgent mission and I will be presiding today. As for tomorrow and after tomorrow, Judge Wald will also be on an urgent mission so I will be the Presiding Judge. Now I would like our witness to take the (15)oath, please. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: DRAZEN ERDEMOVIC JUDGE RIAD: Please be seated. Mr. Harmon, the witness is yours.
MR. HARMON: Yes. Good morning, Judge Riad,
Judge Wald. Good morning to my colleagues for the
(25)Defence.
• Q.: Good morning, Mr. Erdemovic. • A.: Good morning. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, I'm going to be asking you a (5)number of questions on direct examination, and following my examination you'll be asked questions by my colleagues from the Defence, and following their questions I'll ask you questions once again, and then the Judges will have an opportunity to ask you (10)questions. Let me start, Mr. Erdemovic, by asking you how old you are. • A.: I'm 28 and a half. • Q.: Where were you born? (15) • A.: In Tuzla, a town called Tuzla. • Q.: What is your ethnicity? • A.: Croat, Bosnian Croat. • Q.: Could you tell us about your educational background. (20) • A.: I went to a school for mechanical technicians. I'm a locksmith. • Q.: Before the war, then, you were a locksmith; is that correct? • A.: Yes, but I hadn't been working yet. (25)
• Q.: Now, I want to go into your history before
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Was that guilty plea pursuant to a plea agreement that was entered into between yourself and (10)your counsel and representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, the underlying facts that supported your guilty plea was that you and members of your unit, (15)along with soldiers from another unit of the Bosnian Serb army, did shoot and kill and did participate in the execution of unarmed Muslim men at the Branjevo Military Farm on the 16th of July, 1995; is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: On the 5th of March, 1998, were you sentenced by a Trial Chamber of this Tribunal to serve a term of five years' imprisonment? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Were you given credit for all of the time
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Have you now completed your term of imprisonment? • A.: Yes. • Q.: You are testifying today freely and voluntarily; is that correct? (10) • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Judge Wald, I would ask the Court to take judicial notice of its own records in this proceeding. There is an indictment and a sentencing judgement. I've had an opportunity to (15)talk to my colleagues from the Defence and we discussed the issue of judicial notice, pursuant to Rule 94, and they have no objection to Your Honours taking such notice. • Q.: Now, Mr. Erdemovic, I'd like to focus your (20)attention on your own military background in the various armies that were in the former Yugoslavia. First of all, let me begin by asking you, did you serve in the JNA? • A.: I did. (25)
• Q.: How long of a period of time were you in the
• A.: I was in the JNA for a year as my regular service, and then another four months in reserve forces. (5) • Q.: When did you finally leave the JNA? • A.: At the end of March 1992. • Q.: After leaving the JNA, did you return to your home in the Tuzla area? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: After you were in Tuzla, were you again called up by the JNA and asked to serve in the JNA? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you serve in the JNA again or did you refuse? (15) • A.: I refused. I returned my call-up papers and said that I had already spent enough time in the army. • Q.: Did you at any point in time, then, serve in the Territorial Defence in your village? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Describe the nature of that service. What kind of service was that? • A.: It was a service in our local community. At night we would walk around the village and keep guard in our village. (25)
• Q.: Now, did you eventually join the Armija, the
• A.: Yes. I think it was in July 1992, I got a call-up to report to the barracks in Tuzla. • Q.: Did you respond to that call-up? (5) • A.: I did. • Q.: Did you serve in the Armija from July of 1992 until approximately October of 1992? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you describe your duties and (10)responsibilities while you were serving in the army. • A.: I was a member of a reconnaissance unit on mortars. • Q.: Where did you serve the majority of your time? (15) • A.: In a position above Gornja Tuzla or Upper Tuzla. • Q.: Were you on the front lines most of the time? • A.: Yes. Yes, but as a reconnoitre. • Q.: Now, when you came to the Tribunal initially (20)and you had a conversation with an investigator from my office, Jean-Rene Ruez, did you tell him that you had served in the ABiH? • A.: No.
• Q.: Subsequently, when you testified publicly
(25)under oath at the Rule 61 hearing in 1996, did you then
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, later did you volunteer to serve in the HVO? (5) • A.: In the military police of the HVO, in the village next to mine. • Q.: Why did you volunteer to serve in the HVO? • A.: Because I got a position in the military police, and because I didn't want to be exposed to (10)danger on the front. • Q.: So had you become essentially tired of serving on the front lines and wanted to have a safer position? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Now, did you serve in the HVO from October of 1992 until November of 1993? • A.: Yes. • Q.: While you were serving in the HVO, were you arrested? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you briefly explain to the Trial Chamber the circumstances of your arrest.
• A.: I was assisting civilians, Serbs from Tuzla,
to cross into territory under the control of the army
(25)of Republika Srpska. In the first attempt I was not
(5) • Q.: Were you put in custody as a result of that arrest? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Ultimately were you released from custody, and did you return to the HVO military police to serve (10)with them? • A.: No. • Q.: What happened then? • A.: When they questioned me and when I told them everything, they beat me, mistreated me. They demanded (15)that I admit certain things that I did not know of, some other attempts of transporting Serbs. I was questioned by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and their police, and after some time they turned me back to the HVO police, and I asked the head of the HVO police to (20)let me go home to have a bath and change my uniform. • Q.: What did you do then?
• A.: When the head of the military police released
me I went home, and I met a neighbour, a Serb, who
asked me whether I could help him to cross into the
(25)territory held by the Serbs. I told him, "You know
• Q.: Did you then leave to the Republika Srpska? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: When did you arrive in the Republika Srpska? • A.: On the 3rd of November, 1993. • Q.: What did you do then? • A.: When I reached Serb territory I was questioned by the command, which was headquartered in (15)Lopare, at the foot of Mount Majevica. Regarding the group I had transferred, this group had told them that I had been correct towards the Serbs and that I was correct with everyone. And after a day long of questioning, in the evening they told me that the next (20)day I would be released, as well as my wife and those two other persons who were of Croat ethnicity and who were with me.
• Q.: If could you describe very briefly,
Mr. Erdemovic, what you did from that point on until
(25)the point in time when you joined the army of the
(5)
• A.: When I reached Bijeljina, I started having
problems with paramilitary units, of which certain
people from Tuzla were members, they were Serbs, and
they mistreated me. And this man who promised to help
me go to Switzerland simply turned his back on me and
(10)my wife and said, "I can't help you." I had no other
choice. But a Croat who was with me called up his
relative who was living in the Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia, in Titov Vrbas, and he came about a day
later to Bijeljina to take us to Titov Vrbas. I
(15)couldn't stay in Bijeljina at that time because they
were threatening me. They said I had to join a
paramilitary unit or simply that I couldn't stay on, I
would be killed.
So my wife, the two Croats, and I, and this
(20)man who came to collect us from Titov Vrbas, we they
went to Titov Vrbas to stay with him. That was also in
the month of November. After that, I can't remember
exactly, but I think we stayed in Titov Vrbas until
January, my wife and I and these two Croats. As we had
(25)no money, we simply couldn't stay with these people,
• Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, when you joined this special (5)detachment, how many men were in it? • A.: Eight. • Q.: Did this special unit evolve into the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: Yes, in October 1994. (10) • Q.: Could you tell the Judges what kind of unit was the 10th Sabotage Detachment. • A.: It was a sabotage unit which would go into the rear of the enemy and blow up munition warehouses, artillery storages, and that sort of thing. That is (15)what we did behind the enemy lines. • Q.: So you were an infiltration and sabotage unit. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, turning our attention to July of 1995, (20)can you tell me approximately how many men were in the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: Do you mean the whole detachment? • Q.: Yes.
• A.: As far as I was able to assess, there could
(25)have been about 60 men. I don't know the exact
• Q.: Now, was the 10th Sabotage Detachment subordinate to the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb army? • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Would you describe to the Judges the structure of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, how many platoons there were, where they were located? • A.: There were two platoons; one was in Bijeljina and the other was in Vlasenica. (10) • Q.: Now, how large, how many men were in each of those respective platoons? • A.: I think in Bijeljina there were about 30 men. I don't know about Vlasenica. But perhaps a similar number, three or four or five men less, (15)perhaps. • Q.: Let's focus your attention on the Bijeljina platoon that was part of the 10th Sabotage Detachment. Of those approximately 30 men, how many of those men were involved in infiltration and sabotage activities, (20)and how many of those 30 men were rear services people who would support your activities? • A.: I think that in the infiltration and sabotage activities, there were about 22 men, roughly, I would say. I don't know the exact number of course. (25)
• Q.: Did the remaining men then participate in
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you tell us who the commander of the Bijeljina platoon was? (5) • A.: It was Franc Kos. • Q.: Did he have a nickname? • A.: We called him Slovenac, the Slovene, or Zuco, we used to call him Zuco. • Q.: Who was the commander of the Vlasenica (10)platoon? • A.: I only know that they called him Lule. I don't know anything else. • Q.: I'd like you to then identify some of the hierarchy of the 10th Sabotage Detachment as you knew (15)it in July of 1995. Could you please tell us, from the highest levels working down to the level of Franc Kos and Lule, what was the reporting chain of command?
• A.: As far as I know, in first place there was
Colonel Salapura from the Main Staff, the intelligence
(20)centre, he was there from the beginning when there were
eight of us, and later on as well. Under him, I think
I got to know in March 1995, Major Pecanac. Underneath
Pecanac, there was Milorad Pelemis; he was First
Lieutenant. Underneath Pelemis, there was Radoslav
(25)Kremenovic, who was a First Lieutenant who came to the
(5) • Q.: Thank you. Now, you participated in some sabotage and infiltration activities, as did other members of your unit. When your unit travelled to an area in the Republika Srpska that was under the command of, say, the Drina Corps or a brigade, what was the (10)procedure, if any, to notify the other members of the VRS that you were going to be operating in and out of their territory? Could you tell the Judges, please.
• A.: I know for certain what the situation was
like at Mount Majevica, and that was the zone of
(15)responsibility of the Majevica Brigade. Before we
would start out from Bijeljina, the commander, or
leader, would have to inform the command which was in
that area of responsibility that we were coming, and
what time we would be coming. I don't know that -- I
(20)know that they didn't speak of the actual operations
that would take place in that territory, and when I say
"The zone of responsibility," it is a broader area.
So they would be informed of our arrival and that we
would have to undertake operations in that zone of
(25)responsibility. They didn't actually say what
(5) • Q.: So informing them was, in part, to ensure your own safety; is that correct? • A.: Yes, both our safety and theirs. • Q.: Now, when you conducted these operations, these sabotage and infiltration operations, normally (10)did you conduct them with members of your unit alone, or were they joint operations? When I say "joint operations," Mr. Erdemovic, I'm talking about operations with members of, say, a brigade or another company? What was the routine, the normal (15)modis operandi? • A.: In the areas where we knew for certain where we were supposed to pass and what we were supposed to do, we worked alone. But there were operations, for example, when we entered through an underground pit (20)between Bratunac and Srebrenica, then we were led by a group which was from Bratunac because we didn't know this mine very well, and there were several corridors and we might have lost our way had we done it alone.
• Q.: In the operation that you just testified
(25)about, when members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment
(5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: But other than give you guidance in the mines, those people didn't participate in the operation; is that correct? • A.: That's correct. (10) • Q.: Now, I want to focus your attention now to the attack on Srebrenica itself that took place in July of 1995, and, particularly, I want to focus your attention on the role of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in that attack. (15)Could you tell the Judges on what date your unit, the 10th Sabotage Detachment, deployed to the area of Srebrenica? • A.: On the 10th of July, 1995. • Q.: And -- (20) • A.: In the evening hours. • Q.: From whom did you receive your deployment orders?
• A.: In the morning we received orders from the
commander of the platoon, Franc Kos, in Bijeljina, that
(25)we should prepare to move into action.
• A.: Yes. Yes, but we weren't told beforehand where we would be going until we actually got there. (5) • Q.: How many members of your platoon were deployed to the area of Srebrenica to participate in the assault on Srebrenica? • A.: I think between 15 and 20. I'm not quite sure of the exact number. That's what I think. (10) • Q.: Did you, in fact, commence an assault on Srebrenica on the 11th of July? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you receive any special instructions prior to the assault from any of your superior (15)officers? • A.: Yes. In the morning of the 11th, Pelemis came and told us that in no case should be fire at civilians and that we should send the civilians off to the football stadium at Srebrenica. He told us on the (20)occasion that the resistance would probably be strong and that at the first mosque would be the first resistance, that is to say, at the entrance into town.
• Q.: Now, when you participated in the assault,
did you do this only with members of your unit, the
(25)10th Sabotage Detachment, or did you participate in the
• A.: Pelemis said that we would be joined by some 15 men, I think about 15 men, from the Drina Wolves. • Q.: Did you know the Drina Wolves were part of (5)the Drina Corps? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, you told us earlier in your testimony that normally the 10th Sabotage Detachment operated exclusively with its own men. On this occasion, on the (10)assault on Srebrenica, you're telling us that you worked with another unit, part of the Drina Corps. Is that correct? • A.: Yes. And this seemed to us to be a little unusual because we were used to working on our own. (15)But another thing that seemed strange to me and unusual was that we were not a unit to take control of the town. We were intended for sabotage operations. • Q.: So your normal mission for your unit had changed from sabotage to one of being part of the (20)invading or the assaulting force; is that correct? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Now, what was the objective of your group's
operation? Were you informed of what your objective
was and what the Drina Wolves, who were working with
(25)you, what was their objective?
• Q.: When you say Sekovici, Vlasenica, Milici, and Bratunac, are you referring to the brigades from (10)Sekovici, Vlasenica, Milici, and Bratunac? • A.: He said units. He didn't use the word brigade. • Q.: So units from those -- • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: -- I take it units from those brigades would follow your penetration into Srebrenica, and after there had been penetration by your group and the Drina Wolves, then the brigade groups would follow; is that how I understand your testimony? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Who was the commander, to your knowledge, of the Drina Wolves? • A.: I just know that his nickname was Legenda, legend. (25)
• Q.: Who was the leader of the group of the 10th
• A.: Yes. • Q.: To your knowledge, did Legenda also (5)participate in the assault on Srebrenica? • A.: Yes. • Q.: To your knowledge, did he and Lieutenant Pelemis communicate in order to coordinate their efforts? (10) • A.: Yes, because at one point Pelemis, that is to say, Legenda was to our left -- on raised ground to our left. At one moment Pelemis told us that we should set fire to the first thing next to us. For the artillery, the tank, and heavy machine-guns, to shoot at the (15)surrounding hills and not at us, so that they could know the point where we had reached.
MR. HARMON: If I could have the assistance
of the usher, and if the usher could place on the ELMO
for the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit 4A, which is a
(20)map.
I'm not getting the image on my monitor. I
don't know if Your Honours are getting the image. It
appears that the ELMO is not working, and we're going
to need the ELMO throughout the testimony of
(25)Mr. Erdemovic. Perhaps we can have the assistance of
JUDGE RIAD: It's being taken care of. MR. HARMON: It is? Okay. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, could you proceed with your questioning in the meantime? MR. HARMON: I'm going to quickly start to get to the point where he's going to need some exhibits to illustrate his testimony. (10) • Q.: I'll ask you some questions. Mr. Erdemovic, let me ask you, you had been informed by Lieutenant Pelemis that your group and the Drina Wolves could anticipate heavy resistance. Did you, in fact, get heavy resistance? (15) • A.: No. • Q.: Can you describe to the Judges the manner in which your group divided? How many different groups of 10th Sabotage and Drina Wolves were there that advanced onto Srebrenica? (20) • A.: There were four groups in our detachment. The Drina Wolves, I don't know.
• Q.: All right. But your group, consisting of
Drina Wolves and 10th Sabotage Detachment soldiers,
divided into four groups and advanced in the direction
(25)of the town of Srebrenica; is that correct?
• Q.: Now, I had asked that Prosecutor's Exhibit 4A, which is a map, be placed on the ELMO because I wanted you to illustrate and inform the Judges the (5)direction in which you approached Srebrenica. Without that map, perhaps you can just describe, did you approach the town of Srebrenica from the south of the town? MR. HARMON: Oh, here it's working finally. (10)Now, if we could have that so the town of Srebrenica is shown on the ELMO. There we go. Move it up a little, please. That's fine right there. • Q.: Now, using the pointer, Mr. Erdemovic, could you illustrate to the Judges the direction which your (15)four groups took in the assault on Srebrenica? • A.: This direction here [indicates], towards the centre of town. MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, Mr. Erdemovic placed the pointer initially at the (20)juncture of the hairpin turn and moved it toward the top of the exhibit, in the direction of Srebrenica. • Q.: So you moved from the south of the town, toward the centre of town; is that correct? • A.: Yes. (25)
MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have
• Q.: Did you, in fact, Mr. Erdemovic, reach the centre of town? • A.: I don't know for sure whether it was the (5)centre of town, but that's what I assumed at the time. • Q.: Let me show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 4/4, and this is a photograph of part of the town of Srebrenica. Is this the location that you considered or thought was the centre of town? (10) • A.: Yes, here [indicates], that is the location. • Q.: Was there a mosque in the general vicinity where you have just pointed? • A.: Yes, here [indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, it (15)looks like a platform with a circle in the middle of it that is directly located in the centre of the picture. • Q.: Was that mosque that you observed on the morning of -- on the 11th of July, was it intact? Was it standing? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: When you entered the town, had you passed another mosque? • A.: Yes, at the beginning, when we moved off. It wasn't far from the beginning. (25)
• Q.: Was that mosque standing as well?
• Q.: Now, when you arrived in the location that you've pointed on Prosecutor's Exhibit 4/4, could you tell the Judges what happened? (5) • A.: When we arrived there, a civilian, wearing civilian clothing, surrendered and said, "I was never in the army." He was about 30 years old, tall; he wasn't fat, as far as I could see, he was thin. • Q.: To whom had he surrendered? (10) • A.: Because we were the first to descend into town, he surrendered to us. • Q.: Now, did it appear to you that -- other than that one individual that you saw, was the town abandoned? (15) • A.: Yes. But we called people to come out of their houses and to move in front of us, towards the stadium. People did come out, I don't know how many, but most of them were elderly people who found it difficult to walk. (20) • Q.: Now, let's continue focusing on this young man who had surrendered. What happened to him?
• A.: Later on, when we had already got there, the
units descended from the surrounding hills and one
particular group started to mistreat that young man, to
(25)beat him with rifles, with their fists, kick him and so
• Q.: Did, in fact -- first of all, can you (5)identify the man who was ordered to go slit the captive's throat? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What was his name? • A.: Zoran. Zoran, nicknamed Maljic, from (10)Vlasenica. I don't know his family name. • Q.: Did Zoran follow the order of Lieutenant Pelemis and slit this young man's throat? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you see that? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you use the pointer, please, again referring to Prosecutor's Exhibit 4/4, and point where in this picture the execution occurred? • A.: Here [indicates], in between these two (20)buildings here [indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating two buildings that are on the left-hand side of the exhibit, slightly above a curve in the road that appears in the centre of Prosecutor's Exhibit 4/4. (25)
• Q.: All right. That's fine. Thank you,
• A.: Yes. It remained there on the pavement. (5) MR. HARMON: Now, I'm going to ask the usher to please bring two exhibits: Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/17 and Prosecutor's Exhibit 147. • Q.: Do you know why Lieutenant Pelemis gave the order to Maljic to kill this man, particularly since he (10)had earlier given an order that no civilians were to be hurt? • A.: I really don't know why but I think it was because he was -- because he was fit for military service. That's what I think, but I don't know (15)exactly. I'm not aware of the actual reason. It looked a little strange, particularly in view of the fact that he had told us not to touch anybody, and after having said that he ordered us to slit this man's throat. (20) • Q.: All right. We're going to start with one exhibit. I'm still waiting for another exhibit. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, could you place that on the ELMO, please.
• Q.: Let me ask you, this photograph has two
(25)individuals marked, one with the number 1 and one with
• A.: Yes [indicates] (5) MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 147, the man with the number 2 on his shoulder. • Q.: Now, in that same picture there is a man with the number 1 marked on his shoulder. Do you see that (10)man, Mr. Erdemovic, and can you identify him for the Trial Chamber? • A.: Yes. That is the leader of the platoon from Bijeljina, Franc Kos [indicates] • Q.: All right. (15) MR. HARMON: Perhaps we can use my exhibit. I can use the next exhibit. • Q.: Let me show you what is Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/17, and I ask that that be placed on the ELMO, please. Now, Mr. Erdemovic, you've mentioned (20)Lieutenant Pelemis who gave the order to execute the young man in Srebrenica. Do you see him in this particular picture? Can you point him out, please? • A.: [Indicates]
MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the
(25)man on the right-hand side of that picture being
• Q.: Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic. Thank you, Mr. Usher, that's all I need. Now, after this young man was executed, (5)Mr. Erdemovic, were you given an order by Lieutenant Pelemis to do anything? • A.: Yes. He told us to go back. At the time I didn't know it was the southern part of the town of Srebrenica. Anyway, he told us to go back to where we (10)had come from and to provide security at the entrance of the town. He told this to me and other members of my unit. On the way back he told me to report to him when General Mladic reaches the town, General Mladic (15)and the others. • Q.: So at the point of town when you were in the centre, General Mladic, General Krstic, and General Zivanovic had not arrived in town yet; is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you follow Lieutenant Pelemis' order, and did you go to the entrance of the town in the south and did you set up a position? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Were you with other members of your unit?
• Q.: Now, I forgot to ask you one question, and that is this: Going back to the beginning of the assault, when your unit started the assault on (5)Srebrenica, approximately what time was that? • A.: I can't say now exactly. But when NATO bombs dropped, I think, two bombs, a man from our unit looked at his wristwatch and said that it was about ten past eleven, I think. We had already reached the first (10)mosque in town by that time. • Q.: Now, let me take you back to the location where you were at the southern entrance of the town, waiting for the arrival of General Mladic. Your instructions were to notify Lieutenant Pelemis that (15)General Mladic had passed your point. How were you to do that? How were you to communicate with Lieutenant Pelemis? • A.: With a radio link, a Motorola. We called it the 1000. (20) MR. HARMON: Now I'm going to play for Your Honours a film, which will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 148.
• Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, you've seen this film before.
I'm going to ask you a number of questions about it
(25)after you've had an opportunity to see this. This is a
MR. HARMON: So if we could dim the lights,
please, and if we could play Prosecutor's Exhibit 148.
(5)Unfortunately, Mr. President and Your Honours, I have
no transcript for this film. One will follow. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Mr. Dubuisson, perhaps the next time we have a film one should dim the (10)rights a little. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, the location where that film was taken, specifically where the Dutch UNPROFOR APC was on its side, was that at a location that was (15)outside of the town and away from the location where you had set up your checkpoint, pursuant to the order of Lieutenant Pelemis? • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have (20)Prosecutor's Exhibits 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, and 157 given to the usher, we're going to show those in order. They are new exhibits.
• Q.: In the meantime, Mr. Erdemovic, having seen
that film, did you see on that film a number of members
(25)of the 10th Sabotage Detachment present in the area
(5) • A.: Yes. Yes, I saw three members of the 10th Sabotage Battalion. • Q.: I'm going to show you a series of exhibits. We're going to start with Prosecutor's Exhibit 152. MR. HARMON: All of these exhibits, Judge (10)Riad and Judge Wald, are still images taken from the video we have just seen. They are not of the best quality but they are the best quality we could obtain. • Q.: Let me ask you, then, placing Prosecutor's Exhibit 152 on the ELMO, there are three individuals (15)with yellow dots, 1, 2, and 3. Did you, in looking at this film, have the ability to identify the individuals 1, 2, and 3 as being members of your unit? • A.: Yes. • Q.: So all three of these individuals are members (20)of the 10th Sabotage Detachment; is that correct? • A.: Yes, the 10th Sabotage Detachment, belonging to the Vlasenica platoon. • Q.: Let's start with number 1. Can you identify the man who is number 1? (25)
• A.: He was a liaison officer, a signals officer,
• Q.: Do you remember the name of the man who is number 2? (5) • A.: No. • Q.: But you know him to be a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: Yes. He worked in the signals section. • Q.: And number 3, can you identify him, please? (10) • A.: Yes. He was also in the Vlasenica platoon formally, but sometimes he drove our commander Milorad Pelemis. • Q.: What is his name? • A.: Cico. (15) MR. HARMON: We can turn to the next exhibit, Mr. Usher, that is Prosecutor's Exhibit 153. • Q.: The man with the yellow dot on his chest, is he a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, Mr. Erdemovic? (20) • A.: Yes. His name is Bujo, and on the previous picture he was marked with the number 1.
• Q.: Now, in some of these images you'll see
people with ribbons on their sides. Could you tell,
first of all, the Chamber, did members of the 10th
(25)Sabotage Detachment receive ribbons before they started
• A.: In the morning, when we were about to enter town, we would receive red ribbons which we attached on our left shoulder, some maybe on the right. I don't (5)know. But anyway we had to have those red ribbons so that we could be identified amongst the different units. • Q.: Let's turn to the next image, which is 154. There are two individuals on Prosecutor's Exhibit 154 (10)with a yellow dot on them, 1 and 2. Are both of those members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, even though one of these individuals has his back to us in this image, were you able to identify (15)that individual in the film? • A.: Yes. It is Cico, the man nicknamed Cico. • Q.: Were members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment normally issued blue helmets? • A.: No. (20) • Q.: Is that helmet that Cico is wearing a UN helmet? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Now, the individual marked number 1 on this
exhibit, a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, do
(25)you know his name?
• Q.: All right. Now we'll turn to the next image, (5)which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 155. There is a man with a yellow dot. MR. HARMON: If you could move that image over, please, Mr. Usher, so you can see the complete image of that man. If you could move it up, please. (10) • Q.: Now, the man with the yellow dot is wearing, it looks like a grey T-shirt and green camouflage pants. Is that the normal outfit for the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: No. (15) • Q.: What is the normal uniform worn by the members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: We wore a black uniform, the uniform worn by the army of Republika Srpska, and uniforms worn by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and by the Croatian Defence (20)Council.
• Q.: But in terms of this operation that took
place on the 11th of July, were members of the 10th
Sabotage Detachment dressed in black, and were they
also dressed in camouflage uniforms of the army of
(25)Republika Srpska?
• Q.: Now, let's focus -- let me focus your attention on the man in this photograph holding, it (5)looks like, a blue helmet and has a blue beret under his belt and has a yellow dot on his chest. Can you tell the Judges, first of all, is he a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, and can you identify him by name? (10) • A.: Yes. He is a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment. His name is Cico, or rather his nickname. I'm not sure whether it was his name or nickname, but that's how they called him. MR. HARMON: Let us turn now to the next (15)exhibit, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 156, another still image taken from the video we've just seen. And in the upper right-hand corner, Your Honours, is the accused. • Q.: Let me ask you to direct your attention to (20)the man in the middle with the yellow dot. Is that man a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What is his name?
• A.: His name is Zoran Stupar. He comes from the
(25)Vlasenica detachment.
• A.: I recognised on that day only General Mladic. I didn't know the other people, and I never met Mr. Krstic. The same applies to the person on (10)Mladic's right-hand side, I never met him, but I heard of the surname Pandurevic in the Drina unit. But I had never heard of Mr. Krstic, nor did I ever see him. • Q.: All right. MR. HARMON: I'm finished with this series of (15)exhibits, Mr. Usher. • Q.: Let's return to your testimony. Mr. Erdemovic, before I showed you this series of exhibits, you told us you'd gone up to a particular location and you were to inform Lieutenant Pelemis of (20)the arrival of General Mladic. Did they, in fact, did General Mladic and other vehicles pass your location on the 11th -- • A.: Yes.
• Q.: -- I'm sorry. On the 12th of July. I'm
(25)sorry. On the 11th of July.
• Q.: Approximately what time? • A.: I didn't have a watch so I don't know exactly, but when we reached the centre of town, then (5)after that -- after the raid, the bombing raid, maybe two or three hours later. • Q.: Now, on the film that we have just seen, there was -- part of the images were of three vehicles descending a road, one of which contained General (10)Mladic. • A.: Yes. • Q.: On the 11th of July, at your location did you see those vehicles and did those vehicles pass your location? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, were those vehicles then driving in the direction of the centre -- toward the centre of the town of Srebrenica? • A.: Yes. They went in that direction. (20) MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. President and Judge Wald, I'm not sure when you want to take a break, but I have only a few more minutes of this particular line of examination, and if we could --
JUDGE RIAD: Would 11.00 be all right with
(25)you, Mr. Harmon?
JUDGE RIAD: We will have a break for 20 minutes.
MR. HARMON: I'm going to show Your Honours,
(5)it would be my next exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 145.
There are going to be two clips in this exhibit. It's
a very short film; it lasts about 50 seconds with the
total of the two, so one has to watch fairly quickly.
If we could then dim the lights and if we could play
(10)Prosecutor's Exhibit 145. MR. HARMON: Now we'll show the second film. That should continue, please. JUDGE RIAD: How will we know what is being (15)said? MR. HARMON: I will submit a transcript. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
MR. HARMON: You have to go back on that
portion of the film, please. It may be just as easy to
(20)start and show the whole thing again. Both segments
last 51 seconds. MR. HARMON: I think that's fine, Judge Riad. As I said, it was a very short film. (25)
• Q.: I'm going to ask you now, Mr. Erdemovic.
• A.: Yes, between the position that I was at and (5)the very centre of town, or rather what I assumed was the centre of town. • Q.: Now, in that film that you saw, did you see members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: If I could show you, with the assistance of the usher, Prosecutor's Exhibit 158, please. MR. HARMON: If that could be placed on the ELMO. In this exhibit, Mr. Erdemovic, there are three individuals marked with yellow dots, 1, 2, and 3. The (15)accused is on the left-hand side of this image. Are the individuals marked with 1, 2, and 3 members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you identify them by name, starting (20)with individual 1 and working toward individual number 3?
• A.: Number 1 is Velimir Popovic from the
Bijeljina platoon. Number 2 is a man from the
Vlasenica platoon whom I didn't want to mention in my
(25)earlier testimony, and if it is not absolutely
• Q.: All right. Well, unless I have -- but you know him to be a member of the 10th Sabotage (5)Detachment; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: If the Defence ask you a question or if the Judges ask you to identify him, you will be required to identify him by name, Mr. Erdemovic. (10)Let's move on to the number 3, please. Who is the individual with the number 3 marked on his body? • A.: Stanko Savanovic from the Bijeljina platoon, a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment. • Q.: Now, I'd like to focus your attention if you (15)would, Mr. Erdemovic, just briefly, on the man with the number 2, and on the left-hand shoulder of that individual there is a ribbon. Is that the kind of ribbon that you said was placed on the shoulders of the individuals who participated in the assault on (20)Srebrenica? • A.: I can see there is a ribbon but I cannot see that it is red. But I assume that that is the ribbon.
• Q.: Below the ribbon there's a patch, an
insignia, on the man's left arm. Do you recognise that
(25)patch?
• Q.: Lastly, turning your attention to number 3, the individual marked with the number 3, he's wearing a (5)camouflage uniform, not a black uniform. Do you know why he was dressed -- • A.: Yes. • Q.: -- differently from your other colleagues in the 10th Sabotage Detachment? (10) • A.: I think in the morning, when we set off from Bijeljina, he was wearing that uniform and that is how he remained. Whether he had a reserve uniform in his bag or not, a black uniform or some other uniform such as that of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and of the (15)HVO. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, thank you very much. MR. HARMON: Judge Riad, I'm at a point where it would be convenient to break. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, how long do you (20)foresee your examination-in-chief? MR. HARMON: Approximately, two more hours.
JUDGE RIAD: Two more hours. We'll have a
break of 20 minutes now and then another break at
12.40. We have to adjourn at 14.10 today. So at 11.20
(25)we'll be back here. Thank you very much.
--- On resuming at 11.20 a.m. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, you can proceed. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour. If you (5)could move that exhibit down just a little bit, please, Mr. Usher. Down a little more. A little more, please. That's fine right there. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, just before we took the break, you had been testifying about Prosecutor's Exhibit 158, (10)and I wanted to ask you, are you familiar with this specific location where this image was taken? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, sometime after General Mladic drove by you, your position, with the other vehicles, did you go (15)down to this specific location that is found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 158? • A.: Yes. • Q.: At that particular location, when you went down there, did you find members of the 10th Sabotage (20)Detachment present? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Were they with a man who you did not know? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Before I get into what you observed and what
(25)you heard at that location, can you identify the
• A.: Under number 1, Velimir Popovic. Under number 2, an individual whom I did not wish to mention (5)in my previous testimony, I didn't want to mention his name and I don't wish to mention his name today either and involve him in everything. • Q.: Continue, please. • A.: Under number 3 is Stanko Savanovic. (10) • Q.: Did you see any other members of your detachment at that location when you went down there? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Who else? • A.: Opposite on the pavement, Koljevrat Dragan (15)was sitting down, and somebody else was with him. I don't remember exactly who. • Q.: Would you describe to the Judges what you saw when you went down to this position, what you heard.
• A.: When I got to this position, I saw Velimir
(20)Popovic, under number 1, the individual wearing number
2, and I didn't mention his name, and under number 3,
Stanko Savanovic. Opposite was Dragan Koljevrat, and
they were all members of the unit. With them there was
just one individual whom I didn't know.
(25)When I asked who the man was, Stanko
(5) THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat that word, please. • A.: -- he was drunk. And there was a jerrycan with some alcohol, and it was tied to the battery of the car. The man I did not know, I saw a hand launcher (10)which I had not seen before, of the type I hadn't seen, and he said, "Who's that?" And Savanovic said, "I found it in a house here." And I gave it to the General -- I asked why he had given it to the General and he said, "Because he's going to retire soon." (15) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Now, what were these men drinking? • A.: They were drinking, we call it in Bosnian, Slivovitz. THE INTERPRETER: Which is plum brandy. (20) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Out of what kind of container were they drinking from? • A.: They were drinking from a plastic jerrycan.
MR. HARMON: Now, I'd like to have
(25)Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4 placed on the ELMO.
(5) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Could you repeat, Mr. Erdemovic, what was said about Zivanovic? JUDGE RIAD: Stanko Zivanovic. • A.: He said he was the commander -- Zivanovic (10)said that he was the commander of the Drina Corps, and to that the individual under number 2 answered that -- he said, "He's not a commander but he's an alcoholic," and everybody laughed at that and I did too. MR. HARMON: (15) • Q.: What was the reason that was given to you why the rocket launcher was given to this man? • A.: Because he was going to be retired soon. • Q.: Now, I have placed on the ELMO Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4. Do you see the man Zivanovic, who was (20)drinking at the barricade with you and other members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, in this particular exhibit? • A.: [Indicates]
MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the
(25)second individual from the right-hand side of the
• Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, I'm going to turn your attention now to the 12th of July. Can you tell us (5)approximately what time you and members of your unit left Srebrenica and returned to Vlasenica? • A.: I think that it was around noon, that is to say, in the morning hours, between 10.00 and 12.00. That's when we left Srebrenica. (10) • Q.: Prior to leaving, where had you and members of your unit been billeted? • A.: Could you tell me what you mean by "where"? Do you mean where we spent the night? • Q.: Where you spent the night and where you spent (15)the morning hours of the 12th. • A.: We spent the night on the southern side, where I was located, where we provided security to the entrance into town. There were two houses there; one was a large house and the other one was a little (20)smaller. • Q.: Did you and did members of your group remain together until your departure on the morning of the 12th of July? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Now, at any time on the 12th of July,
• A.: No. MR. HARMON: If I could have the usher's (5)assistance once again, please, if we could use Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/E/1 which is an A3-sized map, and if that could be placed on the ELMO. • Q.: I'm going to ask you to look at this map, Mr. Erdemovic, and I'm going to ask you to use the (10)pointer and indicate for the Judges the location where you were and where you went and the route of your travel. And if we could move that up on the ELMO, please. That's fine right there. Could you use the pointer, Mr. Erdemovic, and (15)just follow the line along your route of travel when you returned to Vlasenica.
• A.: We went this away
[indicates], towards
Milici, roundabout over Rudnik, and that was an open
pit mine, I think here
[indicates], this part of the
(20)mine. I don't know the territory very well but I think
it was. And when we passed by, there was some
machinery there and this sort of mining equipment. So
from Srebrenica we went along this route
[indicates],
the roundabout route to Milici, and from Milici we
(25)continued on to Vlasenica.
• Q.: Now, did you return to your base in Bijeljina or did you remain in Vlasenica on the 12th of July? • A.: We remained in Vlasenica. • Q.: Why didn't you go to Bijeljina? (10) • A.: I don't know. • Q.: Now, I'm going to focus your attention, Mr. Erdemovic, on the time frame between the 13th of July and the 15th of July, and I don't want to go into great detail but I'd like you to tell the Judges in (15)summary form where you and where certain members of your unit went and why you went to that particular location.
• A.: On the 12th, when we returned to Vlasenica,
we were late because our truck -- there was something
(20)wrong with our truck and our unit was already there.
When we came to Vlasenica, at midnight on the 12th, we
learned that Pelemis had overturned, that is to say,
the commander of the unit Pelemis had overturned with
an APC not far from Vlasenica and our own base. Our
(25)own base was on the road leading from Vlasenica to
• Q.: Now, in relation to Vlasenica, where is Trebinje? • A.: Trebinje is situated south, southwards in (15)Herzegovina, in the vicinity of the town of Dubrovnik, which is in the Republic of Croatia. • Q.: All right. Mr. Erdemovic, we're now going to turn our attention to the 16th of July. On the 16th of July, did you and did members of your unit receive a (20)new assignment? • A.: Yes, we did. • Q.: From whom did you receive the assignment?
• A.: Brano Gojkovic came and told us, told me,
Franc Kos, and Zoran Goronja that we should prepare for
(25)our assignment. And when he asked him who said that we
• Q.: Now, how many people were -- MR. HARMON: We've lost the English (5)translation. THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English? MR. HARMON: I can hear the English. JUDGE RIAD: Judge Wald is bilingual. It's okay. (10) MR. HARMON: • Q.: How many members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment received an assignment on this morning of the 16th? • A.: Eight. (15) • Q.: Can you name the eight individuals who went on this particular assignment? • A.: Brano Gojkovic, Aleksandar Cvetkovic, who drove the vehicle that we were in, it was our unit's van; Golijan Vlastimir; Franc Kos; Zoran Goronja; (20)Stanko Savanovic; and myself. • Q.: You mentioned Marko Boskic. • A.: Sorry. Sorry. Yes, there was him too.
• Q.: Now, these individuals were some members of
the Bijeljina platoon and some of the Vlasenica
(25)platoon; is that correct?
• Q.: Could you name the individuals in this assignment who were part of the Vlasenica platoon? • A.: Brano Gojkovic, Aleksandar Cvetkovic, and (5)Vlastimir Golijan. • Q.: And the other members of this group were members of your platoon; correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Who was the leader of this group? (10) • A.: Brano organised everything for us to pack, take all the equipment necessary for the operation. He was the leader. • Q.: Now, was the purpose of the operation explained to you while you were in Vlasenica? (15) • A.: No. We were only told that we were going into an operation of some kind. • Q.: Where did you go from Vlasenica? • A.: From Vlasenica we went in the general direction of Zvornik, and we stopped in Zvornik. (20) MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's Exhibits 170, 171, and 172 placed on the ELMO.
• Q.: I'll wait until they are distributed to the
Judges before I ask you some questions about these.
Let's start, Mr. Erdemovic, with Prosecutor's
(25)Exhibit 170. You said you went to Zvornik. Can you
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Let me show you the next two exhibits. (5)Exhibit 171, is this another view of the location where you went? • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Lastly, 172, if that could be placed on the ELMO. (10) • Q.: Is that also the location where you and other members of your unit went in Zvornik? • A.: Yes, it was in the compound there. I don't know how many buildings like this were there, but I do know that that was the location. (15) MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if we could go back to 171, please. That's fine. • Q.: Now, Mr. Erdemovic, tell the Judges what happened when you arrived at this location.
• A.: When we arrived here, in front of this ramp
MR. HARMON: Now, the reception area, for the (5)record, the witness pointed to the structure on the far right, in the foreground. And when he said there were a lot of military policemen present, he was pointing to the smaller building in the background that's directly behind the gate that is open. (10) • Q.: Now, what did Brano Gojkovic do? Do you know what he did when he went into this building? Did you go with him, or did he go in there alone? • A.: No. We all stayed in the van. Just he and Cvetkovic went inside, and that was the driver of the (15)vehicle. • Q.: Why don't you tell us what happened at that location?
• A.: While we were sitting in the van, I don't
remember exactly whether I heard it over the radio or
(20)on a Motorola, but it was stated that the Muslims that
broke through towards Tuzla had confiscated a vehicle
with heavy machine-guns on it and that they had taken
several policemen from Doboj prisoners. I don't know
if they were civilian policemen that these Muslims had
(25)captured or whether they were military policemen.
• Q.: Now, did you see the insignia that said "Drina Corps Military Policemen" on the two policemen who came out with Brano Gojkovic? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And you said a Lieutenant Colonel came out as well. How do you know that the individual who came out with two military policemen from the Drina Corps was a Lieutenant Colonel? (15) • A.: He had insignia denoting officer rank on his chest. That individual had the insignia of officer rank, with the rank he actually was, on his chest, on the left-hand side. • Q.: And that rank, again, was Lieutenant Colonel; (20)is that correct? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: Now, Mr. Erdemovic, after these men came out, what happened?
• A.: Brano came. We had opened the door of the
(25)van, and you would open it sideways, with a sideways
(5) • Q.: Would Brano be escorting? The way I understood your testimony, the way it was interpreted to me, Brano would be escorting the Lieutenant Colonel. Was it the other way around; in fact, the Lieutenant Colonel would be escorting members of your (10)unit to a location? • A.: No. Our vehicle followed the Lieutenant Colonel and those two policemen who were in front of us, in the Opel Kadett car in front of us. • Q.: Where did you go? (15) • A.: We went in the direction of Zvornik, from Zvornik towards Bijeljina. And not long afterwards we turned off the road, the Zvornik-Bijeljina road, we turned left onto a macadamised road surface -- it wasn't an asphalt road -- and we arrived at a farm. (20) MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's Exhibit 24/7, which is a large panorama, placed on the ELMO.
• Q.: I'm going to show you this image,
Mr. Erdemovic, and ask you if the location that's shown
(25)on Prosecutor's Exhibit is the farm where you arrived.
(5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: So this is the location that's depicted in this panorama where you, the two Drina Corps military policemen, the Lieutenant Colonel, and your group arrived. By the way, did the Lieutenant Colonel have (10)any insignia on his uniform -- was he wearing a uniform, in the first place? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What kind of a uniform was he wearing? • A.: He had the uniform of the Army of Republika (15)Srpska. I don't remember about his pants, but I know that his shirt was a summer shirt. • Q.: Did he have any kind of insignia denoting what particular unit he was a member of? • A.: No. (20) • Q.: Now, after you arrived at this farm, what happened?
• A.: The Lieutenant Colonel and the two policemen
got out of the car. The Lieutenant Colonel went into
this building here
[indicates], where some men were
(25)there, that I didn't know who they were. I think it
• Q.: How long did he stay in there? • A.: Not long. Maybe two or three minutes. (5) • Q.: What happened then? • A.: After that they all went; all those people who were there moved away. Only the guard remained. • Q.: When you say "all those people," you mean all the people who were working at the farm? (10) • A.: Yes. They were on the farm. Whether they were all working there, I don't know. • Q.: How many people who had been present at the farm remained after these other people left? • A.: Just one. (15) • Q.: What happened then? • A.: After that, when they had all left, the Lieutenant Colonel was talking to Brano and I heard him say that buses would be coming. • Q.: Please continue. (20)
• A.: As soon as he said that, it wasn't long after
that, he left with these two policemen in a car. Then
Brano came back to us and told us that buses would come
with civilians from Srebrenica on them. And I and some
others started objecting, saying, "What are we going to
(25)do there?" And he said that we would have to execute
• Q.: Please continue.
• A.: When the first bus arrived, it parked here MR. HARMON: Which is, for the record, near a building that appears to have many openings in it and appears to be the building that is on the farthest (20)right of the panorama. So there's a green tractor-trailer on the left-hand side of that building, in between a larger building that's a farmhouse with a red tile roof.
• Q.: So that's the location where the buses
(25)parked. Would you continue with your testimony,
• A.: When the first bus arrived, Brano told us
that we had to deploy in a line from this garage here • Q.: You mean 100 metres away from the building that has the openings and the tree next to it? You had to deploy 100 metres past that building; is that correct? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Into an open field? • A.: Yes. • Q.: All right. Please continue, Mr. Erdemovic. • A.: Then I saw two policemen taking men out, men (15)who were in the bus, and these two men were probably the security for the transport of these men, and they reached Brano and Vlastimir Golijan. And the first group of people were brought behind this garage down there, maybe 100 metres away, maybe more, but roughly (20)to such a position. Then Brano told us to form a line. The men in front of us were ordered to turn their backs. When those men turned their backs to us, we shot at them. We were given orders to shoot. • Q.: Did Brano also shoot? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: All right. Continue, please. Actually, Mr. Erdemovic, let me ask you some questions at this point in time. Did the buses that you saw coming to the Branjevo Farm, did they have any kind of markings on them that you could identify? (10) • A.: There were markings of "Centrotrans Sarajevo" and "Drinatrans Zvornik," transportation companies. • Q.: After this first group of ten prisoners was executed, what happened, Mr. Erdemovic? • A.: Brano and Vlastimir Golijan, we again formed (15)a line to secure the path, and Brano and Golijan went for the next group of people. • Q.: What happened then? • A.: The second group was brought, and they were lined up immediately behind those first group. Our (20)backs were turned to the garage and we were moving in the direction of the garage. And that is how groups were brought in: Men again turned their backs to us and we shot that group of people who were in front of us. (25)
• Q.: And then I take it another group was brought
• A.: Yes. • Q.: And is that how the scene repeated itself throughout the day? (5) • A.: Yes, only I have to say that the last group of the first bus, or at the beginning of the second bus, I know that Aleksandar Cvetkovic and Brano had the idea to speed up the execution so that we could use a machine-gun, an M-84. (10) • Q.: What happened with that M-84 machine-gun? • A.: Then Aleksandar Cvetkovic took this machine-gun, positioned it, and started shooting at the group of ten. However, because the ammunition was what it was, the people were just mutilated and wounded, and (15)they begged to be finished off. • Q.: Please continue. • A.: Then a hot argument ensued between me, Brano, Slovenac, Goronja, and Aco, because some people could no longer listen to those men pleading to be killed, (20)and we were saying if they have to die, why couldn't they die decently, peacefully, rather than being mutilated and hit and insulted and hurt? And then they put away that M-84 machine-gun.
• Q.: Now, Mr. Erdemovic, were any of these men who
(25)were brought down to be executed blindfolded, did they
• A.: I can only remember that in the first bus they were blindfolded and their hands were tied, as far as I can remember. (5) • Q.: Now, the policemen who escorted these buses of prisoners who were being brought to the execution field, could you see any insignia on those policemen? • A.: Yes. They were the same insignia as were worn by the previous two policemen who came with that (10)Lieutenant Colonel. • Q.: What did that insignia say? • A.: The military police of the Drina Corps. • Q.: Now, could you describe to the Judges the role that these Drina Corps military policemen had in (15)the execution process that was taking place on the 16th of July? • A.: In the course of the transport, they probably guarded the prisoners and escorted them in buses. When they reached the farm, they took out ten men at a (20)time.
• Q.: So they segregated the groups of ten that
were passed on to members of your unit, and then those
men were walked to the execution field and murdered,
and then another ten individuals had been selected by
(25)the members of the Drina Corps military police, taken
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, approximately how many buses arrived at (5)the Branjevo farm on the 16th of July, as best as you can recall? • A.: As far as I can recall, because those were terrible moments for me, I think between 15 and 20. • Q.: What time did the executions start in the (10)morning of the 16th of July? • A.: I think around 10.00. • Q.: What time did they end on that same day? • A.: 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon. • Q.: Now, how many people do you estimate, (15)Mr. Erdemovic, were executed at the Branjevo farm on the 16th of July? • A.: I think about 1.000, 1.200. • Q.: Your unit, the members of the 10th -- all of the members who went on this assignment, including (20)Brano, participated in those executions, did they not? • A.: Yes. • Q.: At some point in time, Mr. Erdemovic, did you have a conversation with one of the victims and attempt to spare him from the fate that awaited him? (25)
• A.: Yes. That man, as soon as he got off the
(20) • Q.: Was that man executed? • A.: Yes. I think Vlastimir Golijan killed him. • Q.: Now, Mr. Erdemovic, did you see Brano Gojkovic order the bus drivers, who were transporting these prisoners to the Branjevo farm, to do anything? (25)
• A.: Yes. After the second bus, or the first -- I
• Q.: Shot at him or killed him? • A.: He shot at him. Now, whether that man died straight away, I don't know, I can't remember, I can't (10)say. But he did shoot at him. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, did the 10th Sabotage Unit members who had gone to this farm kill all the 1.000 to 1.200 people, or did another military unit arrive at the Branjevo farm arrive at some point during the day (15)and participate in the executions?
• A.: All the members of the 10th Sabotage
Detachment did not participate in these executions.
About -- between 1.00 and 2.00, members came from
Bratunac, so that I heard when somebody said that
(20)people from Bratunac had come to assist. And they took
over the killing of those people, in the same way as
our group had done, only they recognised some of those
people and they took it out on them.
I think that one of the men from Bratunac was
(25)a native of Srebrenica and he recognised some. I
• Q.: Before we explore that, I want to correct a (5)part of the record that is in the transcript. The record says at 12:09:01, "All of the members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment did not participate in these executions." I understood your testimony to be that all of the members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment did (10)participate in executions but didn't participate in killing all of the people who had been executed on the 16th of July. Is that correct? • A.: Yes, yes. • Q.: Okay. Now -- (15) JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, just a second. He said, "The people who came from Bratunac." He said "people". Were there also military people or -- MR. HARMON: I was going to get to that, Judge Riad, and I'll explore that. (20) • Q.: I'd like to explore now the identities of these people who came from Bratunac. First of all, Mr. Erdemovic, how were they dressed?
• A.: They were, as far as I could remember, all
dressed in uniforms of the army of Republika Srpska.
(25)Only one was wearing a uniform that I would see and
• Q.: Who was it who said, "The men from Bratunac have arrived"? (5) • A.: I think it was Brano, but I'm not certain. I think possibly it was him, because I saw him first shake hands with them. Some people recognised each other. Aleksandar Cvetkovic was there, and I saw that they knew each other from before. (10) • Q.: Now, did it appear to you that the men from Bratunac knew some of the people who had been brought from Srebrenica? • A.: Yes. • Q.: In fact, you recounted at least one (15)conversation between one of the men who was from Bratunac and the butcher from Srebrenica; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you conclude, based on your observations (20)of the interactions between the men from Bratunac and the victims from Srebrenica, that these were local people who knew each other? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Can you describe to the Judges how the people
(25)from Bratunac acted toward the victims from
• A.: They beat them from steel rods. They kicked them, they hit them. They forced them to pray in the Muslim way. They simply took it out on them. They (5)humiliated them. • Q.: In addition to the conversation between the man who knew the butcher, did it appear that other members of the Bratunac group knew other victims who were from Srebrenica? (10) • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Now, I'm going to ask that the three next exhibits, Prosecutor's Exhibit 173, 174, and 175, be shown to the witness, placed on the ELMO, and distributed to the Judges, please. (15) • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, can you identify, in this image that was taken in Potocari, one of the individuals from Bratunac who was present and participated in the execution at the Branjevo Military Farm on the 16th of July, 1995? (20) • A.: This one here [indicates] • Q.: Can you point to his face, please. • A.: [Witness complies]
MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, in
Prosecutor's Exhibit 173, the man who is on the far
(25)left-hand side of the image. He has a bandana on his
• Q.: Could you turn to the next exhibit, please, 174? Do you see one of the men who participated in the executions at the Branjevo Military Farm on the 16th of (5)July in this particular image? • A.: Yes. This one [indicates] • Q.: Is that the man who appeared in the previous image? • A.: Yes. (10) MR. HARMON: Indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 174, a man on the far right-hand side of the image, wearing a camouflage uniform and wearing a bandana on his head. • Q.: Lastly, let me show you Prosecutor's Exhibit (15)175. Do you recognise the man in Prosecutor's 175? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Who is that man? • A.: He's the same man who was at the farm that day, only in this case he's in civilian clothes. But I (20)remember him well. • Q.: He's the same man who was wearing a bandana in Prosecutor's Exhibit 173 and 174; is that correct? • A.: Yes.
MR. HARMON: I'm finished with those
(25)exhibits, Mr. Usher. Thank you.
(5) • A.: I can't say regarding everyone, but I know that four men did not continue to participate. • Q.: Who were those four men who did not continue to participate? • A.: Myself, Franc Kos, Marko Boskic, and Zoran (10)Goronja. MR. HARMON: Could I please have Prosecutor's Exhibit 158 placed back on the ELMO. • Q.: Did one member of your unit, Mr. Erdemovic, brag to you how many men he had killed at the Branjevo (15)Military Farm? • A.: Yes. It is Stanko Savanovic, number 3. He said that he had killed between 200 and 300 men, that he had counted them. • Q.: So the man who is marked number 3 in that (20)exhibit was a participant in the execution squad with you, and he told you that he had killed between 250 and 300 of these individuals; correct? • A.: Yes.
MR. HARMON: All right. Thank you very
(25)much. I'm finished with that exhibit.
• A.: As far as I could tell, between 17 and 60 or 70. (5) • Q.: How were these people dressed? • A.: They were all in civilian clothes, except for one who had camouflage pants. • Q.: Did any of these people offer resistance of any kind to the execution squad or to the Branjevo -- (10)I'm sorry, the Bratunac Brigade soldiers who were present? • A.: Yes, one man. I think when they had just arrived, he started running, trying to escape, and they caught up with him and killed him. (15) • Q.: Now, were Drina Corps military policemen escorting each and every bus that came to the execution fields? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, while the last bus was coming to the (20)execution field, did anyone else appear with that bus at or about the time of the arrival of that bus? • A.: Could you repeat the question once again, please?
• Q.: I'll ask it a different way. Did the
(25)Lieutenant Colonel who had escorted you to the Branjevo
• A.: Yes. He came at the end, when these men from Bratunac were emptying the last bus. • Q.: And he was present when these executions -- (5)the last bus of people were being executed? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Was he accompanied by anybody else when he came to the farm? • A.: There were those men who were there before, (10)those two military policemen who were there when we headed for the Branjevo farm. • Q.: Tell the Judges what happened when he arrived at the Branjevo Military Farm.
• A.: We were sitting down against the wall of the
(15)building on the farm that I showed you on the picture.
Then these men from Bratunac were still taking people
and killing them. Brano, Savanovic, and Cvetkovic were
close to the bus, I think. The Lieutenant Colonel went
towards them, over there. We were talking, and just
(20)then somebody asked the guard where the people would be
buried, and he said they would be buried there, and he
also said that people had been buried there before.
Now, I don't know whether he meant before the Second
World War, before this war, what exactly he meant.
(25)Not long after that, this Lieutenant Colonel
(15) • Q.: Coming from which direction? • A.: From the direction -- well, you see, the farm, when you're coming from Zvornik, you come across that farm, the Zvornik-Bijeljina road. You first reach the farm and then this place on the road to Bijeljina. (20) • Q.: Let me ask you: Did all of the men who had participated in the killings at the Branjevo farm leave the farm to go to another location where people had to be killed?
• A.: The people from Bratunac went straight away.
(25)But Brano told us in the car that that Lieutenant
• Q.: Before we get into the next set of killings, I want to just ask you: How many men from Bratunac (5)were there who had arrived to participate in the killings and then went to another location to continue with the killings? • A.: Perhaps ten, perhaps more, perhaps one or two men less. I don't really know. (10) • Q.: Before we leave the Branjevo farm, I'd like you to take a look at another exhibit, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 24/2, which is an aerial image that has markings on it. I ask that that be placed on the ELMO. (15)Mr. Erdemovic, you've seen this picture in my office before? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, this is an aerial image of the Branjevo farm; is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Does this show the location where the people who had been executed fell? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Does this image accurately reflect the
(25)location of the buildings and the bodies from the
• A.: Yes. I remember this building [indicates] and this other one [indicates] I don't remember this one so well [indicates] but I do remember this one and (5)the one over here [indicates] I recognise that that is the farm and the place where the people were taken from the buses. • Q.: Now, are there other locations where people were executed beside the area with the large oval that (10)says "Bodies"? • A.: Yes. I think these people from Bratunac, those first people were taken off here [indicates], this area here [indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating for the record the (15)area to the left of the word that says "Bodies," in between -- slightly above the word that says "Wheel." In that area, there were additional bodies. All right.
• Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, thank you. I'm finished with
(20)this particular exhibit.
Let's turn our attention back now,
Mr. Erdemovic, to the departure of the people from --
the soldiers from Bratunac who left and went to a
particular location. As you were leaving, you said you
(25)could hear shooting; is that correct?
• Q.: How soon after the departure of the soldiers from Bratunac was it that you left the Branjevo farm? • A.: Perhaps some 10 minutes later, perhaps 15, (5)thereabouts; 10 to 15 minutes. • Q.: Where did you go? • A.: We went in the direction of Pilica, the place of Pilica, which is where that cafe was located, the coffee bar where we were to have a meeting with that (10)Lieutenant Colonel that Brano told us about. • Q.: Describe the scene to the Judges as you entered this particular village where a cafe was located. • A.: When you come from the Zvornik direction, the (15)cafe is on the right-hand side. It is the Zvornik-Bijeljina road. The cafe is on the right-hand side, at a place called Pilica, and I think that is at the entrance to Pilica itself. Opposite the cafe was this other place, and when we came in front of the (20)cafe, in front of this building on the other side, we saw people lying down on the ground, lying around on the ground, and you could hear shots. • Q.: Could you hear detonations from grenades as well? (25)
• A.: Afterwards, when we'd already entered the
• Q.: I'm going to show you a number of exhibits and ask you to identify the various locations that you are going to be testifying about. If we could start (5)first of all with Prosecutor's Exhibit 25/15, and then we will turn to 25/2, 25/5, and 25/7. While we're getting those exhibits, Mr. Erdemovic, how far apart was the cafe from the location where shooting was taking place? (10) • A.: I would say about 70 to 100 metres. I can't say exactly. • Q.: We're going to start by placing on the ELMO, Mr. Erdemovic, Prosecutor's Exhibit 25/15. You mentioned the cafe. Does this picture show the cafe (15)where you and other members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment went after you left the Branjevo Military Farm? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Is this the cafe -- and did you remain in (20)this cafe while killings took place at a location across the road? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you remain in that cafe until the killings that took place across the road finished? (25)
• A.: Yes.
(5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you point out to the Judges first the cafe, where you and other members of your squad were sitting, and then point out the location where the killings were taking place. (10) • A.: [Indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating, first of all, the building that has the sign "Cafe" above it. • Q.: Where did the killings take place? • A.: [Indicates] (15) MR. HARMON: Indicating the cultural hall to the bottom part of the image. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, let's take a look at the next picture, please, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 25/5. What is this building? (20) • A.: This reminds me of that hall in Pilica. • Q.: All right. Is this the location -- what happened at this location, Mr. Erdemovic?
• A.: Over here
[indicates], I can't show you
exactly, but somewhere here to the right
[indicates],
(25)when we arrived, upon our arrival in front of the cafe
• Q.: All right. Let's turn to our last exhibit, (5)which is 25/7. MR. HARMON: I'm sorry. There should be one more exhibit. We should have 25/2, 25/5, and 25/7. There should be three exhibits. Mr. Usher, what is the number on that exhibit, please? (10) THE USHER: 25/5. MR. HARMON: If we could turn to 25/5, then. • Q.: I want to lastly show you this picture. Can you show to the Judges, Mr. Erdemovic, first of all, the location where the killings took place? (15) • A.: This building here [indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the building that's above the two buses that appear in the middle of the picture. • Q.: And where is the cafe located where you and (20)other members of your unit were sitting when the killings were taking place? • A.: Here [indicates]
MR. HARMON: Indicating the building in the
lower right-hand corner. You can only see the roof
(25)portion of that building.
• A.: As far as I remember, that's where the (5)checkpoint of the civilian police was located. • Q.: Now we've set the scene for the rest of your testimony, Mr. Erdemovic. Would you tell the Judges, then, what happened when you got to the cafe, who was there, what you saw, and what you heard. (10) • A.: When we arrived at the cafe -- when you go in, when you enter the cafe, at the entrance, on the right-hand side, I called this -- these were little separate places to sit, and on the right-hand side, this Lieutenant Colonel was sitting down with another (15)military policeman. I didn't see the other one. • Q.: Please continue.
• A.: We all went inside. I and Franc Kos sat
right next to -- sat at the table on the left-hand
side, by the door. All the others went off, Brano,
(20)Vlastimir, Aco, Boskic, Goronja. And the Lieutenant
Colonel said, that is, he called the man working there
and told him to bring drinks. I and Slovenac, as far
as I remember, had some coffee, the others were, I
think, drinking brandy, and they were talking. I
(25)didn't listen to what they were saying. You could
• Q.: "That building" being the building across the street. (5) • A.: Yes, that's right. • Q.: How long did you remain there -- I'm sorry. How long while you were there did you continue to hear shots and detonations coming from the building across the street? (10) • A.: Not long. Between 15 and 20 minutes, perhaps. • Q.: All right. Now, after 15 or 20 minutes, what happened, Mr. Erdemovic? • A.: First of all, that man came, the one that I (15)have already showed you with the bandana on his head, from Bratunac, he came inside and said that everything was over, and then the others came in as well. And they talked to the Lieutenant Colonel for a while, and then we said that we wanted to go home. And not long (20)after that we got up, got into our vehicle, and went off. And I remember that the Lieutenant Colonel just said, "Those who survived survived."
• Q.: I take it at this second execution site,
which was in this town, no members of the 10th Sabotage
(25)Detachment participated in those killings; is that
• A.: No. That's correct. • Q.: The killings that took place at this particular location were committed, as far as you could (5)see, by the men from Bratunac, who were dressed in the military uniform of the army of the Republika Srpska; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, Mr. Erdemovic, you said you wanted to -- (10)you asked to leave. Did you, in fact, then leave the location of the cafe shortly after the killings that had taken place across the street occurred? • A.: Yes. We went in the direction of Vlasenica. • Q.: Did all of the members of the execution squad (15)from the 10th Sabotage Detachment return to Vlasenica? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Do you know where the men from Bratunac went? • A.: No. • Q.: Do you know where the Lieutenant Colonel (20)went? • A.: No. • Q.: Do you know where the military policemen from the Drina Corps went? • A.: No. (25)
• Q.: All right. Now, after your return to
• A.: Yes. When we returned, not much time went by, they said a bus would come to take us to Bijeljina, (5)and that's what in fact happened. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, after these killings took place, you remained with members of your unit, first of all, in Vlasenica briefly, and then in Bijeljina, and you had an opportunity to converse with other members (10)of your unit. Is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, did you hear at any time, in your conversations with your colleagues, that members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment had participated in the (15)separation of men from women and children in Potocari that occurred on the 11th and the 12th of July? Did you ever hear anything from any of your colleagues that they had participated in that? • A.: No. (20)
• Q.: Did you ever hear, Mr. Erdemovic, in talking
to your colleagues, that members of the 10th Sabotage
Detachment had participated in the detention of men in
Potocari, in Bratunac at various locations, at the Luke
school near Kladanj, in the Petkovci school, or the
(25)Grbavci school, or the Pilica school, or the Rocevic
• A.: No. • Q.: So you never heard any of your colleagues talking about that. (5) • A.: No. But some of these places, I heard of them for the first time later on, when your investigators questioned me. • Q.: All right. Now, since your group was a reconnaissance group, Mr. Erdemovic, did you ever hear (10)that members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment reconnoitred to find suitable detention facilities where Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica were detained prior to being executed? • A.: As far as I know, no. (15) • Q.: Did you ever hear that members of your unit participated in being guards or providing security for Bosnian Muslim prisoners who were detained at various sites prior to their execution? • A.: No. (20) • Q.: Did you ever hear that members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment participated in mass executions at the Kravica warehouse, at Orahovac, at a dam, or at a location Kozluk? • A.: No. (25)
• Q.: Did you ever hear, Mr. Erdemovic, that
• A.: No. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, to your knowledge, I take it that your understanding was that your unit participated in the executions only at the Branjevo Military Farm; (10)is that correct? • A.: Yes. And I heard later on, when I left hospital, because after Srebrenica I was wounded and I was in a hospital in Bijeljina, first of all, and then at the military academy hospital, I heard rumours going (15)around that individuals had been in the Nova Kasaba. • Q.: All right. But you didn't hear any rumours about those people participating in executions at Nova Kasaba, did you? • A.: No. (20) • Q.: All right. Mr. Erdemovic, thank you very much. MR. HARMON: Judge Riad, Judge Wald, I've concluded my direct examination of Mr. Erdemovic. I have no further questions. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: You said you had two hours. So
MR. HARMON: I have concluded. JUDGE RIAD: I would like very much to express my admiration. (5)We will adjourn for 20 minutes and resume at 1.00. Mr. Erdemovic, you know from your experience that now the Defence counsel will ask you some questions. I would like to seize this opportunity to (10)tell you that the Bench appreciates very much you're coming to testify. We are adjourned until 1.00. --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Visnjic or Mr. Petrusic. THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Please proceed. Good afternoon. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good (20)afternoon, Your Honours, my learned colleagues of the Prosecution. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:
• Q.: Good afternoon, Mr. Erdemovic.
Mr. Erdemovic, can we say that you became a
(25)member of the Republika Srpska army in Dvorovi?
• Q.: Did you then sign an agreement with the army of Republika Srpska as to your membership in the army? • A.: Not then but afterwards. Well, when Pelemis (5)joined in October 1994. • Q.: Can you tell us something about that contract or agreement. • A.: I read it out, I had it in my hands, and it was between me, as a member of the 10th Sabotage (10)Detachment, and the Main Staff, as far as I know, of the army of Republika Srpska. • Q.: So that contract was between you and the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, to make matters quite clear. (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: So we can say that you were a professional soldier of the army of Republika Srpska, were you not? • A.: Yes, by signing that contract or agreement, you could put it that way, yes. (20) • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, I should now like to ask you some technical questions. We're speaking the same language, you and I, so please make pauses between the question and the answer. • A.: Yes, I will do so. I apologise. (25)
• Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, do you know whether the other
(5) • A.: I'm not aware of that. I don't know. • Q.: Can we say that the command structure of your unit with respect to superiority was made up of the following hierarchy: We had Colonel Salapura as the top man, top officer; then we had Major Pecanac; then (10)we had First Lieutenant Pelemis and Kremenovic, whom I think was in charge of the rear for your detachment; followed by two platoon leaders, Lule of the Vlasenicki and Franc Kos of the Bijeljina platoon. • A.: That is all correct. But Kremenovic was not (15)in charge of the rear, he was Pelemis' deputy. • Q.: Can we then say that at the top of that pyramid, according to this chain of command, was the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska? • A.: Yes, the intelligence staff of the army of (20)Republika Srpska. • Q.: And by the same token, the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army. • A.: Yes, that's right.
• Q.: In a military hierarchy of this type, in the
(25)command sense or in actual, practical terms, or in any
• A.: Yes, that is correct. Yes, it is correct. • Q.: When you went on assignment to the zones of (5)responsibility of other corps, in addition to information at the command level saying that you would be passing through, you continued to be under your command; that is, your platoon was under the command of Mr. Pelemis, was it not? (10)I can't see an answer on the transcript. • A.: The answer is yes. • Q.: So nobody else was able to issue orders to you except for your command. • A.: Yes, that is correct. (15) • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, can it be said that you didn't have your own area of responsibility, in fact? • A.: Yes. • Q.: When other units joined you in your operations, in the particular case of the mine near (20)Srebrenica, did the members of that unit come under your command, the same command as you? • A.: They were not directly under our command, but they were attached to us just to show us the way.
• Q.: So their command could not issue orders to
(25)you.
• Q.: And could your command issue orders to them? • A.: Well, if they were attached to us for that occasion, then probably our commander could issue (5)orders to those men who were attached to us. • Q.: This relationship, at what level did it function? At the level of Pelemis command or a higher level? • A.: I only know that if Pelemis was with us, then (10)he could command those men. If it was someone else, then he would be the one. Now whether there was a link between Salapura, Major Pecanac, and the brigade command, of the people who were attached to us, I really don't know. (15) • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, I think you said, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that on the 10th of July you headed from Bijeljina, towards Zvornik, towards Bratunac. • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: And you arrived in Bratunac. • A.: Yes. • Q.: How many members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment were boarded onto, I suppose, some trucks or buses in Bijeljina? (25)
• A.: Between 15 and 20, into a small bus. I don't
• Q.: You reached Bratunac on the 10th. What time of day was it, roughly? (5) • A.: Well, maybe 2.00 in the afternoon. I don't know exactly. • Q.: Could you please describe your movements from Bratunac to the position in Srebrenica? • A.: I don't know the area well but I know that we (10)went a roundabout away through woods and over hills. I know it was a difficult route for us to take. Our group and the group from Vlasenica were led by two three-barrelled guns belonging to the former JNA. • Q.: Was there a total of 15 of you, including you (15)and the group from Vlasenica, or was the Vlasenica group independent? • A.: No. You asked me, "How many of you started from Bijeljina" and I said between 15 and 20. But when we got to Bratunac, shortly after that these men from (20)Vlasenica came. • Q.: How many of them arrived?
• A.: I don't know. I think there was a total --
when we left on the 11th
[sic] for Srebrenica, there
must have been about 30 of us, but I don't know
(25)exactly.
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Both platoons. • A.: Yes. • Q.: In the morning, on the 11th of July, who gave you orders to go to Srebrenica, into the town itself? • A.: Milorad Pelemis, the commander of our unit. (10) • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, were there with you members of the regular units of the Drina Corps? I mean members of the Milici, Bratunac, Zvornik, and Vlasenica Brigades. • A.: There were about 15 men from the Drina Wolves (15)which, as far as I know, were billeted in Zvornik, and they came under Pelemis' command because he went into town with us then. They were attached to our unit. • Q.: You were divided into several groups. Can you tell us how many? (20) • A.: As far as I know, our unit was divided into four groups. • Q.: Were members of the Drina Wolves with you in those groups?
• A.: No, they were not mixed up with us in those
(25)groups.
• A.: Well, judging by the way Pelemis spoke to us, I gathered that Pelemis could give them an order. (5) • Q.: Those members of the Drina Wolves, did they have their leader? • A.: Yes. • Q.: At that location? • A.: The leader of the group was certainly with (10)them, the Drina Wolves. • Q.: Do you know who that leader was? • A.: No. • Q.: If I understand you correctly, it's not Legenda. (15) • A.: No, Legenda was not there. • Q.: In your examination-in-chief you mentioned the order that you should guide the population towards the football stadium. • A.: Yes. Pelemis told us -- people asked, "What (20)if we come across civilians?" He said that we should direct the civilians to go in front of us towards the football stadium. • Q.: So you didn't come across civilians, rather, your group didn't. (25)
• A.: Yes, we came across a couple. Throughout
• Q.: Did you see them go to the football pitch? (5) • A.: They went in front of us so I didn't see that. • Q.: Do you know that that football pitch, viewed from Srebrenica, is in the direction of Potocari? • A.: At the time I didn't know. I do now. (10) • Q.: So you know the location where it is now. • A.: Yes, today I know. • Q.: Could you conclude today that they went in the direction of Potocari? • A.: When I reached the centre of town, what I (15)thought was the centre of town, I think they took the road towards Potocari. • Q.: After a certain amount of time, after the bombing raids by NATO forces, you were given orders to withdraw to one of the checkpoints at the entrance to (20)Srebrenica, on the southern side.
• A.: When we reached this second mosque, upon
entering Srebrenica, Pelemis said that everything was
finished and that members of various units were coming
down from the hills -- I don't know exactly which units
(25)they belonged to, but they were coming down -- and
• Q.: The road that you took on the way back, is (10)that the road that General Mladic came along? • A.: Three vehicles came. First was a Mercedes belonging to the former JNA. Mladic was sitting in front, and I didn't recognise the other persons. • Q.: From the position where you were at that (15)checkpoint, could you see how many troops had entered the town? • A.: I don't know how many, I can't say now, but in my estimate there must have been 500 or 700 soldiers maybe. (20) • Q.: And they passed by your checkpoint?
• A.: No. No, they were coming down from the
surrounding hills. And before the vehicles that passed
were two APCs, a self-propelled and a Praga, as far as
I can remember, but not many troops passed that
(25)checkpoint.
• A.: Not at the checkpoint itself. It was not a checkpoint. We were protecting the entrance to the town. I learnt here that this was the southern side of (5)Srebrenica. Yes, we spent the night there in houses, a big house, I remember, and a smaller house. • Q.: The order for movement the next day, the 12th of July, between 10.00 and 12.00, came from Pelemis. • A.: No. A man who sometimes drove Pelemis, under (10)the name of Zoran Stupar, came and said that that Pelemis had ordered us to move towards Vlasenica. We were already supposed to go and search this mine, one at the entrance to Srebrenica and the other coming out at the Bratunac side, and we were informed that we (15)should go to Vlasenica. • Q.: So Stupar is conveying Pelemis' orders to you. • A.: Yes. • Q.: And Pelemis previously had issued orders that (20)you should search the mine.
• A.: When we got down into town, after a few
minutes a man came, I think his name was Garic, from
Vlasenica, and the mine was in his area. He asked
Pelemis, as we knew the mine, that we should work
(25)there. We should have done that the next day but we
• Q.: Let us go back for a moment to the 11th again. Your comrade from the detachment, I think the young man whose funeral you attended later, when he (5)described General Zivanovic as a drunk, when he said, "He's not a General, he's not a commander, he's a drunk," did he mean "pijano," meaning drunk, did he mean a person who is frequently drunk? Is that what the term implies? (10) • A.: That is what it sounded like to me, and since I saw him drinking brandy from the jerrycan, that is how we describe a man who drinks. • Q.: So he wanted to describe him as a person prone to alcohol, and thereby that he shouldn't have (15)the role he has as a commander. • A.: Yes, that's what it sounded like. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, how many members of the 10th Detachment left Srebrenica and went towards Vlasenica? • A.: As far as I can remember, all the members of (20)the unit, on the 12th, left. • Q.: Therefore, some 30 of you.
• A.: Yes. May I just say, we didn't see Pelemis
when we left Srebrenica, we met him on the way
somewhere, towards the south, where there was this
(25)former UNPROFOR checkpoint, south of Srebrenica. We
• Q.: So your group went south of Srebrenica, (5)Zeleni Jadar, that is, the mine, Milici, and then the road goes on to Vlasenica. • A.: I don't know that area too well, but when we passed I could see that there were open cast mines. So possibly those were mines. (10) • Q.: But regardless of your knowledge or not of the area, there's no doubt that you went to the south of Srebrenica, in the direction of Vlasenica. On that road, did you see members of the Drina Corps? (15) • A.: No. • Q.: On the 16th of July you left Vlasenica via Zvornik, towards the farm, and then you saw a certain number of members of the police. • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Do you know under whose command they were? • A.: I just saw the emblem. It said, "The Military Police of the Drina Corps." I don't know exactly under whose command they were. The name of the person or his rank, I don't know. (25)
• Q.: Do you know how units of the Drina Corps were
• A.: No. • Q.: Do you know that at the time another (5)operation was under way? • A.: I heard that over the radio, that the Muslims, who were going from Srebrenica, were breaking through towards Tuzla and that they had managed to capture a Praga or a self-propelled gun, and several (10)policemen from Doboj. I don't know whether they were civilian police or military police, or whether they were really from Doboj. But that is what I heard. • Q.: Do you know, and had you heard that on the 16th of July there were other combat operations in (15)Zepa? • A.: No. • Q.: You came across a Lieutenant Colonel in Zvornik? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Could you describe him, please.
• A.: He was tall, I would say about a metre and 90
centimetres, heavily built. He had a rather big head.
He had -- I don't know how to put it. It was very
sunny that day, very hot, and he had a cap. As far as
(25)I could remember, he had greying hair and a receding
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I beg your pardon, Mr. President. • Q.: Excuse me, Mr. Erdemovic. Are you sure, (5)Mr. Erdemovic, that he had the rank of Lieutenant Colonel? • A.: Yes. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, with your permission, I should like to show 28/15, (10)Prosecution Exhibit, on the ELMO for identification purposes. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, the officer whose head has a circle around it in red marker, is that the person you saw? (15) • A.: No. • Q.: Thank you. Members of this unit, or rather the soldiers who came to the farm from Bratunac, as you said, did they tell you that they were from Bratunac, or did they specify the unit they belonged to? (20) • A.: I heard this when Brano, I think it was Brano who said, "Men from Bratunac are coming to assist." I don't know exactly whether they were from Bratunac, nor did I talk to them.
• Q.: So it was not stated that members of such and
(25)such a brigade were coming, but simply men from
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, when all this was over in Branjevo and Pilica, you returned to Vlasenica. (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: So eight of you went to Branjevo and Pilica and eight of you returned. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Where were the members of the 10th Sabotage (10)Detachment from the 12th until the 16th, when you returned? • A.: I'm afraid I didn't understand the question. • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, there were 30 of you who reached Srebrenica. From Srebrenica you all returned, (15)with the exception of this young man who got killed, you got to Vlasenica. From Vlasenica, eight of you went to Branjevo and Pilica. Where were the others, the other members of the detachment, in the meantime? • A.: I have to explain. I don't know where they (20)were on the 13th, 14th, and 15th, when I went to the funeral. On the 16th, as far as I remember, they all stayed behind me in Vlasenica, and when we returned to Vlasenica we saw them all there, because a few minutes after that we went to Bijeljina. (25)
• Q.: You stayed at the VMA, the military medical
(5) • A.: I definitely heard about the case of Nova Kasaba. • Q.: What did you hear? • A.: I heard that these persons from my unit were there, and this was recounted by somebody -- to my wife (10)and she passed it on to me, that Velimir Popovic, Brano Gojkovic, Milorad Pelemis, that they were in Nova Kasaba, that they took a man, a young boy, who reported and said that he had 100.000 German marks in a house in Srebrenica, that they took him there, he found the (15)money, and that they killed him. And when I came home, I heard the same story from Marko Boskic, telling some people. • Q.: Is that all that you heard about the movements of the members of the 10th Sabotage (20)Detachment during the time when you were not with the rest of them?
• A.: I heard later, my wife told me again, that
they had gone looking for gold. I don't know about
that for sure, but I think this could be true, because
(25)Marko Boskic told the same story a second time.
• A.: No. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Your Honours, (5)I have finished my cross-examination. Mr. Erdemovic, thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Erdemovic, first Mr. Harmon, would you (10)like to ask some questions? Thank you. MR. HARMON: I have only a couple of questions. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Mr. Erdemovic, you were asked by my colleague (15)questions about the joint operation between your unit and the Drina Wolves that took place in the direction of Srebrenica on the 11th of July. My first question relates to an answer you gave in my direct examination. You identified the (20)leader of the Drina Wolves as a man named Legenda. Do you remember that answer? You have to answer aloud. • A.: Yes. Yes.
• Q.: Now, members of the Drina Wolves -- did it
appear to you, when you were making the assault on
(25)Srebrenica, that members of your unit were working
• A.: It appeared to me that they were working in cohorts, that Pelemis did have contacts with Legenda, (5)which he probably did have in actual fact. • Q.: To your knowledge, did Legenda -- let me ask that question differently. To your knowledge, was Legenda a participant in the operations that were being directed against Srebrenica? (10) • A.: Yes, I saw that on the pictures, the video first, and later on you showed me a photograph and I identified it as being Legenda. • Q.: I want to focus your attention back to the time when you were participating in this operation, (15)that is, the 11th of July. Were you aware that Lieutenant Pelemis was in communications with Legenda?
• A.: Well, I did know because Pelemis said that we
should set fire to the first thing we came across on
the left, on the right. There was a haystack next to
(20)me and I should set the haystack on fire. He said that
we should set it alight so as not to be hit by the
artillery and Praga and those heavy machine-guns that
were positioned up on the hill. And I do know that
that was done -- that Legenda, in fact, was at that
(25)elevation point.
• A.: Yes. Yes, that's correct. And I also know (5)because of another example. When a bomb was thrown, we heard over the radio, our signals officers had said that a tank had been damaged, and the vehicle, a vehicle of the commander of the Drina Wolves, Legenda. A bomb fell on that hill where that communication line (10)was located, and Legenda himself. • Q.: Are you talking about a NATO bomb that fell? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And did the NATO bomb hit a location, as far as you're aware, that was near a vehicle that was (15)operated or owned by or used by Legenda? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Thank you very much, Mr. Erdemovic. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no additional questions. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Judge Wald, would you like to ask your questions? JUDGE WALD: Thank you. • QUESTIONED by the Court: (25)
JUDGE WALD: Mr. Erdemovic, as your unit was
• A.: No. There was -- well, I can't say there wasn't any resistance. You could hear shots shooting, but there was no great resistance of any kind. (10) JUDGE WALD: All right. Now, did your unit, during that same movement into the centre of Srebrenica, did your unit, or later on any of the other units which came down into the town, engage in setting any of the houses on fire or individual searches of the (15)houses that were in the area? • A.: As far as I remember, only one house was burnt and it was at the entrance, when you enter the town from the south side. It was close to the mosque, and it was when the NATO planes had already thrown (20)their bomb. And of course the members did take part in the search -- in searching the houses and buildings in the town of Srebrenica.
JUDGE WALD: At that time was anything done
during the period that your unit was in Srebrenica to
(25)the mosques, either one?
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Moving on to Branjevo. You said that in the course of the afternoon, something (5)between 1.000 to 1.200 people, you estimated, were killed. Were the bodies just left as each unit of ten -- as each group of ten was brought to be executed? Were the bodies of those that were already executed just left there, or during the period you were (10)there, did any kind of loading and carrying away of the bodies, putting them on trucks, et cetera, take place? • A.: No. JUDGE WALD: So in other words, as each new group of ten came up to be executed, they were brought (15)up to the place where they could see all the bodies of the people who had been previously executed just lying there; is that right? • A.: Yes. JUDGE WALD: Incidentally, were the drivers (20)of the buses that brought the victims to the Branjevo Farm, you mentioned that at one point it was said, "We don't want them to be witnesses," were they civilians? Were they police, military, what? The drivers of the buses that brought the victims. (25)
• A.: I only know that they drove civilian buses.
JUDGE WALD: So you don't remember whether they wore any kind of distinguishing uniform or just (5)civilian clothes? • A.: I don't remember. JUDGE WALD: Now, when you got to Pilica, you showed us where the cafe was and it was across the state from the Pilica Dom where the detainees were kept (10)inside. Now, this was, I gather, in the middle of the afternoon. Were there any other people around in the area? This is the middle of town, as I understand it. Besides the group that was with you in the cafe and the people who were inside the Dom across the street, there (15)were no ordinary townspeople around? • A.: Well, there were people there. Between these two buildings there was a checkpoint of the civilian police, and people did pass by in cars. And right next to the hall, there were houses, inhabited ones. Yes, (20)there were civilians. JUDGE WALD: So there were some people around on the streets while this was happening. • A.: Yes. Yes. Traffic was passing.
JUDGE WALD: You told us, I believe, that you
(25)heard the shots, and later detonations, inside the
• A.: When we arrived at the cafe, and when we turned off from the main road to get in front of the cafe to park the car, I saw people in front lying on the ground. While I was in the cafe itself, I heard (10)shooting and bombs. JUDGE WALD: But did you actually yourself see anybody being shot and fall in front of the Pilica Dom? • A.: No. (15) JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question. You and some of your colleagues from the 10th Unit were brought to Pilica, and then you say you went into the cafe and you sat down, you waited, and soon somebody came and said words to the effect that, "Well, it's (20)over, and those who have survived have survived." Did anybody ever explain why they brought you there if all you were going to do is sit in the cafe and watch from across the street?
• A.: Well, I couldn't see what was actually
(25)happening across the street. Nobody had told me
JUDGE WALD: My last question would be: Roughly what is your estimated number of the bodies (10)that you actually saw outside the Pilica Dom? • A.: I can't say with any certainty, but perhaps 10 or 15. I don't know exactly. JUDGE WALD: Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Judge Wald. (15)Mr. Erdemovic, I would like just to follow with you a little bit some of the phases of these unfortunate events. You said when you came into Srebrenica, at first they met a civilian who pleaded that he was not (20)in the army and still Mr. Pelemis ordered to slit his throat. That was just at the beginning. What was the purpose, really, of that?
• A.: Well, it happened, as far as I was able to
see, in Srebrenica, in the centre of town, where the
(25)second mosque was located. What the purpose was of
(5) JUDGE RIAD: Was it to intimidate the people? I mean, just a sign to show them what's going to happen to them? What was the reason? • A.: I cannot say that. I just cannot say. JUDGE RIAD: It was in front of all the (10)people. It was in broad daylight. • A.: Yes, it was. It happened in front of the soldiers. There were no civilians there. JUDGE RIAD: There were no civilians. Now, then they called on the people to move to the stadium. (15)Were men and women included, or was it just for the men? • A.: From the very beginning, when we moved into town, we called out to people, if there was anybody in the house to come out, because the houses would be (20)searched, and we were told that we weren't allowed to fire at civilians. So we called out to any civilians there, to come out of their houses and to move towards the stadium. This was at the entrance to the town.
JUDGE RIAD: All the people, you called on
(25)all the people of Srebrenica to move to the stadium.
JUDGE RIAD: And they moved to the stadium too? • A.: They were moving in front of us. I don't know where the stadium was or if it existed. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Were they included in the execution? These people who you said were old, the infirm, those who could not walk, they also went to the buses, to the execution? • A.: I don't know that. I didn't see it. (15) JUDGE RIAD: You didn't see that. But what kind of people were being executed then, exactly? Any women between them, to start with? • A.: No. JUDGE RIAD: Any old people? (20) • A.: I already said that they were between the ages of 17 and 60 or 70 years of age. JUDGE RIAD: Between 17 and 70. Those who were not between 17 and 70, what happened to them? • A.: I don't know. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: But you were there.
JUDGE RIAD: What happened to the people who were not executed? Were they left to stay at their (5)homes? What happened to them? If everybody had to go to the stadium, was there any separation, or did everybody have the same fate? • A.: All those people who had remained in their houses when we entered the town, they were told to come (10)out and move in front of us in the direction of the football stadium in Srebrenica. But I never reached that stadium, nor did I actually see this separation, the separation of these people, the individuals there. I just said that I know that the people that were (15)brought to the farm were between the ages of 17 and 70. JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned also that Stanko Savanovic was bragging that he killed between 200 and 300 men, and the squadron, the killing squad, was about (20)eight people. You who were killing, you were eight? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: If you count, then I think that reach -- was it a competition of who would kill more?
• A.: Well, that was it. Actually, he did it --
(25)some people, after the first shooting, would fall down
JUDGE RIAD: There was also shooting, as you said, by machine-guns and people were not killed, they (5)were hurt and some of them were not killed. Were they all finished after this? • A.: Yes. Yes, and Stanko Savanovic did most of that. JUDGE RIAD: There were no survivors, because (10)you said the Lieutenant Colonel said, "Those who survived have survived." Were there some survivors, in your opinion? • A.: I can't say now whether there were or weren't. I didn't examine all the people to be able to (15)ascertain that. JUDGE RIAD: I think you mentioned something about -- when you mentioned about the cafe, you said after 15 minutes you were in the cafe and a man came and said everything was over. What did you understand (20)from that? • A.: Well, that the execution in the Dom was over, and I didn't hear any more shooting after he had said that.
JUDGE RIAD: So it was clear that he was
(25)speaking of the execution.
JUDGE RIAD: Do you have an idea of who was (5)in the Dom? • A.: When that Lieutenant Colonel came towards the end, when everything was drawing to a conclusion at the Pilica farm, he said that there were 500 Muslims from Srebrenica who wanted to break through, so that I (10)concluded that they were Muslims from Srebrenica. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Erdemovic, thank you very much. Your testimony is over, and I repeat that we appreciate your coming. Thank you very much. You will now go out. (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] May I just ask a question of the President. JUDGE RIAD: Yes. And also I will request that if you have anything to add, you are welcome to add it, whether it's a question or whether it's any (20)statement.
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] I should like
to say that everything that occurred in Srebrenica,
that against Mr. -- that is to say, General, against
the General, I don't know him and I don't know that he
(25)issued any orders. And I should like to thank his
JUDGE RIAD: Would you like to say anything else in general about your experience? (5) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I hope that it is not repeated ever again to anyone. That it doesn't happen to anyone ever again, that is my greatest wish.
JUDGE RIAD: We share very much this wish.
Thank you very much, Mr. Erdemovic. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, we have ten minutes to go. You can use them the way you like. MR. HARMON: I would first like, Mr. President, Judge Riad, and Judge Wald, to introduce (15)the exhibits that have been testified about by Mr. Erdemovic, and if I could move into evidence, then, the following exhibits: 28/17, which is a photograph; a film, which was Prosecutor's Exhibit 145; 147, which was a photograph; 148, which was a film; 152 through (20)157, which were photographs; 158 as well, which was a photograph; Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/4; and Prosecutor's Exhibits 170 through 175, which were photographs.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
I assume that the Defence counsel has no
(25)objection.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. MR. HARMON: We have no additional evidence (5)today, Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: As I've mentioned before, tomorrow I will be the Presiding Judge, and we'll resume exactly our testimonies in the same way. So we'll start tomorrow at 9.30. (10)The hearing is adjourned. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
