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/ Colormap • Page 7100 • {1/91} (1)Tuesday, 7 November 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court] --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m. (5) JUDGE RIAD: I would like to greet the parties and all our staff and extend my greeting to the gallery. We can resume asking the witness. I forgot to greet the witness too. Good morning. THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours, my (10)learned friends from the Prosecution, Witness DB. Mr. President, the Defence wishes to inform you that in the course of today's hearings, General Krstic will not be attending due to problems of health, which have been confirmed by the doctors yesterday afternoon in the Detention Unit, so that as far as the Defence is aware, there might be some surgery. (15)General Krstic agrees to continue today's hearings in his absence, and during the afternoon the Defence will have his written waiver prepared so that we can continue our hearings without further problems. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. We are aware of this and we wish General Krstic recovery and we'll continue the trial since he has (20)agreed. Thank you. Please proceed. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President.
WITNESS: WITNESS DB
[Resumed] • EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued] (25)
• Q.: Witness DB, we stopped yesterday when we were discussing the 13th
• A.:
[redacted] • Q.: While the forward command post existed in Krivace and later in Godenje, were other officers of the Drina Corps or the Main Staff present? • A.: At the forward command post in Krivace and later Godenje, General (15)Mladic would occasionally come, but he didn't stay for long. I think that he came in all two or three times throughout the duration of the Zepa operation. • Q.: Was General Krstic present at the forward command post throughout the duration of the operation? (20) • A.: General Krstic was present more or less all the time at the forward command post in the village of Krivace and the village of Godenje. I remember that he would occasionally go to tour the units participating in the operation, but all this took place within a radius of several kilometres. (25)
• Q.: While touring the units was he in radio contact or in contact in
• A.: Throughout the time he was connected to the command radio network in such a way that one of the soldiers with a mobile device would accompany him as he moved, or General Krstic himself would call from the (5)command post of one of the subordinate units, using their transmitters. • Q.: Witness DB -- JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. You say one of the soldiers with a mobile device would accompany him as he moved. Was that a constant accompanying person, like a bodyguard accompanying somebody everywhere? (10) • A.: No. He was a soldier from the communications battalion who would, pursuant to General Krstic's orders, go with him carrying the mobile equipment along. So depending on General Krstic's assessment as to whether he would need him while he was touring or while he was temporarily absent, this soldier with the mobile device would go with him in the jeep (15)or on foot, if that was how -- if he could walk at the time. So the soldier was not from his -- a bodyguard or security unit, but from the communications centre of the forward command post. JUDGE RIAD: According to your knowledge and experience, a man in the position of a General would be constantly accompanied by a soldier for (20)communication? • A.: General Krstic had his own security and escort, physical escort. JUDGE RIAD: I'm speaking of communication. The mobile device, is this part of a General's equipment?
• A.: No, no. That was not the practice in our conditions for a part of
(25)the communications equipment to always accompany the General.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Witness DB, who would decide whether when leaving the forward command post the General needed to have a communication line? (5) • A.: I think that the decision would be made by General Krstic himself. • Q.: And this communication line that he would take with him leaving the forward command post, with whom could he establish contact by means of it? • A.: It was one of the reserve mobile transmitters that could only be (10)used within the same radio network of the units participating in the Zepa operation. So when he would leave the forward command post to go to the area of responsibility or the command post of one of the units participating in the Zepa operation, in his absence from the forward command post, he could command only those units that were participating in (15)the operation because with that device which the soldier was carrying, the soldier from the communications centre, General Krstic could command only the units that were involved in the Zepa operation. JUDGE WALD: Excuse me, on the transcript, is that really the correct English translation, that he could "command only" the units, or (20)should it be "communicate only" with the units? It says here, "In his absence ... he could command only those units participating in the operation because with that device," and then later on it repeats that, that he could "command only the units." I'm wondering if you don't mean communicate, if the English translation shouldn't be "communicate"? (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.]
• A.: Yes. It is a device with limited range and voice protection, and (5)the key that we used to protect the speech was available only to units participating in the Zepa operation. To explain this technically, this means that using this device, he could communicate only with the units participating in the Zepa operation. According to its technical properties, it has a range of 8 to 12 (10)kilometres, but because of the characteristics of electromagnetic waves, its range is considerably reduced in a mountainous and wooded terrain. • Q.: Witness DB, do you know -- no, let me withdraw that. Do you know what position General Krstic held in the command of the Drina Corps on the 13th of July, 1995? (15) • A.: I think that General Krstic was Chief of Staff of the Corps. • Q.: Do you have any knowledge as to when General Krstic became commander of the Drina Corps?
• A.: I know that this is an important question, but in my preparations
for my testimony here, I read the order of the president of the Republika
(20)Srpska dated the 13th of July appointing General Krstic commander of the
Drina Corps, because it is only the president who has the authority to
appoint people to these strategic groupings and positions.
While we were at Zepa, whether it was over the media or in some
other way, anyway, we learnt of the decree of the president of the
(25)republic. And I know that sometime around the 20th of July or
• Q.: Sir, you're an officer who has graduated from the highest military educational institutions that existed in the former Yugoslavia and in the newly formed republics. According to your laws and regulations, the (15)takeover of duty, is it an obligatory act that has to take place when commanders change, regardless of the level of command?
• A.: Yes. According to our laws and regulations, it is prescribed in
detail that all duties in the army, from the lowest to the highest level,
have a date fixed when one officer hands over duty to the other and all
(20)the obligations, the documents, the material consequences resulting from
that position. And after this period, which is defined clearly by their
superior, a document has to be compiled with a defined content, and that
document is called a record on the handing over and taking over of duty.
So it has a clearly defined format according to instructions, and
(25)only after that report has been drafted, this is the basic document which
(5) • Q.: Let us depart for a moment from our main topic, that is, Srebrenica and this time period, and let me ask you a general question. As you are a military officer, and one can assume that you are knowledgeable about these things, the regular combat report from subordinate units when addressed to the superior command, who receives (10)these reports? • A.: The regular operative combat report from subordinate units, if they are being sent by teletype encoded links, reach the communications centre; and if they are sent by courier or messenger, they are delivered to the mailing department, from where they are carried to the operations (15)room or the operations centre of the Corps command, the reception of which is confirmed by signature to the carrier in his book by the operations officer on duty or the duty officer in the operations centre, so he signs this book confirming receipt. • Q.: So the operations officer on duty is the first person to (20)familiarise himself with the contents of such reports?
• A.: Yes. Within the framework of the daily functioning of control and
command, it is clearly defined up to what time those reports have to be
delivered, so that the operations officer on duty will have time to round
off all those reports and make a compilation of them and send an
(25)operations report of that command to the superior command. Once he has
(5) • Q.: In the course of the proceedings so far, we have seen a great deal of markings, and I don't want to put them on the ELMO, but I'm going to give you an example. For example, Zlatar 1 as a name, and 01. Can you explain to us what that means, Zlatar 1 and 01? • A.: The instructions with regard to documents related to (10)communications is precisely defined in a document which is called a review of code names, and it is there to protect the names of the actual units. For example, if we're talking about the command of the Drina Corps as the actual name and title of the unit, then its code name should be Zlatar. Then in going through the other code names and a review of them, it states (15)that the rear command post is Zlatar 1, that the forward command post is Zlatar 2. And if we define a reserve command post, if that is defined as well and stipulated, then that could be Zlatar 3. In the rules and regulations that exist in the army, the mark "01" or "02" does not exist anywhere, although in wartime practice it is frequently used to -- that is (20)to say, the commanding officers who are commanders or chiefs or suchlike. • Q.: Witness DB, I should now like to show you some intercepts, radio messages intercepted.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] And may I call upon the usher for
Exhibit -- OTP Exhibit 698A bis. Would you please put it on the ELMO, the
(25)English version.
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Do you remember in the course of the time you spent at the forward command post of Zepa, do you remember having had this conversation? • A.: I remember that there was some 150, 200 soldiers which were to have been pulled out of the composition of forces which took part in the Zepa operation and that they were to be deployed to the vicinity of Han (10)Pijesak, not far from Zepa, in order to ensure certain communications or to set up some ambushes, because at that time, that is to say, during that period, we expected a breakthrough by the forces of the 285th Zepa Brigade from the direction of Zepa towards Han Pijesak and Kladanj. I remember this because I thought at the time how I could organise communications (15)with that unit, which was going a little further off from the area of the combat operations themselves. But I don't remember -- here there's -- there's a question here which I don't seem to remember. It says, "Is Jokic there?" "Is Jokic around?" That's what the question is: "Is Jokic around?" And I'm quite certain that there wasn't any Jokic there at the (20)time, if that is the conversation and the period. There wasn't a Jokic there at all at Krivace or Godenje either. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I should like to ask the usher now to place OTP Exhibit 477A bis on the ELMO, please.
JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, just a question. This intercepted
(25)message, do you have it by any chance in an audio cassette?
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Witness DB, do you know who Major Furtula is? (5) • A.: Yes. Major Furtula at the time was the commander of the 5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade. • Q.: Do you know who Tasic and Sladojevic are? • A.: No. • Q.: Do you know about the individuals Nastic and Blagojevic? (10) • A.: Yes. They were the commanders of the brigades of the Drina Corps. • Q.: Witness, do you know who Ljubo Beara is? • A.: I did, yes. • Q.: Did you, during the time you spent at the forward command post, see Ljubo Beara? (15) • A.: No. • Q.: During your stay at the forward command post, did you hear through your communications systems about him? • A.: No. • Q.: Did anybody, any of your soldiers, signalsmen, convey to you the (20)fact that he was -- his presence in the radio relay communications network? • A.: No. • Q.: Thank you.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] I should like now to ask the usher
(25)for OTP Exhibit 786A, B.
JUDGE RIAD: Yes, Mr. Petrusic. (5)Mr. Harmon? MR. HARMON: Yes, I'm just looking in the record. I heard the English translation of 786, and I believe the exhibit that my colleague is referring to is 789. THE REGISTRAR: That is correct. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar, it has not been admitted into evidence? THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, 789. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Witness DB, do you remember that you had a conversation during (15)your stay at the forward command post in which stocari are mentioned? • A.: No. I had different conversations and different messages were conveyed. I know that most of them referred to combat activities, and nothing with regard to stocari, cowboys or -- • Q.: Thank you, Witness. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, as this document has not been introduced into evidence, the Defence will withdraw it, but just used it to ask this one question of the witness. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, all right. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] (25)
• Q.: Witness DB, you spent a lot of your time with the communications
(5) MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Mr. President. If the witness is going to testify as an expert, then I believe we should have received a report of this witness as an expert in the subject area about which he's going to testify. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic? (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The Defence has posed certain restrictions with respect to asking these questions. Of course, we're not going to ask the witness to -- who is present here to speak as an expert witness. That was not our intention. We just wanted to hear his opinion, and I don't think that comes under the rules and regulations of expert (15)witness testimony at all. We're just asking for an opinion in view of the fact that he spent some time at that forward command post and did a lot of work with radio communications, that he heard many conversations and so on and so forth, and just to present us with his views about that. (20) JUDGE RIAD: You mean you want to ask him only about his own experience, what he has been doing? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Precisely so, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: And how --
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] And with respect to the
(25)conversations that he has been presented with so far during his
JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon? MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if the testimony is limited to his experience only, then that's a different issue; but if he's testifying as (5)an expert, then under the appropriate rule, we should have received an expert report. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, only his own experience? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Only his own experience, yes, Your Honour. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. • A.: As far as the functioning of communications goes and their protection, radio communication and monitoring and interception in this past war, what I can say is that the situation was the following: Those monitoring groups listening in were formed, or perhaps 100 per cent they (15)were formed of people who do not have the necessary experience required in the army. They were not trained for that work in the army or in military schools. They were not trained to do that work, but they learnt to do it as they went along while they were monitoring and intercepting certain lines of communication. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, you are speaking of the people intercepting on your side, on the Bosnian Serb -- • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Not what you call the enemy side?
• A.: Your Honour, in preparing for this trial, I had occasion to read
(25)through some of the intercepts by our enemies, and I have come to the
JUDGE RIAD: Proceed, Mr. Petrusic. JUDGE WALD: I have one question, if I could, Witness DB. I want (15)to make sure I understand your testimony. If, if there were mistakes or if an intercept didn't accurately reflect what had actually been said between the parties, where is it most likely the mistake would have been made? On the side of the monitoring person who was listening, who didn't understand, or -- I mean, where is it most likely that the thing went (20)wrong, if in fact at the end the intercept didn't reflect what actually went on in the conversation? Where is the most likely area that it would have broken down?
• A.: Based on my experience, most probably where it would have broken
down would be the individual monitoring the conversation, because, as a
(25)rule, those conversations are taped and then they are transcribed and
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence has reached the end of their examination of this witness. We have one or two more questions, but may we suggest that this be done in private session, in view of the fact that the questions emanate from questions that have (15)already been answered during this trial in private session.
JUDGE RIAD: All right. We'll go into private session, Madam
Registrar, please.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The Defence has no further questions for Witness DB. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, would you like to start your (20)examination? THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. President. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, would you like to start your cross-examination after the break? MR. HARMON: Yes, thank you. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: May I just ask: Do you have another witness for
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President. JUDGE RIAD: For this week? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No. We have no more witnesses, (5)Mr. President. JUDGE RIAD: Could you give us more information about the condition of General Krstic when you come back? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, certainly, and this is a question that the Defence did wish to address. (10) JUDGE RIAD: When you come back, we expect that. Thank you. May I just ask Mr. Harmon: How long would you think your cross-examination will take? MR. HARMON: I believe my cross-examination will conclude tomorrow, sometime in the middle of the day. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Tomorrow. Good. So let's have a break for 20 minutes. Thank you. So we come back here at a quarter to eleven. --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m. (20)
JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, before you start your cross-examination,
I don't want to limit you with time. Usually I prefer not to make the
break before you finish a series of questioning, but as you saw, I
wouldn't like it to be more than an hour and a quarter maximum, or even
one hour, and then we have a break. But I don't want it to be hard and
(25)fast rules; otherwise, there will be an interruption, and unless one of
MR. HARMON: Thank you, Judge Riad. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar. THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, I just wanted to mention that I just received a statement from General Krstic that he has no objections to the Court proceedings continuing in his absence. So I have it here, and it will be Exhibit D133. (10) JUDGE RIAD: May I ask Mr. Petrusic also if he has any news about his medical condition? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] During the break, Mr. President, we spoke to General Krstic, and he is waiting for the surgery to take place in the course of the day. Whether this will be carried out in the (15)Detention Unit or somewhere else, we don't know that yet. JUDGE RIAD: Do you have more information about the surgery itself?
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Nothing more than that, except as
far as we have been informed, an incision has to be made to remove the
(20)blood clot, which will mean that he will have to rest for the next few
days, and probably he will be unable to attend the proceedings, but that
raises another issue.
In view of the fact that we will probably be completing the
examination of this witness tomorrow, after that comes the re-examination
(25)of General Krstic by the Prosecution and by Your Honours. In view of his
JUDGE RIAD: You mean the examination of General Krstic by the Prosecution and the Judges? And what about your other witnesses? You have no other witnesses at all this week or ... MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For this week, we have no other (10)witnesses. We had too many at one point, and they were waiting for quite a long time. And in collaboration with the Witness and Victim's Unit, we came to the conclusion it would be best to send them home, and then for the next sitting after the 20th of November, we could have them brought here to testify. (15)In the meantime, again, for the Trial Chamber's information, the Defence has revised the list of witnesses in relation to the list submitted on the 14th of October so that we will be able to fit into the time frame set by the Trial Chamber for the Defence case. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. Thank you very much for all your (20)cooperation. Please convey our best wishes to General Krstic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, the floor is yours.
MR. HARMON: Good morning, Judge Riad and Judge Wald. Just to
inform you, throughout this examination I will be asking for private
(25)sessions on a number of occasions because of the necessity to ensure the
JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar, please call. (5)
THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Witness DB, I'm going to be asking you questions about the events (15)that took place in Srebrenica and the events that took place in Zepa from early July to August of 1995. I will be also asking you about events that took place after that. And those events took place many years ago. Witness DB, did you keep a notebook and record any events or any significant communications? (20) • A.: No. • Q.: So your testimony before this Trial Chamber is based on your recollections; is that correct? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Prior to coming to this Trial Chamber to testify, did you have an
(25)opportunity to review any documents?
• Q.: What documents did you review? • A.: I looked at a part of the documents shown to me by Mr. Petrusic. • Q.: Other than the documents shown to you by Mr. Petrusic, did you (5)review any other documents? • A.: Since February, or rather April this year, connected to all the events that took place in the areas of Srebrenica and Zepa, I communicated quite frequently with people I knew and who were participants in the event, and in this way I refreshed my recollection. (10) • Q.: Could you identify the people with whom you communicated in order to refresh your recollection? • A.: Those were mostly officers from the Drina Corps and a number of soldiers, signalsmen who were with me at Srebrenica and Zepa. • Q.: My question is: Can you identify them by name, please? (15) • A.: I spoke to Colonel Vicic, with Lieutenant Colonel Obrenovic, and two of my signalsmen soldiers. One is called Baki. • Q.: Who is the other one? • A.: The other one is Plakalovic. • Q.: Did they have first names? (20) • A.: Plakalovic's first name is Mirko. And as for the other one, we usually use his nickname, so I can't remember his name. • Q.: You don't remember his first name or his surname?
• A.: There were two of them, twin brothers. One of them was with me.
The name of one of them is Momir, but you see, I'm not sure, because there
(25)are two of them, two twin brothers.
• A.: I probably did with a lot of people, but these are customary conversations amongst us. (5) • Q.: My question, Witness DB, is: In order to prepare for your testimony today, you've identified four people with whom you talked in order to refresh your recollection. My question to you is: Did you talk to any other individuals other than the four you have identified today in order to refresh your recollection about the events that occurred in (10)Srebrenica and in Zepa in 1995? • A.: I have to tell you that we often communicate amongst ourselves over there and that I spoke to a number of people, but not in the context, strictly speaking, of my preparations for my testimony, but rather when we commented on those events and that time period and the consequences those (15)events have had, so I cannot specify the people I actually spoke to as part of the preparations for this testimony. • Q.: All right. Witness DB, we'll move on to a different topic, then. Let me ask you: Who is the Drina Corps chief of communications and electronic security? Who was he in 1995? (20) • A.: We had a position and term in the corps that was called chief of communications and not commander for security and communications, if we are referring to the same position. • Q.: We are. And who was that individual? • A.: Lieutenant Colonel Nedo Blagojevic. (25)
MR. HARMON: And Your Honours, again, referring to 1D, Lieutenant
• Q.: Now, I want to focus your attention, Witness DB, on the role of mister -- or Lieutenant Colonel Nedo Blagojevic. Can you describe to the (5)Trial Chamber his role, his duties and responsibilities, and his relationship with the higher officers within the Drina Corps command? • A.: You have asked me a very wide-ranging question, so could you please cut it up into parts? • Q.: I'd be glad to. Can you tell me about the role of Lieutenant (10)Colonel Nedo Blagojevic in the Drina Corps command structure? What was his role? What did he do? • A.: He was chief of communications of the Corps. • Q.: What did being chief of communications of the corps entail? What were his job responsibilities? (15) • A.: The chief of communications is a member of the staff of the corps, and in a sense, he's a professional advisory body for the area of communications. According to the chain of command, he's subordinate to the Chief of Staff, and his duties are wide ranging and prescribed by the rules, and they mainly entail organising, establishing, and functioning (20)and protection of all communications in the area of responsibility of the corps. • Q.: So Lieutenant Colonel Blagojevic was a subordinate to General Krstic who, prior to the 13th of July, was the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps; is that correct? (25)
• A.: In the military sense, yes, that is correct.
• A.: That is what it should be. Now, whether he informed him and briefed him on these things, I don't know, because I wasn't present at (5)those meetings. • Q.: I understand. But that's the way it should have worked in the system of the army of which you were a member? • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Now, if I could go back into private session very (10)briefly for one or two questions. JUDGE RIAD: Private session, if you please. Mr. Harmon, I have a name here. I have a name called Vidoje Blagojevic, Vidoje Blagojevic. It's another person? MR. HARMON: Yes, it is. Vidoje Blagojevic was the commander of (15)the Bratunac Brigade, so there are two Blagojevics on this exhibit. JUDGE RIAD: Yes.
THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.
MR. HARMON: (20)
• Q.: Witness DB, I want to ask you about the creation of a
communications plan for a military operation. You have been in the VRS
and were in the VRS, and participated in a number of military operations.
Can you tell the Judges of this Trial Chamber how a communications plan is
created, why it is created, and how it is ultimately distributed for
(25)implementation. If you would walk us through the steps of the procedure,
• A.: When the Corps Commander is given an assignment by his superior --
I'm now speaking in purely theoretical terms -- he first studies the
assignment given to him himself. Then he convenes his closest associates,
(10)members of his staff, and together with them, he reviews the assignment
and develops the basic concept for the implementation of that assignment.
After that, the whole staff gets together or all the professionals
who can contribute to the creation of the plan and the implementation of
the assignment, and they are all informed of this basic concept. A plan
(15)of work for the command is created, and then all those professionals are
duty-bound within a certain time period to prepare proposals for the
commander for the implementation of that assignment, of course, each one
of them within their own areas of competence and their own jurisdiction
and in line with their duties and responsibilities. To be more specific,
(20)the chief of communications, because that was the focus of your question.
He is now aware of the concept and the idea of the commander. He
knows what the technical and personnel capabilities are of the
Communications Battalion as a unit that can implement that assignment in
the communications area. And the chief of communications, on the basis of
(25)that information, prepares a draft proposal for the organisation of
• Q.: From your description of the theory of how a communications plan is created, as I understood it, it appears that the -- after the commander (10)has his original idea, the advisors or the assistants to the command, including the chief of communications, go their separate ways. They draft proposals and they present their proposals initially to either the Chief of Staff or to the commander directly. Is that correct? • A.: Probably the term means to propose, yes. (15) • Q.: Okay. And then the Chief of Staff reviews the proposals and prepares a proposal that he himself presents to the commander, with various options, with variations that the commander himself can select; is that correct? • A.: Yes. That is the theory of it. (20) • Q.: And then the commander makes a choice and the assistants are informed of that choice, and they finalise a plan of communications in this case that they again present to the Chief of Staff or to the commander for approval; is that correct? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: All right. I understand. Thank you. Now, at the time -- before
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Now, let me -- MR. HARMON: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 428. • Q.: And Witness DB, 428 is the order to activate combat activities in Srebrenica. Have you seen this document prior to coming to court to (10)testify? MR. HARMON: You can put that on the ELMO, please. • A.: I have seen the document. It was with Mr. Petrusic. But as far as any details and more profound analysis goes, I did not undertake that. • Q.: That's quite all right. Now, this document, as you can see, (15)Witness DB, identifies where this particular order is being sent, does it not? In the top part of this document it identifies "To the commands of". Do you see that? • A.: Yes. Yes, I do. • Q.: And this plan to attack Srebrenica involved multiple subordinate (20)units of the Drina Corps; correct? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Now, if you would turn to -- on this exhibit I believe it's on
page 3 in the B/C/S. Toward the bottom paragraph, there is identified a
reserve force of the size of two or three companies of the MUP and one
(25)company from the 1st Vlasenica Light Infantry Brigade. Do you see that?
• Q.: So this reserve force of the Ministry of the Interior and the 1st Vlasenica Light Infantry Brigade, those were elements that were to be included in the attack on Srebrenica, although as reserve units? (5) • A.: That's what it says. • Q.: All right. Now, let me ask you, Witness DB: Was a communications plan created for operation Krivaja 95? • A.: A communications plan for this particular operation I do not think was drafted with all the documents that that implied. (10) • Q.: What is -- when you say with all of the documents that that implied, would you tell us what all of the documents that a communications plan implied means? What do you mean by that? • A.: The chief of communications in those documents, that is to say, that responsibility, he would have to write out an order for (15)communications, as it is called. Furthermore, he would have to write an order for marching and for the actual establishment of the communications centre. Additional documents would be required for all the radio networks and radio relay directions that we had. • Q.: Are any other documents included in a communications plan besides (20)the three documents that you've described? • A.: There was a schematic for radio communication and things of that kind, a review of the code names, a review of the numbers for identifying the commanding officers, a schematic for the courier links, as well as the crypto-protection documents and other similar documents. (25)
• Q.: If a communications plan for Krivaja 95 was created, would that
• A.: Theoretically, that would be what would happen. • Q.: Okay. Now, you have described in brief what is normally included in a full, robust communications plan. Was an abbreviated communications (5)plan created for Operation Krivaja 95? • A.: I think it was, yes, because otherwise communications could not have been set up. • Q.: Did you have an opportunity to review that abbreviated plan for Krivaja 95? (10) • A.: Well, I probably received -- I don't actually remember. I probably received a plan for the radio communications. As for the other details, I really do not recall. • Q.: Now, I made some notes while you were testifying, and you mentioned something about a review of code names would be included in a (15)communications plan. Does that mean that the various units that were to participate in the attack on Srebrenica under Operation Krivaja 95 were given code names so they could communicate with each other during the operation itself? • A.: Yes. In the radio network of command, everybody had certain code (20)names. • Q.: So all of the tactical units that were going to participate in the attack on Srebrenica as well as the reserve units that I've identified in the -- or that are identified in the Krivaja 95 plan were given code names, correct? (25)
• A.: If a plan had been drawn up, in keeping with this order in which,
• Q.: Now, Witness DB, the units that were to participate in the attack on Srebrenica would have been informed of their code names prior to the (10)operation itself being launched; is that correct? • A.: Before the operation itself began, I'm quite certain that they would have to have had a document, and that would have been the plan for radio communication. MR. HARMON: Now, if we could turn to the next exhibit, it is (15)Prosecutor's Exhibit 776, if that could be shown to the witness, please. Madam Registrar, do you have exhibits to distribute to the Judges and Defence? The Defence apparently does not have a copy of Prosecutor's Exhibit 776. Could we have just a moment, Your Honours? I had assumed that (20)these were available for Your Honours' viewing as well. JUDGE RIAD: Witness DB, do you hear me? • A.: Yes.
JUDGE RIAD: Witness DB, I just want more clarification. When you
said that you don't recall that a plan was actually drafted and many of
(25)the things were done based on experience and on ongoing process as the
• A.: Commanding did exist, and I said that it was necessary to have (5)some input information, basic input information. I don't know whether you followed me there. So some necessary pieces of information as input, and then everybody was able to do his job on the basis of that. And for example, for me, it was always enough to know where the forward command post would be and which units would take part, so those (10)are just two pieces of information; and third, when the communications had been established, needed to be established. I didn't have to be told anything more than that. So that's what I had in mind. This type of command did exist. The commanding officers did their work and the other officers, but the (15)steps necessary were reduced to a minimum. MR. HARMON: Your Honours, this document is a document that was seized pursuant to a lawful search warrant issued by the Trial Chamber, and it was seized at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters. Now, if we could have the English version on the ELMO. (20) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Witness DB, you can see in the upper right-hand corner of that document it says "strictly confidential," and it says "Krivaja 95." Do you see that in front of you? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And it says, "This is a work schedule for radio network No. 122."
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Now, we're going to review this document together. On the top of the large box that is divided there are a series of words, the first being "user," and I take it, Witness DB, that "user" refers to the user of the communications within the work plan; is that correct? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: The next column is the code name, and is this the code name that was given to the various users identified in the previous column? • A.: Yes. • Q.: So if we go in the user column, for example, to the third box down, we see the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade was given the code (15)name of Ruma, R-u-m-a; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, if we go down further, we see that the Ministry of the Interior, one of the reserve units of this operation, was given the code name Oblak; is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes.
• Q.: And then all of the participating units have been identified.
Now, there appears to be at the bottom something called a reserve user,
and that appears twice, and there are two code names next to reserve
user. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber the meaning of reserve user,
(25)and why reserve user was given code names?
• Q.: So this is a contingency plan. In the event additional units are needed in the operation, they have a code name and they can be inserted into the plan itself?
• A.: They need not be units should the need arise. It can be different
(25)types of users, for example, a radio relay interim station or one that
• Q.: But the term "reserve user" can be a unit of soldiers, a group of (5)soldiers; correct? • A.: Yes, and it can also refer to a series of other subjects or participants in this particular assignment. • Q.: I understand, Witness DB. Thank you. Now, you earlier said that all of these units that have been identified were given their code names (10)prior to the operation itself commencing. I take it, Witness DB, that the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps was fully aware that Ministry of the Interior units were going to participate in Operation Krivaja 95 as a reserve component; is that correct? • A.: You said that you assume that. (15) • Q.: I assume that General Krstic, who was the Chief of Staff and who in theory would have reviewed the communications plan, was aware that the Ministry of the Interior forces that are identified in this exhibit were going to participate in the attack on Srebrenica.
• A.: Let me clarify matters with respect to your question. Whenever an
(20)operation was planned for a certain area, whether it be combat operations,
a battle, or anything else, and I'm talking about tactical levels, whether
companies or battalions or brigades take part in that particular
operation, and whether the assignment is an attack, or whether it is to
search the terrain, or whether it is defence of the terrain, or whether it
(25)is reconnaissance or any other type of activity, every commander gave
• Q.: Witness DB, you have seen Krivaja 95, and the MUP is identified, along with the 1st Vlasenica Light Infantry Brigade, as a reserve unit. In Prosecutor's Exhibit 776 they are identified and given a code name. My question to you, Witness DB, was: Was General Krstic, in your opinion, (15)aware of the participation and role of the MUP in Krivaja 95?
• A.: I think he was not. May I explain that? May I explain why that
is my opinion? Because I have reviewed this plan. All these other things
do not belong to communications that you have given me. These code names
and this table are prepared by operations bodies, and they are special
(20)encryption documents that have to do with coded maps and the transmission
of information by encrypted signs. I spoke about all this before you gave
me this document. And anyway, Mr. Petrusic did not show it to me. All we
had was this as communications.
But let me answer your question. I know for a fact that we at the
(25)forward command post at the village of Pribicevac and in the villages of
• Q.: All right. So they were planned in the operation as it was (10)originally envisioned, MUP is identified again in the communications plan that was distributed to all of the participants, and my question is: Was General Krstic again aware of their participation and role in the plan prior to Krivaja 95 commencing? • A.: I don't know that really. (15) • Q.: All right. Now, let me turn to the next page of this document, and you should -- do you have that in B/C/S in front of you? It is a column starting in the upper left-hand corner with the upper box 102. JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, Mr. Harmon. I just want to ask the witness about what he meant by they were meant -- the MUP was planned as a (20)potential participant. If they are a potential participant, when they participate, would they be under the authority of General Krstic when they participate effectively?
• A.: Your Honour, what I can say is that on the basis of the order in
which it is stated, among others, that MUP forces are designated as
(25)reserve units, so the chief of communications made a plan accordingly.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. MR. HARMON: (10) • Q.: Witness, we've concluded with this document. I'm not sure the part that I wanted to refer to is included in this particular document. So we can move on. MR. HARMON: I'm finished with that, Cedric. Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, if you're starting a new line of (15)questions -- MR. HARMON: I am. JUDGE RIAD: -- we can make a break here. As I previously explained, I'm not trying to impose strict time limits, but in general, I will suggest that we resume after 45 minutes, which means at 40 minutes (20)past 12.00. And then we can continue for an hour, till 1.40, and then resume at 2.00 till 3.00. Of course, this is, as I said, flexible, because I don't want to interrupt a coherent line of questions. We can stop a little bit before or a little bit after, but without any abuse. Thank you. (25)
MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
--- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m. --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m. JUDGE RIAD: Please resume, Mr. Harmon. (5) MR. HARMON: Thank you, Judge Riad. • Q.: Witness DB, the MUP Special Police are part of the Ministry of the Interior, are they not? • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's Exhibit 185 and 186, (10)please, given to the witness. If they could be placed on the ELMO. If we could start with Prosecutor's exhibit -- let me see which number that is, Mr. Usher. That first one you have in your hand, Mr. Usher, I'm not sure of the exhibit number of that. THE USHER: 185. (15) MR. HARMON: 185 is placed on the ELMO. • Q.: Witness DB, do you recognise that man? • A.: I think I do. • Q.: Who is he? • A.: I think -- I cannot see the number on his sleeve, but I think it (20)could be General Ljubisa Borovcanin. • Q.: And what unit is he a member of? • A.: I don't know that, but I think that his name is linked to the special units that you mentioned. I'm not sure of that, but I think that his name is being linked to those units. (25)
• Q.: The Court has heard testimony, Witness DB, that this man was a
• A.: No. • Q.: Now, the Trial Chamber has heard evidence that the MUP Special (5)Police was in Potocari on the 11th. General Krstic testified to that fact. My question to you is, first, when you travelled through Potocari on the evening of the 11th and arrived in Bratunac, did you see members of the MUP Special Police? • A.: I don't remember. (10) • Q.: Are you aware, Witness DB, that the MUP Special Police was organising themselves in and around the area of Zuti Most, the Yellow Bridge, the bridge which you passed over? • A.: Regarding the participation of MUP units in the operation of Srebrenica, I know the following, if I may tell you what I know. (15) • Q.: Well, answer my question first, and then we may return to what you know, but ... • A.: Very well. I know that there were some people at the locality of Zuti Most, at the checkpoint which earlier was the defensive position of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade. I'm referring to the asphalt (20)road. And I know that as I was moving from Potocari towards Bratunac via Zuti Most, that I did see there some men. In my judgement, this must have been around 2130 hours. It was already dark. I do not remember whether they were just soldiers or only the police, or both soldiers and the police together. (25)
MR. HARMON: Now, if we could have, Mr. Usher, the next photograph
• Q.: In this photograph, Witness DB, do you see Mr. Borovcanin once again standing next to the man with the United Nations helmet on his head? • A.: I must admit that the picture on the monitor is rather hazy, and I (5)wouldn't dare to make a final judgement. • Q.: The Trial Chamber has seen evidence of MUP Special Police operating along the Bratunac-Milici road. There is film footage of this that has been presented to the Trial Chamber where Mr. Borovcanin, who is in the picture before you, and other members of his unit are along that (10)road. You travelled that road on the night of the 11th, Witness DB. Did you see members of the MUP Special Police along that road when you travelled it? • A.: I said in the -- I answered in the affirmative a question put by (15)Mr. Petrusic to me yesterday that moving from Bratunac towards Vlasenica, after 2300 hours on the 11th of July, on the road Bratunac-Kravica-Konjevic Polje, in several places I saw members wearing blue uniforms, and those were the uniforms of the MUP at the time. Now, whether when I was passing the Yellow Bridge, Zuti Most, (20)whether they were there also mixed together with soldiers or whether there were only soldiers there, I don't remember.
MR. HARMON: Could I have Exhibit 499A, the B/C/S version 499B
given to the witness. And 499A placed on the ELMO, and in the English
version, Mr. Usher, I would like page 3 placed on the ELMO. Mr. Usher, if
(25)the witness could be shown this page with the tank, in that page of the
• Q.: Witness DB, this is an article that was written -- it is dated the 21st of July, 1995, in a Belgrade publication. Its author is a gentleman (5)named Zoran Petrovic. The Trial Chamber has seen a film that was taken during the events in Potocari and Srebrenica throughout the days of the attack and the events that took place along the Bratunac-Milici road that was prepared by this very same author, Zoran Petrovic. Now, I'd like to direct your attention, please, Witness, to the (10)article that is in front of you in B/C/S. And if you would please refer to this section that I have highlighted and which I hope you can see from where you are, and read that to yourself. MR. HARMON: And Your Honours -- • Q.: Have you had a chance to read that, Witness DB? (15) • A.: You mean have I read it before? • Q.: This section of the article that I have directed your attention to. • A.: I have read it.
• Q.: Now, this portion that I would like to read into the record is as
(20)follows. This is on page 3:
"In less than three days of fighting, Mladic's forces reached the
suburbs of the enclave, and on the fourth day they had fully taken over
Srebrenica. After the main attack, RS MUP forces, commanded by Ljubisa
Borovcanin, struck along the Zuti List-Potocari line and were advancing
(25)toward Djogazi and Milacevici from the right side."
• A.: Yes, according to this article. Whoever reads this article would (5)come to that conclusion. • Q.: And the MUP special police that are referred to in this article are consistent with the Ministry of the Interior forces that are described in Krivaja 95 communications plan that you saw prior to adjourning for lunch? (10) • A.: I told you that the plan is one thing and the actual implementation quite another. We had an identical plan to this one for the Zepa operation, and immediately after the first day the Zvornik Brigade was pulled out of that operation, but its position in the plan remained. I don't know how you come to the conclusion that on the basis (15)of the communications plan, where MUP was planned, that that was this very unit. • Q.: Is there anything in this plan that indicates it is not, Witness DB? Anything in this communications plan that indicates that it is not?
• A.: I think that then, in this communications plan, it should have
(20)said "the special MUP units" if before the combat operation started it had
been known that that particular special unit would be participating,
because that was the only special MUP brigade, and then it would have been
included in the plan. If I may take the liberty of saying, when MUP was
mentioned in all our plans, the reference was to local public security
(25)stations in the local communities.
(5) • A.: When reserves are being regulated, reserves can be used for several options. They can be used to blockade a certain area, to establish control over a certain area, or simply for inclusion in combat operations after the main forces had accomplished their task. • Q.: We'll move to a different topic, Witness DB. (10) JUDGE RIAD: Just a second, Mr. Harmon. Before we leave the MUP members, I just want a clarification, because Witness DB, you mentioned that on the 11th of July, at 11.00 p.m., you saw, when you were moving from Bratunac to Vlasenica, you saw MUP members in blue uniform; is that right? (15) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: And then as you passed the Yellow Bridge, the Zuti Most, I think, which is, I suppose, at the same time, you don't remember having seen anything. They were in blue uniform? They were distinguishable from others or were they mixed up in a crowd which you (20)couldn't distinguish? You remember the first one, and this is linked with it. What made the difference?
• A.: Your Honours, allow me to explain. While I was moving from
Pribicevac via Srebrenica and Potocari to Bratunac, about 2100 hours I
passed through Zuti Most. This is quite a different route. On that Zuti
(25)Most, which is close to the town of Srebrenica, or Potocari, which is
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. (15) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Finally, Witness DB, it's your position that in the Srebrenica attack plan, the reserve forces of the MUP that are designated here were traffic police; is that right?
• A.: I did not say that, as far as I recall. I didn't say it was the
(20)traffic police. I have knowledge that the unit which was -- which has
been identified, that it was part of the Srebrenica operation, and that it
came one or two days prior to the military fall of Srebrenica, which means
that that was around the 10th of July, and that it did have some
assignments in the area ranging from Bratunac, that is to say, from the
(25)north to the south of the enclave.
(15) • Q.: Did you talk to the signalsman from the MUP Special Police? • A.: No. No, because they never had within their composition the kind of devices that we have, and I didn't see him at all. • Q.: What kind of devices did they have? • A.: I think that they mostly used devices on the UKT wave band, ultra (20)short, and to facilitate interpretation, these were known as the Motorolas because of the firm that produced those devices, Motorola.
• Q.: Let's turn to a different topic. Let's turn to the forward
command post and the location of Pribicevac, and what I'd like to ask you
first off is, this was a village, wasn't it? This wasn't a swath of
(25)territory cut out of a virgin forest for purposes of the forward command
• A.: It was a former Serbian village which in the spring of 1992 had been burnt and destroyed. • Q.: Now, when you got to Pribicevac, did you happen to see a man by (5)the name of Vukota Vukovic at that location? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you tell me what his position was? • A.: Colonel Vukota Vukovic was on behalf of the corps command sent to the Pribicevac area, Pribicevac area. I think that that was a year or so (10)before the Krivaja-5 operation, and I do believe that he had the assignment of coordinating the defence positions of the Skelani Battalion and the Bratunac Brigade in the area. • Q.: And was he the commander of the Skelani Separate Battalion? • A.: No. (15) • Q.: Was there a commander of the Skelani Separate Battalion by the name of Vukota Vukovic? • A.: No. MR. HARMON: Okay. Now, let me first of all start with Prosecutor's Exhibit 821. If the witness -- Mr. Usher, if the witness (20)could be shown the B/C/S version and the English version placed on the ELMO.
• Q.: Witness, take a moment to examine this document, and let me know
when you have finished your review.
Now, the content of this document, Witness, is not important;
(25)however, the captions in this document are important. In the upper
(5) • A.: Our rules and regulations, the ones that were in force with respect to the grouping of forces, implied the establishment of combat groups and tactical groups. Combat groups are of a smaller composition, not more than the rank of battalion, and they are established for the execution of a limited combat operation. (10)Tactical groups are groups of the armed forces of a battalion-type composition, and they are a provisional composition having the task of uniting and coordinating action of -- the action of several battalions or several brigades. I think that to all intents and purposes, the Pribicevac Tactical (15)Group did exist, precisely with the task of coordinating action of what -- the action of one to two battalions of the Bratunac Brigade, I think in the area ranging from Kvarc or Pribicevac via Kvarc towards Zuti Most, and the operations of the Skelani Battalion which covered the area to the left and right of the river Zeleni Jadar, and that it served as a coordinator. (20)And as the commander of that tactical group at Pribicevac in the period that I mentioned, that Colonel Vukota Vukovic was sent there to command, from the command of the Drina Corps.
MR. HARMON: Now, if we could turn to the next exhibit which is
Prosecutor's Exhibit 822, and if this Exhibit could be placed under seal.
(25)And Your Honour, if we could go into private session in respect of this.
THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.
JUDGE RIAD: Yes, let's go.
THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session. (20) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Now, after you left the Pribicevac Forward Command Post, it continued to exist, didn't it? • A.: Are we talking about the 11th of July now?
• Q.: We're talking about after you left on the 2nd of November, 1994.
(25)Did the Pribicevac Forward Command Post continue to exist?
MR. HARMON: Could we turn to the next Exhibit, please, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 824. Mr. Usher, if you could place the first page of (5)the English version on the ELMO, please. • Q.: Now, Witness, this is a document that is dated the 4th of June, 1995. It is signed by the commander of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic. And in the top part, left-hand side of the document, you can see that this document was issued from the (10)Pribicevac Forward Command Post on the 4th of June, 1995, and it is an order for the deployment of units in the defence of the region of the 3rd Infantry Battalion. What can you tell us, Witness DB, about the Pribicevac Forward Command Post of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade?
• A.: This is a time period -- that is to say, it's the beginning of
(15)June, 1995, and according to my recollections, I said yesterday that I was
there at the beginning of June, when in that particular region
[inaudible]
communication was established for Zeleni Jadar, Jasenova, and Podravanje,
and placed under the control of our own forces, and quite simply by
rounding off and encircling that part of the territory and placing it
(20)under our control, and this was determined by the peace agreement for that
particular period. I had to be there at the time because we're dealing
with the beginning of June.
And these assignments were compiled by Colonel Blagojevic, the
commander of the Bratunac Brigade, and he probably at that time had
(25)reached Pribicevac and himself had established his own forward command
• Q.: Witness, paragraph 4 reads as follows: "The commander of the 3rd (10)Infantry Battalion shall incorporate this company in the battalion's command and control system, and with the assistance of the brigade's chief of communication organise wire and radio communication with this company." Now, once again there's reference to communications at this location; am I correct? (15) • A.: Yes. Yes, you're right, communications are mentioned here. • Q.: Now, let's turn to the last document in this series; it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 823. MR. HARMON: Actually, I see, Your Honours, and for my friends at the Defence bench, this is out of sequence. This is a document that is (20)one month earlier than the previous document.
• Q.: Now, Witness, this also is a document that was issued by General
Zivanovic on the 12th of May, 1995, to the command of the 1st Bratunac
Light Infantry Brigade and to the Skelani Independent Infantry Battalion.
And if you turn to the order itself, paragraph 3 of the order -- which is
(25)on page 2, Mr. Usher, of the English version -- paragraph 3 reads, "The
• A.: That's not what it says. • Q.: That's what the English translation of it says. Perhaps you had a -- • A.: Please. In the official document that I have, and it is a copy of (10)the original, it says that telephone and courier communication should be secured, not packet communication, with the commander of the 3rd Battalion of the Light Infantry Brigade and not with the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade. MR. HARMON: Well, we will have this submitted once again, Your (15)Honours, to the language service section that translated it in the first place, and we can resolve that issue. We stand by correct and accurate translations, and given that's the status of this particular document, I will not ask him any additional questions on it. JUDGE RIAD: All right, Mr. Harmon. (20) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Witness DB, so when you arrived at the Pribicevac Forward Command Post and you saw Colonel Vukota Vukovic, was there still a tactical group at that location, or was there still a Bratunac Forward Command Post at that location? (25)
• A.: What date are we talking about now?
• A.: As far as the Bratunac Brigade is concerned, I seem to feel that for the most part at that forward command post, that is to say, in that (5)particular village where the command of one battalion of the Bratunac Brigade was located, that I did see Colonel Blagojevic. I seem to remember that. And on the basis of that, I am able to conclude that for the Krivaja 95 operation, he established a forward command post of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade at Pribicevac in the command of his (10)battalion. He formed the forward command post of his brigade. I assume that that was so because on several occasions I saw him at that command. Whether in that same period Colonel Vukota Vukovic received the assignment to focus his activities on the Skelani Battalion, and I seem to feel that at that time because commanders were frequently replaced in that (15)independent battalion, a corresponding officer did not exist there, and the possibility -- it is possible that Colonel Vukota received an oral order and was designated to direct the operations of that battalion, because I do know that at Pribicevac after combat activity had started, he did not appear. He was constantly with the Skelani Battalion. (20) • Q.: Did you ever visit Colonel -- sorry, did you ever visit Colonel Vukovic's command centre? • A.: You mean Pribicevac? • Q.: Yes. • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Where was it located in respect of your forward command post
• A.: Can you repeat the question, please? • Q.: You said you visited Colonel Vukovic's command centre at Pribicevac. How far away was it from the communications centre of the (5)forward command post of the Drina Corps? • A.: 100 metres. • Q.: Did Colonel Vukovic have communications facilities at his disposal? • A.: He had in his office where he stayed one military inductor (10)telephone, which he could reach the command of the 1st Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade which was 100 metres away from him. He could reach their switchboard. That switchboard had connections to certain defence positions integrated in the Pribicevac tactical group. These defence positions were connected in one series so when you called one of the (15)positions, all the telephones on all positions rang, and that was done in order to economise with the field telephone cable. I think that was a pretty secure and reliable communication which was available to Colonel Vukota within his tactical group, and I believe that he must have had another alternative radio communication with at (20)least two or three key positions, in particular, I believe with the Jasenova area. That is my recollection of the organisation of communications for as long as I was with the command of the Pribicevac tactical group.
• Q.: Did he have the ability to communicate with the Bratunac
(25)headquarters, the Bratunac command in Bratunac, from his location?
• Q.: Did he have the ability by his radio system to communicate to the Drina Corps headquarters? • A.: Not through radio communication. He could reach them through (5)radio relay communication. • Q.: Now, you left the forward command post of the Drina Corps on the 11th of July in your communications van, and you went to Bratunac. At the time you left, was Colonel Vukovic's position, his command post that you have just testified about, still in existence when you left? (10) • A.: After these combat operations had developed, together with the entire situation on that part of the front line from the 5th to the 11th, as the army moved on, it was followed by logistics and communications. Colonel Vukota, in view of the fact that he did not come to Pribicevac but instead spent all his time with the Skelani Battalion, and (15)I personally am aware that after the Srebrenica operation was completed, with that unit or a part of those units he took part in the attack -- or rather, demonstrative actions towards Zepa from north to the south. I therefore don't think that he returned to Pribicevac. • Q.: Let me rephrase the question, Witness DB. When you left (20)Pribicevac, was Colonel Vukovic's command centre still there on the 11th of July?
• A.: I left on the 11th of July. And speaking in military terms, in
view of the development of the situation, I believe that this command
centre had no reason to exist whatsoever because Colonel Vukota was far
(25)away from it. All the communications were withdrawn by Colonel Blagojevic
• Q.: Do you know that for a fact? (5) • A.: I am speaking according to my information and based on what I know about the development of the military situation because all the units had gone forward, and that communication served nobody at that location any more. • Q.: So your testimony is not based on your personal observations; is (10)that correct? Did you see the command centre of Colonel Vukovic leave before you left on the night of the 11th? That's the point I'm trying to get to. It was 100 metres away from you. • A.: Yes. At this command post there was Colonel Blagojevic with his forward command post, and I personally saw Colonel Blagojevic with his (15)signalsman moving and following his army on the directions of attack of his units. And based on that, I conclude that as soon as the army left and Colonel Blagojevic left with his signalsman, there was no longer any need for communications from Pribicevac and no need for it. • Q.: Let's turn to a different subject, Witness DB. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Would that be a right time now for a break? MR. HARMON: It would be fine, Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. We will break until 2.00. --- Recess taken at 1.45 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.04 p.m. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Yes, Mr. Harmon. Proceed, please.
• Q.: Witness, before we turn our attention to this particular exhibit, as I understand, the communications centre of the forward command post (5)that you set up at Pribicevac, it was essentially a mobile communications centre with the communications equipment located in a van or a truck. Do I understand that correctly? • A.: The communications centre at the forward command post of the Drina Corps was mobile and was on a truck, that is, on a vehicle, and from that (10)vehicle, using a cable, we could install a telephone at a smaller or greater distance, and radio transmitters could be moved around within a 15-kilometre circle, and we would usually take them out, because those who commanded normally didn't get into a vehicle to issue commands from a vehicle except on rare occasions, when they wanted to use secure (15)communications. • Q.: And with your communication, you could communicate with the Main Staff, with the command of the Drina Corps, and with the combat units participating in the operation of Krivaja 95; am I correct? • A.: Yes, you're right, with the proviso that we were able, also (20)through the communications centre of the Drina Corps, to communicate with all the other participants, that is, the entire outside world. • Q.: So you could communicate through the Drina Corps command in Vlasenica with the commands of the various brigades within the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps? (25)
• A.: Yes, with their headquarters.
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: I don't want to spend a lot of time on this document, Witness, but focusing on your mobile communications centre, you said that you had radio devices. And if you would turn to the section of this plan that deals with the means of communication. In the B/C/S version, Witness, you will see a chart that looks like this. Can you see what I'm holding in my (10)hand, Witness? • A.: Can you tell me which page would that be? • Q.: I can't tell you, because ... Do you see the chart that deals with the technical details of the radio devices that were available to the JNA? Well, Witness, if it's not in there, then we will -- I'll ask you some (15)questions about the English version of this, which is found on page 9 of the ELMO. I apologise, Witness, if it's not there. Let me proceed, because I don't want to take too much time on this issue. On the ELMO, Witness, there appears a figure that was taken from this manual. It is figure 63 and it is the technical details of some (20)radio devices. Can you tell me: In your mobile communications centre that you established in Pribicevac, what were the names of the radio devices that you had available to you? • A.: The one in line 4, where it says RUP-12.
• Q.: And below that there are three additional devices. Did you have
(25)any of those devices?
JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Visnjic, do you have anything to ... MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No. I would like to remind the witness that it is on pages 336 and -- 396 and 397 in the B/C/S version. (5) MR. HARMON: I thank my colleague for his assistance in this. • Q.: Do you have that before you, Witness? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Beside the RUP-12 at the forward command post, did you have any other radio device that was available to you? (10) • A.: I would like to clarify one technical matter. We had a device called RU-2/2K. It is basically the same as the one in line 4 which I had indicated earlier. It operates in the same frequency range, it has the same number of channels, and two of them can work together, can communicate between them, the only difference being that this device, (15)which is not in this table, can have built into it another device for the protection of speech, for scrambling, and we used that type of device in the command network for communicating to -- commands to orders to subordinated units. • Q.: So Witness, am I right the RUP-12 and the RU-2/2K is a tactical (20)communications device that has a rather short range of between 8 and 12 kilometres?
• A.: Yes. It says in the rules 8 to 12 kilometres; however, deviations
are possible here as well. If you read the manual for this device, you
will see that the range can be increased with lower frequency -- can be
(25)increased with higher frequencies and vice versa, unless there are
• Q.: In addition to radios, did you have a radio telephone device in the mobile communications centre? • A.: No. (10) • Q.: What other communications devices did you have in your mobile communications centre besides the two radios that you have described? Can you just give me a list? • A.: We had telephone devices, that is to say, telephones, field telephones, induction-type telephones of the military kind. We had field (15)telephone switchboards with ten numbers. Furthermore, we had coded teletype machine devices, teletypewriters: the T100, a mechanical type, or the teletype ETL1, an electronic one. We had devices for the protection of written information which is called KZU31, and devices for the protection of oral information, the KZU61 device and KZU63. And with the (20)relay devices, we had a radio relay device which was referred to as RRU1. • Q.: Now, with the RUP-12, could you communicate outside of the immediate area of the combat theatre? Could you communicate to the headquarters of the Drina Corps? • A.: No. (25)
• Q.: What was the device that you used to communicate with the Drina
• A.: RRU1. • Q.: And is the RRU1 a radio, or does the communication that emanates (5)from a RRU1 between the forward command post and the Drina Corps command consist of a radio beam? • A.: Yes, the frequency range is between 2 and 300 megahertz. I don't know the exact figure, but basically they are beamed radio waves. They are beamed. They are radio waves that are beamed. And we had this type (10)of communication with the help of a stationary junction, Veliki Zep, and it is from that area, both from Srebrenica and from Zepa, that radio relay line was not a direct one, but it was beamed via the radio relay junction at Veliki Zep which is close to Han Pijesak. • Q.: So the signal would go from you to Veliki Zep, be relayed from (15)Veliki Zep to the command at Vlasenica, correct? • A.: Yes, that's right. • Q.: Now, you also had a teleprinter. You described the names of those teleprinters -- actually, before I -- let me withdraw that question, and let me show the witness one additional exhibit before I get to (20)teleprinters. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 826, and if I could have the witness examine this communications device. Witness DB, in this Prosecutor's exhibit there is a man with a black uniform, and he has a radio communication device on his back. Can you identify that radio device? (25)
• A.: Although I can't see the other side well enough where we attached
(5) • Q.: All right. Thank you very much. Now, let's turn to teleprinters. Can you tell us very, very briefly about a teleprinter and how it communicates from point A, the forward command post, to the command at the Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica? (10)
• A.: The answer in the technical sense would be a little more complex.
I'll try and make it as clear as possible, but please bear with me. In
order to have teleprinter communication from the forward command posts, we
had that with the use of just one channel which we established with the
radio relay device, the RRU1 device. That means that while the
(15)teleprinter was working, and either receiving or sending out messages,
during that period of time you can't talk to anybody else.
The teleprinter is a device which has as its -- which has a print
board, and its purpose is to type out certain information or a message,
and that information uses a paper tape or sheet of paper coded for each
(20)letter. It is 17 and a half millimetres wide, so it is still an open
text. Later on, that tape is introduced into a device for the coding of
that written information, encryption, and a communication is established
with the participant to whom we wish to send out that information, a
button is pressed, the start button is depressed, and the tape then passes
(25)through and is locked or coded at the same time and goes to the other
• Q.: Now, did you have one teleprinter in your van, or did you have more than one? THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please. MR. HARMON: (10) • Q.: Did you have one teleprinter device in your mobile communications van when you were in Pribicevac and Zepa, or did you have more than one? • A.: Well, based on logic, we probably had at least two teleprinters, because if one were out of order, we were able to send out messages with the other. So that was logical. That was the logical back-up system that (15)we had when we were on assignments of this kind. • Q.: While you were at Pribicevac and Zepa, did you have breakdowns with those teleprinters?
• A.: Those teleprinters function exclusively on 220 volts, whereas the
other devices can function using 12 volts, a 12-volt system. So there
(20)were breakdowns from time to time, but they were not as frequent and not
as important to upset control and command, because I know that I was not
criticised for my communications system, although breakdowns could occur
from time to time, either on our side or at the stationary junction or at
the ultimate destination, the communications centre of the Drina Corps.
(25)So the number of -- the human factor is multiplied by three there, because
• Q.: Let me read to you a portion of General Krstic's testimony that was taken on the 31st of October, and I'm referring to page 6673 of the transcript, lines 5 through 19 of the English version. This was a question asked by my colleague, Mr. McCloskey: (10)"Q. While you were in the forward command post, did you have the capability of receiving orders like this in a secure manner?" And this was a teletype document. "A. Yes, I did. (15) • Q.: How did that work? • A.: I can't describe to you how it worked. There is a communications centre with officers and soldiers of the communications department, work led by their commander, the communications commander, battalion -- I'm sorry -- (20)battalion. • Q.: Is it fair to say that the VRS at that time had the capability of teletyping an order like this, that is, typing in the information and sending it via teletype in encrypted teletype? (25)
• A.: Yes, it did, but there were some problems, and the teletype
• A.: I remember that very often my superior commanders and their assistants were warned by me. I warned them, cautioned them, and asked that longer reports with a number of pages of -- typed pages, if possible, (10)to send them by courier link, because if you want to hand over just two pages of a typed-out text, then via the teleprinter and via the radio relay waves, this takes five minutes. There are orders, certain orders, which are longer than two typed-out pages, and then there is the possibility that just one interference signal, which lasts for just one (15)second, breaks down the whole system of reception, and then you have to ask the telegramme repeated in its entirety. Or the opposite side, quite simply, as this message is long-winded and takes a long time, succeeds in decoding it, and that is why teleprinters are exclusively intended for the transmission of important, urgent, and short messages. And I'm speaking (20)on the basis of my recollections, and I have no reason at this point in time to say how good my work was at that time, but as far as I remember, those interruptions were not very frequent for them to be -- to upset the control and command system in its global sense.
• Q.: Let's talk about couriers for a minute. At both the Pribicevac
(25)Forward Command Post and the forward command post that you used in Zepa,
• A.: During the time I spent at the forward command post of Pribicevac, in view of the fact that it is at quite a distance from the command of the (5)Bratunac Brigade itself and a good deal greater from the command of the Drina Corps, a good deal further off from the Drina Corps, it would not be a rational link to use a courier, and I'm quite sure that as far as the communication centre, we did not organise it, and I can only assume that nobody else in the capacity of a courier from the forward command post at (10)Pribicevac did not carry any written messages, or oral ones, for that matter. By moving to the forward command post at Krivace, as that was very close to the command of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska -- I don't know exactly how close, but it was four, five, or six (15)kilometres, thereabouts, and some 30-odd kilometres from the command of the Drina Corps -- I, as a communications man, did not plan to have any courier communication, but it is quite possible that certain messages in written form, via some other individuals, drivers, for example, from the staff command, or by some transport coming back from the logistics base, (20)might have carried information of this kind. But we adhered to the rule that the safest communication was a courier communication, in fact, and that couriers should be used whenever possible, whenever it was indicated.
• Q.: I'm sorry. I'm a little confused by your answer. Did you or did
you not use courier communication from the Pribicevac Forward Command Post
(25)and the Zepa Forward Command Post?
• Q.: Now, when courier messages were received at the forward command post, were they logged, were they entered, or were the courier packages (10)given directly to the person who was the intended recipient of those courier parcels? • A.: According to the rules and regulations, and we had an organised system of courier communications of the Drina Corps for certain messages which were not urgent and important, couriers bringing the message or (15)messages would go to the dispatch unit and the dispatcher would sign for the reception of certain messages, sign that he had received them. So according to the rules, every message or document going by courier must have -- must be registered in the dispatch centre. MR. HARMON: We're going to change our subject again, and if I (20)could have the witness provided with Exhibit 750.
• Q.: Witness, the B/C/S version portion that I would like you to take a
look at is found on page 37 of the document. And this is a document that
is an analysis of the combat readiness and the activities of the army of
the Republika Srpska in 1992. This was prepared by the army of the
(25)Republika Srpska, and the date on this is April of 1993.
• A.: Yes. We had, for example, a unit that ranked with the radio (10)reconnaissance platoon, which in the professional sense was subordinated to the intelligence department, just as the Communications Battalion in the professional sense was subordinated to the communications chief, chief of communications. • Q.: Now, I'm going to read to you the -- actually, Witness, this might (15)be of better assistance to you. If you take my copy, I've highlighted the portions that I'm going to read. MR. HARMON: And we are on page 41, I'm sorry, Mr. Usher, of the English version.
• Q.: Now, I'm referring to the first highlighted area, and I will read
(20)this to you, "On account --" starting in the second sentence of the second
paragraph. "On account of the above and a number of other difficulties,
it was decided to form radio reconnaissance platoons (RIVs) in the corps
to engage in electronic reconnaissance, interception, interference,
misinforming and deceiving the enemy using his system of communications.
(25)By the end of 1992, the platoons had been trained to intercept, identify,
MR. HARMON: It is found on page 42, Mr. Usher, toward the bottom. • Q.: "All 16 RIGs were connected to corps intelligence and security (5)bodies by one or more communication channels as well as to the tactical and operational group in whose zone they worked." The next paragraph, "The processing and distribution of intelligence obtained by EI is carried out by intelligence squads in the corps and the air force and the anti-aircraft defence, fully applying (10)crypto-protection measures." The next paragraph, "The available technical, personnel, and material potentials make possible the successful simultaneous surveillance of between 50 and 60 radio channels at all levels of over 600 linked up channels. We cannot listen to about 100 channels because of (15)crypto-protection measures applied or technical inadequacy of our equipment." Now, this is in 1992, Witness, and one can see from this description provided by the VRS of its activities in 1992, that they had collected -- that these groups were responsible for collecting 70 per cent (20)of the intelligence gathered by the VRS, and it appears from this description that this operation and procedure was successful and relied upon by the Main Staff and the corps. Do you agree with me with this, or do you have any comment that you'd like to make in light of what I've read? (25)
• A.: This is an analysis of combat readiness of the army of Republika
• Q.: Now, the data that was collected by the radio reconnaissance groups went to a particular entity within the sphere of operation of the intelligence operation of the corps staff, specifically, the 4th Radio (10)Reconnaissance Platoon in the Drina Corps; am I correct? • A.: The Drina Corps had a radio reconnaissance platoon. I don't know whether it was called the 4th because there was only one, but it had a radio reconnaissance platoon. MR. HARMON: And Your Honours, in the Prosecutor's Exhibit 28, one (15)can see that the 4th Radio Reconnaissance Platoon is found in the box dealing with the intelligence section, the chief of which is Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, and the assistant in entity is Major Pavle Golic. • Q.: Now, you were in the army throughout the war. Would the radio -- (20)I see my colleague is on his feet, so I will ... JUDGE RIAD: Yes.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Your Honours, I don't know, it
remained unclear whether this was a question of Mr. Harmon, this reference
to the two officers who were representatives of this radio reconnaissance
(25)unit, or it is a claim of Mr. Harmon's.
MR. HARMON: Well, I will answer the concerns of my colleague. I was merely pointing out the location in the structure where the 4th Radio (5)Reconnaissance Platoon is. It falls within the ambit of the intelligence section whose head is Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Kosoric. JUDGE RIAD: And Golic is the assistant, or vice versa? MR. HARMON: Let me ask this witness if he knows because we had testimony on this point previously. (10) • Q.: But do you know Lieutenant -- I'm sorry, Major Pavle Golic? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What was his role in the intelligence section? • A.: He was in the intelligence sector, but I don't know what his role was. But I wish to say that the two officers you mentioned were not (15)commanders of the radio reconnaissance platoon. The commander of that platoon was the captain, and this radio reconnaissance platoon, professionally speaking was subordinated -- responsible to the intelligence organ and provided information to the intelligence organ. • Q.: Okay. Now, Witness DB, the 4th Radio Reconnaissance Platoon had (20)its groups within the Drina Corps area of responsibility, it collected radio intercept information, and it forwarded that information to the intelligence section, did it not? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: In addition to the 4th Radio Reconnaissance Platoon that operated
(25)in the Drina Corps area of operation, in other core areas there were
• A.: Yes. • Q.: And they didn't collect the information merely to collect the (5)information; they collected the information in order to share it with the relevant branches that may potentially be affected by that sensitive information, correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: So if another corps area was intercepting information that related (10)to, for example, the operations of the Drina Corps, that sensitive information would be sent down to the Drina Corps, to the intelligence section of the Drina Corps? • A.: Quite logical. • Q.: Okay. Now, do you know Colonel Kosoric, Lieutenant Colonel (15)Svetozar Kosoric? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And do you know what his relationship was to General Krstic? • A.: You mean in the military relationship, or some other relationship? • Q.: In some other relationship. (20) • A.: You mean private, personal, family relationship? • Q.: Yes, that's correct. • A.: They are related. • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric is General Krstic's brother-in-law, isn't he? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric was there the whole time, but my -- (5)from my recollection, he had greater freedom to leave that forward command post. • Q.: So he left from time to time? • A.: Yes, meaning that he didn't spend as much time as I did on the forward command post every day. (10) • Q.: And in Zepa, Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Kosoric was likewise at the forward command posts that were established at the Zepa operation, correct? • A.: Yes. He was at the forward command post for the Zepa operation. • Q.: And did he remain in Zepa throughout the period of time of that (15)operation? • A.: I can only say that, for instance, he would not spend as much time as I would during the day at the forward command post -- at the command post. His job was not to stay at the command post all the time as I was supposed to, and that would be my answer to your question. (20) • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric continued to have obligations as the chief of intelligence for the Drina Corps while he was at both of those command posts, forward command post, correct? • A.: I think so.
• Q.: So is it fair to assume, Witness DB, that he was informed of
(25)intelligence developments while he was out of the headquarters?
• Q.: When he was outside of the command in Vlasenica, he continued with his responsibilities as the chief of intelligence of the Drina Corps, and (5)I assume, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that he continued to be informed by his subordinates of relevant and important intelligence information. • A.: Well, if those were his orders to them, and if he insisted to be kept informed of all the developments while he was outside the command of (10)the corps, or to give -- to keep informed his deputy, or if such information was particularly important, important enough to be given personally to the commander, then they would have done so. If he had ordered them to send him information wherever he was at the time, then they would have done so. But perhaps they might have done so and (15)forwarded the information to his deputy at the command. MR. HARMON: Judge Riad, we're going to stop at 3.00, are we? JUDGE RIAD: Do you have any other suggestion? MR. HARMON: I have four exhibits I'd like to go through with this witness and I will try to be as quick as I can with them, or we can (20)adjourn now and I can review them tomorrow morning with the witness. JUDGE RIAD: I prefer that last option, because I prefer that we proceed in some kind of coherent series of questions. So I don't want to stop you in the middle of anything.
MR. HARMON: It won't be stopping me in the middle, but I would
(25)not want to be stopped with two documents into this and lose the thread of
JUDGE RIAD: So how much time do you need now? MR. HARMON: I would say I need ten minutes with these exhibits and we would be required to go over. (5) JUDGE RIAD: I'll give you 12. MR. HARMON: I appreciate it, Judge, and I will accept. If I could have four exhibits given to the usher. They are exhibits 364/12. And actually, Judge, I see this is a document that is under seal and will require a private session, so my 12 minutes may not be (10)enough time getting in and out of private session. So perhaps if we can adjourn now, I can resolve this matter in 12 minutes or 15 minutes tomorrow morning. JUDGE RIAD: We will be having enough time tomorrow morning. MR. HARMON: Yes. (15) JUDGE RIAD: How much time do you expect to be in need of tomorrow? MR. HARMON: I think I have not progressed as quickly as I had hoped and I may need the complete day tomorrow. JUDGE RIAD: Complete day? (20) MR. HARMON: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: We'll give you a complete day. Thank you. I think we'll adjourn till tomorrow morning, 9.20. I hope we can have good news about General Krstic's health, and I request that Mr. Petrusic can inform us tomorrow morning. We are adjourned (25)
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.58 p.m., to
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