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/ Colormap • Page 7344 • {1/82} (1)Monday 20 November 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court] --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, the Office of the Prosecutor, the counsel for Defence. Good morning, General Krstic. I think that today we will be continuing the testimony of General Krstic, but I see that Mr. McCloskey has something to say. But I think it (10)would be Mr. Petrusic's turn. In any event, Mr. McCloskey, you have the floor.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, thank you. Good morning.
There is a brief matter that the team felt was important to try
and clear up, if possible, regarding the end of the testimony of General
(15)Krstic. And what I'm referring to is there was an exchange that I had
with Mr. Petrusic, and General Krstic also entered into it briefly,
regarding -- there was a suggestion that the Defence had requested
personal items from the Prosecution and that they had not received certain
personal items, including, as you recall, General Krstic mentioned he
(20)had not received his mother's death certificate. And Dean Manning has
since returned, who is the investigator that handled those personal items,
and I would like to just provide you with some documents to show you what
occurred in that exchange shortly after General Krstic's arrest.
If I could first direct the Court's attention to what we have
(25)marked OTP Exhibit 836/1, and to summarise, this is a brief report that
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Mr. Petrusic, have you any comments to make? It seems to me that (15)either these documents have been returned to you, to General Krstic, or they are in the possession of the Registrar. Have you any comments to make?
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Good morning, Mr. President, Your
Honours. Good morning, my learned friends from the Prosecution.
(20)It is hard to make any comments because we received this list only
a few minutes prior to the beginning of the hearing. Perhaps we need to
look through the list with General Krstic. I am recalled of our last
sitting when a dispute arose over a telephone directory, and that is when
I intervened, claiming that that telephone booklet has not been returned.
(25)But now looking through the list, it is very difficult to say whether it
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps you could include Mr. Christian Rohde from the Registry who could help you to resolve this problem, because after all, this is a problem that you need to deal with. So we will not spend any more time on it, except if there really is a (10)problem, which I think is not the case. I see Mr. McCloskey is still on his feet. Do you have anything more to add on this matter? MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. I will sit down.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. Then you may be
(15)seated for the moment.
So we're going to resume our work as agreed, that is, the
testimony of General Krstic today, and at the end of the testimony, we
will resume with the witnesses. Perhaps it would be fair to tell the
Prosecutor so that they can prepare that as we are going to hear other
(20)witnesses, you must be ready to be very concise and concrete in your
examination, which means to act in pursuance with the provisions of Rule
90, which you are very familiar with, which says that the
cross-examination, I'm lost for the moment -- in any event, this is the
question of the cross-examination not going beyond the scope of the
(25)examination-in-chief. I know that we are flexible in that respect, but
(10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could I ask the usher for Exhibit 428, Prosecutor's Exhibit 428, and D25. This is a map. I don't know whether the Prosecution have this map. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic is referring to Exhibit D25, I think. (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] So as not to waste time, Mr. Usher, would you be kind enough to give Mr. Harmon a copy of this exhibit. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
WITNESS: RADISLAV KRSTIC
[Resumed] (20) • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: Generally, according to the order for combat operations envisaged by Operation Krivaja 95, the task was to narrow down the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa. So would you please tell us briefly whether that was, indeed, the task or, rather, the aim of Operation Krivaja 95? (25)
• A.: Yes, that was the goal of the Operation Krivaja 95.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think there seems to be a (5)problem with the ELMO. We are not having the picture on the monitor. No one seems to be having it. There's a problem. Perhaps it needs to be switched on. I don't know. Has the technical booth tested the equipment prior to the beginning of hearing, Madam Registrar? (10) THE REGISTRAR: Every morning before we begin we always check the equipment, and there were no problems this morning. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But we still have work to do and it's not working. Can the question be resolved, please. JUDGE RIAD: I think it's on the wrong channel. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In any event, the picture is a little bit like the weather here. It doesn't seem to have the proper colours, as far as I can see. So let's look and read it, if we can. Mr. Petrusic, let's try and proceed. • A.: [Marks] (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] If this picture is acceptable, and if the technical booth says this is the best that they can do, shall I continue? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. General Krstic is always doing his work. We just need to be told what it is he's doing. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Yes, indeed.
• A.: The aim of the Operation Krivaja 95 was for the units engaged in (5)the operation to reach this line Kak -- • Q.: Could you please move up to the microphone. • A.: Kak, Alibegovac, Zivkovo Brdo, Banja Guber, Divljakinje, Predova. • Q.: Was that the narrow area that the enclave should have been reduced to, according to the order? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Will you please put your initials using the same marker that you used to draw those lines. • A.: [Marks] MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could I ask the usher to leave the (15)map there and to place Exhibit 463 on the ELMO. Leave the map, please. Leave the map. Put it on top of the map. Yes, that's fine. • Q.: So we now have an exhibit, your order issued on the 13th of July, 1995, at 2030, ordering the search of the terrain along the line Ravni Buljim, Zvijezda, Siljato Brdo, Slapovici, along the right bank of the (20)Jadar River, Domastar [phoen], Zeleni Jadar. You are giving assignments to the Bratunac Brigade, the Skelani Battalion, and the Milici Brigade; is that correct? • A.: Yes. What you have just read is the task for the Bratunac Brigade. (25)
• Q.: Could you, on this same map, draw the line along which the
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you please tell us the circles that you have made have the lines, what features are they? And these are the assignments of the (5)Bratunac Brigade. • A.: Yes, the Bratunac Brigade was to have carried out the search of the terrain along the Ravni Buljim, the Zvijezda feature, Siljato Brdo, the village of Slapovici inclusive, along the right bank of the Zeleni Jadar River, not counting the factory compound of Zeleni Jadar. (10) • Q.: In relation to that line, was a direction of movement southwards? • A.: Yes, in relation to this line, they were moving in the southerly direction searching the terrain towards the area of deployment towards Zepa, and the area of use of that Brigade was Podovan [phoen], Stublic, (15)Brestovik. • Q.: Please, will you please your initials on that line. • A.: [Marks] MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For the transcript, for the record, let me say that according to the order of the 13th of July, 1995, as shown (20)in Exhibit 25, this is the direction for the search of the terrain by the Bratunac Brigade marked in red marker.
• Q.: In paragraph 2 of the same order, you are giving an assignment to
the Skelani Battalion. Will you please indicate in the same way as you
have done for the brigade their direction of movement? General, will you
(25)use the same marker because it all applies to the one and the same order;
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Krstic, if possible, could you tell us the locations that you are going to mark because in that way we can follow. Very well. Thank you. (5) • A.: So the Skelani Battalion was assigned to search the terrain to the village of Slapovici, not including the village itself; then Kostur, Zedz, in this direction. It's not indicated on the map. The line of separation in relation to the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade was the right bank of the Zeleni Jadar River, so this is this area here. (10) • Q.: Will you mark it with a circle, please. So in this area, this is the area where the Skelani Independent Battalion is operating. • A.: Yes, the Independent Battalion Skelani. • Q.: So will you please right down the word Skelani, SB Skelani. • A.: [Marks] (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Again, for the record, under paragraph 2 of the same order, dated the 13th of July, 1995, the direction of action by the Skelani Independent Battalion has been marked on Exhibit 25 with the letters SBS having been indicated. • Q.: Under paragraph 3, you are giving an order to the Milici Brigade (20)as well. Could you please explain to us and draw the direction along which they acted?
• A.: The Milici Brigade was assigned the task to search the terrain
from the line of separation with the Bratunac Brigade and the Independent
Skelani Battalion. So it is this line deep within its own territory,
(25)behind the protected area, the safe area, towards Milici, Derventa, and
• Q.: Will you please indicate that? Move the map to the right slightly, please. • A.: [Marks] (5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For the record, the direction of action of the Milici Brigade has been marked in red marker with 1 MLPBR. • Q.: Can it be said that the assignment that you issued to these units to search the terrain, what was it, within the Srebrenica enclave? • A.: Yes, it was the assignment given to the units to search the (10)terrain within the Srebrenica enclave, whereas the Milici Brigade searched the terrain to the south-west, deep within its own territory, that is, to the south-west of the safe area of Srebrenica, towards Javor Mountain. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could I ask the usher for the exhibit 464, Prosecution Exhibit 464. (15) • Q.: This is an order dated the 14th of July, 1995, issued by the Commander of the Bratunac Brigade, Vidoje Blagojevic, who is referring to your order of the 13th of July that we have just been discussing, and when you drew it on the map the direction of activities of these units. So in relation to this order, can you show us the units of the Bratunac (20)Brigade that are searching the terrain on this same map, using a blue marker.
• A.: Yes. This is an order written by the Commander of the Bratunac
Brigade and addressed to his subordinate units, tasking them to search the
terrain and pursuant to the order that he has received from me. So he
(25)divided up the tasks by battalions and he designated the features and
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon, I think we can't see anything and I think we have to make a break. Does the technical booth have the same picture as we have here in (10)the courtroom, Madam Registrar? THE REGISTRAR: Yes, they do. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But our picture, it's true that we cannot see Konjevic Polje on the map, as General Krstic says. In brief, we can't see anything. So perhaps it would be best to take a (15)15-minute break, and I would like to request that the conditions be regulated so that we can work normally. That's the only thing we can do now. So we're going to have a 15-minute break. --- Break taken at 10.00 a.m. (20) --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I hope that the machine has decided to work properly now, but we'll see. Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor. Please proceed, if conditions permit. I hope they will. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.]
(5)
• A.: As I said, the Commander of the Bratunac Brigade related in
concrete terms what his subordinate units and battalions were to do. He
issued orders pursuant to the orders which he received from me. So that
the 1st Battalion was given the assignment of searching the terrain up to
the crossroads of the Konjevic-Bratunac-Konjevic Polje area. And Konjevic
(10)Polje should be in this direction but I can't see it on the map. The map
has been cut.
Next there was Jerestica, Lupoglav, the village of Susnjari,
Potok Lamenac, the village of Pale, the Zvijezda feature.
The 2nd Battalion was given the task of searching the terrain
(15)around Potok Lamenac and joining up with the 1st Battalion. Then we have
Potok Lamenac here. Then we have Prijemska Kosa, the village of
Cumanac -- Cumavic. Then Gradac, Prijemska Kosa, and connecting up with
Prijemska Kosa.
The 3rd Battalion received the assignment of searching the terrain
(20)from Obli Vis, Gradac, Prijemska Kosa, and joining up with the 2nd
Battalion, not counting the Zvijezda feature. Next we have Zeleni Jadar,
the right bank of the river of Zeleni Jadar, the village of Slapovici, and
Siljato Brdo. I am going to mark this. The 1st Infantry Battalion; then
we have the 2nd Infantry Battalion; and the 3rd Infantry Battalion.
(25)The 4th Battalion received the assignment to go to the former
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For the record, the lines of action of the Bratunac Brigade, that is to say, its battalions, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Battalions, on the map have been indicated by General Krstic in a blue marker pen. (10) • Q.: I should just like to ask you to put your initials somewhere there along those lines, please, General. • A.: [Marks] • Q.: General, looking at these two orders, that is to say, your order of the 13th of July, which you determined the tasks, among others, of the (15)Bratunac Brigade, and the order of the 14th of July, which the Bratunac Brigade sent further down to its subordinate units, was there any deviation with respect to your order? • A.: We could say there was deviation, especially when the order was issued to the 1st Battalion. That goes outside the borders of the safe (20)area, the protected area. And according to my order, I specify the area within the safe area to be searched, within the Srebrenica safe area, that is to say, from the north-east towards the south and south-west, that is to say, towards the area of deployment of the brigade towards Zepa -- engagement of the brigade towards Zepa. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] May I now ask the usher to place
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, I apologise for interrupting, but perhaps I could take use of this pause to ask you a question. (5)General Krstic, looking at this map here where you have indicated the deployment of several units, especially the Bratunac one, you told us that Konjevic Polje was not on the map. But the axis Konjevic Polje-Bratunac, could you indicate that for us on the map? Can you see the axis, the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac axis? Could you just indicate (10)that? Mark it, please. • A.: From Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, I'll show you the road. As we see Bratunac on the map, it is this road here. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you. And now another question: Looking at the path traversed by the column, what we (15)have been calling the column, there is Susnjari in the direction of Konjevic Polje. Can you indicate that axis for us, please? Susnjari Jaglici, towards the direction -- in the direction of Konjevic Polje. • A.: I think you meant the village of Susnjari, most probably. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, that's right. I didn't (20)pronounce it properly. • A.: Yes. This is the direction.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. Thank you. Can we,
therefore, say that there is this portion of the terrain where the
searching operations coincided with the road traversed by the column, the
(25)route traversed by the column?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, General. Mr. Petrusic, please proceed. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, for purposes of illustration, I should like to inform the Chamber that it was the (10)Defence's intention to make use of the big map of the Zvornik Brigade, but we have been handicapped in that respect so we have had to make due with the small map which is not the best possible choice, but that's what we have. We are now with Exhibit 432, which is a piece of information (15)General Tolimir sent to the forward command post, General Gvero, and Krstic personally, on the 9th of July, 1995. • Q.: General, at the time this report arrived, and we can see that it was at 2350 hours, most probably, had you attained -- were the goals attained with respect to the order for combat activity Krivaja 95? (20)
• A.: I spoke about this earlier on. No, we had not achieved our
objectives at that particular time, that is to say, on the 9th of July.
We had not accomplished the assignment which the Corps Commander set in
his order, apart from the fact that the forces of the 1st Battalion, that
is to say, portions of the Zvornik Brigade, between the 9th and 10th of
(25)July, took up Zivko -- positions at Zivkovo Brdo, Zivkovo Brdo here, but
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I should now like to ask that (10)Exhibit 481 be distributed. • Q.: This is an order referring to mobilisation. It was written on the 17th of July 1995, and it is signed by you and it was received by the Zvornik Brigade on the 24th of July, 1995. In your previous testimony, in response to a question from (15)Mr. McCloskey, you said something in this regard, that is to say, when you signed the order. So let us clear up some matters. To the best of your recollection, when did you sign this order? First of all, let us take note that it is your signature, is it not?
• A.: Yes, it is my signature. In answer to the question I was asked by
(20)Mr. McCloskey, I misspoke at one point and said that I signed this
statement -- this order on the 21st or 22nd, as far as I remember, after I
reached the command post at Vlasenica. What I wanted to say was: after my
return from handing over my duty between me and General Zivanovic, from
Han Kram, when I returned to the forward command post in the village of
(25)Krivaca, that is to say, at the forward command post at that time which
(5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I should like to ask the usher for OTP Exhibit 792 now, please. • Q.: This is a regular combat report of the Bratunac Brigade. I think it will be easier for you if you look at that part in the handwritten version. Colonel Blagojevic. (10)In the fourth paragraph from the top, in the English version it is paragraph 2, the last sentence which states: "In the zone of responsibility of the Brigade, the president of the Republika Srpska and the Commander of the DK, Drina Corps, were in Srebrenica in the brigade's area of responsibility today." (15)Now, in the course of your examination by the Prosecution, there was some things that needed to be cleared up with respect to the translation of this, as well as other things, and you contested the fact that you were there with the president of the Republika Srpska at that time. Can you tell us now how you would have written that report had you (20)been present when the president of Republika Srpska?
• A.: I did contest that. But I didn't even seen see the President of
the Republic, nor was I with him at all, nor did I even know that he was
in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade at all. Had I been
there instead of Colonel Blagojevic, I would have written the area of
(25)responsibility of the brigade, in the course of the day, that they were
• Q.: General, sir -- THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I apologise, but the translation -- the interpreters have read the translation from the English text, they read out the English version of this exhibit which is how the problem arose. Now I should like to ask Mr. Petrusic, for purposes of the record, to read the sentence again and then the interpreters can interpret (15)what they hear and not what was written down in the report, to clarify what the General was just saying. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, go ahead. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]
• Q.: Therefore, that sentence which has been contested, that is to say,
(20)its translation in the Serbian version reads as follows: "In the zone of
responsibility of the brigade, in the course of the day, the president
of Republika Srpska visited it, as well as the Commander of DK."
There is no need, General, for you to say anything else because
you have given us an answer to that question already.
(25)The Prosecution maintains, General, that you remained Commander of
(10) • A.: Had I at that time been the Commander of the Drina Corps, my basic preoccupation would have been the 28th Division of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say, its conduct and its breakthrough towards Tuzla. And then my basic preoccupation uppermost in my mind would have been the state of affairs in the Zvornik Brigade and the Birac (15)Brigade, and even the Vlasenica Brigade, because that was the area and their zones of responsibility through which the 28th Division passed through. So I would have written a series of orders to those brigades, depending on -- as the need arose, and there was the need to do so. Then I would quite certainly have set up a team with a corps (20)command which would have been on the spot with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Brigade as reinforcement and assistance to those brigades in their battles of the 28th Division, and the forces of the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, attacking from the Tuzla direction towards Zvornik and Vlasenica. (25)
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
• Q.: And your response prompts me to ask you, in connection with what (5)you said, that you would have certainly formed a team that would have been on the spot in the area of responsibility of those brigades. So my question is: From this order, can we conclude that the Main Staff could be said to be taking over the task of forming those teams, what you said the Corps Commander should do or whoever is authorised by the Corps (10)Commander? • A.: This order, issued by the Commander of the Main Staff, on the 17th of July, 1995, is the most conspicuous example of the way in which the Main Staff is taking over command of part of the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps by forming its own command group which is taking over the (15)command role in the area, as indicated in this order. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could I now have Exhibit 402, tab 3, footnote 34, the Rules of Service of the Security Organ in the Armed Forces of the SFRY. I'm referring to Article 49. • Q.: First of all, General, these Rules of Service, were they taken (20)over from the former army, that is, from the JNA, and applied to the army of Republika Srpska?
• A.: That is the Rules of Service of the Security Organs in the Armed
Forces of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which was taken
over in its entirety by the army of Republika Srpska or, rather, its
(25)Security Service that operated throughout the war.
• A.: With the Trial Chamber's permission, I should like to read it. THE INTERPRETER: We do not have a copy. (5) • A.: This is Rule 49 of the Rules of Service: "The data which constitute an official secret, the officer in paragraph 1 of this Rule, may inform other officers in the Security Organ or other persons only by authority of his superior in the Security Organ." MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] (10) • Q.: General, in view of the quotation you have just read out, do you recognise in this rule a situation that applied within the Drina Corps or, rather, the Security Organ of the Drina Corps?
• A.: In my earlier testimony I said something about this. I remember
saying that the Security Organs carry out certain tasks but that they do
(15)not inform, nor did they seek permission from their commanding officer in
the command structure for this.
I think that I mentioned an example when one of the commanders in
the Drina Corps, and I am referring to the Commander of the 1st Zvornik
Infantry Brigade, when he reported to the Drina Corps Commander and the
(20)Main Staff that his superior officer, his commander, was not reporting to
him regarding activities within his jurisdiction but that he was directly
reporting to the Security Organ of the Superior Command of the Drina Corps
and the Main Staff. I do not have that exhibit, and I think that the
Defence doesn't have it either. Perhaps we will be able to get hold of
(25)it.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, Your Honours, the Defence would thereby end the re-examination of General Krstic. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you very much, (15)Mr. Petrusic. Perhaps it would be convenient to have a break now. So we'll have a 15-minute break and we'll come back for the questions of the Judges. --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.19 a.m. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let us resume. Judge Fouad Riad, you have the floor, sir. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, General Krstic. Do you hear me? (25)
• A.: Yes, Your Honour.
• A.: Your Honour, Judge Riad, I signed that order as the Commander of the Operative Group of the forces engaged towards Zepa, and within that group was both the Bratunac and Milici Brigades and the Skelani Independent Battalion later. (15) JUDGE RIAD: So you would not be the Commander of the Drina Corps, you did not sign it as Commander of the Drina Corps. • A.: No, as Commander of the Operative Group forces engaged towards Zepa. And within that group were these two brigades, the Bratunac and Milici Brigades. (20) JUDGE RIAD: I see. I'm not a military man. That was not supposed to be signed by the Commander of the Drina Corps himself? • A.: No, it was not supposed to be signed by the Commander of the Drina Corps, General Zivanovic, because I was appointed by General Mladic as Commander of the Operative Group of forces engaged towards Zepa. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Now, it was also mentioned here by one of the expert
• A.: Could you please repeat the first part of your question? JUDGE RIAD: Good. When President Karadzic sent the authorisation for the VRS to take the enclave of Srebrenica on the 9th of July, that was Mr. Butler's testimony, it's mentioned, and it was accompanied with the (10)instruction that it should be personally delivered to you. In what capacity was that? • A.: From President Karadzic, through the Main Staff, I think it was forwarded by General Tolimir, came the instructions to continue the attack. This was a time when units of the Drina Corps had still not (15)reached the line designated by the order issued by the Commander of the Drina Corps. I was at the forward command post; next to me was General Gvero from the Main Staff, the Assistant of the Main Staff Commander for Morale, Legal, and Religious Affairs. That same day at the forward command post, General Mladic arrived together with General Zivanovic, in (20)the afternoon.
JUDGE RIAD: My question, perhaps you would not even answer it, so
was this the regular attitude in the army or was it some kind of bypassing
Mladic or bypassing Zivanovic and addressing everything to you directly?
Especially that President Karadzic praised you after that and apparently
(25)showed great esteem?
JUDGE RIAD: Well, I will not dwell more on that, of course. The (15)order was rendered by you, and I believe you even asked to have a report on the 17th of July, a report on the operation, what we call the search or sweep operation. Did you get any report? • A.: No, I did not receive any report. That report went to the command post at Vlasenica. I'm sorry. That wasn't an operation. It is a (20)customary action of the search of terrain which was absolutely necessary to make sure that the units engaged in the Zepa operation would not be attacked from behind. JUDGE RIAD: So if I understand rightly, after you give the order, you are not concerned with what happens in the army. (25)
• A.: I was not particularly concerned, but I was concerned to make sure
JUDGE RIAD: On a personal level, were you more or less -- did you attach importance to knowing what happened in this search which took place, if men were arrested or anything? (10) • A.: I did think about it, but no specific reports about it reached me. But later on, in the course of these proceedings, we saw that the Commander of the Bratunac Brigade, in his reports, did not for a moment point out that he had prisoners of war, nor that he had any problems in that regard. But he had to carry out a search of the terrain. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Now, also it so happened that you were in Zepa with General Mladic during the negotiations with the Muslim authorities, and it became known that the Muslims refused to surrender, if I remember rightly, and the claim that there has been a disappearance in Srebrenica and they didn't want to go through the same fate. (20)Now, also did this raise any concern in your mind about what happened, and prisoners, how they were treated and what happened to them, being already the man who gave the order for the sweep or the search?
• A.: No, I had no information about prisoners throughout my stay in
Zepa. I spoke about that earlier on. The responsibility was taken over
(25)by the Main Staff, headed by General Mladic and his assistants. My prime
JUDGE RIAD: You were also in Potocari, in the Fontana Hotel and (5)then in Potocari on the 12th. Did you watch or notice anything happening when they were screening the men, or was it done in secret? Was it clear that men were being screened and how they were screened? Just taking note of it, noticing it, even if you did not interfere. • A.: Your Honour, for the time I was there in Potocari, and this was a (10)very brief period of time, I simply was not able to see anything, nor did I hear from anyone that anything in particular was happening with respect to the separation of men from their families at the UNPROFOR base. I was not able to notice that anything was being done secretly in that connection. (15)Let me also add that General Mladic's order to continue the attack and the takeover of the command of the Drina Corps after the entry into Srebrenica, I understood that as a pursuit of the 28th Division members, their disarming, and the demilitarisation of the safe area. That is how I understood the whole issue. It never occurred to me that anything would (20)happen in connection with the prisoners of war such as I learnt about later.
JUDGE RIAD: I don't want to pursue this, but didn't the people
negotiating or the Muslims there claim that they cannot surrender because
there has been killing? If I understood rightly, it was said also by the
(25)media?
JUDGE RIAD: Another point. You were in Potocari on the 12th, you said that, and one of the expert witnesses, I think it was Colonel (10)Kingori, said that you were seen, and also another witness, Witness F, from the Dutch Battalion, they said that you were seen near the white house talking with high-ranking officers, Nikolic, I think, and in the company of Vukovic, the 12th and the 13th, and there were shots being heard around. Did you hear any shots? Did you have any idea of what was (15)happening? • A.: Your Honour, as I said, I wasn't even near the refugees, not to mention being close to any kind of white house or being in the company of Nikolic or Vukovic. I didn't see those people then, nor did I hear any shots. Immediately after the meeting in Bratunac on the 12th, I headed (20)through Potocari and Srebrenica and I returned after giving an interview to Republika Srpska Television. I simply, for reasons of health also, could not stand for long, nor could I move easily, such as some people claimed that I walked around and spent any length of time there. That's absurd. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Well, I'll ask you also about your visit to the
• A.: I didn't understand Witness DA as having said that he had to return to Treskavica immediately. He acted in the way he was ordered to by General Zivanovic. My intention was to visit the wounded in the (15)military hospital of the Main Staff in Sokolac, and our return towards Zepa took us along the way where his parents lived and we stayed there very briefly, maybe 15 or 20 minutes. That's all that we spent with my wife's family, which was quite close to the forward command post of Krivaca. It is a village between Han Pijesak and Krivaca. It is very (20)close by. JUDGE RIAD: So the main purpose was with the hospital, the visit of the hospital, and not the families; is that right? • A.: Yes, the main purpose was to visit the hospital and the wounded in that hospital. I felt it my duty to do that. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Was that part of -- did you do that often? Was that
• A.: Yes, I frequently visited the wounded in the Main Staff hospital, (5)and particularly when I was Brigade Commander in Sokolac, and that hospital in Sokolac. I considered it my duty to visit the wounded since I was in the area. It is the Romanija plateau. And hoping that my visit would have a positive effect on them and their recovery. The majority of the wounded were from the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade of which I had (10)been the Commander until August 1994. JUDGE RIAD: I understand what you said. But was this on the occasion of wounding, in particular, done to some of your soldiers or a routine visit? Was it a consequence of a battle, of a great disaster which required your visit? (15) • A.: At the time of the attack on Srebrenica, and later Zepa, from Olovo towards Sokolac, an attack was carried out by forces of the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, the Olovo Brigade. There were quite a large number of wounded soldiers and fighters from that brigade. I learnt about that and I felt it my duty to visit them, and I (20)did visit them in the Main Staff hospital.
JUDGE RIAD: Now, speaking of visiting, you also visited -- when
you became a Commander, I think, you visited certain Drina Corps units,
the Birac, I think, Zvornik, Bratunac Brigades. I think you visited them,
and you did not visit other units. But other units, you asked for a
(25)report, to be briefed by Colonel Andric. Now, I don't remember exactly
• A.: After I returned from Zepa and became Commander, I focused on the units I knew least well as the Chief of Staff, because I hadn't had occasion to familiarise myself with them and I was less familiar with that territory than I was with the Romanija plateau area, and that is the area (10)of Birac and central Podravanje; the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade which was engaged on the front towards Tuzla; and then the 1st Birac Brigade, headquartered in Sekovici, which was also engaged towards Tuzla and Zivinice. I also toured the Vlasenica Brigade towards Kladanj, and I later toured with the Bratunac and Milici Brigades as well. (15)I had no special reason to visit the 2nd Romanija Brigade because I knew it very well. I was its Commander and it was engaged on the front towards Kladanj and Olovo. JUDGE RIAD: Now, during all your roundabouts and whereabouts, according also to Witness DB, you were supposed to have a signalsman, a (20)soldier with a mobile receiver, who would always accompany you to ensure communication, and it was up to you to use him or not use him. Did you always have him with you? Did you always take advantage of this signalsman to know what was happening in your visit to the hospital, to the families, to the units? (25)
• A.: No, I didn't always have a signalsman with me.
• A.: Yes, that is true. (5) JUDGE RIAD: And you preferred not to have him sometimes? • A.: It depended on the need. If I was going to units where something in particular was happening, such as combat operations or a high intensity of combat operations - this was mostly the front towards Tuzla, Zivinice, Kladanj, and Olovo - then I did have a signalsman with me. On other (10)occasions I didn't take a signalsman with me. JUDGE RIAD: I don't have the advantage of being a military man, but don't you think during time of war you would need to know what happened the next moment? • A.: Yes, but one makes an assessment, daily assessments, long-term (15)assessments, as to potential developments in the area of responsibility of the Corps. All the commands, brigade commands, are closer to the command post in Vlasenica so that it was easy to reach their commands and positions from Vlasenica, especially in the area of Birca and central Podravanje. (20)As for units on the 2nd Romanija Brigade and the 1st Podrinje and the 5th Podrinje Brigades, then I would take a signalsman with me because they were further away. But in the car, I only had a radio receiver, a RUP 12, and nothing more than that. I had no telephone line.
JUDGE RIAD: I would like also to ask you something concerning the
(25)withdrawal of some of your soldiers from the Zepa operation. I believe
(10) • A.: Your Honour, when it is a question of the return of units who were engaged towards Zepa and had previously been engaged towards Srebrenica, it was only parts of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, commanded by Brigade Commander, at the time Colonel, Vinko Pandurevic. General Zivanovic, the Corps Commander, called me on the 14th and ordered that that part of the (15)Zvornik Brigade led by the Brigade Commander must return to its own area of responsibility immediately. Now, when it comes to the Bratunac Brigade, it was engaged towards Zepa, but at the same time, and we saw this on the basis of the exhibits, somebody from that brigade pulled out one to two companies and sent them (20)to the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade. I don't know who did that, nor do I have any reports about that. But pursuant to orders to engage towards Zepa, that brigade as a whole was engaged there as a whole, in its entirety.
JUDGE RIAD: I mean, you were the General. Would it have been an
(25)obstacle if you asked to know what was happening, to ask for a report?
• A.: General Zivanovic was the Corps Commander. It is his right. If he would have ordered me that Colonel Pandurevic, with his part of the (5)unit, should return straight away to its area of responsibility, that for me was sufficient, because he was in the area, he was able to monitor the situation, and he knew what was necessary to be done at that time and what should be undertaken. JUDGE RIAD: All right. I'll not dwell on this point. Now, just (10)during the last session this morning, you mentioned an order of the Commander of the Main Staff of the 17th of July, General Mladic, to take over some of the command. Now, could you clarify -- of course, we know General Mladic was a very powerful General, that he went all over the place and his word was law. But there is also a regulation in the army. (15)Was he entitled to take over, or should this pass through the chain, the normal chain of command?
• A.: Your Honour, he had the right to take over command in the part of
the area of responsibility of the Corps; that is his inalienable right,
according to the existing rules, the rules prescribing this. It is on the
(20)basis of them that he took action with respect to the concrete situation.
At the meeting of the Bratunac Brigade, on the 11th, in the
evening, he said that that area, that the 28th Division was his concern,
and "all of you others should move in the direction to Zepa." This order
of the 17th is the most obvious example of taking over the command in part
(25)of the zone of responsibility of the Corps.
(5) • A.: Well, I don't know to what extent that witness was able to follow the conduct of General Mladic. He was not with Generals Mladic, Zivanovic, and myself at all at any time; I was. And I saw and heard what General Mladic was ordering and what his behaviour was like, what his conduct was. (10) JUDGE RIAD: To your knowledge, he took over only for one operation or for the totality? • A.: General Mladic took over command when he ordered that the entrance into Srebrenica should be prolonged and later on, when it came to the evacuation of the population from Potocari, when it came to that question, (15)and everything else that happened with the prisoners of war, as well as later on; the command in the zone of responsibility of the Bratunac and Zvornik Brigades, that too. JUDGE RIAD: Now, the fact that everything happened according to his planning, was this done in secret or was it known by everybody, what (20)was happening? • A.: Your Honour, I don't know about any secret plans. I have already stated that the order to continue the attack and to enter into Srebrenica, I came to know because of the 28th Division, and the disarming of the protected area. That is how I came to understand it. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Well, then, you heard, in fact, about what happened,
• A.: [No interpretation]
JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar, can we go in private?
THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. Just one moment, please. I think that this is an opportune moment to take a break. We're (10)now going to have our long break, which means one hour. --- Recess taken at 12.14 a.m. --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let us resume our work, and we have questions by Judge Wald. (15) JUDGE WALD: Thank you, Mr. President. General, I have only about eight or nine questions and I don't think they'll detain you too long. My first question is: When you found out about the column of Muslims that was moving toward Tuzla, did you know that it was containing (20)mostly civilians and only a lesser portion of actual military members of the 28th Division?
• A.: Your Honour, I learnt about the column moving towards Tuzla. What
I learnt was that in the column there were members of the 28th Division of
the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that they were armed. I did not know
(25)that in the column there were civilians as well.
• A.: I did not have any earlier assumptions, up until the time, the moment, that I learnt in what area and in what direction the capture had taken place of those people. So prior to that I had no information at all (10)that capture had taken place on the route between Nova Kasaba, Konjevic Polje, Kravica. JUDGE WALD: So you don't remember during that week -- during the week of the 13th to the 17th, when you were admittedly conducting the operations for Zepa, you didn't know that anybody or you didn't receive (15)any information that any captures were made of people in that column? I just want to make sure I understand your answer. You didn't know that they'd captured anybody from the column during that week; is that your testimony?
• A.: I didn't know at all, no. I just learnt that there had been a
(20)breakthrough towards Tuzla, and that was on the 12th, in the evening, when
I arrived at the command post in Vlasenica. I learnt that from the duty
operational officer in the Corps command who received information from
the duty officer of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska. But I
did not know at all, I had no knowledge or information whatsoever during
(25)that period that any capture had taken place, and I did not know what had
JUDGE WALD: As regards your July 13th order which dealt with searching the terrain, which you have explored with us just what responsibilities certain brigades had for searching the terrain to follow (5)up on your July 13th order, did you ever inquire or get any information whether any remnants were picked up in that terrain search? Not from the column, in that terrain search, whether they picked up anybody. • A.: As far as I recall, and there was an exhibit about that here, only one of the reports from the command of the Bratunac Brigade reached the (10)forward command post at Krivaca and me. And the situation in the area was represented as being normal, nothing special, according to that report, which would allow conclusions to be made of any kind that the brigade was collecting up any remnants after the breakthrough of the 28th Division. JUDGE WALD: If anybody -- any remnants had been picked up (15)pursuant to the July 13th, the terrain order, of searching the terrain, if anybody had been captured, what would your orders have required would happen to those people? On the search of the terrain order, if they picked up anybody, how would those people have been disposed of?
• A.: I spoke about that earlier on. It is my position, and in fact I
(20)was duty-bound by the Rules and Regulations of International Laws on War,
and the Geneva Conventions as well, that I behaved towards these persons
as prescribed and determined, and that those people should be taken to the
collection area for prisoners of war, which is precisely what the Zvornik
Brigade did during a certain period of time with a number of prisoners of
(25)war that were collected up. And they handed them over to the collection
JUDGE WALD: Now, when you heard about the column marching towards Tuzla, you tell us that you never heard that anybody was captured from that column. But under what -- your understanding, if somebody had been (5)captured from the column, what would you have assumed would be done with them? • A.: What should have been done was in the spirit of the Rules and Regulations, that was the conduct that should have prevailed, of the Geneva Conventions. And had I been in the area, that certainly would have (10)been how it would have been.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Let me just ask you one other -- well, I have
more than one, but one question which refers to your earlier testimony
this morning, when you said that if you had actually been given an order
to dispose of these Muslim prisoners by execution or the like, you would
(15)have, under the laws of your own army as well as international law,
refused the order. I think that was the substance of your testimony. You
would have refused to obey the order.
My question to you would be: If you had been actually standing on
the spot of one of these execution sites and General Mladic was there and
(20)General Mladic was giving the orders that resulted in the execution of the
prisoners, but he was not ordering you to do it, he was ordering it
directly to people in your command, but if you were standing right there
beside him, do you think you would have had any obligation under your own
army code or under international law to do anything, or would you have
(25)been equally impotent and just have to stand there?
JUDGE WALD: But indulge me: If you had been, we know it's an assumption, but if you had been there, do you think there would have been (10)anything you could have done under the laws of your own army and international law? • A.: Perhaps I could have done something. But let me go back to what I already said, that the continuation of the attack, I understood to be, by the 28th Division, the demilitarisation of the zone, and I understood it (15)in no other way but that. So I could not have even dreamt of what would happen after that in the area when it comes to the question of the prisoners of war. JUDGE WALD: If I understand you correctly, General, your answer is had you actually been standing there on the spot when General Mladic (20)issued some of these orders, maybe there was something you could have done. Is that a correct interpretation of your testimony? You said "Perhaps I could have done something." • A.: Well, if I could not have done something, I would have left the area on pain of all the consequences that would have happened to me. (25)
JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you. By the 20th of July, when you
• A.: General Mladic never gave me back part of the operations after (10)withdrawing the forces of the Drina Corps from Srebrenica and sending them towards Zepa. JUDGE WALD: So -- • A.: I apologise. JUDGE WALD: Go ahead. (15) • A.: The very fact, the very fact that he, on the 17th, wrote the order and formed a command group to command that and implement the order goes to bear out what I've been saying, because it was his intention after the 19th to continue cleaning up the area from Konjevic Polje to Cerska, to Udrca and the positions of the units at the front towards Tuzla, and that (20)is what, in fact, it says in the order. He ordered that a plan be devised; he ordered the commanding officer of that group in the Main Staff to do that.
JUDGE WALD: So are you saying that as long as you remained
Commander of the Drina Corps, General Mladic still had charge of this
(25)cleanup operation, or until it was completed, whenever that was? Is that
• A.: At the Vlasenica command post, I returned there on the 2nd of August when the situation in that area, and I'm thinking of the Bratunac, Srebrenica, Zvornik, Sekovici, Vlasenica area, when it was (5)almost quite normal -- almost normal. And after that I commanded the forces not only in that area but all the forces in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps. I do not know when the command group designated by General Mladic left the area. I must be quite frank: I did not even know at that time that that particular command group had been (10)formed and that an order for that existed. I learnt about that -- it was only later that I learnt about that. JUDGE WALD: You answered one of Judge Riad's questions about why, when you did -- after the formal takeover of the command on the 20th, you did not visit some particular areas personally, Zvornik and Bratunac, and (15)you said that was because in many ways you were already familiar with those parts of the command. But my question to you would be: Given that by that time, according to your testimony, I believe, you had some notion from your source as to what had actually happened in that part of the territory during this week of July, did you not have some feeling of (20)necessity to go visit that area and see what remained, what effect it might have had on the troops, et cetera, once you found out what had happened and it had primarily happened in those areas?
• A.: At that time I still had responsibilities towards Zepa. As for
the situation in the area of Bratunac, Srebrenica, and Zvornik, Milici,
(25)Vlasenica, and Sekovici, I was informed about that by Colonel Cerovic on
(10) JUDGE WALD: After Zepa was completed, and going later into August, and even into September, did you ever hear anything about mass graves, burials, exhumations, that sort of thing, in the months -- in the fall months, late August/September, after the campaigns had been finished? Did you ever hear any reports - radio, newspaper, just rumour - (15)that there were graves and burials and reburials? • A.: Your Honour, I said earlier on that everything that happened later on the grave sites and digging again, that this was done in far greater secrecy than the killing itself of the war prisoners.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. You testified this morning that it was
(20)possible for security officers, even of the Drina Corps, or intelligence
officers, rather, to carry out projects that went just straight up the
line through the security device and that were kept secret from the
regular Corps Command. I'm trying to understand: If one of those
intelligence security operations which was directly under the supervision
(25)of the Main Corps security head, if those were carried out with the
(10)
• A.: Yes, I did speak about the application of paragraph 49 of the
Rules of Service for the Security Organs, and that paragraph was made use
of fully by them when it came to the relationship and treatment towards
prisoners of war. I also said that they, and this was enabled them by
paragraph 49, that they probably had engaged a portion of men outside the
(15)Security Service. Perhaps, I say perhaps, they were people that they had
associated with before in the Security Service. Perhaps they thought that
everything was evolving in secrecy. But actually it was impossible to
hide it all from the eyes of the public. The command of the Drina Corps
never saw any records about the engagement of people or vehicles,
(20)requisitioning them, for this assignment headed by the Security Service
and the head of the Security Service in the Main Staff, Colonel Beara.
The situation did not allow us at the time, that is to say, in the
area of responsibility of the Corps, to make inventories of any kind or
look through documents of that nature, and it is for the first time here,
(25)after the Prosecution presented its evidence and exhibits, I learnt that
JUDGE WALD: The rest of my questions, General, are very specific, (5)factual questions and shouldn't take very long. I just have a few of them. As Commander of the Zepa operation, who did you report to and when? When you were conducting the Zepa operation, who were you making your reports to and where, when? (10) • A.: Your Honour, they were daily reports which were sent to the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska for the simple reason that General Mladic designated me to command the units that were engaged towards Zepa. JUDGE WALD: Okay. My next question is: You indicated some visits to your family in the area at the relevant time. I think on July (15)12th and 13th. When you visited your family or your wife's family, did any discussion come up of these news reports which, we are told by other witnesses, were going on about what was suspected to be happening in the area, to the column and to the prisoners?
• A.: On the evening of the 12th, after I went from the Vlasenica
(20)command post, I visited my mother, went to visit my mother, and she lives
near my wife's family in the village of Leskovac, on the road towards
Zepa, further on. And that same night I went to spend the night with my
wife's family, and at the time nothing was talked about for the simple
reason that nobody knew anything about it. It was between the 12th and
(25)13th of July. Nor was there anything on the information media at all
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Given that you were designated, according to your testimony, by General Mladic to take over the Zepa operation on, I (5)believe it was, the night of the 11th - I mean he told you about it; maybe it was the morning of the 12th - did you ever hear from General Mladic why he needed your presence at the Fontana Hotel meetings, if you were to have nothing to do with the evacuation or anything that happened and he wanted you to move on and go on up to Zepa? Why did he say that you needed to (10)come to those meetings at all? • A.: Well, on the 11th, in the evening, at the Bratunac meeting, I was designated the commander of the forces towards Zepa. I did not know that I would be attending the meeting on the evening of the 11th or the 12th, because he didn't tell me that after the meeting on the evening of the (15)11th, most probably due to certain reasons concerning General Zivanovic, perhaps, who was there, and on the 12th, wrote the order for the engagement of the buses for the evacuation of the population from Potocari. So probably General Mladic assessed that somebody ought to attend the meeting. Now, whether he gave him the task to go to the (20)command post at Vlasenica and what he was to do there, at the time, on the 11th -- on the evening of the 11th, and 12th in the morning, I did not know.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. You testified, I think, that for some
reasonably sizable blocks of time, you were without communication
(25)facilities. For instance, from 6.00 to 10.00 on the 12th of July, because
• A.: Your Honour, I did not need any communication facilities because the commanders of the brigades attended the meeting of the 11th, in the evening, at the command headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade, and they also heard General Mladic's orders, what they were supposed to do. And on (10)the 12th I went past the units at Viogora, and I saw a number of their commanders and units along the road. I spent a short space of time there and continued on to Vlasenica, to the command post there. JUDGE WALD: But wasn't this the time period when you were just learning about the column moving toward Tuzla, and there was some fear (15)that, in fact, some of the 28th might move in the direction of Zepa? • A.: I said earlier on that there was no assignment of that kind from General Mladic or General Zivanovic that I received. I didn't receive anything like that. And so I didn't consider it to be my responsibility to follow anything in that regard because General Mladic was there, his (20)assistants were there, General Zivanovic was there, they were all there and there was just me, one person who had received an assignment to pull out forces from Srebrenica and the area and to engage them towards Zepa. So that was my prime preoccupation. My sole preoccupation was Zepa.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. I only have two short questions. One, you
(25)mentioned that you did see Kosoric at the Potocari checkpoint briefly on
• A.: Yes, I said something about this previously. He did go with me to pass through Potocari, through Srebrenica, to Pribicevac, and further on to Viogora and towards Vlasenica and Zepa. After I stopped at the Potocari checkpoint, I ordered him to report to me at the forward command (10)post in Krivaca which he did do on the morning of the 13th. As to any information that could have happened at 12 -- on the 12th at noon in Potocari and Vlasenica, he told me nothing about that. JUDGE WALD: Was Kosoric with you most or all of the time starting when you got to the forward command, for that entire week that you were (15)there, or did he come and go? • A.: I apologise. Are you thinking of the Pribicevac or Krivaca forward command posts? JUDGE WALD: Wherever you were. I mean, the basis of my question is: Was he close by to you for most or all of that week? (20) • A.: He was with me the entire time at the forward command post, both at Pribicevac and later on at Krivaca.
JUDGE WALD: So he was with you all the time during that week.
My last question refers to something one of the Defence witnesses
said. He said that in the VRS, as in most armies, you have a lot of
(25)written rules and regulations, but very often in combat, in emergency
• A.: An oral order can be issued, especially if it is a short order. (10)But when it was up to me, I never stepped outside the frameworks of what was prescribed by the rules and regulations as to the control and command of the units, the troops. JUDGE WALD: All right. My very last question has to do with the takeover. (15)I believe you testified that during General Mladic's visit to the Krivaca forward command post on the 15th of the July, he told you that you would be "soon taking over as Corps Commander." At that point did you ask him for further details of when that would happen, or did he offer any, or did he simply say: "Soon you will be taking it over," and you just waited (20)to see what would happen after that?
• A.: Your Honour, it never burdened me, this taking over of higher
duties. The duties I had and the post I had, this was not something that
I thought about, nor was I happy to take on any extra duties. I didn't
ask him for any explanations. I continued to perform my duties and tasks
(25)which emanate specifically in connection to the Zepa operation.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you, General. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Wald. I think perhaps it would be convenient to have a break now, not to (5)begin, since we only have five minutes. So we'll have a quarter of an hour's break. --- Recess taken at 1.55 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.15 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Krstic, I will now have (10)a few questions for you. It is true that one is at an advantage when speaking last, but I do have a few questions. You explained at the beginning of your testimony that you followed your education and your career in a multiethnic environment without any hatred or animosity between the various ethnic groups. In that (15)connection, you expressed your surprise when, upon returning to Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992, you were able to note that only Serb soldiers were members of the VRS army ranks. My question is the following: In your opinion, what was the objective of this war between the BH and the VRS, specifically? (20) • A.: Your Honour, with respect to the ethnic composition of the army of Republika Srpska, I said that my brigade, the one which I took over command of from another commander was monoethnic; however, I know for a fact that many units in the VRS had among their ranks members of other ethnic groups, that is, Bosniaks and Croats. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. But, General Krstic, was
• A.: Even in 1995 this was true. In my opinion, I am, in the first place, a career soldier. I have never been a politician, though a General in a certain sense should not get involved in politics but should be (5)familiar with politics. And I said that I found it extremely hard to accept everything that had happened in the area of the former Yugoslavia, and particularly so in the territory of my republic, where I was born and where I grew up in a multiethnic environment. The war in Yugoslavia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina was provoked by the policies pursued by all three (10)parties. Why did the war break out? I spoke about that at the beginning. And the person most responsible for all this were the politicians who, in those days, represented all three ethnic groups and all the other ethnicities inhabiting the former territory of the former Yugoslavia. (15)For me, as a person who was born and grew up in a multiethnic community, and especially being an officer who was in command of units that were multiethnic, this was extremely painful, especially when I reached the area and took over control of this command, the members of which were only Serbs at the time. (20)I came voluntarily to the army of Republika Srpska, as did all my colleagues of other ethnic groups who abandoned --
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] General, I'm sorry for
interrupting you. You said that politics was for politicians, and the
war, for Generals, and that the Generals do not determine policies.
(25)However, are you aware of the political objectives which you did not
• A.: No, I did not know. I could just think about it. The objective I was aware of was the defence of the people I belonged to, and nothing more than that. Nothing more. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So are you telling me that -- when I'm asking you what was the objective of the war, are you telling me that the objective of the war -- the objective of the VRS was to defend? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But to defend who? (10) • A.: I came to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina when the war was in full swing already. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Perhaps we can develop this question on another occasion. You spoke about your return to Bosnia-Herzegovina. When exactly, (15)and I mean what month, did you return to Bosnia-Herzegovina? • A.: I returned in the month of June to Bosnia-Herzegovina. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, fine. Did you take the decision to return to Bosnia-Herzegovina on your own personal initiative, or were you obeying an order or following anybody's suggestion in that (20)respect? • A.: I decided on my own accord to return to the place where I was born. And as I said earlier on, I had hoped and was convinced, in fact, that the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina would not escalate to the extent it did, but unfortunately that was not to be the case. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] General Krstic, do you know
• A.: I came from the Pristina Corps, that is, from Kosovo, and I (5)testified about that earlier on. I was the most responsible there as the Brigade Commander, in Kosovska Mitrovica, and I couldn't have left until it was -- it collapsed ethnically into its component parts. And then I realised that I had nothing more to do in the army of Yugoslavia, so that I had to go back to where I was born and where I came from. I do not (10)believe that any officer from the Pristina Corps who was born in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, regardless of what ethnicity he was, remained in the army of Yugoslavia. So I am not aware of that. In my brigade, not a single officer remained, be he a Serb, a Croat, or a Muslim. (15)Before all these things happened in the former Yugoslavia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, that brigade was a multiethnic brigade, and I can say in all sincerity that as the Brigade Commander, I was proud of that fact. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. General Krstic, did you know or did you hear reference to an order, maybe it could have been (20)secret, a secret order, dated January 1992, an order by Milosevic to transfer to Bosnia-Herzegovina all JNA officers born in Bosnia?
• A.: No, I was not aware of any such order. All I knew was that once
the war had broken out in the former Yugoslavia, first in Slovenia and
then in Croatia, that there were transferals of a certain number of
(25)officers to the war-swept areas. I cannot say, nor do I know, what ethnic
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Upon your arrival in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were appointed Commander of the Romanija Brigade which you have referred to. What exactly was the area of responsibility (5)of that Romanija Brigade? • A.: When I was appointed Commander of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, at the time it was fully engaged on the front lines towards Kladanj, Olovo, and Vares. That was the area of responsibility of that brigade. It's the western part of the Romanija plateau, closer to Central (10)Bosnia. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Was there any correspondence between this area of responsibility that you have just mentioned and the self-proclaimed autonomous region of Romanija, proclaimed in 1991, and then integrated with the self-proclaimed province of Srpska? (15) • A.: While I was still in Kosovska Mitrovica, I heard of certain regions being formed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia. As for the area of responsibility of my brigade, it has nothing to do with that Romanija province, self-proclaimed Romanija province, because anyway, that is not the same area because Kladanj, Olovo, and Vares do not belong to (20)the Romanija plateau. The Romanija plateau includes the municipalities of Pale, Sokolac, and Han Pijesak.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You qualified as short the
one-month-long period from the 1st to the 28th of September, when you were
transferred from the Commander of the Motorised Brigade of Romanija to the
(25)Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps. You also said that this period of time
(5) • A.: I had the rank of Colonel for almost three years after being Lieutenant Colonel. As far as I know, the time it takes to be promoted from Colonel to Major General is not fixed in any way or by any rules and regulations, instructions, orders, or laws. My promotion to the rank of Major General, I do not consider to be anything exceptional because I had (10)served as Colonel for all of three years, and the position of Chief of Staff, according to establishment in the army of Republika Srpska, is held by a Major General. And I was promoted to that rank in May 1995 after returning from treatment at the Military Academy in Belgrade. And before that I was appointed to the position of Chief of Staff of the Corps in (15)1994, in August. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] At a certain point in time, and even today, you said that during the wartime period there were many rules that were not observed. Could it happen, could the same situation occur in relation to the transfer of responsibilities between the former Chief (20)of Staff and the new chief of a corps, a Corps Commander, between the former and a new Corps Commander?
• A.: Mr. President, as far as I know, I didn't say that the rules were
not implemented in wartime, at least as far as I am concerned. It was
customary in the former Yugoslav People's Army, and later in the army of
(25)Republika Srpska, that after one is appointed to a certain position, a
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. But, General, you (20)explained that when you were in command of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, sometimes you would take prisoners of war. What were the centres where these prisoners of war were held in captivity?
• A.: Your Honour, I spoke about that. There are two places, when we
are talking about the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, where prisoners of
(25)war were detained or, rather, where they lived, and those were Knezina, a
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What was done exactly when (10)prisoners of war were captured, according to your experience? • A.: I have testified about that earlier on. When prisoners are captured, the units that captured the prisoners, and this would usually occur on the front lines, they would report to the Superior Command, that is, the brigade command, and then the Chief of Security or his officer (15)would go to the subordinate unit that carried out the capturing of prisoners, take over those prisoners and bring them to the place where they would be put up or where some war prisoners were already being held in detention. I said that they were treated fully in accordance with the Geneva (20)Conventions and other rules and regulations. They were given the same food as our troops and our officers, and --
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I beg your pardon. I apologise
for interrupting you, but to speed things up a little because we are
pressured by time: Did you have any experience with prisoners of war as
(25)the Commander of the Drina Corps?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, a minor remark for the transcript. The General said that as the Brigade Commander he did have experience, but as Chief of Staff and Corps Commander he had no experience with prisoners of war, and I think that the transcript needs to be corrected to that effect. That would be my suggestion. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. That is what the General said, except with regard to the Zvornik and Birac Brigades. General, you explained during your testimony that the Chief of Security was an essential component of the command of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade when you were its Commander. The Chief of Security, did (20)he have a major role in all units and at all levels, be it brigades or corps, or was it something specific to your way of command, or was it specific to that particular brigade? What I mean is, when you say that it is an essential component, does that mean for you personally or in the organisation as a whole? (25)
• A.: Let me say that as Brigade Commander, for me it was a very
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In any event, General Krstic, you explained that Colonel Popovic, the head of security of the Drina (5)Corps, was placed under the direct orders of the Commander-in-Chief, that is, of General Mladic. On what date did that take place? Have you any precise idea about that? • A.: I learnt about that later, when I learnt about all the events that I have mentioned with respect to the prisoners of war of the 28th (10)Division. Most probably the date was the day when the separation started of men in Potocari from their families, the separation of men from their families in Potocari. The officer that I mentioned told me this, that he was -- that he was ordered personally by General Mladic to place -- that he is being placed under the command of Colonel Beara. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General Krstic, but knowing that the security officer is such an important element and almost an indispensable element, and if General Mladic is appointing you as Commander of the Zepa operation, how do you explain the fact that General Mladic took away from you this officer when he himself had Colonel Beara? (20)
• A.: Mr. President, General Mladic did not take him away from me. He
remained in the command in Vlasenica together with the Corps Commander. I
did not have a security organ in Zepa all that time. I didn't know where
that man was, what he was doing, and under whose orders he was doing what
he was doing. I have said I don't know how many times that all my
(25)knowledge came much later. Whether General Zivanovic, as Corps Commander,
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But did you feel the need for a security officer in the Zepa operation? • A.: No, I didn't feel such a need. I didn't feel it. But perhaps it (5)would have been normal for that person to come by occasionally to that area. But I was not the one deciding about that. It was only the Corps Commander, General Zivanovic, who had any authority over him or, according to the chain of command, right up to the Main Staff. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But was there someone who (10)replaced Colonel Popovic in his duties in the Zepa operation? • A.: Mr. President, no. He was not at the Pribicevac forward command post even during the Krivaja Operation. He only came on the 11th, as we saw. He arrived in Srebrenica on the 11th. Prior to that, he didn't even visit the forward command post at Pribicevac, which seems to imply that (15)someone else was giving him instructions, the Corps Commander and his superior security department. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We have already spoken today about the checkpoint at Potocari, on the 12th of July, and you admitted that Popovic was with you at that checkpoint; is that true? (20)
• A.: When the meeting ended in the Fontana Hotel, I headed forward and
I was followed by the head of the Intelligence Department, Kosoric. I
didn't see that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was following us. And when I
reached the checkpoint to give that interview, I noticed him. I had no
contact with him. I didn't ask him what tasks he had been assigned; I had
(25)no right to ask him that, because that was the right that his Corps
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. But, General Krstic, do you know where he went from that checkpoint in Potocari? You left. Do you know where Colonel Popovic went? (5) • A.: No, Mr. President, I had no idea, nor was I interested where he would go. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] At that point, at that Potocari checkpoint, you gave an interview to the television; is that true? • A.: Yes. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Were you in a position to grant that interview? And why did the TV choose you, to interview you; do you know that? • A.: I can say quite freely that this was a coincidence, that I was the first. They weren't waiting for me, they were waiting for General Mladic (15)and the Corps Commander, or someone else from the civilian authorities from the area. Maybe somebody from the MUP. But I happened to be the first to come along. I gave that interview, but as usual I didn't do it gladly because I don't like to speak to journalists and to appear on television. I simply had no incentive to do that. But they simply came (20)across me. The interview was brief; maybe it took seven or eight minutes in all, as you saw. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you know the journalists, the reporters? • A.: No. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Did the reporters know you?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Were you aware that in answering the questions of reporters, or in agreeing to give an interview, you could have been seen as one of the major protagonists of the operation against (5)Srebrenica, or at least of implicitly approving that operation? • A.: I never gave the matter any thought, and I don't regret granting that interview, because they introduced themselves as being a crew from Republika Srpska Television. They asked me for an interview, and you are aware of the contents. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, we know the interview. Were you in a position to refuse to grant that interview? Could you have refused to be interviewed? • A.: Maybe I could have refused to be interviewed, but there was no reason for me to avoid granting that interview since they were there. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You also said that Colonel Popovic was sick after Srebrenica. Can you tell us when he took up his duties again? • A.: Mr. President, I really cannot say on what date he took up his duties again. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But in any event, he did go back. • A.: Yes, he did. I think this was at the end of August or the beginning of September; I don't know the exact date. But before he came, I had already learnt what I have told you about. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You also explained that you
• A.: There can be only one reason: Because he was part of the Corps, (5)and at the time I had learnt only about his involvement, so such an officer had to be removed in accordance with the prevailing conditions at the time. I tried in the way I have described but I did not succeed. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, we know that already. Were there any other persons in the Corps who also took part? (10) • A.: I didn't learn anything to the effect that anyone else from the Drina Corps had taken part in that, especially what he had done together with Colonel Beara. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So can it be said that your source mentioned only Colonel Popovic as having participated in those (15)events? • A.: Yes, precisely so, and that he used units together with the Security Department of the Main Staff that were not part of the Drina Corps. I was convinced that he was the only one from the Drina Corps. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let me move on to another (20)topic. What was the customary procedure for a transmission of orders coming from the Commander-in-Chief when they have to be carried out by a brigade unit? What is the normal procedure of transmitting such an order, briefly? (25)
• A.: The customary procedure, if an order is issued from a command
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I don't know. We have this order of the 14th of September, Prosecution Exhibit 704. Do you remember that order? Perhaps the usher can show General Krstic this order, Exhibit 704. (10)General, should this order have passed through the Corps Commander, then through the Zvornik Brigade Commander, even if the person expected to implement the order, in this case Captain Trpic, was directly named in the order? • A.: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think that is not the order; it's not the right one. Maybe some references have been incorrect. I also see that it is now 3.00 so perhaps we have to make a break, because the questions that I still have cannot be finished by 3.30 or something like that. General Krstic has to go to the hospital tomorrow, I (20)think. Is that so, Mr. Visnjic and Mr. Petrusic? Can you tell us something about that? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. If we can go into private session, I will explain my reasons. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, very well. Let's go into
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I see we are in public session (5)now. We are going to adjourn for the day. Tomorrow we will have a witness, and when that witness completes his testimony, we will resume my questions for General Krstic. Because I was unable to complete my questions today, I don't have the courage to ask the staff to stay on, so (10)we have adjusted our programme accordingly, that is, in accordance with current needs. We will stop there for today and we will resume tomorrow at 9.30. We wish you a good recovery, General Krstic. Thank you. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.07 p.m., (15)to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of November, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
