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/ Colormap • Page 3185 • {1/108} (1)Tuesday, 23 May 2000 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.50 a.m. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'll be acting as the Presiding Judge today. Mr. Cayley is in charge, I can see. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Good morning, my learned friends for the (10)Defence. The next witness, Judge Riad, is a protected witness. So prior to the witness entering the courtroom, with your permission, if the blinds could be brought down. (15)Your Honour, we may have a slight technical problem with the transcript. There's no transcript appearing, and the court reporter is indicating to me that in just a couple of minutes it should be working again. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Good. We have to be patient. But the witness can come in in the meantime? MR. CAYLEY: I think so, Your Honour. That would probably save time.
JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar, would you order
(25)that the witness comes.
MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I think the technical problems are now sorted out, so we can continue and there will be a record of what we were (5)saying. JUDGE RIAD: Good morning. The witness has got a name, a pseudonym? THE REGISTRAR: "R," Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: Good morning. I won't call you (10)by your name. I will ask you to take an oath, as the bailiff will indicate to you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. (15)
WITNESS: WITNESS R JUDGE RIAD: Please sit down. MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, if the witness could just be shown his name just to confirm his (20)identity, and I'll hand that to the Court's officer. JUDGE RIAD: Yes, show him the paper. MR. CAYLEY: Witness, is your name written on the paper that was shown to you? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: And it will be?
JUDGE RIAD: Witness R. MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, with your permission, if the blinds could be raised. (5) JUDGE RIAD: I see. So it is not a full -- MR. CAYLEY: No, it's not a closed session, Your Honour. The witness will have his face distorted. JUDGE RIAD: So much the better, I hope, (10)because I think some people are in the gallery, coming from some universities. Yes, here they are. Please proceed, Mr. Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll just wait one moment until the blinds are fully up and (15)then I'll start my examination. • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Witness R, I shall call you Witness R so that your identity is protected. You're perfectly safe. Please relax as best you can. (20)You're Bosnian by nationality. • A.: Yes. • Q.: And you're a Muslim by faith. • A.: Yes.
• Q.: I think you were a member of the Bosnian army
(25)until June or July of 1993, at which time you left as a
• A.: That is correct. • Q.: Now, without naming the village to protect your identity, in July of 1995 you were living in a (5)village in the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: I want you to cast your mind back to the 11th of July, to 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon on that day. You were in the village of Susnjari. Can you tell the (10)Judge what you recall happened at that time? • A.: Simply, the enclave was captured by the Serbs, by the Serb army. I heard that it fell, that the town had fallen, simply. • Q.: What did you do? (15) • A.: We sent our families, women and children, to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari. I felt that I was capable, as a younger man, that I shouldn't go, so I stayed behind so that more people would gather together and head to the woods. (20) • Q.: Now, when you speak of more people gathering together to go to the woods, who were these people? • A.: They were people of Muslim ethnicity who were living in the enclave.
• Q.: Were they men or women or children, or a
(25)mixture of all three?
• Q.: What was the age group of the men who (5)gathered? • A.: From 10 years old up to 60, even 70 years of age. • Q.: Now, after you had gathered, what did this group do, this group of what you described as mostly (10)men from 10 to 60 or 70 years of age? • A.: A kind of column was formed. Those are narrow paths so we knew we had to form lines. And we headed towards the woods, in the direction of Tuzla. • Q.: Whereabouts were you in this column? (15) • A.: Somewhere around the middle. • Q.: On what date did you leave? • A.: It was the 12th, at about 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning when I set off from that place. • Q.: Now, I think you were armed. Can you (20)describe to the Judge the weapon that you had with you and how much ammunition you had.
• A.: There was a hunting rifle but not a proper
rifle. It's a souvenir of my father, a single barrel,
handmade rifle that was very old, maybe 100 years old.
(25)I had five or six bullets. Though the gun had never
• Q.: Now, I know you had an eventful journey through the woods, and the Defence indeed may have some (5)questions for you about that, but I want to move ahead to the 13th of July and I want you to think about approximately the events that happened on the morning of the 13th of July, at 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning. First of all, I'd like to show you a map that (10)you drew for me. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 159. Your Honour, this is a map which is computer generated. But the witness drew it for the Office of (15)the Prosecutor on Sunday and he's, in fact, confirmed the route that he drew on this map matches the broken line that you see on the map. • Q.: Witness, does this accurately reflect the route that you took from the Srebrenica enclave, (20)ultimately arriving in Nezuk sometime after the 19th of July? • A.: Yes, that is the path. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could place that map onto the ELMO. That's fine. (25)
• Q.: Witness R, could you point out to the Judge
• A.: [Inaudible response] • Q.: Could you say that again because I don't (5)think the interpreters heard you. Could you speak up? • A.: It was between Kasaba and Konjevic Polje, somewhere here [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is identifying an area on the dotted line that (10)lies directly between Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba, so on a vertical line running through Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba. • Q.: At what time were you at that location? • A.: Between 7.00 and 9.00, just then. (15) • Q.: You can take the pointer off that now. It's clear. Thank you. What were you doing?
• A.: A large group of people had congregated. In
my estimate, I think there were 2.000, maybe even 3.000
(20)people. It was morning, it had already dawned, and
there was an open space without any woods to protect
us. But the road had already been blocked,
Kasaba-Konjevic Polje, by Serb units so that it was
impossible to pass. We were there for about an hour or
(25)two, at least I was, and then I decided to move away
• Q.: Now, the 2.000 people that you're speaking of, these were people that had left the Srebrenica (5)enclave and had travelled in the column from the enclave, trying to escape to the free territory; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you tell the Judge, while you were hiding (10)in this wooded area, when you said you moved away to the surrounding woods, what you saw from your vantage point. • A.: At about 1.00, I saw the Serb army surrounding this large group of people. Everyone (15)separated from the group, 10, 20, or 30 metres, were killed by these troops; that is, they killed all those who were away from the group. However, most of the others were captured and forced towards the asphalt road leading from Konjevic Polje to Nova Kasaba. (20) • Q.: When you're referring to the large group, this is the group of 2.000 people that you spoke of earlier. • A.: Yes. Yes, that's that group.
• Q.: Did you see anybody actually killed yourself
(25)on that day?
• Q.: Can you recall how many people from the group you saw killed? (10) • A.: Quite a large number of people. In my opinion, between 200 and 300. • Q.: Who was doing the killing? • A.: The Serb troops, the military. • Q.: And you say that you were at a distance of (15)between 300 and 500 metres from this shooting. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Let's now move on to the 14th of July of 1995, and if you can tell the Judge what you did on that day? (20)
• A.: On that day, I took a roundabout route in the
direction of Kasaba, and on the way I saw the tanks and
APCs and Pragas and other weapons lined up. However,
during the night, that is, on the 14th, early in the
morning, we managed to cross over, about five or six of
(25)us -- actually, six to be precise.
(5) MR. CAYLEY: If you could move it up a bit, please, Mr. Usher. • A.: Here [indicates] It was here [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 159, that the witness is (10)indicating that he crossed the road between Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba at a point which is bisected by the dotted line. • Q.: Now, let's move ahead in time to the 18th of July of 1995. (15) MR. CAYLEY: If that could be left on the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher, and if you could move it down just a little bit. That's fine. • Q.: Can you indicate to Judge Riad the route that you took and the point at which you arrived, on the (20)map, on the 18th of July.
• A.: I took this route
[indicates], and on the
18th of July we got here
[indicates], we arrived here
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 159, that he followed the broken line then to an area which (5)is marked approximately by the shaded circle labeled "Bajkovica," and he states in his evidence that he arrived at that point on the 18th of July. • Q.: How many people reached Bajkovica on the 18th of July? How many from the group that had left (10)Srebrenica? • A.: These groups were moving in various directions so one cannot say that they arrived together. But at any event, when I got there, there were about 500 men already there. (15) • Q.: Did you stay with this group? • A.: Yes, but very briefly, for an hour, because again we could hear shooting in the vicinity and we were called upon to surrender by the Serb army. • Q.: So when you were called upon to surrender by (20)the Serb army, what did you do?
• A.: Again, knowing from experience what had
happened between Konjevic Polje and Kravica, and
fearing that I would be killed, again I decided,
together with another group -- there were ten of us in
(25)all -- we split from that group and went into the woods
• Q.: Now, let's move ahead in time again to the 19th of July of 1995, and if you can tell the Judge (5)where you found yourself on that day, and in fact with how many other Bosnian Muslim men you were with on that day. • A.: Yes. It is this place here [indicates] that has been marked on the map as Bajkovica, that has been (10)shaded in and encircled in black. Together with ten other Muslims. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness, on the 19th of July, again was in and around an area which is marked approximately on the map as the (15)area of Bajkovica. • Q.: Can you tell the Judge what happened to you and these other men on the 19th of July?
• A.: It was a tragic day. We were in a place
where the Serb army had its front trenches, I think the
(20)first trenches at the beginning of the war, and we
could see the Serb front line at a distance of a
kilometre away from us, on a hill, in a wood. It was
about 12.00, 12.30, when we were captured. We were on
a small path next to these trenches. It was a freshly
(25)laid path and one could see that footsteps; I don't
• Q.: Now, Witness, I just have a number of questions to clarify what you've said. Now, you spoke (10)in your testimony about a man called Stari. How was he dressed? • A.: Yes, that's what they called him, Stari. He had a military uniform on, without any insignia or rank, and it was a camouflage army uniform. He was (15)somewhat older, he was bald, he had hairy arms, short in build. That's what he looked like, what I was able to notice at least. • Q.: Now, you said in your evidence that the soldiers looked to Stari for instructions. Did Stari (20)appear to be in charge on the ground at this spot? • A.: Yes. Yes, Stari was in charge there. That was obvious. You could notice that quite evidently. • Q.: Now, you say that you saw another soldier with a radio transmitter; do you recall that? (25)
• A.: Yes, I do. There was a soldier with a radio
(5) • Q.: And you saw, I think, Stari on the radio passing instructions to another unit; is that correct? • A.: Yes. Yes, that's correct. • Q.: And those instructions, I think you said in your evidence, concerned the other group of 500 Muslim (10)men who were still in the woods; is that correct? • A.: Well, yes, that's how it was. One of them explained that the group was there and he gave strict orders that the group should be finished off. • Q.: And again, just for absolute clarity, you're (15)talking about the other group of 500 Muslim men in the woods. That's the group that he said should be finished off. • A.: No. The group at Baljkovica, where I arrived on the 18th. There wasn't another group in the woods. (20)There were the ten of us there who had left on the 18th, and on the 19th we gathered at that place where we were executed. • Q.: So when he said, "Finish them off," who is he referring to? (25)
• A.: Well, that group. That group was there where
(5) • Q.: And how many were in that group? How many men? • A.: About 500 people. • Q.: Now, when you were taken to be shot yourself, you only saw one other dead man; is that right? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: But you stated in your evidence how two men had been taken away to be shot before you. Where was the other man? • A.: Yes. We were taken to the left, the other (15)one was taken to the right. So that -- the fern was fairly high so you couldn't see properly, that is to say, I didn't even have time to look, to look at that first one, the first one that was shot, that young boy. (20) • Q.: Now, while you were lying there after you had been shot, how many further shots did you hear; do you recall?
• A.: There were a number of shots. One, two or
three minutes after me, as far as I was able to assess,
(25)although it was a very difficult moment for me and I
• Q.: Let's go back to uniforms again. I realise these were very difficult moments for you. Do you recall on any of these Serb soldiers, on any of these 50 soldiers, seeing any badges on them? (15)
• A.: Yes, there were some signs, insignia. On the
left-hand arm, as far as I was able to notice, although
as I say, this was a very short space of time and it
was all very difficult for me to see. I had my head
down on the ground, to the left. But on the left-hand
(20)arm there was a yellow insignia. Perhaps there was
some other colour there but it was predominantly
yellow, and there was a yellow sort of circle and it
said "The Krajisnici," men from Krajisnici, something
like that, on this circle in this patch. It was
(25)difficult to make it out because he moved his arm
• Q.: Now, you said later into the evening the Bosnian Serb soldiers left. • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: What did you do after they'd left?
• A.: Well, I'd been lying there for quite some
time, and when I was sure that there were no more
noises, and nobody around, and it was already dark, I
raised my head a little to see if there was anybody
(20)about anywhere, just to make sure, but I didn't hear
anybody. So I raised my head and I found it very
difficult to get up because I had become rigid from all
that lying down. But I did manage to raise myself a
little and sit down, and I saw that there was nobody
(25)anywhere around.
• Q.: Could you just indicate to Judge Riad on the map next to you the route that you took from Baljkovica? • A.: It was this direction here [indicates], with (15)the dotted line. The dotted line shows the route towards Nezuk. MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is showing, on Exhibit 159, a route leading from an area shaded Baljkovica, across the (20)confrontation line to the town or village of Nezuk. Now, if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 151, and this shouldn't go on the ELMO because it identifies the witness. And if he could be shown 151A which is the Bosnian version. (25)
• Q.: Witness, this is a letter of discharge from
(5) • A.: Yes, they are my medical records. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, the English translation is Exhibit 151. • Q.: Now, Witness, I just have a few more questions for you. I'm not going to show you this (10)statement, but this is a statement -- although in fact the Defence may wish to, but this is a statement that you gave to the Bosnian authorities on the 26th of August of 1995, and you and I have already discussed this. You state, and I'll read slowly for the purposes (15)of the record, at the beginning of that statement: "I was together with the majority of the inhabitants on the defence lines in the area of Susnjari and Jaglici." And this is referring to early July. Now, (20)you will recall in your evidence you stated that you had left the Bosnian army in June or July of 1993. Were you on the defence lines in July of 1995, or is that statement incorrect?
• A.: I was not on the defence lines at that time,
(25)in 1995, in June, because, as I've already said, I left
• Q.: Now, I just have a couple more questions for you. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, if we could go into (10)closed session because I want to ask him about one of the survivors, and if he starts naming individuals who are executed and the survivors, he will identify himself. JUDGE RIAD: For how long, do you think, for (15)the gallery? MR. CAYLEY: A couple of minutes. JUDGE RIAD: A couple of minutes. Thank you. You can draw the curtains. MR. CAYLEY: The curtains don't need to go (20)down. We can have a private session, just so that the public feed is cut for a couple of minutes. JUDGE RIAD: We don't need to draw the curtains.
MR. CAYLEY: No, Your Honour.
(25)
MR. CAYLEY:
• A.: I think it was about 12.30. From 12.00 to 1.00 in the afternoon, in that time. • Q.: How many of your male relatives did you lose during Srebrenica? (10) • A.: Many. I lost many members of my family. My brother, my father, and a lot of other family members, practically all of them. • Q.: Are you one of the few male members of your extended family still alive? (15) • A.: Yes, I'm the only one. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, I have no further questions of the witness, so I can offer him for cross-examination. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Cayley. (20)Would you rather have a break now before the cross-examination starts? Who will assume the cross-examination, Mr. Visnjic or Mr. Petrusic?
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Good morning,
Mr. President. Witness R's cross-examination will be
(25)done by me. I am counsel Petrusic. And we agree with
JUDGE RIAD: Good. Then I'll ask the witness to have a rest and to come back. You know the procedure here is that you will be asked questions by (5)the Defence counsel, who will help finding out the truth which we are all searching for here. So we will adjourn for half an hour. Thank you very much. --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m. (10) --- On resuming at 11.23 a.m. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, would you proceed, please. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: [Int.] Witness R, good morning to (15)you. • A.: Good morning. • Q.: I'm going to put some questions to you in keeping with the procedure, and I shall try not to have to take you back to everything that you lived through. (20) • A.: Yes. Please go ahead. • Q.: My first question, Witness R, is who told you that you had to leave the Susnjari area on the 11th of July?
• A.: From two men, two men I don't know, who
(25)passed through the region and explained to the people
• Q.: Were they soldiers, members of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army? • A.: For the most part they were not soldiers. And in fact at that time there was no army of (10)Bosnia-Herzegovina. What did exist was the Territorial Defence, until the demilitarisation of Srebrenica. So with the gathering of these people, there were those who were, perhaps, in uniform but they came by the uniforms in their own way, they got them themselves. (15) • Q.: Witness R, these two individuals, my question is directed towards them, were they wearing uniforms, military uniforms? • A.: No. • Q.: Witness R, you gave a statement to the State (20)Security Service of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 26th of August, 1995; do you remember that? • A.: Yes.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President,
I should like to have this statement shown to the
(25)witness and the Trial Chamber.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For you to be able to follow, I have marked the passages on page 1 (5)that I'm going to discuss. • Q.: Witness R, this statement, that is to say, the signature at the end of it, is it your signature? • A.: Yes, it is. It's my signature. • Q.: Is it your statement, therefore? (10) • A.: I think it is. I didn't read through the whole of it, but looking at the signatures, they are mine. • Q.: Witness R, my learned colleague Mr. Cayley indicated a portion of this statement, read it out, and (15)I should like to say that in the first sentence you state the following, after the first sentence which ends with "Zeleni Jadar," you go on to say: "I was together with the majority of the inhabitants on the defence lines in the region of Susnjari and Jaglici." (20)Did you, in fact, state that? • A.: That I was in the vicinity of Susnjari and Jaglici, yes, but that I was at the lines, no.
• Q.: Further on you say that: "At around 1800
hours, on the 11th of July, 1995, after the breakdown
(25)of the defences of Srebrenica, two soldiers unknown to
• A.: No, I didn't say that the two soldiers were (10)there, and that I said that we went towards this breakthrough, I did not -- to try to break through, I did not use the word "breakthrough," "proboj," in respect of the army and weapons. I think that most probably, according to the stories, how it was (15)recounted, they drew up this statement. • Q.: But you did sign the document nonetheless, did you not? • A.: Yes, I did sign it. However, as I was not confronted with the giving of -- I had never given (20)statements before this case, I cannot agree. I don't agree that I said all this in this particular way and that every word is as I said it and that it means something. I am not a lawyer myself, and what I did was recount the events. (25)
• Q.: Do you consider that the people who took down
• A.: Well, I don't know the people who took the statement down, I just met them; that is to say, they (5)found me and they called me to give a statement. They just introduced themselves. • Q.: Do you consider that they forged your statement? • A.: Well, judging by this, perhaps they added (10)some words of their own to it. That is a possibility. • Q.: Witness R, as far as you are aware, how many able-bodied men gathered in Jaglici or Susnjari on the 11th of July? • A.: I cannot give you an exact figure because I (15)didn't count them, but it was a very large group of people. But they were not all of military age. There were some from 10 up to 60, and even 70 years of age, and they were mostly civilians, civilian persons. • Q.: You had a hunting rifle, an old hunting (20)rifle. • A.: Yes, with one barrel, handmade, as a souvenir from my father.
• Q.: Did you notice that possibly some other
members in the group had similar weapons, hunting
(25)weapons?
• Q.: Was any military, so-called military weapons left over, automatic rifles, Kalashnikovs, (5)semi-automatic rifles, the kind of weapons used by the army? • A.: There were some but very, very few. • Q.: Witness R, did you hear from your fellow citizens when you crossed into free territory, did you (10)hear anything in connection with the part of the column that was armed? • A.: I heard about a part of that column that crossed over, a very, very small number of people, that they were assisted by the BiH army at the crossing at (15)Baljkovica to pull out. A certain number, how many, I don't know, I didn't see them, but they didn't really have any weapons. At the beginning they didn't. • Q.: So when the column was formed, they didn't have any weapons? (20) • A.: They did have weapons but not real weapons. They had some hunting rifles and some Kalashnikovs, automatic rifles. They had something.
• Q.: As you were going from Susnjari, Jaglici, to
Buljim and descending towards the Konjevic Polje-Kasaba
(25)road, was there any exchange of fire within the group
• A.: At one point, near the village of Kamenica, this large group congregated and we were surrounded, and there were shots fired from all sides. I cannot (5)say that I saw shooting or fire exchanged within the group, because of course one cannot hit one's own when everyone is seeking salvation. But there was shooting and you couldn't really tell. It was coming from all sides, and anyway, we were totally encircled. (10) • Q.: Did you hear anything about possibly suicides? • A.: There were several killings in a large group between Konjevic Polje and Kasaba. In this large group, several wounded persons killed themselves, and I (15)saw that. They simply couldn't go any further. They were lying down, they put grenades under their bodies and committed suicide. They had no other choice. • Q.: Sir, you were living in a locality close to Srebrenica which was part of the demilitarised zone. (20)Tell me, please, did you ever hear about the existence of a military formation called the 28th Division, under the command of Naser Oric?
• A.: Yes, I did know of the 28th Division,
everyone knows that, but it was the Territorial Defence
(25)and that was at the beginning. Simply, everyone
• Q.: So after the demilitarisation of Srebrenica, there was no 28th Division, nor Naser Oric there. (5) • A.: I'm not saying that they weren't there. Naser was there; I saw him. But as for the army, it was not there. I didn't see them. • Q.: Does that mean that Naser was the commander of a unit without troops? (10) • A.: I don't know how I can answer that question. If there are no troops, how can he be a commander? • Q.: But you said that you saw Naser and that he was a commander. • A.: I saw him as a person. I couldn't see him as (15)a commander. I don't know how I can say he was a commander. You can tell me someone here is a commander, but how can I know that? • Q.: On three occasions since 1995 to the present, you gave statements to the Ministry of the Interior, to (20)the State Security Service, and to the team of investigators of the Prosecutor's Office. • A.: Yes, I did give those statements. • Q.: This was in August 1995. • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Your recollections in August 1995 regarding
• A.: One might say that I am in a more focused state of mind now than then. It was fresher, more recent, but the concentration, after a time has gone by, can improve. (10) • Q.: Witness R, today you are telling us about an event involving a large number of people, a very significant event, when, according to you, about 200 people were executed in Konjevic Polje, close to the group which numbered about 2.000 people. (15) • A.: They were not people who were executed, lined up and executed. Some people were sitting; some were standing. But all those who were separate from this large group, who were some distance away from the group were simply killed because they were surrounded on all (20)sides. • Q.: Perhaps I didn't use the right expression. But according to your testimony, 200 people were killed.
• A.: As far as I can tell, the number is between
(25)200 and 300. I didn't count them.
• A.: Yes. In every statement they kept cautioning me that it wasn't important that -- that it was important to say only what I actually saw. If I was a (10)little further away, that wasn't important. • Q.: You were cautioned to that effect by the investigators? • A.: Yes. They told me that I should recount the things that happened to me, whereas other people would (15)tell about other experiences. . • Q.: Further in your statement, one notes that you mention for the first time today units that you describe as Drinski. • A.: Yes. I mostly spoke about the Krajisnici, (20)Krajiska. But in thinking over what actually happened, I could see one letter, like "D", like "Drina", like "Drinski". So in my opinion, there were soldiers with such insignia as well. • Q.: You just mentioned a single letter? (25)
• A.: Yes, one letter. It was on the left sleeve,
(5) • Q.: But you saw the letter "D"? • A.: Yes, "Drinski". Maybe I wasn't able to decipher each and every letter, but "Dre" and then one naturally concludes that it must be "Drinski". • Q.: Witness R, the investigators that interviewed (10)you in August certainly asked you about units, because you mentioned Krajisnici and such like. Can you explain then, as this happened to you, why did you not mention then the unit that was wearing this emblem with the word "Drinski" or something like that? (15) • A.: I just explained a moment ago that thinking back to that event, I was reminded that I saw "Drinski" on a few of those soldiers. Not all. Most of them were "Krajiska", "Krajisnici", most of them. • Q.: In what alphabet was that written? (20)
• A.: In view of the fact that I studied Latin and
Cyrillic scripts, there was no Cyrillic, as far as one
could remember. But this was a very difficult moment
when you can't notice or hear or register everything.
It is hard to imagine, and it is hard to be certain at
(25)that moment.
• A.: Well, since "K" is written in the same way in (5)both scripts, the letter "K" was there. And since the letter "R" has only one more line, it is "P" in the Latin script and "R" in the Cyrillic script, the two are similar again. And I studied both scripts at school, so it's not so confusing to me. I can read (10)both. But as far as I can remember, it was in Cyrillic script, but it's quite possible that it might have been in Latin script. • Q.: So you're not sure. • A.: Yes, I'm sure it said "Krajisnici", (15)"Krajiska", or something to that effect. • Q.: Witness R, I'm asking you about Drinski. • A.: Well, that's a different question. You asked me about the Krajisnici. As for Drinski -- I don't know how I can explain this to you. Everything I have (20)said about Krajisnici also applies to Drinski. I studied the Latin and Cyrillic scripts, and that is how I deciphered the patch. • Q.: So my question is: Are you sure that it was one or the other script or a mixture? (25)
• A.: I'm sure that it said "Krajisnici". And
• Q.: So regarding "Drinski", you have a feeling (5)that it was there? • A.: Yes. As to what I feel now and remember now, I must underline once again that these were difficult moments, and in such moments it is difficult to expect a lot, because just imagine if you were in such a (10)situation, how you would feel. • Q.: To wind up this cross-examination, when you crossed over to free territory, did you learn from your friends and acquaintances, who had also crossed into that territory, anything about who had crossed the (15)Rajkovici mountain, the confrontation line there, that an agreement had been made between the commander of the Zvornik Brigade and the commander who led that group; in other words, that an agreement had been reached to open the lines at Bajkovac and to allow the convoy to (20)pass?. This was on the 17th or the 18th of July, 1995.
• A.: I sorry, I didn't hear that, but I know that
they went through similar troubles with the assistance
of the BiH army that somehow managed to deblock the
(25)area to help this group pull out. That is what I
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, (5)the Defence has no further questions. Witness R, thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Cayley, would you like to respond? MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I have no further (10)questions for the witness. Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Cayley. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Witness R, I would like to just clarify a few points which you mentioned. (15)When you spoke of what Mr. Cayley called a vantage point in the woods -- I don't know how they translated that in Serbo-Croat because "vantage point" is a very sophisticated word -- I think you saw between 200 or 300 people killed by the Serb troops. Were they (20)killed in the fighting or was it a summary execution? Were you able to see that?
• A.: Yes, I saw that. It wasn't in fighting, it
was killing people at random, people who were standing
there, who had decided to surrender to the Serb army
(25)because they didn't know where to go. And they were
JUDGE RIAD: You saw that very clearly from where you were? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: You saw the shooting or you saw (10)the bodies on the ground? • A.: I saw the bodies, and I saw a man, as he was hit, falling down. Some people crying out, screaming out, I saw that. JUDGE RIAD: So you saw the whole event and (15)not the aftermath, just people lying down. You saw and heard the shots? • A.: Yes. It was from the nearby woods. It wasn't far away, as the crow flies. If we were to measure this distance, it would be 300 to 500 metres (20)away. And as we were on the hill and they were down in the vale, one could see it.
JUDGE RIAD: Very good. Now, when you spoke
about this old man, Stari, among other things which you
said, he said, "The Wolves will deal with them," if you
(25)remember what you said. What did you conclude from
• A.: The Wolves, I think, were -- as I could hear (5)from others, that they were a unit, a Serb unit. And when he said they would deal with them, what I thought he meant was that they would catch them and do something. I don't know what. Probably what he did with us. That was my idea. (10) JUDGE RIAD: What they did with you, it means shooting or killing, what you said about yourself. That was your conclusion? • A.: Yes. Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Now, speaking of you, you were (15)shot at a distance of one metre, and you were lying down on the ground in your blood until night. Now, were you in shape to move after that? Did you have the strength to start moving after that? What happened exactly? Did somebody carry you or were you able to go (20)through?
• A.: There was no one there to help me. I managed
to get up. It was hard. I was all stiff. But by
budging left and right, I managed to sit up. And after
sitting for five to ten minutes, I somehow managed to
(25)climb up against a tree to get on my feet. As I was
JUDGE RIAD: Very good. Just with reference (5)to the insignia you thought you saw, the Drinski insignia, you said you had the feeling that this insignia existed. Can you just explain how this feeling came to you? What gave you this feeling? You heard people mentioning the word or you read it? If (10)you can try to know the origin of this feeling, if you could.
• A.: Well, it is difficult because this Stari who
was giving orders said, "The Wolves will deal with it,"
and I thought he meant the Drina Wolves because I had
(15)heard of that unit.
As for Krajisnici or Krajiska, I am sure of
this emblem. It is a yellow-coloured patch on the left
sleeve worn by all these soldiers. But when I think
hard, I have a feeling that there were soldiers who
(20)were also wearing similar patches with the word
"Drinski." But I have this feeling now after a long
period of time and after thinking hard. For Krajiski,
Krajisnici, or Krajiska, I am sure of that. It was a
yellow patch, and I can show you this patch. If you
(25)can get a hold of an example of this patch, I'm sure I
JUDGE RIAD: The Krajisnici. You are concentrating on the Krajisnici badge; is that right? This is the thing you are sure of? (5) • A.: Yes. There are three possibilities; Krajisnici, Krajiska, or something to that effect. I think it said "Krajiska," "Krajisnici," something to that effect. JUDGE RIAD: And did you have an idea of (10)where these people would come from? • A.: No. JUDGE RIAD: Did you hear them speak? Did you hear their dialect? • A.: Well, the dialect amongst the Serbs, at (15)least, is similar, so I can't judge by their speech. JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know whether they were coming from Serbia, from Bosnia. • A.: No, I couldn't tell. JUDGE RIAD: That's all the questions I (20)wanted to ask you. I would like to thank you very much for coming and congratulate you for getting out of this great ordeal alive and safe and sound. Thank you very much. Mr. Bailiff, we'll have to take him out. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, before the witness
JUDGE RIAD: Good. Before he leaves. Then before he leaves, I would like to ask him if he would like to add anything to what he said. Anything you (5)would like to mention, to tell the Tribunal? You have come the whole way, and you are entitled to be heard. THE WITNESS: [Int.] This was my only wish, to have the opportunity to tell about what happened to normal people so that they can feel and see (10)what they did, so that they can remember what they did. That's all. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness R. I can't say your name. Mr. Cayley. (15)
MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, there are a number
of exhibits, and I think my learned friend has one
exhibit too.
First of all, Exhibit 151, which is an
English translation of a letter of discharge and
(20)medical report, and Exhibit 151A, which is the original
of that report in the Bosnian language. I would apply
for formal admission into evidence of those two
documents. They should remain under seal because they
identify the witness.
(25)The second item is Exhibit 159, which is the
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Cayley. (10)Does the Defence have any document to present into evidence? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The Defence has no objection regarding the documents tendered by the Prosecutor. And I think D19 is the exhibit shown (15)to Your Honours which we would like to tender. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: If I can add in respect of D19, and I'm sure my learned friend won't object, it should be under seal because the document identifies the (20)witness. It has his signature and name upon it, so it should remain under seal. JUDGE RIAD: I think we have to keep it under seal. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes. Yes. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. Now, Witness R,
MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour, I think so. Judge Riad, while this is taking place, (5)Mr. McCloskey and I will change places because he's leading the next witness, unless you wish to take a short break at this time.
JUDGE RIAD: No, we can continue. Perhaps
you can ask him if he wants to lead the witness.
MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Witness S, you are a Bosnian by nationality; is that correct? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you tell us where you were living in July of 1995 and who you were living with? (5) • A.: I lived in Srebrenica with my family, my wife and two children. • Q.: And on July 11th, did you decide to do something along with your family? • A.: On the 11th of July we had to separate. I (10)decided to go with the other men, to take to the woods, and my wife and children remained and went with the other people to the UNPROFOR base at Potocari. • Q.: Can you briefly describe the circumstances why you decided you had to leave your home and your (15)family had to leave their home. • A.: Well, I saw that the situation was a chaotic one, a terrible one, and there was no other way out. We could only expect death down there because we had no protection from UNPROFOR, and we decided to take to the (20)woods. • Q.: Is that because the Serb army had taken over Srebrenica on the 11th?
• A.: Yes, it had already taken over half the town,
from the hill of Bojna. And there was no reason to
(25)wait any longer, there was no possibility for safety.
• A.: I went with all the other men towards the village of Slatine and Susnjari, upwards. (5) • Q.: About how many other men were gathered in the area of Susnjari when you got there? • A.: Well, there were about 12.000 and 15.000. I can't give you an exact figure, but there were a lot of us. (10) • Q.: Do you know roughly how many of those men might have been armed in some way? • A.: As far as I was able to note, about a third, I'd say, with hunting rifles, not very strong weaponry; hunting rifles and other types. But a third of them, I (15)would say. Not more. • Q.: Did you, yourself, have some kind of armament? • A.: No. No. • Q.: Did you have some military explosive? (20) • A.: In my bag I had a hand grenade which I put there, if I were captured by the Serbs, to be able to take my own life. • Q.: When you set off -- what time did you set off from Susnjari? (25)
• A.: Well, from a field in front of a house, I
• Q.: Was that the evening of the 11th, or was it noon on the 12th? (5) • A.: It was in the evening of the 12th -- no, I'm sorry. It was between the 11th and 12th. We started out on the 11th, at about 2.30, and in the evening we arrived at Susnjari at about 10.00. We had a consultation there. So that at about 12.00, midnight, (10)that is to say, we started out. The night between the 11th and 12th. • Q.: What was this consultation you referred to? • A.: Well, we lined up so that as many people could cross as possible, because the Serb lines were (15)very near and there were a lot of us. Around Causi and the surrounding hills, that's where they were. • Q.: Was someone leading the consultation or leading this large group of men? • A.: No. They just tried to line us up so that (20)people with weapons and without weapons would be mixed up together, and if we came across an ambush, to prevent as many people losing their lives as possible.
• Q.: When you say "they," -- so there were some
people leading this, or trying to communicate to the
(25)large group?
(5) • Q.: Did you notice military people too that had been in the military? • A.: Well, there was the Territorial Defence. It wasn't an army, because it was a demilitarised zone, so there was just this sort of Territorial Defence if the (10)situation would arise, as it in fact did. • Q.: So there were some Territorial Defence people there also. • A.: Yes. Yes. • Q.: I know you spent some time through the woods, (15)but I'm going to -- the counsel for the Defence may ask you about that, the Judge, but I would like also, I'd like to take you, if I could, through the 12th and start out with the late evening hours of the 12th. If you could tell us where you were on the late hours of (20)the 12th and what you recall happening then, and then work your way onto the morning of the 13th when you were captured.
• A.: On the 12th, at 11.30, I crossed the first
Serb lines. At about 2.00, 2.30, there was an ambush
(25)towards the village of Kamenica --
• A.: No, at noon on the 12th, because I was at Buljim, in front of the first Serb lines from the (5)morning, from 5.00 a.m. until 11.30. We were not able to cross over, and the column was interrupted. And at 11.30, I crossed the first Serb line with a group and then we came across an ambush by a stream. And sometime in the afternoon I reached the Kamenica Hill, (10)where I saw a lot of soldiers who had gone ahead. The situation was one of chaos. First of all, they said that the wounded should go in front, and I took a wounded man and went in front. But towards evening we went to the village of Kamenica and moved on towards (15)the village of Unice [phoen] As we were going down from the village of Kamenica I drank a lot of water, and by 12.00 we went up through the village of Burnice. I felt very sleepy and I don't know what time it was, 12.00, 12.30, and I lost consciousness. I woke (20)up in the morning at around 3.00 a.m. and got to Konjevic Polje. • Q.: So this is the morning of the 13th that you got to Konjevic Polje. • A.: Yes. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness
• Q.: I believe you've told us previously that you were near the intersection at Konjevic Polje. Could (5)you point out just roughly where you found yourself the morning of the 13th. You can just point with your finger on that map. No, you've got the pointer. That's great. • A.: I found myself by the road, between Kravica (10)Rijeka and the road towards Bratunac. • Q.: Okay. Why don't you use the pointer and show us what you mean. • A.: It is this section here [indicates] • Q.: That's the -- you're pointing to the (15)intersection just, it looks like, perhaps a kilometre south of the little dot that says "Konjevic Polje." Can you describe the situation you found yourself in that morning. What occurred?
• A.: When I came to, regained consciousness, I
(20)looked at my watch and it was about 3.00 a.m. I was in
some grassland and then went into a cornfield of some
kind. And I saw that I was in a very grave situation.
As I knew the terrain slightly from before the war, I
saw a bridge which goes towards Kasaba. I thought
(25)about what I was going to do next, and I went down
• Q.: Witness, as you know, what you're saying has to be interpreted. I can tell that you're going a little -- if you can just slow down a little bit and (10)just tell us the main things that occurred. • A.: At that moment the first policeman came up to me, he took my bag away, took out the hand grenade which was in the bag and which I had intended to commit suicide with. He asked me what I had in my pockets. (15)Then he searched my pockets and took out the tobacco, he took out my lighter from my pocket and wallet, in which I had 310 German marks. I had my passport, my ID card, my diary and telephone directory with the telephone numbers of my family abroad, and I had a (20)ticket. • Q.: Did he take -- • A.: Which I had for work --
• Q.: So he took all those identification
documents. That's the first thing -- that's one of the
(25)first things that this person you've described as a
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, can you describe what this person you've described as a police officer was wearing, and what the (5)other people that he was with were wearing who captured you that morning at Konjevic Polje? • A.: There were several of them there. They were standing five to ten metres away. They had dark blue uniforms and slightly multicoloured. They weren't all (10)blue, they were the mass type of blue uniform and they were all in one. They had a belt around their waist in front. • Q.: Did you notice any insignia? • A.: No. (15) • Q.: After they took all your ID documents, what happened? And tell us when you come to a point where you were able to recognise someone so we can stop.
• A.: That other policeman, the second one who was
standing next to the one that had taken my documents
(20)from me, he said, "Lie down so I can slit your
throat." I laid down by the roadside and said, "Go
ahead. Slit my throat. Go ahead." But a third person
was there and he said, "Don't touch him. Leave him
alone," and he told me to get up. I got up, and he
(25)said to the other one, "Take him up there." And he
• Q.: Let me ask you, what exactly did this person do with the grenade? • A.: I think that he had this grenade and he threw (15)it, and he killed himself on that road. • Q.: With the grenade? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And that happened before you were captured or after you were captured? (20) • A.: I think while they were shooting at me, he must have been close by, some 50 metres away. I didn't notice him, but I found him there dead.
• Q.: Let's get on with your testimony. You said
that you were taken to a place near a school. Where
(25)were you taken?
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Just to try to confirm that, did the person with the grenade use that grenade to kill himself, or did he throw it at the Serb soldiers? • A.: I think that he tried to run across the (10)road. I was a little further away so I didn't quite see it. And he had no other way. • Q.: Do you know if the explosion of the hand grenade killed him or whether Serb bullets killed him, or could you tell? (15) • A.: His face was covered in blood and he had a jacket on him. I couldn't see any other wounds. And he was lying face down, with his arms spread out on the asphalt road. • Q.: Did you see the hand grenade explode? (20) • A.: No. It was fear, probably. There were five or six of them, they were shooting over me from automatic rifles. I was scared so I didn't see. • Q.: Did you see him throw the hand grenade away from himself? (25)
• A.: No. He may have been some 40 metres away
• Q.: Why did you think there was a hand grenade involved in his death? • A.: That's what they told me, and the blood was (5)still hot. When I picked him up first by the arms, and then the legs, my arms were bloody and his blood was warm, so it was a fresh wound. • Q.: Okay. It's important that when you're testifying, just testify about what you saw and heard, (10)and if someone -- if you're testifying about what someone else told you, make sure you tell us that also, okay? • A.: Okay. • Q.: Can you tell us where you were first taken by (15)these men?
• A.: They took me to an area in front of the
school. There was a like a small shed. And there were
a couple of soldiers in camouflage uniforms in that
shed. There were two other men that I knew. There
(20)were traces of blows on them. The man brought me
there, a man I knew, and he told them, "Don't anyone
touch him." But they tried to enter, there was one
with a rifle there who was watching over us, they
wanted to come in and beat us and they said, "Look at
(25)him, how big he is." Afterwards a man came talking to
MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I think we've (5)reached the point where he recognises some people, so we should go into private session, I believe.
JUDGE RIAD: Okay. Madam Registrar, please
order a private session.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Exhibit 177. And could you put that on the ELMO, please. (20) • Q.: Do you recognise the little building depicted in 177? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Can you tell us where you were taken in
relation to that building, and show us with your
(25)pointer.
MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, he shows that he entered this little brick building, in the forefront (5)of the photo, from what would be the right side. • Q.: You've already testified that there were at least two Muslim men you knew in there that were captives, and a Serb policeman that you knew. What occurred in the building, and where did you go next? (10) • A.: The Serb policeman brought me there, and apart from us -- next to us were soldiers in camouflage uniforms, and he disappeared. He later came again and told us that we had to go somewhere for some officers to question us. And then he led us from this small (15)building forward, along this path, across a meadow, to another house. • Q.: Now, the person that led you to another house, was that a Serb policeman that you had known earlier? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And he wasn't the one you just saw very briefly and then disappeared, he was the one who you saw for a longer period of time. • A.: Yes. Yes. (25)
• Q.: In fact, this one Serb policeman was with you
• A.: Yes. • Q.: All right. So you were -- where did you go (5)from that little brick building in the last exhibit? Where did this policeman take you? • A.: We crossed a meadow, towards the crossroads. I don't know how many metres away exactly. • Q.: Where did you go? (10) • A.: When we got in front of this house, we found there four men in uniform who were sitting around a table lengthwise, and there was another table at right angles and we stood next to that table. To my left was the policeman I knew, and to my right were another two (15)policemen whom I did not know. MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness Exhibit 178, and could we put that on the ELMO. . JUDGE RIAD: Mr. McCloskey, I suggest that in five minutes we have a break. (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: That's fine. JUDGE RIAD: And we will resume at a quarter past. THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President, please. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. I'm sorry to the
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps, Mr. Petrusic, can we continue until 2.15? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Your Honour, Mr. President. Yes. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Can you point with the pointer again to the house where you were taken to the outside, where these (15)men were? • A.: Next to this big building [indicates], in front of this tree [indicates] • Q.: Do you remember those trees? • A.: Yes. Yes. (20) • Q.: You've always told us that you remember those two apple trees. Are those the two apple trees that you recall? • A.: Yes. Yes.
• Q.: Now, can you describe the men that questioned
(25)you, how many there were and what they were wearing.
• Q.: Let me stop you there. Before we get to this new policeman that you -- you know at least this (20)policeman's first name; is that right? • A.: It is the same one who took me to the small house and brought me from that small house to the people who were interrogating me.
• Q.: So it's the same guy that you've been talking
(25)about all along?
• Q.: Now, I want to ask you some more particular questions about the person that you said was sitting at this table that first asked you questions. Can you (5)describe what he was wearing? • A.: He was wearing a camouflage uniform. His sleeves were turned up. He had a moustache. And the other one, or rather the third one at the end of the table was grey-haired -- (10) • Q.: Let's just stay with this one guy first. • A.: Yes. • Q.: The first one with the moustache, what colour uniform was he wearing, camouflage uniform? • A.: It was the colour of camouflage uniforms worn (15)by their officers. • Q.: It wasn't blue. • A.: No, no. No, no. • Q.: It was a regular soldier's camouflage uniform. (20) • A.: Yes. All four were wearing this military camouflage uniform. • Q.: All four of the men that were at this table, that were participating in the interrogation, were all in military camouflage uniform, not blue. (25)
• A.: Yes. But the one at the head of the table
• Q.: Okay. The person at the head of the table, (5)he had a moustache; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What did he tell you about himself? • A.: He told us that he had been in command of the operation on Srebrenica in 1993, in the area of Kade (10)Voda and Osmace. And he told us how many shells they fired. They expected to find thousands dead, but they only found four soldiers dead in a bunker. • Q.: Did he tell you his nickname? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Can you tell us his nickname? • A.: Yes. He said, "You have heard on the Motorola the name Cica. That was me." • Q.: You said there was a grey-haired man at the other end of the table. Can you describe that person. (20) • A.: He was a little taller than this one. He was a little plumper. And I just remember the way he looked at us, as he was closest to us. He had grey hair. He was maybe over 50, a couple of years over 50, in my opinion. (25)
• Q.: About how tall?
(10) • Q.: How tall was, your best guess, the grey-haired fellow? • A.: Well, maybe 170, 180 centimetres. He was quite heavy. In his 50s; 55 maybe, in that age group. • Q.: Thank you. One last question before we (15)break. About what time did this occur, where these people were interrogating you? • A.: About -- between 7.00 and 9.00 in the morning. MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you, Your (20)Honour. This may be a good time to break, on your recommendation. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. We'll resume at twenty past one. Thank you. --- Recess taken at 12.53 p.m. (25)
--- On resuming at 1.24 p.m.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour. I just noticed the defendant coming in. • Q.: Witness S, we had just left off and you were (5)about to be taken from the place where you'd been interrogated by four people in camouflage army uniforms, and you were being taken by the police officer that you'd known. Where did he take you this time? (10)
• A.: Well, there's a detail that I forgot to tell
you. While I was being interrogated, they asked us
whether we drank alcoholic beverage and I said we did,
and he said to another policeman to bring us a glass.
Then he poured some alcohol from the bottle. I took
(15)the glass first and swallowed the alcohol, but I felt a
sort of shock going through me. I passed the glass on
to the other one, he took a sip, and then to the third
and he returned the glass back to me. I took another
sip, as much as I was able. I passed it around again.
(20)The next man just took a little bit and said he didn't
want any more, and so on. And I drank the whole of
that glass full of this alcohol myself.
And then the policeman took us off into
another house which was empty. It didn't have a door.
(25)We were on the ground floor level of that house, and
• Q.: Was this new man a Serb or a Muslim, this new arrival? (20)
• A.: He was also a Serb and he came and said these
four men should go downstairs, these other ones should
stay where they are. So we left the house by the
crossroads, we crossed over the road, and they took us
to a warehouse of some kind which was situated on the
(25)banks of the River Jadar.
MR. McCLOSKEY: If the witness could refer to Exhibit 178 again, which should be up there, and if we (10)could put that on the ELMO. • Q.: Now, do you see on this photograph, 178, the area where the warehouse was that you were taken to that day? And could you point to it if you see it, just the general area. (15)
• A.: You can't see the warehouse now. It was
destroyed. There was never a petrol pump here before
the war. He was here
[indicates] -- it was here (20) • Q.: All right. • A.: That was built on part of the area where the warehouse stood.
MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, he's pointing
to an area on the left-hand side of the photograph
(25)where you can just make out some big yellow bars which
• Q.: Now, you were taken to this very area by Mr. Ruez of the Office of the Prosecutor relatively recently, and you took him around to all these places, (5)didn't you? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What happened at this warehouse?
• A.: When we went into the warehouse, before the
war there was an agricultural chemist there, and the
(10)warehouse was 15 or 20 metres long, and you could buy
medicines for agricultural purposes. When we entered,
there were two rooms. One room actually was the
entrance to the warehouse itself.
So when I went into this smaller room, they
(15)started shouting at us, and
[redacted]
(20) • Q.: Let me stop you there for a second. Can you tell me -- I want to go back to the house where you were being beaten right before you got onto the bus. What were the people wearing that were beating you in that house? What kind of uniforms? (25)
• A.: They had camouflage military uniforms,
• Q.: I think you mentioned, or it was at least translated as a baton. Do you remember being hit by (5)anything that was like a baton, the kind that police carry, or was it just rifles? • A.: Well, they beat us with anything they could. He got hold of my hair and threw me down on the ground. My worst moment was when he stepped on my head (10)in his army boots and pressed me down against the concrete. They beat us with all kinds of things. • Q.: Can you recall seeing any baton, a billy club, a stick, anything like that? • A.: Yes. Yes. The one with the moustache would (15)come from time to time and I think he would go down there, underneath the warehouse, which is where there was a cellar of some kind, the cellar to this agricultural warehouse. He went down there. And I think that the people's clothes had been down there, (20)people who had undressed. They asked for our valuables, for our money, asked who had taken our money. So this man with a moustache would come from time to time. He would go downstairs and then come up again. (25)
• Q.: I just want to identify, if I could, what
• A.: I saw the stick when he was carrying it. It was about 60 or 70 centimetres long. I think it was (5)wooden. But they beat me most with rifle butts and the barrel, against my back, my head, and the spine. • Q.: When you got on the bus, how many Serb soldiers were on the bus? • A.: Four. (10) • Q.: What were they wearing? • A.: The same soldiers who were beating us, they were the same ones. On the front door was the one I knew, and another one, and the other two, the one with the moustache and another one, were at the back door. (15) • Q.: Do you recall if any of those four soldiers were armed with weapons while they were on the bus? • A.: Yes, they all had automatic rifles, with a folding or collapsible butt. MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could (20)direct the witness to Exhibit 176, which may be up there already.
• Q.: Now, if you could just take a look at that.
Do you recall looking at this map last night and
pointing out to a little area where the bus stopped,
(25)and do you see that area marked on this map that you
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you point out the little area where the bus stopped now with the pointer? (5)
• A.: It is this yellow dot
[indicates], on a large
bend. To the right there's a river and to the left
there's a parking area for one bus. But he stopped
where there was a widening of the road. He crossed
over to the other side of the road, and we got off
(10)then. And they lined us up next to the road and I was
thinking of jumping over the fence of the road, but (15) • Q.: Sorry, I just signalled for you to stop for a moment. Can you tell us how many Muslims got off that bus and were lined up there along the road, how many in number? • A.: There were the 12 and us four, which makes it (20)16, and two of them stayed behind in the house and nothing is known about what happened to them. • Q.: Including that person you described as a 15-year-old boy, he was with you outside the bus. • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: How many of the armed Serb soldiers were with
• A.: In front of the bus or in the bus? • Q.: Well, how many came to this spot with you? How many Serb soldiers came with you? I know four came (5)with the bus. Any more than those four? • A.: No, no more. Just the four of them. And the bus just stopped, we got off, the bus moved forward, and I think that it later went back. It stopped just for a moment for us to get off. (10) • Q.: Then tell us what happened to you and the group.
• A.: As I said, they lined us up against this
fence, but
[redacted], the man with the moustache, said, "Not
there. Let them come down." There was grass next to
(15)the road. We went downhill for some 15 or 20 metres,
and then they lined us up alongside the river, and he
told us that we should get to the river. I was
somewhere in the middle of that line, so I was third in
line towards the Jadar River. When we got there, we
(20)were lined up against the river bank. I was third from
the left. To my left was the man I knew; behind me, I
don't know how far, there was another one, two others
at the other side. And we waited for our lives to end
there, and we expected -- there was half a minute or a
(25)minute of silence, and just then the images of my
(25)
• Q.: Excuse me, Witness S. Let me interrupt you
MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness Exhibit 182. • Q.: Witness S, were you able to find the river (5)bank with Mr. Ruez this summer and actually show him the spot where you believed this to have occurred? • A.: We found -- though at first we couldn't find it, and then they told me it was lower down. I told them, it can't be lower down because the tank is on the (10)other side. We have to find it. And from that spot you can see the bend in the direction of Drinjaca. We went down to the river. They said, "It must be here." I said, "It can't be there." And then I recognised the path we took going down. But there is no widening of (15)the road there. We saw a tree had fallen. Nobody could have cut it, just its branches had been cut. So when the water is high, it carries away whatever there is. So I think it must be here [indicates] And from the other side of the road we saw that some water was (20)coming through. There are two big rocks which I recognised very well because I hit my head against one of them. • Q.: All right.
MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, the witness
(25)has pointed to the general rocky area by the bank of
• Q.: Now, you mentioned that you were wounded in the side; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And you bear the marks of those gunshots (10)today, do you not? • A.: Yes. • Q.: You were shot in the back by the troops, were you not, the back and in the side? • A.: He hit me in my hip from behind, and the (15)bullet passed right next to the bone and it cut through some tendons, so I couldn't walk properly. • Q.: We took a Polaroid photo of you today. I think that's upside down. Yes. Can you show us the entry wound, point that out for us? I know this isn't (20)the best photograph.
• A.: This is the entry wound. It was much larger
here
[indicates], the exit wound. And when I was
bandaging it, my whole fist could go inside. And my
veins could be seen, the ligaments. And I thought to
(25)myself if the bone had been fractured, then I won't be
MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, he pointed to a small area to the right side of the picture of a scar that he referred to as the entry wound, and then on the (5)left side of the picture, a much larger scarred area that's been referred to as the exit wound. • Q.: Witness S, in order to give you a chance so you can finish up today, I know that there's more to this story and that you survived a difficult hike (10)through the woods and weren't able to get out to Nezuk until the 16th of July. But at this point I'm going to stop my questions so the Defence counsel can ask questions, and then of course the Judge will ask questions. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions at this time, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Mr. Petrusic, would you like to start and then we can see if you can finish, or you can continue (20)tomorrow. You decide.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] I shall try,
Mr. President, to finish today, bearing in mind what I
have already notified you about, the medical treatment
for General Krstic, but in any event to spare the
(25)witness coming into the courtroom again.
• Q.: First of all, good afternoon, Witness S. Because of the protective measures, I can't address you by name. (5) • A.: I understand that.
• Q.:
[redacted]
• A.:
[redacted] • Q.: So you had both professional and private contacts with Serbs before the outbreak of hostilities, or rather the conflict in the municipality? (15) • A.: Yes, very good relations. • Q.: Can you tell us something about those relationships, from your own personal experience? • A.: I don't know which friends you're referring to, my friends or Serbs as a whole? (20) • Q.: I'm talking about -- MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm sorry to interrupt. If you can let the witness know about being too particular about friends and things, because otherwise it will identify him. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Thank you, my
• A.: I had very good relations with certain (5)individuals and with my neighbours. We hear one another even today, with some of them. But there are others whom I knew very well as a child. I better not talk about any details, how we knew each other. If we go into closed session, I could tell you about that. (10) • Q.: Witness S, can it be said that those relations at the global level between Serbs and Muslims in the area, until the outbreak of hostilities, were correct? • A.: Well, until up to a year before the actual (15)beginning of the war, I did have good relations. But many friends surprised me who used to be on very good terms with me. • Q.: So the cooling of relations on both sides occurred, as you say, about a year prior to the (20)beginning of the war.
• A.: As I say, a year before the war. Though I
still have friends that I communicate with, but after
everything I've gone through, how can you trust them,
and who can you trust? Just imagine a situation when
(25)you meet a man in the street every day, you say hello
• Q.: In Srebrenica, or rather the protected area of Srebrenica, was there any armed formation? (10) • A.: There was the Territorial Defence, and UNPROFOR -- there were people who had organised themselves in all the villages until UNPROFOR arrived. After UNPROFOR arrived, I don't know any more, I don't know that anything existed, but maybe -- there probably (15)was but I'm not familiar. I was no longer in the Territorial Defence. I was in civilian. I engaged in various business activities. • Q.: Are you aware of the column that was formed in Susnjari? And who led that column? (20) • A.: What do you mean who led it? Let me tell you, it was a situation where people had no choice. You have death on one side and on the other. And there was no organisation, it was just an attempt to save one's life, if possible. (25)
• Q.: You said that a part of the column was armed
• A.: They weren't really properly armed. They were just people who had weapons from before the war and those that found them during the war. You know (5)very well that we had conflicts with the Serbs over Srebrenica before UNPROFOR arrived. We know very well what happened in Bratunac. And what should we have done? To wait for the same fate to befall us as in Bratunac, close the stadium and then call out people -- (10) • Q.: Excuse me, Witness. That part of the column, did it have a military leader? • A.: Believe me, I am not aware of that. I was a civilian. I can't say what I don't know, but whatever I do know I will tell. (15) • Q.: When you were interviewed by these four officers, that conversation or interrogation, was it conducted in a correct manner? • A.: On their part, yes. While we were there, nobody beat us or touched us. They gave us something (20)to eat and to drink. I told you what happened at the end. • Q.: I really don't want to remind you about that. Somebody mentioned that you should have been exchanged. (25)
• A.: Yes. This young man of about 18 or 20, he
• Q.: Do you believe that somebody prevented him from carrying out this idea of an exchange? • A.: You mean somebody who would not allow us to be exchanged? I really don't think that he had the (10)power to do anything, in view of the other people I saw. He was a young man of 18 or 20. That is my opinion. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no further questions. (15)Witness S, thank you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you too. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, thank you very much. Mr. McCloskey, would you like to respond? (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one question. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: • Q.: Could you tell us what time the execution occurred by the banks of the Jadar River?
• A.: It was in the morning, between 9.00 and 11.00
(25)or 12.00. I don't know exactly because when this was
(5) • Q.: On July 13th. • A.: Yes. Yes.
MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private
session for one last question, for the same reason
we've been going into private session, Your Honour.
JUDGE RIAD: We are in open session now. (5) • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Witness S, I would like to ask you one question which you passed quickly. You said when you were interrogated by these four men in uniform, the policemen, you saw 12 buses coming with (10)the women and children. What happened to these 12 buses? Do you have an idea of where they took them? • A.: At that time those policemen who were wearing blue camouflage uniforms were not questioning us. But the four men who I assume were officers, military (15)officers, they gave us to eat and then they told us, "Turn around to face the road." We did and we saw these buses. They were not overcrowded, there were as many people as there were seats, and they told us, as I have already said, "You see how we treat your people (20)properly." And those buses went off towards Milici, Vlasenica, and on from there. We just saw them for a moment because we had to turn back to face them. JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know what happened to the buses, or to the people inside the buses. (25)
• A.: No. No.
• A.: They didn't have any insignia. There was (5)something in me, there was hope in me that I would survive all that, I had some strength of some sorts. But I didn't notice any insignia because their sleeves were rolled up, and one had even buttoned his sleeve up there. So there were no ranks or anything on their (10)chests, around the pockets or on the sleeves, as far as I could see. JUDGE RIAD: Now, apart from the questions that were asked of you, would you like to add anything? Is there something you would like to say (15)independently? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Regarding everything, or regarding just my statement and my own experiences? JUDGE RIAD: Regarding everything, and your (20)experience. It has to be relevant to what's happening in your part of the world.
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Well, I think
after all this, the most important thing is that I have
survived, though my health is poor. I have come here
(25)to tell the truth, and I thank the attorneys of the
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness S. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you too, Your Honour. (15) JUDGE RIAD: And now you can be taken out. Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: We do have some exhibits, Your Honour. We want to tender them. JUDGE RIAD: You want to tender some (20)exhibits? MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I'd like to tender some exhibits.
JUDGE RIAD: But you know that the accused
has to leave. Shall we allow him to leave and we
(25)continue?
JUDGE RIAD: Good. So we'll ask for the
accused to be taken away. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. McCloskey, you want a closed session or an open session? MR. McCLOSKEY: No, an open session. No problem. They are Exhibits 176, 177, 178, 182, and (10)183. I can describe them if counsel wishes but ... MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] We have no objection to the documents tendered. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. So please tender them in. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I would tender those, then. Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, do you have any exhibits to tender? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Not in (20)relation to this witness, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. I'd like to thank both the Prosecutor and the Defence counsel for this prompt day, trial day. We will resume tomorrow at 9.30. (25)
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
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