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/ Colormap • Page 6910 • {1/94} (1)Friday, 3 November 2000 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Good morning. I would like to greet the parties and all those contributing to our trial. Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: Good morning, Judge Riad, Judge Wald, my colleagues.
Good morning. I wanted to raise with the Court a correction in the record
that I thought was important to make now, and it relates to the testimony
(10)of General Krstic on 31st of October, 2000. In his testimony, my
colleague, Mr. McCloskey, asked General Krstic to read Prosecutor's
Exhibit 467B, which was a Bosnian language handwritten copy of an order,
and it -- what was read into the record was the following: "We wish to
inform you --" I'm sorry. What was translated was the following:
(15)"We wish to inform you that we are able to ensure the presence of
members of the command and representatives of the municipal authorities
for the official farewell for General Zivanovic, the outgoing commander of
the Drina Corps, on 23rd of June, 1995, at 1300 hours."
The word "outgoing" was not correctly translated for -- as General
(20)Krstic was reading the document. The correct translation of the word that
General Krstic read is "hitherto," and I want to insert -- bring Your
Honours' attention to that point. The head of the Language Service
Section, Maja Drazenovic-Carrieri, has reviewed the document again. She
has filed, at my request, a core addendum. She has filed that with the
(25)Registrar's Office on the 1st of November, 2000. In addition, I have
(5) JUDGE WALD: Is that 467 or 476? MR. HARMON: If I said "476," I misspoke. It's 467, 467B, and the English language version is 467A. And the translation that was submitted is the correct translation. Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Judge Riad, Judge Wald. With your leave, Judge Riad, we can continue now with the cross-examination of Witness DA. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Yes, please, Mr. Cayley.
MR. CAYLEY: Thank you.
WITNESS: WITNESS DA
[Resumed] JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness DA. Mr. Cayley, the Prosecutor, will continue asking questions. (20) MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: [Continued] • Q.: Good morning, Witness DA. • A.: Good morning.
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, I think perhaps the witness cannot hear
(25)us. Can you ensure that his headphones are on the right channel?
• A.: Yes. It's fine now. • Q.: Now, Witness, we left off yesterday speaking about the indictment against Mr. Karadzic and General Mladic. Now, I want to move ahead in (5)time and I want you to think about the 12th of July of 1995, when I think you arrived at the Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What time did you arrive at the Vlasenica headquarters? Would it be between 1700 and 1800 hours in the early evening? (10) • A.: Later, around 2000 hours.
• Q.: And I think when you arrived there, you stated that Colonel Jokic • A.: Colonel Jocic, and not Jokic. • Q.: Sorry. It's my pronunciation. And that was Colonel Predrag (15)Jocic? • A.: Yes. Yes.
• Q.: And I think I'm correct in saying that you also saw Major Pajcic • A.: Yes. Major Pajic, not Pajcic. (20) • Q.: And General Zivanovic? • A.: Yes, briefly. • Q.: Now, you were a member of the Drina Corps staff for a considerable period of time, and you knew all of the members of the staff while you were working there, didn't you? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: I didn't see him. • Q.: Colonel Slavko Ognjenovic, the Operations officer from the former (10)Bratunac Brigade? • A.: Ognjenovic. • Q.: Was he there on the evening of the 12th of July? • A.: I don't remember seeing Ognjenovic. • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, was he in the headquarters on (15)that evening? Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric, you will recall, was the assistant within the Intelligence Department of the Drina Corps staff. • A.: I know him. I didn't see him -- no, I don't remember whether I saw him. I told you the people I remember seeing, because I was there very briefly, I was in a hurry to go to the Press Centre to have a bath (20)because I was coming from the mountains, and it seems to me that I briefly saw the men and the names of the people I mentioned at the beginning; Jocic, Pajic, several soldiers from the Communications Centre, two of my associates from the Press Centre, and the Commander Zivanovic. That was it, as far as I can remember, but it was a long time ago. (25)
• Q.: Let me try and refresh your memory with some names. As you know,
(5) • A.: I did not see Pajo Golic. • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Mirko Petrovic -- I'm sorry, Lieutenant Mirko Petrovic? • A.: I didn't see Petrovic either. • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Radenko Jovicic? He was head of the Personnel (10)and Administrative Section. • A.: I didn't drop in at his office; I didn't see him. • Q.: Your boss, Colonel Cerovic, was he there? • A.: He was on sick leave at the time in Belgrade. • Q.: Colonel Acamovic, he was the Assistant Commander for Rear (15)Services, was he there on the 12th of July in the headquarters? • A.: They were on the floor above. I didn't go to see them so I don't know whether he was in the Command or not. • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic, who you'll recall was the Transportation officer, was he in the headquarters on that evening? (20) • A.: I didn't see him either. • Q.: Did you see Major Basevic, who was the Chief of Technical Services? Was he there on the 12th of July? • A.: All their offices were on the floor above so I didn't go there, I didn't have any contact with them. (25)
• Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Ljubo Sobot, he was the Chief of Rear Area
• A.: Sobot. I didn't see Sobot either. They were all on the floor above. • Q.: Bearing in mind, Witness, that people do move around within a (5)military headquarters and don't constantly stay in their office. Lieutenant Marijanovic, who worked for Colonel Cerovic, I think he's dead now but he worked within your section. • A.: Yes, he worked in the Legal Affairs Department. He was there. We did come across one another somewhere there. (10) • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Nedo Blagojevic, he was the Chief of Communications for the Drina Corps. Was he in on the 12th of July? • A.: I don't remember seeing Blagojevic. • Q.: Lieutenant, and I don't know the first name of this individual, either Gasevic or Gavric, he was the assistant to the administrative (15)officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jovicic. • A.: I know who you are referring to but I didn't see him. We didn't run into each other. • Q.: Was it Gavric or Gasevic? • A.: Gasevic. I don't remember his first name. He joined the Corps (20)later. I've forgotten it. • Q.: Colonel Ignjat Milanovic, was he in the headquarters on the 12th of July? You know him. • A.: I do know Milanovic. I didn't see him at the headquarters. • Q.: What was his job on the Staff; do you recall? (25)
• A.: Milanovic?
• A.: He was head of the Air Defence Service, I think it's called. • Q.: Do you recall seeing Major Petrovic, who was the Commander of the Military Police Battalion of the Drina Corps? (5) • A.: They were housed in a different building about 100 metres away from headquarters, and I didn't go there. • Q.: Was Major Ratko Tisma there? He was the Quartermaster. • A.: I didn't see Tisma either. • Q.: Colonel or Major Hendryk Jevicki, also working in the (10)Quartermaster Department, do you recall anybody of that name? • A.: Yes, I do know him. He worked in the Quartermaster Service. I didn't see him in our building. • Q.: Lastly, did you see a military police officer by the name of Teso Tesic? (15) • A.: No. The military police also was about 100 metres away from our building and I didn't go there. • Q.: Now, I think I'm right in saying that that evening you spent at the Corps in Vlasenica, you stayed at the Corps in Vlasenica; is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Whereabouts did you stay that night? • A.: In my room, where I would regularly spend the night; though I spent most of my time in the Press Centre premises which were not in the same building as the Corps Command. (25)
• Q.: And the room that you spent the night in was in the Corps
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Which floor was it on? Was it on the ground floor or first floor? • A.: On the first floor. (5) • Q.: Now, you mentioned that a number of these officers worked on the first floor. Did you see any of them at all when you spent the night there? Did you have any contact with anybody other than the people that you've spoken about? • A.: No. As it was late, I had a shower, prepared clean clothing (10)because I knew that, in the morning, I had to leave. I just exchanged a few words with my colleagues from the Press Centre, I called up my family -- we hadn't been in touch for some time -- and that was all. • Q.: Was the headquarters busy with work at that time? • A.: In my sector, no. (15) • Q.: The rest of the headquarters? • A.: I really didn't have any insight. As I said, I spent very little time there. I didn't notice any particular haste among the people working there. They were doing their regular job. • Q.: But you must have passed by the offices of these other staff (20)officers and noticed whether people were moving around inside these offices, whether people were coming out of offices. • A.: It was our custom not to move about too much around headquarters. • Q.: How long had you been away for from the Vlasenica headquarters?
• A.: I had been away for about ten days and more at the time. But
(25)anyway, I moved about frequently, so it was nothing unusual.
(5) • A.: Cerovic, who was my boss, was not there. General Zivanovic devoted very little time for his conversation with me. The only person I spoke to for a little longer was the late Marijanovic and my associates in the Press Centre. • Q.: Is it not customary within military headquarters for staff (10)officers to have contact with officers from other branches within the headquarters with whom they work? • A.: It is customary to engage in regular, normal conversations. But you must understand: I came late. People wanted to rest. And I too had my own plans, that is, to have a shower and change, to call up my family. (15)And time flies. • Q.: So in essence, other than the officers that you mentioned, you had absolutely no sight or contact with any of the 18-odd staff officers that I've mentioned from the headquarters on that evening? • A.: No. Only with the people I mentioned having seen there. (20) • Q.: Let's now move to the 13th of July. In the morning you met General Krstic. Whereabouts did you meet General Krstic that morning? • A.: In front of his office, in front of the office of the Chief of Staff. • Q.: Within the headquarters? (25)
• A.: Yes. In the building of the command.
• A.: First floor. • Q.: So you came out of the room in which you had been sleeping and went straight to General Krstic's office on the first floor? (5) • A.: Not the office, but the corridor in front of the office. It's about 50 metres away from my own office. • Q.: And nobody else, I assume, was out in the corridor; it was completely empty, apart from General Krstic? • A.: I don't remember. (10) • Q.: Who else was in the headquarters on that morning that you can recall? Was General Krstic there by himself in the headquarters? • A.: No. Jocic was there still there. He still hadn't handed over his duties to the duty officer. Major Pajic. I asked -- I saw the cooks, the communications people who were going up to the restaurant and the (15)communications centre. • Q.: So the only -- • A.: That was it. • Q.: The only people you saw were General Krstic; the paymaster, Major Pajic; the duty officer, Colonel Jokic [phoen]; and then the cooks and (20)some signallers. Those are the only people that you saw that morning? • A.: Jocic. Yes, yes. That would be it. Yes. Those were the people that I saw. Because I was there for a brief space of time. I was in a hurry to get to Sokolac on assignment. • Q.: Where was everybody else that morning, Witness? (25)
• A.: Probably on assignment.
• A.: I didn't see them if they were -- unless they were in their offices. But as I say, I didn't go to the upper floor, because that was where the Rear Services were and the Traffic and Communication Department (5)and the other services, up on the upper storey. • Q.: How many floors are there in the headquarters? • A.: Three or four. • Q.: Three or four? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: And on the evening of the 12th and the morning of the 13th, am I right in saying you were only on the ground floor and first floor; you limited yourself to those two floors? • A.: Yes. Yes. And in the neighbouring building, on the premises of the Press Centre. That was the area I moved around. It was an area of (15)some -- a circumference of 100 metres, let's say. • Q.: To get from each floor there were a set of stairs; is that correct? • A.: Yes. Usually there's a link by means of stairs. • Q.: And in order for you to get from the ground floor to the first (20)floor, you went up and down the stairs; is that right? • A.: Yes, normally, in the normal way, customary way. How else would I move around?
• Q.: And the people on the third and fourth floor that were in the
headquarters would also be using the staircase to go up and down the
(25)building; is that right?
• Q.: When you were on the staircase, did you see any members of the staff of the headquarters, apart from the three officers that you've mentioned? (5) • A.: I don't remember meeting anyone. It wasn't usual for us to move around. The commander asked us to do our work without moving around the corridors and hallways much, except during lunchtime and dinnertime, when we had to go to the restaurant. • Q.: But I'm right in saying, am I not, Witness, that a staff (10)headquarters works by the various bodies actually communicating with each other in the planning and execution of an operation? • A.: Of course. • Q.: So if the directive from the commander was that you had to stay in your office except at lunchtime or dinner, how did you communicate with (15)the other staff branches? • A.: Well, when the need arose, we would go over to each other, to finish off our tasks, assignments. • Q.: So it was normal within the headquarters for members of the staff to move around? (20) • A.: Why not? When there was the need to do so. • Q.: Now, as you know, this was a busy time for the headquarters, and I put it to you that it's simply inconceivable that you only saw three officers from the headquarters on the 12th and 13th of July.
• A.: But that's how it was. I spent there for a short -- I spent a
(25)short space of time there. I spent far longer in a telephone conversation
• Q.: On the 13th of July of 1995, was there any important news being discussed within the headquarters? (5) • A.: My associates in the Press Centre told me that the operation around Srebrenica was winding up, and they were excited, they were pleased. They asked me what had happened on the front lines, where I had been with the units that I led at Treskavica, and I told them about what I knew: the positions of my own unit, the attacks, the casualties, our (10)fighters who had succumbed, people we knew. They were interested in that, in hearing about that, and they helped me prepare some presents and some things that we were to take with us to Treskavica, some items. • Q.: Did you hear any news that morning that a column of able-bodied men, Muslims, had broken out of the enclave and were trying to make their (15)way towards Tuzla? • A.: My associates in the Press Centre told me that they had heard over the radio. And I asked them whether there was any official confirmation of that, and they said no, they didn't. And that's where it ended. To be quite frank, I didn't actually believe that it was all true, that (20)everything one heard over the radio was true, or the information by the Muslim radio. We didn't comment much about that topic.
• Q.: But that morning the Drina Corps headquarters received an order
from General Gvero, who was the assistant commander for moral and legal
affairs in the Main Staff, didn't they; they received an order in respect
(25)of this column of Muslims who were leaving Srebrenica?
(5) • Q.: But you worked in the same branch as him, Witness, didn't you? • A.: That's true, but General Gvero knows that I was at Treskavica and not Vlasenica. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 532. (10) • Q.: I'm sorry, Witness. The quality of the copy is not very good. Now, you can read it through briefly, but I'm principally interested in the first paragraph prior to the order. But if you wish, you can read it. Let me know when you're familiar with it. Now, you've read it and you see that news comes into the (15)headquarters that hardened criminals and cutthroats who will stop at nothing in order to avoid capture and escape to the Muslim-controlled territory are making their way out of the enclave. Now, you will agree with me that when this order, this news, reached the headquarters, people must have been pretty excited and had (20)been moving around quickly in order to do something about this; don't you agree with that?
• A.: I don't know when this order arrived. I see it for the first
time. And I maintain that in the headquarters and around the headquarters
there was not too much excitement at all. In fact, I didn't notice any
(25)particular commotion.
• A.: I'll repeat: My associates in the Press Centre conveyed the news (5)to me from Muslim radio, broadcast over Muslim radio, that several thousand able-bodied men were allegedly breaking through towards Kladanj. As I say, I didn't actually believe the truthfulness of that report because during those days everything -- practically everything that was happening on the battlefront was tendentiously reported on, and I (10)personally did not believe that it was true, under quotation marks. • Q.: But it's a rumour that, you would agree with me as a Staff officer at a military headquarters, people would check out and see whether or not it was true? • A.: Had I spent some time at the headquarters, I would quite certainly (15)have checked it out. But as I say, I was moving around and my priority was to execute the order by the Corps Commander and Chief of Staff. • Q.: Did you discuss the matter with General Krstic? • A.: No. No. • Q.: Do you know whether he knew about it at this time? Did he know (20)that the Muslim column had broken out? • A.: He didn't say anything to me. Our conversation focused on my duties and responsibilities in keeping up morale and combat-readiness of the brigade at Treskavica.
• Q.: So am I fair in saying that, at this point in time, the only
(25)information that you had about the events in Srebrenica was your knowledge
• A.: Yes, those are the only two pieces of information which I had about all the events. • Q.: And because you only saw three other officers in the headquarters, of course, naturally, you are unable to elicit any more information from (10)other Staff officers, from operational Staff officers? • A.: To tell you the truth, I didn't even ask Jocic. I saw him going about his own business, and in the Operations Centre, we spent little time there unless we were just on duty there. • Q.: Am I right in saying you'd also been told that the Srebrenica (15)operation was winding down, that it was complete, by the 13th of July? • A.: Well, the guys at the Press Centre told me that Srebrenica was over, and I was happy to hear that because I didn't know of any -- that is to say, there was not too much information coming in. I said that all the information went via the Press Centre of the Main Staff, and so these guys (20)here were not able to give me any more extensive information. As a man, as a human being, I was happy that, after the end of the operation, I could hope to see the units at Treskavica being reinforced, because I needed more men. Of course, this couldn't be done straight away. And so that's how that day ended. (25)
• Q.: But having these two pieces of information in your mind, were you
• A.: I was inquisitive, yes, but I didn't have time. I had my own assignments and duties which I had to see to. And anyway, upon returning (5)to the unit at Treskavica, via the Muslim television I learnt something more about those events. • Q.: Let's move ahead with the day of the 13th of July of 1995. You and General Krstic go to the military hospital together, and then I think you go on to visit your mother and then I think you go on to visit General (10)Krstic's relatives. Can you tell the Judges the time that you were engaged in visiting these soldiers in the hospital and in visiting your family/relatives and General Krstic's relatives? What time of the day in the morning did you leave and what time did those events come to an end? (15) • A.: I said yesterday that I went to Sokolac before General Krstic, immediately after my conversation with him in the corridor. We met at about 11.30 at the Romanija Hotel at Sokolac, and we went off to the Main Staff hospital -- • Q.: Witness, that evidence was clear. Just at what time of the day (20)did you, I think, leave either General Krstic's relatives or your relatives? • A.: Well, that's what I'm saying. We got to the hospital at about noon; we met the doctors there, the surgeons. We toured the wounded, the injured, and talked to them, and that lasted for about -- (25)
• Q.: This is clear from your evidence and I want to move ahead. What
• A.: About 1430, 1500 hours, in that interval. • Q.: What time did you get to your mother's house? (5) • A.: Around 1530. • Q.: And how long did you spend at your mother's house? • A.: We had lunch, we stayed around -- well, perhaps it might have been an hour and a half at the most. • Q.: How long did it take to get to General Krstic's relatives from (10)there? • A.: About 40 to 50 minutes. • Q.: So you got to General Krstic's relatives at about 6.00 in the evening. • A.: A little before 6.00, I would say. (15) • Q.: How long did you spend at General Krstic's relatives? • A.: We had a cup of coffee. Very short. Fifteen to twenty minutes. • Q.: And then you went on to the forward command post at Krivaca. • A.: Yes. • Q.: At what time did you arrive there? (20) • A.: About 1900 hours, before 7.00 p.m. • Q.: Was it just you and General Krstic in a single vehicle travelling together? Was there a driver? Was there an escort? • A.: The driver was there. • Q.: Who was the driver? Was it Krstic or Tosic? (25)
• A.: I think it was Tosic.
• A.: We talked more about my own position, that is to say, the position (5)of my unit at Treskavica. That was what we discussed more than the Srebrenica operation. • Q.: What did you say about Srebrenica? What did you talk about Srebrenica? Did you talk about the refugees being transported out of the enclave? Did you talk about the column of Muslim men that was escaping (10)towards Kladanj? • A.: We spoke about that column escaping towards Kladanj very little. General Krstic was more concerned about the organised transport of the population. He was interested in whether my guys had conveyed the appeal for collecting the transportation vehicles, and that's it, more or less. (15) • Q.: So General Krstic asked what help your unit could give in organising transport for the movement of the refugees from Potocari? • A.: My unit couldn't provide any assistance. We were very far away. Treskavica and Trnovo are 150 kilometres away, even 200 kilometres away from Srebrenica. And we had very specific assignments. I told you (20)yesterday, we were exposed to very fierce fire, we had high casualties -- • Q.: Witness, let me interrupt. You stated, and I may have misinterpreted what you said, that "General Krstic was interested in whether my guys had conveyed the appeal for collecting the transportation vehicles." When you're referring to "my guys," who do you mean? (25)
• A.: I mean the two soldiers in the Press Centre who forwarded to the
• Q.: So General Krstic was checking with you whether or not the Press Centre had sent out the request for vehicles to be sent to Potocari to move the population to Kladanj and on to Tuzla? (5) • A.: Krstic was not checking it out with me; he just asked me whether this appeal had been passed on to the local radio stations, which I confirmed. • Q.: Now, when you talked about the column with General Krstic, what did he say to you about that, when you briefly discussed that? (10) • A.: He told me, "Let them pass, just so that this can be ended as it should," and I fully agreed with him. • Q.: Now, in the vehicle at the time, what communications arrangements were there in order for General Krstic to keep in touch with his headquarters? (15) • A.: We had radio communication, an RUP. I can't remember the number, the model. R-U-P. • Q.: And this was how General Krstic kept in touch with the headquarters or that they could communicate with him whilst he made these social visits? (20) • A.: It was the standard method of communication whenever we were moving. However, I don't remember, at least not in my presence, that any communications were made. During those couple of hours, I don't remember that we communicated with anyone at all.
• Q.: Now, you say that General Krstic said to you about the Muslim
(25)columns, to let them pass. It was clear to you then, during that time,
• A.: It was clear from the conversation, yes. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, if you wish, perhaps it's an opportune (5)time to take a break. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Cayley. Today we will change a little bit our timetable, because we used to break every 45 minutes for General Krstic. Now General Krstic is resting. We can resume our procedure and stay till 10.30. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] If you are still -- MR. CAYLEY: No, no, no. I'm happy to keep moving ahead. • Q.: Now, you said in your evidence yesterday, Witness, that during the brief encounter that you had with General Zivanovic on the 12th of July, (15)that he insisted that you go back to Treskavica immediately. Do you recall saying that? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And I may have misunderstood your testimony, but my understanding was, when you had the conversation with General Krstic outside his office (20)in the headquarters, that he had said the same thing to you, that you should get back to Treskavica immediately. • A.: That I should return immediately. But that didn't mean that very moment; it meant during the day. It's not so nearby that you can come and go so easily. (25)
• Q.: When General Krstic suggested that you go on these social visits
• A.: Yes. I told him that in front of the office. (5) • Q.: And he still stated that you should go on this social excursion to your relatives and his relatives? • A.: General Krstic knew that I had had a tragedy in the family several months prior to this, that my father had died. He had every understanding for me. And that is why he insisted, since I was there anyway, that I (10)should visit my mother, who lived alone and who was normally very worried about me, which is quite understandable in view of the circumstances. • Q.: Let's move ahead in time to the evening of the 13th of July. You had dropped off General Krstic at his forward headquarters in Krivaca and you then returned to Vlasenica; is that right? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you go to the corps headquarters in Vlasenica? • A.: No. • Q.: Where did you go? • A.: Only to the press centre. I put in the vehicle, a Yugo 45, the (20)supplies, the foodstuffs, and set off immediately for my destination. • Q.: Can you explain to the Judges the distinction between Treskavica and Trnovo, or are they the same place? • A.: Trnovo is a small town at the foot of Mount Treskavica. It is otherwise one of the municipalities of Sarajevo. (25)
• Q.: Now, you said yesterday in your evidence that communication
(10) • A.: Yes, you're right. • Q.: Now, do you recall what the radio call sign was for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? Was it "Bedem"? • A.: Possibly, but it's a long time ago and there were many different names, so I really can't remember at this point in time. It could have (15)been "Bedem." I do not exclude the possibility. • Q.: "Bedem" at least rings a bell that it could have been the call sign for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? You said yes. • A.: Somewhere in my mind the name is there, but I don't know whether that was it at that time. I really don't know. I have no idea. (20) • Q.: Now, you said that, between the time that you went back to Trnovo and the 20th of July, that you had contacts with General Zivanovic on the radio. Now --
• A.: Not on the radio. It was not possible to communicate by radio at
such a distance. We could occasionally communicate by telephone and with
(25)a teletype device.
• A.: I can't remember. I remember one of the conversations when the commander of the unit, Colonel Veletic, was at the observation post. (5)Zivanovic called us, not me personally, but he asked for Veletic, requesting that we send the Chief of Staff of the 5th Brigade to his original unit because he was indispensable there to accomplish certain tasks probably. • Q.: What was his name? (10) • A.: And the colleague in question was Vlacic. • Q.: Is that the only conversation that you can recall? • A.: I think that was the only conversation I had on telephone, but Veletic was more frequently on the phone as the unit commander. You must understand, we were with the troops on the front, to keep up morale and (15)combat-readiness. • Q.: Now, on the telex machine, how many telexes do you recall coming from the headquarters at Vlasenica? • A.: I really can't remember the number, absolutely not. It was never important for me to remember the number. It was important to carry out (20)the assignment. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, we're actually now going to move to another area, so it may be an appropriate time, if you wish, to take a break.
JUDGE RIAD: Yes. We can take a break until a quarter to eleven.
(25)Thank you.
--- On resuming at 10.46 a.m. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Your Honours, the Defence wanted to (5)make a kind of objection or, rather, to raise an issue which we did not have occasion to raise during the proceedings so far, but the Defence feels it is important regarding future planning of time for witnesses. The Defence examined this witness, according to my records, for about 90 minutes; Mr. Cayley has been cross-examining him for about 90, 95 (10)minutes. I don't know how much longer he will need, but our understanding of the Rules is that the time for cross-examination should be roughly the same as the time devoted to the examination-in-chief. We just need instructions as to whether that Rule will be observed in the future so that we can plan the time for future witnesses, for the (15)days ahead. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. I quite share your opinion as far as time should be organised. We just should take into consideration that when you question the witness in the same language, apparently you can say more than when you (20)have to speak a different language, and so on. So we can give an allowance of a few minutes, perhaps. But apart from that, I think we should be very much careful -- you have a rebuttal, and you can have it after that. But I'll ask Mr. Cayley. What are your plans? (25)
MR. CAYLEY: Well, if I could comment, with your permission, Judge
JUDGE RIAD: Good. We'll grant you an hour. And you have the chance for a rebuttal afterwards. Thank you. Mr. Cayley, you can proceed when he comes. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad.
MR. CAYLEY: I think I'd make two points. As you know, Your Honour, we simply don't have access -- JUDGE WALD: I understand that. MR. CAYLEY: -- to many of these people, as we do in domestic (15)jurisdictions. JUDGE WALD: I understand that. MR. CAYLEY: Secondly, the Prosecution is normally in the position where we only have the Rule 65 summaries. I mean, I don't wish to raise that as well, but in this particular instance, that summary bore little (20)resemblance to what the witness actually said. I know, and I emphasise, that is not out of any policy of the Defence. That happened to them because they had difficulties in communicating with their witnesses. So I'm not suggesting it's anything to do with honesty. JUDGE WALD: Right. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: But nevertheless, that is why it is difficult.
(5) MR. CAYLEY: To the hour, I think, Your Honour. That's -- JUDGE WALD: To the hour. It might be useful at that point, maybe even for the Defence, if you have some notion, if you can share that with them or even with us, "I expect my cross-examination will be two hours," "three hours," et cetera. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Yes, certainly, we can do that, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Krystal, you have the floor. THE REGISTRAR: I just wanted to say, Mr. Cayley, when you spoke of Rule 89, it's actually Rule 90(H).
MR. CAYLEY: I stand corrected. You're quite right. I was
(15)looking at 90 bis. It is Rule 90. Thank you. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad. • Q.: Witness, could you please provide to the Judges the names of the other press officers who were working at the Drina Corps headquarters on (20)the 12th and 13th of July. • A.: Risto Motika, Mitrovic Igor. • Q.: Where does Risto Motika live now in Bosnia-Herzegovina? • A.: I really don't know. • Q.: And Mitrovic Igor, do you know where he lives? (25)
• A.: I think -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think he lives in Vlasenica.
(5) • A.: The soldiers were exhausted because they were constantly under fire. However, we insisted more, pursuant to the order of Colonel Veletic, on the replenishing of the unit with personnel rather than on the need for urgent rotation, because of the excess losses we were suffering. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit (10)811. • Q.: Now, the commander of your unit, Witness, was Colonel Stojan Veletic; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And I think the Chief of Staff, as you've already said, was (15)Lieutenant Colonel Ljubomir Vlacic? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, the content of this order I'm not particularly concerned with; it's just the title of your brigade. Now, am I right in saying that on the 7th -- I think it says on yours, actually, the 6th. There's a (20)mistake in the English translation. On the 6th of July, 1995, Stojan Veletic was the commander of your brigade? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And the name of that brigade was the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade? (25)
• A.: In my notes, it says the 5th, but I may be wrong.
• A.: I don't know. It was never so important to me. The important thing was the work that we did in the unit. It seems to me, as far as I (5)can recollect -- I'm not sure -- that it was indeed the 5th Podrinje, but I may be wrong. • Q.: So you were a staff officer in a brigade which you can't clearly recollect the name of that brigade? • A.: Whether it was the 4th or the 5th doesn't really matter. (10) • Q.: What does it say at the top of this order? Can you read out to the Judges what it says, the name of the unit? • A.: "All members of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade are not allowed to move -- are banned from moving or loitering in the streets of Trnovo between 6.00 p.m. and 10.00 p.m. without a special order or (15)permission from the Superior Command." • Q.: Let me interrupt you, because I think I perhaps gave you the wrong instructions. If you go to the top of the order where it says "Command," can you read out that line? • A.: The Command of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade. (20) • Q.: And indeed, it's signed by the brigade commander, Stojan Veletic, at the bottom, isn't it? • A.: Yes. Yes. Then it was probably the 4th.
• Q.: So you would agree with me that the name of the unit you were in
was not the Podrinje Brigade but was, in fact, the 4th Drinski Light
(25)Infantry Brigade?
• Q.: Now, you've already stated in evidence to another question that I asked you that Ljubomir Vlacic was a member of the Birac Brigade. Do you recall that? (5) • A.: Yes. I said that this brigade -- we now know officially that it was the 4th Drina Brigade -- was formed as a provisional unit, that is, a unit with a provisional composition consisting of elements of the Drina Corps and brigades from Sekovici; and the Chief of Staff, Mr. Vlacic, was named the Chief of Staff of the newly-formed unit. (10) • Q.: Now, you stated in evidence that you recall a time after the 13th of July, 1995 when Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic left the Drina Brigade and went back to his own unit. Do you remember that time? • A.: I do remember. • Q.: Do you remember when that was? (15) • A.: I don't remember the exact date, but I think -- I think it was sometime around the 20th of July. I cannot recollect the exact date, but I know I have it noted down in my diary for sure. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 364, volume 2. It's an intercept from the 17th of July. (20)
• Q.: Now, Witness, I'm going to show you the transcript of an
intercepted radio communication, and this is an intercept of a VRS radio
communication. And I'm going to read it out. You can look at the Serbian
version of it. It's tab 3. Now, Witness, if you recall, you do recollect
that "bedem" was the call sign for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and let me
(25)read it out to you. It is a conversation that took place on the 17th of
(X.:) Hello, is that bedem? (B.:) Yes. (5) (X.:) Listen Bedem, I need to talk to Colonel Veletic. (B.:) I hear that for the first time, believe me. (K.:) Bedem, Zlatar 01/ code name/ here, do you hear me? Over. (B.:) Bedem speaking, go ahead. (K.:) Give me Colonel Veletic from your IKM 3/forward command (10)post/. (B.:) Hold on a moment. (K.:) Krstic here. (B.:) Colonel Veletic is on the line, he can hear you. (K.:) I can't hear him. Listen Bedem. (15) (B.:) Do you want me to pass it on to him? (K.:) Listen Bedem. General Krstic is calling. (B.:) Yes? (K.:) Tell Veletic I ordered that Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic urgently return to the unit. (20) (B.:) Veletic says it's already been taken care of. (K.:) It's been taken care of? (B.:) Yes. (K.:) So, he has to report urgently to the unit, he must be there by 1300 hours. (25)
(B.:) He says everything's all right and it's already been taken
(K.:) Has he left? Ask him. (B.:) He's left already. (K.:) Excellent. OK. (5) (B.:) Take care, goodbye." Now, Witness, you would agree with me that the contents of this intercept deal with the evidence that you've already given concerning the departure of Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic from the headquarters in Trnovo back to his unit in Birac? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And you would also agree with me that an individual by the name of Krstic is giving the orders to Colonel Veletic that Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic should return to his unit. • A.: I was not present during this conversation. Possibly those are (15)the -- it may have taken place that way -- • Q.: But you would agree that -- • A.: -- in that ratio. • Q.: But you would agree with me that the contents of this radio communication indicate that it was Krstic having a conversation with (20)Lieutenant Colonel -- with, I'm sorry, Colonel Veletic rather than General Zivanovic, based on this piece of paper in front of you.
• A.: I don't know who Colonel Veletic was talking to. And I said that
I had a conversation of similar contents with General Zivanovic who asked
Veletic to go to his original unit. That's all I can say with respect to
(25)this document.
• A.: The name rings a bell, but I can't quite seem to remember his formation or establishment. You know, many people with many names went by during those times. (5) MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 808, please. • Q.: Now, you see, Witness, that this is another order of the Command of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade; it's also signed by Colonel Stojan Veletic, Brigade Commander. Could you read out for the Judges (10)paragraph 4 of that order? I'm sorry, once you've had an opportunity to read it. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you read out paragraph 4? • A.: "To all those who, at this decisive moment of our struggle, are (15)counter to the aims to the struggle and do not carry out assigned tasks, the Command of the SRK shall take legal measures in accordance with the state of war declared in this territory against all those who, at this decisive moment of our struggle ..." et cetera. That is paragraph 4. • Q.: Thank you, Witness. Now, you're aware that the SRK was the (20)Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. • A.: Yes.
• Q.: And I'm right in saying that if the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was
presented as the higher formation taking legal measures against members of
the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade, that was your Superior Command
(25)whilst you were in Trnovo; is that right?
• Q.: So the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had operational control over your (5)unit and, in fact, had disciplinary authority over the soldiers in your unit, as far as you can remember. • A.: At that moment, yes. • Q.: Now, in respect of these legal measures being taken against individuals who counter the aims of the Serbian struggle, are you aware of (10)Serbs outside the Srebrenica enclave being prosecuted by the Serb authorities for assisting able-bodied Muslim men in escaping towards Tuzla? Are you aware of any such cases? • A.: No. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, if we could for a moment move into closed (15)session because we have two documents which mention the witness by name, and I'm going to need to read out portions of the document and that will identify him to the public. So if I can make an application for closed session, probably for about 10 to 15 minutes. JUDGE RIAD: I assume you are agreeable, Mr. Visnjic? It's in the (20)interest of the witness. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, it can be a private session, so that just the system is switched off. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar, private session.
MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: I will read this intercept out to the Court. I'm not going to (15)read all of it, I'm going to read approximately half of it, although Your Honours have seen this, and indeed I think we've read it out to you before. The conversation is between Colonel Cerovic and an individual named Vinko. Now, Colonel Cerovic is the Assistant Commander for Morale, (20)Legal, and Religious Affairs within the Drina Corps; is that right, Witness? You have to make an audible response. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Do you know of anybody within the Drina Corps called Vinko? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Who do you know? A senior officer called Vinko.
• Q.: If I read out the intercept: (C.:) Colonel Cerovic wants to talk to him. : OK. (5) (C.:) Hello. (V.:) Yes. (C.:) Good morning Vinko. (V.:) Good morning. (C.:) How are you? (10) (V.:) Well, I'm running around since last night. We (went in?) again. (C.:) Where? (V.:) They are up there at Crni Vrh, over there at Potocani, Planinci, the part towards Baljkovica. (15) (C.:) Uh-huh. You mean the ones who are coming out on this side. Is that right? (V.:) Yes, from there and all of them are rushing over here to us. (C.:) You rushed off first. Rushed off. (20) (V.:) I really did, quite right. Well, yesterday we liquidated some 20-odd. (C.:) Uh-huh. Uh-huh. (V.:) And this morning we started chasing about 150 of them over there. There are in some kind of encirclement. (25)
(C.:) And in which area are they surrounded?
(C.:) That means in the areas of Planinci and Baljkovica. (V.:) Yes. (C.:) You are good ... Vinko. (5) (V.:) Yes. (C.:) What's your plan for tomorrow for shift replacement at Trnovo. (V.:) I don't have a shift for Trnovo. (C.:) Well, I know that was the order, that you've sent a (10)report, however, this Eskic has just called me from up there and said that he was yesterday somewhere at your place and that he heard you are doing a shift rotation. (V.:) No. I did a rotation of shift at Nisici. (C.:) I'm telling you, the report he sent - there's not way it (15)can be done ... That's Krstic's order, there are no shift rotations until further notice. (V.:) It would be best if we transfer our complete Corps to the SRK/Sarajevo-Romanija Corps/." Now, I'm not going to read the rest of this document out. But you (20)would agree with me, Witness, that the diary entry in the log, the war log, that I showed you, the 19th of July, in which the brigade command gives the order or expresses to the brigade that an order has been given for no shift rotations is, in fact, referring to this order, isn't it, Krstic's order that there be no shift rotations until further notice. (25)
• A.: I do not see this as an order. This is a conversation by radio or
• Q.: But you would agree with me that Cerovic, in fact, states: "That's Krstic's order, there are no shift rotations until further notice." That is what Cerovic said in this intercept. • A.: Yes, normally, because not only was there a problem now in our (10)area of responsibility, but also in Western Bosnia. • Q.: And that order for no shift rotation is the order that's referred to in the diary entry that we looked at a moment ago of the 19th of July of 1995. • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Now, Witness, when you originally spoke with Defence counsel about the evidence that you were going to give today, did you tell Mr. Petrusic or Mr. Visnjic that you had, in fact, stayed at the headquarters of the Drina Corps from the 13th to the 16th of July and that you were then sent to the front line at Treskavica? (20) • A.: No. • Q.: You didn't say that? • A.: You see, I told you I kept a diary throughout the war for literary reasons, not for any reasons linked to this, and I have the precise data there. So I abide by what I have already said. (25)
• Q.: So when you told Mr. Petrusic or Mr. Visnjic that you had, in
• A.: Yes, because after all, that was so many years ago. One forgets a lot of things. (5) • Q.: When you checked your diary, you, in fact, realised that you had left on the 13th of July, that you'd left for Trnovo on the 13th of July. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, lastly and very briefly, Witness, you are aware of the allegations being made by the Prosecutor in this case, and all I wish to (10)know from you is when you found out about information which is now public, which is now known by the entire world. When did you hear that upwards of 7.500 Muslim men had been executed within the Drina Corps' area of responsibility? When did you hear about that information? (15) • A.: I heard the first information, where the numbers were much higher, from the Muslim media. I said that I didn't believe it, knowing full well what their propaganda was like. Regarding this particular case, I learnt after the arrest of General Krstic and his transportation here to The Hague, and I learnt this (20)from the media, not from any official document, because I was no longer in the Staff or at the source of any information of this kind.
• Q.: So you only heard about this mass murder taking place very close
to where you worked and lived when General Krstic was arrested and brought
to The Hague. Prior to that, you had absolutely no conversations with any
(25)other Serbs or no access to any kind of reliable information about these
• A.: Correct. I didn't have any reliable information. I did speak to the soldiers who took part in the operation. When I asked them whether it was true, what was being carried by the media, not one of them could tell (5)me whether it was true. Why? Because all of them were on the move and all of them denied these figures, claiming that along the line of movement, they would come across some -- a few bodies of people who had been killed in conflict. As to the numbers, I really have no knowledge that 7.000 sparrows (10)had died - it would have been visible - not to mention people, so I don't know. • Q.: Now, you mentioned towards the end of your evidence a village within the area of the Romanija Brigade where I think you said that Muslims lived quite happily; I think the village of Vrbare. Do you recall (15)your evidence on that? The inhabitants of the village of Vrbare, the Muslim inhabitants, stayed on throughout the war. I think you said that you were given orders by General Krstic to go and visit these people. Do you recall that evidence? • A.: Yes, I did, indeed. I didn't get an order once but certainly more (20)than ten times to go and tour those villages with Muslim populations. • Q.: When did you stop touring those villages, the village in particular of Vrbare?
• A.: I always went to both Vrbare and Burati, but not so frequently
when I was transferred to the Corps Command. At the end of the war, I
(25)left those areas. I know that all those people have survived and that
• Q.: So you are not aware that in August of 1994 masked men began assaulting the village of Vrbare, and indeed a number, significant number, of the villagers in October of 1994 ended up in the Kula prison? You're (5)not aware of that fact at all? • A.: I'm not aware of it, and I sincerely regret it, if that is so, because these were people that I protected. I devoted so much attention to them that I am really sorry if that is what happened. MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, I have no further questions for the (10)witness. Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Cayley. Then it's time, perhaps, for a break of 45 minutes. We'll resume at 12.45. Thank you. --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m. (15) --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m. JUDGE RIAD: Would you like to resume? MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Judge Riad. I've now finished my cross-examination. I think my learned friend Mr. Visnjic will have some re-examination, but I just wanted to raise two matters with the Court. (20)First of all, I wondered what the timing was for the rest of the afternoon. JUDGE RIAD: Now, we have to set that right in a way. I think we can have now a session till a quarter to two, a quarter-of-an-hour break, twenty-minutes break, and then resume till three. (25)
MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad. And the second point was that
JUDGE RIAD: That's what you applied. MR. CAYLEY: That is what was applied to the Prosecution. I was just simply -- because I know General Krstic has been testifying for a (10)number of weeks, and I just wanted to state publicly that that was the understanding of the Defence, that they would have no contact with the witness -- with subsequent witnesses once they started testifying. JUDGE RIAD: Once they start. MR. CAYLEY: Yes. (15) JUDGE RIAD: But the one who is here today -- MR. CAYLEY: Well, I -- JUDGE RIAD: If he doesn't come today, they can still contact him till Monday? MR. CAYLEY: No, Your Honour. Essentially, what I'm saying is (20)this: Once a witness has started giving evidence in the courtroom, counsel will not have any contact with that witness. Obviously, prior to them giving their evidence, they can. I assume that's the Rule that's been applied, and indeed Mr. Visnjic is nodding his head.
JUDGE RIAD: We all assume so.
(25)Mr. Petrusic.
MR. CAYLEY: Sorry. Mr. Petrusic's response is as if I was accusing him, and I wasn't at all. I know, Mr. Petrusic, that you've had no contact. I just simply wanted to remind the Court that that was what we had agreed, because General Krstic had been testifying for so long. (10) JUDGE RIAD: The agreement is respected. But then there is another question for the next witness. Mr. Petrusic, would you like to, if we have time, to have the second witness today, or because that will deprive you of any contact ... MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] That is precisely the issue that we (15)wanted to take up with the Prosecution, depending on how long their examination will last, and again depending on the questions by the Judges for this witness. The next witness that will be coming will not be examined for more than 45 to 50 minutes by the Defence, so I don't know how long -- but I don't know how long the Prosecution plans to examine (20)that witness. And if we don't succeed by the end of the working day today, the Defence counsel would reserve the right to start off with an examination of the witness on Monday.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. But my question went further.
Are you in need still to have contact with the witness so that we'll not
(25)start before Monday, in the light of Mr. Cayley's reminder that you can
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Your Honour, we shall respect the Rule with respect to the witness and no contacts with the witness if testimony goes ahead. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. JUDGE WALD: Can I just clarify one thing? Do you want -- suppose we're through here in about an hour or less. I don't know how long your redirect is, but suppose we're through here in an hour or less. Do you want to begin the second witness today or would you rather wait until (10)Monday? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] We would rather get through the witness today, on condition, of course, that the Prosecution is able to finish the cross-examination of the witness that is coming next. JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry. I still can't get the right answer that (15)I'm looking for. If we start on the second witness toward -- say in another hour or something like -- but we can't get all the way through the witness and the cross-examination today, would you rather not begin at all or go as far as we can go?
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Well, you're putting me in a
(20)difficult position now. I have -- I fully respect the working hours of
this Tribunal, of course, and we're ready to go ahead. But if the Trial
Chamber has any obligations or our learned colleagues from the Prosecution
do, then we would be ready to begin with that witness on Monday. But may
I leave the decision to you, Your Honours? Perhaps I haven't been
(25)sufficiently clear.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] One hour is an hour which I don't think the Court will find too taxing, and we don't want to extend working hours, of course, so this is a bit of a tricky situation. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, can I frame the question differently? Is there any emergency for the witness to go back before the weekend? We can make -- you can arrange perhaps -- you can ask that. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No. No. JUDGE RIAD: Good. So proceed normally. Thank you very much. (10)You are finished? MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, do you have anything, or Mr. Visnjic? You would like to go to rebuttal? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, in the spirit of this (15)discussion, the Defence does not have any additional questions for this witness.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
Now, Judge Wald, would you like -- (20) JUDGE RIAD: Judge Wald. JUDGE WALD: I just have two very brief questions, Witness DA. You testified that from the time that you left the Vlasenica headquarters on the 14th until I think you said around the 20th, you would still get communications of some sort from General Zivanovic. (25)
• A.: Yes.
(5) • A.: You said Mr. Zivanovic, how long he was a General. He's still a General today. JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry. How long General Zivanovic remained as commander of the Drina Corps. When you were getting communications from him all the way up to the 20th, did you see any change in his status (10)during that period? That's the first question. The second is: When did you learn of General Krstic's successorship? • A.: For as long as we received messages at Treskavica signed by General Zivanovic, for us he was the Corps Commander, for as long as he signed everything. The first message that we received with the signature (15)of General Krstic, and that was sometime around the 20th -- I don't remember the exact date, whether it was a day or two before or after that date. So we received a message signed by the Corps Commander, General Krstic. On that same day, we sent out a congratulations message for his appointment as commander to Commander Krstic on behalf of the fighters of (20)the 4th Drina Brigade and in the name of the command of that unit as well, the commanding staff.
JUDGE WALD: So you do -- or do you remember receiving
communications from General Zivanovic which were either labelled or on
their face were communications he was making as the chief of the -- as the
(25)commander of the Drina Corps right up until the 20th? Do you remember
• A.: In the latter days of that period, that is to say, sometime around the 20th, we received messages by teletype where Zivanovic was interested (5)in the state of affairs as regards morale and the combat-readiness of our unit, and they were still signed, "Corps Commander, General Zivanovic." JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second last question is: When later on you did learn of the allegations, I'll use that word for here, the allegations of the mass executions of the Srebrenica column, and also in some cases of (10)the refugees, and according to your own testimony recently, you knew that the Drina Corps had been engaged during this period in mopping-up operations or in trying to find and capture the columns, what was your reaction at that point? I mean, what did you think when you put those two things together? (15)
• A.: First of all, Your Honour, I was not able to believe that our
forces could carry out an assignment of that kind, because I knew that
perhaps just 1.500 fighters could be engaged in that operation. I
wondered how these people managed, with an enemy that was 15 times
stronger and well-armed, how they managed to overcome such an enemy, and I
(20)was more prone to believe, as I was not on the terrain itself, that
everything had taken place on the basis of an agreement of some kind,
whatever you like to call it.
When you ask me when I learnt of the sufferings of that column, I
said that the first information reached us from the Muslim information
(25)media, and those figures were really exaggerated, almost to the extent
JUDGE WALD: But what about later on? Even after the events were mostly over and you learned that, in fact, it appeared that these massacres/executions had taken place - had taken place - what was your (5)reaction then? I know you have great honour, respect, and perhaps love for the Drina Corps, but on the point of learning that these things, there was strong evidence they had actually happened, and you had not been on the terrain but you'd been in the area and you knew many of the personalities (10)involved, what was your feeling/reaction? • A.: Not even then, not even at this moment am I able to believe it all. I am first and foremost a humanist by vocation and choice, and quite simply because of those people and because of the honourable officers of the Drina Corps, I do not wish to believe it, and I cannot believe it. (15) JUDGE WALD: So you do not believe it at present? You do not believe it at present? THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge. JUDGE WALD: That's the wrong one. Sorry. • A.: I said that I don't wish to believe it, neither can I, being who I (20)am, the personality that I am, can I believe all that. If it truly did happen, then I am profoundly sorry because I spent the whole war working to save people. I indicated the need to coexist, cohabit, to love one another, love man, and that is my life-long option, generally.
JUDGE WALD: I'm sure we all share that, except at times reality
(25)intrudes upon some of our desires. But if those were your feelings, thank
THE WITNESS: [Int.] You're welcome, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Judge Wald. Witness DA, good afternoon again. (5) • A.: Good afternoon, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: I would like to understand a few things from you. The first thing concerns your competence/jurisdiction. You were the Assistant Commander for Morale, Religious, and Legal Affairs in the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, and in fact, apparently, you took action (10)against one of your officers, Major Suka, because he led the units of the Palija Battalion into the Redjani Gorge where about 60 men were killed. So you were taking action against officers who committed grave violations. Did you take any action, you or your department, concerning the (15)violation of human rights or war crimes at any moment?
• A.: I said that as against Major Suka action was taken, and it is
still ongoing; the legal proceedings have still not been concluded. All
that happened at the beginning of the war operations and immediately
before General Krstic came to the 2nd Romanija Brigade.
(20)If you're asking me whether we took action of any kind, took steps
of any kind, with respect to the events that are topical here, that are
being discussed here, then I should like to inform Your Honours that at
the beginning of August, upon my return from my assignment at Treskavica,
at the request of the civilian authorities from the Corps Command,
(25)following permission from General Krstic, the Commander, I went to my work
JUDGE RIAD: You also were in very -- I believe, in friendly contact with General Krstic. Did he mention to you that he ordered any investigation or any action concerning, at any moment, violations of human (15)rights or war crimes? • A.: After my departure to take up my duties, I rarely saw General Krstic. Perhaps we had a little more time on one occasion to talk and to exchange information about each other's families and what the future held for us in peacetime, what we were to do in peacetime. The most important (20)thing for me was to forget the war; I am trying to wipe it out of my recollections as soon as possible.
JUDGE RIAD: Now, there was some kind of, what can I say,
contradiction between your going with General Blaskic on this -- with
Krstic on this social errand and the order you received from General
(25)Zivanovic on the 12th of July to return to your unit, because if I gather
• A.: The Corps Commander, General Zivanovic, did not insist that I (5)return that very same moment to my original unit, but he did not allow me to stay for several days either. He was reasonable and understood my need to return the next day to take up my assignments; the Chief of Staff, General Krstic, had a complete understanding of that too. JUDGE RIAD: But in the army, I think orders are orders. I mean, (10)when you are ordered to return to your unit, either Zivanovic was in power, either he had authority, or he didn't. So at that date, were the orders of Zivanovic, more or less, weaker than the orders of General Krstic or, let's say, inexistent? • A.: Your Honour, no. Subordination was respected fully to the end (15)where we come from. General Zivanovic was the Corps Commander, but he didn't write me a letter with an order; he didn't issue a written order or an oral order. But as human beings, we reached an agreement that I should return to my unit the following day. JUDGE RIAD: How long did this errand last, your social and family (20)visits? • A.: My family or the visit with General Krstic's family? JUDGE RIAD: Your being with General Krstic off and on.
• A.: We visited the wounded and stayed there for about two hours; then
we spent about an hour and a half with my mother and perhaps half an hour
(25)or a little longer with his relatives.
• A.: Yes, to a great extent. There was a lot of combat activity in the (5)Treskavica area, and very frequently the telephone communications were down. We had almost exclusively to rely upon the information media of the Bosnian Muslims and, to an extent, Serbian radio, for as much as it could be heard in those regions, because it wasn't strong enough. The transmitters weren't strong enough to relay it always. (10) JUDGE RIAD: And you gave no credit to the information coming from the Muslim media? When you said that you knew from them about the massacres, about mass murder, and so on, would you take that as a lie, or you would give it consideration and check it, you and the whole ... • A.: I took it to be untruths, learning from the Markale experience, (15)and many others as well. Therefore, I had reason not to believe. JUDGE RIAD: But the word was spread; everybody knew. Whether it's wrong or right, the information passed, wherever it's coming from. • A.: In the Serbian language, rumours, I mean something that has not been checked out and established as truth, and that is how we took it. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Now, speaking about information, and you mentioned that the soldiers were furious because they knew about the -- what you called the Christmas massacre, and other things there. And who spread the word and who really -- in your opinion, where did they get this information from? (25)
• A.: I don't think you understood me. I spoke about the massacre that
JUDGE RIAD: Now, I just wanted to know: To keep the morale of -- because you were apparently also commander for morale. To keep the morale high and the desire to fight strong, was there some kind of (10)propaganda telling the people how their enemy -- what their enemy did and how they should take revenge? • A.: No. We cautioned the fighters exclusively of the need to hold the front lines in the Treskavica and Trnovo area, and there was no kind of propaganda whatsoever. We did not spread any kind of propaganda, nor was (15)there any need to do so. We pointed out to them the fact that their co-fighters from the units were doing their best to do -- to liberate Srebrenica even without them, and although many of them had a fervent wish to be down there at the time. Of course, they were concerned and worried about their families and their houses, because the Muslim forces were (20)moving around in the area, in precisely that area.
JUDGE RIAD: I think my last question: You mentioned that General
Krstic said once, concerning the column, the Muslim column, "Let them
pass ..." I'm quoting your words, "Let them pass so that it could end as
it should," the Muslim column breaking out of the enclave towards
(25)Kladanj. When he said, "Let them pass," he is a general. Did such an
• A.: Your Honour, a different order from the distinguished officer I could not have expected, and this is the first time that I'm hearing that kind of formulation, but where the officer could say nothing else but to (5)let the column pass and everything to pass, not only the column. JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry. I didn't exactly understand. When he said, "Let them pass," did they pass? • A.: I don't know. I was not in the area. I was not in the area. I don't know. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Whom was he saying that to? Was it to you? • A.: No. There was no need for him to say it to me. JUDGE RIAD: Well, you said that he said, "Let them pass so that it could end as it should." I would like to know more details about -- if you said it, I quoted it. (15) THE INTERPRETER: There was no audible response from the witness. We didn't hear. • A.: I'm a little mixed up now. As I say, I wasn't in the area when those events took place. There was no movement of columns in the sector where I was. As you have read out, it referred to the sector of the zone (20)of responsibility of the Corps. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. THE WITNESS: [Int.] You're welcome. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Cayley, anything to add? MR. CAYLEY: Just some exhibits, Judge Riad. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: But you can liberate our witness?
JUDGE RIAD: Good. MR. CAYLEY: The first exhibit is 804, A and B, which is actually (5)the same as the previous exhibit, which was Exhibit 402/3, tab 7. So that's an exhibit that's previously been admitted that has been renumbered, and that's now renumbered as 804A and B, the English and the original Serbian version. Then Exhibit 805, which is the Mladic and Karadzic indictment. (10)Then Exhibit 811, A and B, which is the Drinski Brigade order. 808, A and B, another Drinski Brigade order. And then 815, which -- A and B, the original and the English version. That's the war log from the Zvornik Battalion of the Drinski Brigade. And then 810, A and B, which is the other battle diary from the Drinski Brigade. (15)I would apply for 815 and 810 to be placed under seal because the -- both of those documents contain reference to the witness by name, and if they are under seal, that essentially ensures that his identity is not revealed. JUDGE RIAD: Defence counsel, do you have any comment? (20) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President. JUDGE RIAD: So let it be. I'd like to thank you, Witness DA, and wish you a safe trip back home.
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Thank you too. It was an honour for
(25)me to be here.
JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Your Honour, the Defence has a new witness. So the usher is not here for the moment. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Do you ask for any special measures? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No. No.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. We'll wait for the usher to return. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Visnjic. (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Your Honour, the General has just informed me that he is suffering some pains, so if we could make a brief break or if he could be allowed to leave the courtroom briefly. JUDGE RIAD: You must have heard me speak to Judge Wald. I was telling her the same thing. I was suggesting that we have a small break (15)and General Krstic can rest a little bit. But it will be a quarter of an hour, and then we'll have no break till we finish your witness. Is that all right with you? Good. --- Recess taken at 1.30 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The Defence would like to ask the usher to be kind enough to bring in the witness.
JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Usher, thank you. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness. You will be asked now to
THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: ZELJKO BOROVCANIN JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. You can sit down. The witness is yours. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Your Honours, my learned friends of the Prosecution, we have before us Zeljko Borovcanin, Defence witness. (10) • EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: I would like Mr. Borovcanin to tell us his name for the record, rather, his surname, to spell it out, as has been done in the proceedings so far. • A.: B-O-R-O-V-C-A-N-I-N. (15) • Q.: Mr. Borovcanin, will you tell us briefly when and where you were born, where you lived, your short biography? • A.: I was born on the 19th of April in 1958, village of Zunovi, Sokolac municipality. I completed four years of primary school in my native village. From there I went to Sarajevo, to Pofalici -- (20) • Q.: I beg your pardon for interrupting you, Mr. Borovcanin. I know that you're a little bit nervous. Please relax, take it easy, and I would like to ask you to speak slowly because of the interpreters.
• A.: I understand. After completing four years of primary education, I
went to Sarajevo, where I completed secondary school of commerce, eight
(25)years of education.
• Q.: The war in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina started in April 1992. Where were you when this happened? • A.: At the beginning of April, when the war started, I was in Sarajevo, in Pofalici, together with my family. At the beginning of (10)April, barricades were put up, and from that moment on I was unable to go to work; we were surrounded on all sides, I mean Pofalici as a settlement, until the 15th or 16th of May, 1992. • Q.: Pofalici as a locality, was it inhabited by both Muslims and Serbs and Croats? Was it a mixed population? (15) • A.: When I moved there 20 years ago, the population was majority Serb; but for the last ten years prior to the war, large numbers of people came to settle there from Sandzak, so that, just before the war broke out, the majority population was Muslim. • Q.: So in mid-May, you left your place of residence. Where did you (20)go?
• A.: On the 16th of May when the attack started, together with my
family and the other refugees - a total of 1.000 people - across the Hum
relay point, I managed to reach free territory under the control of the
Serbs. About 200 people were killed in Pofalici, mostly women, children,
(25)and old people who did not manage to escape across this Hum mountain.
• A.: Via Hum we got to Zuc, territory controlled by the Serbs. (5) • Q.: Was it in Zuc that you joined the army of Bosnian Serbs? • A.: No. We just spent the night there. Because we reached Zuc in the evening, we spent the night. In the morning, the whole group of refugees went on towards Vogosca, and I was with them together with my family. From there I went to Zunovi, my native village, and on the 18th, (10)in the evening, I reached Zunovi and my parents' house. • Q.: Were you a member of the army of Republika Srpska? And if so, when did you join the army? • A.: When I arrived in the village, two or three days later I was drafted to the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade. (15) • Q.: Did you have a rank? • A.: I was a private. • Q.: So we're talking about May 1992. Did you remain in that unit until the end of the war? • A.: When I arrived in my native village, and after I was mobilised, as (20)a line of separation had not been established yet, my village was surrounded and the members of the army stayed in the village until a line was formed in Krusevo. That is when we went to the lines held by the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.
• Q.: So would you agree that, until the end of the war, you were a
(25)member of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade?
• Q.: But that platoon was part of the brigade? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Let us now go on to July 1995. So at the beginning of July 1995, where were you or, rather, your unit? • A.: At the beginning of July 1995, my unit was near the Olovsko Theatre, the locality called Ajdinovici. (10) • Q.: So that was a fortified position, defence position? What kind of a position was it? • A.: It was a defence position, but we, as the reconnaissance platoon, were there as reinforcements on the line because of attacks by Muslim forces, because the line was not a very firm one. (15) • Q.: So how long did you stay there in those positions at Ajdinovici? • A.: I can't tell you the exact dates. I said that in the preparations for my testimony. But I think it was the 3rd or 4th of July that we got orders from our commander to report to headquarters of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade. (20) • Q.: You said Palez? • A.: No. Knezina. Knezina. • Q.: Are those two localities close to one another? • A.: Yes. Right next to one another. • Q.: In the command, did you receive any orders, any assignments? (25)
• A.: Our commander told us that we should be ready for the next day
• Q.: Did you get any more detailed instructions or guidelines? • A.: No. • Q.: That next day, the day that followed the day you arrived at (5)headquarters, did you start towards Zeleni Jadar? • A.: Yes, we did. We started towards Zeleni Jadar the next day and we arrived in the evening. We set up our tents and we spent the night there. Let me just add that we were reinforced by another 30 men from the front line, and my reconnaissance platoon numbered about 30 men. (10) • Q.: So from Knezina was it 30 plus 30 men that set off? • A.: About 60 men, yes. • Q.: When you set up camp, did you set up camp in Zeleni Jadar? • A.: Yes. We set up camp there and spent the night there. • Q.: Among the command staff, as this was the 2nd Romanija Brigade, was (15)any staff officer present? • A.: The commander of the reconnaissance platoon, the late Milenko Bojovic, and the battalion commander. • Q.: So who was the commander of your reconnaissance platoon? • A.: The late Milenko Bojovic. (20) • Q.: Please make pauses after my question. Can you tell us what date that was when you were there at Zeleni Jadar? • A.: I think it was the 5th to the 6th that we spent the night at Zeleni Jadar.
• Q.: Once there, did you or your unit receive any more detailed
(25)information as to why you were there, from your commander, and what your
• A.: Talking to the commander, I learnt that -- and so did the other members of the reconnaissance platoon -- that we needed to capture certain features around Srebrenica. (5) • Q.: Preparing for this testimony, you told us which elevation points you were -- your unit was supposed to gain control of, so will you tell us, please? • A.: Alibegovac, which we reached and we spent the night there, and we thought that was the end of it, the end of the operation. (10) • Q.: But before you reached Alibegovac, did you engage in any combat, that is, from the moment you arrived to the Zeleni Jadar region until you reached Alibegovac? • A.: Yes. On the 6th, I think it was, that we went on a reconnaissance mission towards Jasenovo and Kiprovo. We spent that day reconnaissance (15)duty. We came across a minefield. And then we went back to Jasenovo and we stayed there for two or three days. I think it was until the 9th of July, because the weather was bad. • Q.: On the way to Kiprovo, or rather Alibegovac, did you encounter any resistance by the Muslim forces? (20) • A.: We had some minor resistance at Kiprovo. • Q.: Did you encounter UNPROFOR forces?
• A.: When we passed Kiprovo, there's a slope there that was covered in
woods. When we got to the edge of the wood, there was a field there, and
on that field we saw a checkpoint held by UNPROFOR which was fenced in
(25)with barbed wire.
• A.: No, because we had received strict orders that we must not fire at UNPROFOR forces. • Q.: Did you gain control or capture, I mean in military usage, that (5)checkpoint? • A.: As I said, when we reached the edge of the wood down there, we saw that there was an observation post within the compound of the UNPROFOR forces, and from that observation post, looking through our binoculars, we saw the UNPROFOR soldier waving to us to approach them. (10) • Q.: Will you tell us what happened next. • A.: We stopped there for a moment, because you know how it is, and maybe five or ten minutes later we went forward. When we crossed the field, we saw him waving to us to keep to the left-hand side, which we did. We came to the entrance of the checkpoint and we stopped there. (15)There were three of us: the commander and two of us soldiers. • Q.: Did you communicate with the UNPROFOR soldiers? • A.: Since the commander could speak English, I think that their commanding officer came out. They established contact. And we soldiers were not allowed to go in, nor to have any contact with UNPROFOR (20)soldiers. Afterwards, I learnt from the commander that, before us, Muslim forces had been there which had pressured the Dutch Battalion forces which had been stationed there, and that they had killed one of their soldiers, forcing them to shoot at us so that they could withdraw more easily.
• Q.: You said that there was communication between your commander and
(25)the commander of that UNPROFOR post. What kind of contact was it? A
• A.: A conversation. They talked. Because we had strict orders if we come across UNPROFOR forces, that we must not shoot, that we must not seize their sidearms or equipment, and the agreement was that those troops (5)should be escorted towards Bratunac, that is, the UNPROFOR forces. • Q.: Did you escort them to Bratunac? • A.: We soldiers in front of the checkpoint took control of the trenches which had previously been held by the Muslims, and people were designated to accompany them towards Bratunac. (10) • Q.: Did they hand over to you their personal weapons? • A.: While I was there, no, but I heard that they were escorted, together with their personal weapons and equipment, to Bratunac. • Q.: So as a member of this reconnaissance platoon, you were, one could say, a forerunner of the rest of your unit which was following you? (15) • A.: That was our purpose. That was our duty. • Q.: So when you reached this post at Alibegovac, was there any shelling from heavy weapons that used shells as ammunition? • A.: No, because it wasn't necessary anyway, as the Muslims were withdrawing, retreating. (20) • Q.: As far as I understand you, you and your unit reached that position without any significant resistance.
MR. CAYLEY: Excuse me. I'm sorry, Mr. Petrusic. Judge Riad, I'm
sorry. Could we just have a date? I know -- are we still talking about
the 9th of July? Because many events have happened. I just wondered
(25)where we were at the point when the witness said that there was no
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, yes, Mr. Cayley. In my next questions we will come to the date. • Q.: So my question was: When you reached this position at Alibegovac, (5)there was no serious conflict with your unit? • A.: No. • Q.: Mr. Borovcanin, could you tell us when you reached this position held by UNPROFOR, that is, Alibegovac? • A.: On the 9th of July, in the evening. (10) • Q.: Did you move forward on that same date, or rather, what did your unit do next? • A.: On the 9th, in the evening, we reached the line assigned to us and the commander gave us orders to spend the night there. • Q.: What about the next day, the 10th of July? (15) • A.: On the 10th of July, we received orders from the commander to head towards the settlement of Slapovici. • Q.: Throughout this period, from the 6th of July until the 10th of July, in the morning, were you aware of who your neighbours were on your right-hand and left-hand side? (20) • A.: We did. We had to. That was our duty. • Q.: Could you tell us who was on your right and who on your left? • A.: On the right was the Birac Brigade and on the left the Zvornik Brigade. • Q.: So they, too, have their own axis of attack. (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: We received all orders from our commander, the late Branko Bojovic. (5) • Q.: Do you know who gave him orders? • A.: We soldiers only knew about our own commander. As to who he got his orders from, that for us meant a superior level of command. • Q.: Would it be logical that if you were part of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, that your commander received orders from the brigade commander? (10) • A.: Yes, correct, from the brigade commander. • Q.: So let us go back to that order or, rather, your next assignment on the 10th, in the morning, the attack towards Slapovici. Would you explain to us what happened on the way to Slapovici. Did you engage in any combat? (15) • A.: When we reached the outskirts of Slapovici, a group was designated to reconnoitre and see whether there were men there or Muslim forces. A group of us, four or five, entered the village of Slapovici, passed through it and came out on a hill overlooking Slapovici. There was absolutely no one around. (20)We gave the sign. There was some hay or something, I don't know exactly, but we set fire to it, and we gave the signal that the rest of the unit could pass through safely.
• Q.: As you passed through Slapovici and, if you know, when the rest of
the unit passed through, was there any torching of the village of
(25)Slapovici, torching of houses in the village?
• Q.: Was there artillery support that shelled facilities in Slapovici? • A.: There was no need because Slapovici had already been abandoned. • Q.: So after passing through Slapovici, you reached the feature you (5)called Brdo. Can you tell us anything more about that feature, to define it? • A.: It's a little hill; I really don't know whether it has a name. Because when we reached Brdo, there was resistance by the Muslim forces. That was the strongest resistance that we encountered in the course of the (10)operation along our axis. • Q.: So we're talking about the 10th of July. Could you roughly tell us what time of day it was? • A.: I think it was about 12.00. • Q.: Tell us, did you continue the attack? What happened with your (15)unit when you reached that point? • A.: The unit went on, went forward. • Q.: Can you tell us briefly where you got to by the end of that day, the 10th of July? • A.: When we left Slapovici, we reached the asphalt road, and I think (20)it leads from Zeleni Jadar towards Srebrenica. We moved on for awhile and then we stopped and spent the night there. We stopped for the night. • Q.: When you reached the road, Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica, was there any resistance by the BH army there? • A.: No. (25)
• Q.: So your unit stopped for the night there, that is, the Zeleni
• A.: Yes. • Q.: The next day, the 11th of July? • A.: On the 11th of July, in the morning, we were given orders to march (5)along the left-hand side of the road. There was a valley there, that we should go 'round it, because from a position - I think it's called Bojna - there was an artillery piece firing so we couldn't go on. Our reconnaissance unit started, and around 12.00 or 1.00, it captured that elevation point as well. (10) • Q.: You said there was a Browning firing. A Browning, is that a large-calibre weapon? • A.: Yes. • Q.: On that day, the 11th of July, were there any NATO air strikes? • A.: We were in the valley. We heard the explosions but we didn't know (15)what it was. Later on, we learnt that these were air strikes against our targets. • Q.: Tell us, did you or, rather, your unit enter Srebrenica on the 11th of July? • A.: No. (20) • Q.: Can it be said that your unit was at the locality Bojna at the time? • A.: Maybe two or three soldiers left without permission of the commander, but in the evening, we were all there at Bojna. • Q.: In the evening of the 11th of July? (25)
• A.: Yes, the 11th of July.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: On the 12th of July, did you receive any orders from your (5)commander? • A.: On the 12th of July, we were given orders by the commander to move, to search the terrain in the direction of Jahorina, Viogora, and there was a third place whose name escapes me just now. That is where the units were to assemble; to search the terrain on the way there and to (10)assemble there. Suceska was the third locality. • Q.: Now that you've said Suceska, you are talking about the search and assembly in the area of Jahorina, Viogora, and Suceska. • A.: Correct. • Q.: Did your unit assemble there on the 12th of July? (15) • A.: Yes, we did. It wasn't just us. There was the Zvornik and also the Birac Brigades that assembled there. • Q.: And the commanders of those units, were they there? • A.: I can't say exactly. But I do know that when we got up there we were all tired. We had Dr. Zugic, and our leader conveyed to him that we (20)were tired and that there were some people suffering from a skin disease. The skin of their feet had split. And after that the order was received that we ought to line up and that we would be addressed by General Mladic. • Q.: And did General Mladic address you? (25)
• A.: He addressed us and said on the occasion that we were to go to
• Q.: Can you be certain, although in the course of our talk with you so far -- can you be certain as to the day when General Mladic addressed you? When was that exactly? (5) • A.: I said then, as far as the date is concerned when we had our conversation, that I just know that it was the entry into Srebrenica and the search of the terrain. And as to the General Ratko Mladic's address to us, whether it was on the 12th or the 13th, in the morning, when we moved off to Zepa, I can't be quite sure. (10) • Q.: After that search of the terrain and the assembly of your unit and the other units, where did you go? • A.: We went back to Jasenovo, where we started out from and where our tents were. • Q.: You are mentioning the Jasenovo for the first time now. Is it the (15)Zeleni Jadar area? • A.: I forgot to say that the tents from Zeleni Jadar were transferred to Jasenovo. • Q.: To the best of your recollections, this was on the 13th when your unit moved onwards towards Zepa; is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you tell us which route your unit took?
• A.: Our unit, I know for certain, did not pass across Srebrenica,
Potocari, because we would have got out onto the road which leads from
Konjevic Polje, Kasaba - and that is something that we know from earlier
(25)on - but it took a different route. And that was the first time that I
• Q.: Could you tell us when you reached the Zepa area? • A.: We arrived in the evening, and it was the Plana area where we spent the night. (5) • Q.: The Plana area is the broader environs of Zepa; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What about the other units? Had they arrived there too? • A.: They were arriving. It was already getting dark and everybody fended for themselves; where they found themselves they spent the night. (10) • Q.: On the 14th, in the morning, if I follow you - you were speaking of the 13th - but on the morning of the 14th, where were you and your unit?
• A.: On the morning of the 14th, we received orders to move to Pozepje • Q.: You say "the reserve for the Zvornik Brigade." What do you mean by that? • A.: The Zvornik Brigade held the main axis of the combat line towards Zepa, and because we were tired, we were left to stand as a reserve (20)force. • Q.: Did you take part in the fighting?
• A.: On the 15th of July, in the morning, we received the order to
replace the Zvornik Brigade which had to return to its command
headquarters, and we took up its axis and line. And I later learnt that
(25)it had to return because of the breakthrough of the Muslim forces from
• Q.: You said you learnt later on, "We learnt later on that this was because of the breakthrough of forces." Did you learn anything more about that or was that just a piece of information along the usual lines? (5) • A.: That's all we learnt. We heard that. Nobody actually informed us. We heard about it. • Q.: Now, briefly, let us move on. You entered that main axis and the fighting towards Zepa lasted in continuity? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: During that time, during the time you spent there, that is to say -- let me rephrase that. Who issued you orders? • A.: All orders to the reconnaissance platoon were issued by our leader. • Q.: In that time frame, that is to say, during those fighting (15)operations towards Zepa, did you see General Krstic? • A.: Yes. He would come frequently to tour the line and to visit us fighters, particularly those of us who were in the main section of the combat operations, main theatre of operations. • Q.: When he visited you, did he address the commanders personally, the (20)leaders, the fighters? Whom did he address? • A.: Well, he talked to all of us. • Q.: General Krstic was the commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade at the time when you were a member of that brigade; is that right?
• A.: In 1992, in the place of the brigade commander, instead of Veljko
(25)Bosanac, General Radislav Krstic came and he stayed up until 1994.
• A.: He was with us fighters all the time up at that part of the Olovo battleground. He spent most of his time there and lost his leg there. (5) • Q.: During the time that he commanded the brigade, do you happen to know whether there were any prisoners of war in the command of your brigade? • A.: As I live in Knezina as a refugee, a displaced person, I know that there were some Muslims captured who were put up in Knezina in a building (10)there. They were detained there. • Q.: What was the treatment towards those prisoners? • A.: They ate the same food that the army ate which was in Knezina. They received cigarettes. And I had occasion to talk to them as well. They were satisfied. Nobody mistreated them in any way. And they left. (15)I don't know exactly when. But I did have occasion after the war to meet a man who had been detained there and to say hello to the General, the man who was in prison. He told me to say hello to the General. • Q.: Tell us, please: The surname Borovcanin, is that a common surname? Is it rare in those parts or is it a common, widespread surname? (20) • A.: Half of Romanija -- half the people in Romanija have the surname Borovcanin.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] May I just take a moment to confer
with my colleague, Your Honour? (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.]
• A.: Let me just answer your previous question. When I said that I had no insight into that, into superior levels of command, I meant in combat operations, as regards combat operations. That's what I had in mind. And (10)General Krstic -- I learnt that later on, after returning from Zepa to the command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade. That was at the beginning of August -- he took up the post of commander of the Drina Corps. • Q.: So your knowledge of that dates back to his appointment after you came back to the brigade headquarters in Knezina; is that right? (15) • A.: Yes, that's right. • Q.: Do you happen to know whether, in the course of the combat activities around Zepa, so that we don't have to go back to that again, whether there were any prisoners of war taken in the area? • A.: Along our axis there was not, but as negotiations were underway (20)and as our unit was frequently stopped in our combat activities to let a Muslim delegation pass through towards negotiations, they always had time to withdraw to their reserve positions.
• Q.: So you received orders to cease the fighting, to stop your combat
activities, when, as you say, delegations were supposed to pass through on
(25)their way to the negotiations; is that right?
• Q.: Who issued those orders? • A.: Mostly those orders were issued by our leader, but on one occasion, and that was by the Purtici area, when I heard on the Motorola (5)General Krstic issuing a strict order that all hostilities be stopped to let a delegation pass which was moving from Zepa, from the relay, that is to say, towards Zepa, to attend negotiations. • Q.: Did you and your unit, during the fighting that took place at Srebrenica and Zepa, did you receive instructions from the command as to (10)how you should behave, what your conduct should be towards the civilian population and towards prisoners of war? • A.: Yes, we did. Every battalion had the officer in charge of moral guidance, and he spent all his time with us. And we would receive orders from our commanders and our leaders as to how we should behave in the case (15)of prisoners of war being taken. • Q.: Let us clarify the term. I know what you mean by "the officer in charge of moral guidance." In our own language we know what it means, but let's explain. It is an individual dealing with legal, religious, and other affairs linked to the brigade; is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Your Honour, this completes the examination of this witness by the Defence, my examination of Witness Borovcanin.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic.
(25)Now, Mr. Cayley, do you think you can do that today?
JUDGE RIAD: Would you like to start? MR. CAYLEY: If you wish, I can start today and use the time. JUDGE RIAD: Go ahead. (5) • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Good afternoon, Mr. Borovcanin. • A.: Good afternoon. • Q.: Now, am I right in saying that you were born on the 19th of April, 1958, in Zunovi in Sokolac? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And I think you've already said in your evidence in chief that you lived in Sarajevo for a number of years. How old were you when you moved to Sarajevo? • A.: I attended fifth form in Sarajevo, so that was in 1969. And since (15)then, I have spent all my life in Sarajevo, that is to say, up until 1992. • Q.: So you lived in Sarajevo until the war began, essentially? • A.: Up until the 16th of May, 1992. • Q.: And am I right in saying that you lived in a street called Humska Street? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: What was the number of your house? 210? • A.: 210. • Q.: What was your job at the factory that you spoke about? Were you a lathe operator? (25)
• A.: I worked in the factory that made ball bearings, UTN. On a lathe,
• Q.: And that was in Sarajevo? • A.: In Vogosca, near Sarajevo. • Q.: Do you know a man called Radomir Riscevic [phoen]? (5) • A.: No. • Q.: At the beginning of the war in Gornji Pofalici, were you engaged yourself as a volunteer in any Serbian defence units in that place? • A.: No. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Borovcanin -- (10) THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge. JUDGE RIAD: [Microphone not activated] THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge Riad. MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Now, could you tell me again the date on which you joined the 2nd (15)Romanija Brigade? • A.: The 2nd Romanija Brigade, I was mobilised into it on the 20th or the 21st. • Q.: Of which month? • A.: Of May. (20) • Q.: In which year was that? • A.: 1992. • Q.: Now, in 1995 what was the name of the commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, in July of 1995?
• A.: The commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade in July 1995 was Mirko
(25)Trivic.
(5)
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m., to
be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of November,
2000, at 9.20 a.m.
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