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/ Colormap • Page 7539 • {1/87} (1)Wednesday, 22 November 2000 [Open session] [The accused entered court] --- Upon commencing at 9.24 a.m. (5)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good morning, ladies and
gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters; good
morning to the Office of the Prosecutor, the Defence counsel; good
morning, General Krstic.
We're now going to resume with the testimony of Mr. Rudovic, and
(10)when we finish that questioning, we will take up with the questions of the
General. We are now going to have Mr. Rudovic introduced into court. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Mr. Rudovic. Please be seated. (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Good morning to you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you feel well? Everything all right? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I do. I'm fine. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sure you'll be able to (20)answer questions put to you by Mr. Petrusic. I think we were still with the year 1992, and I think we ought to move on, speed things up a bit. Please proceed.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Good morning, Mr. President, Your
Honours, my learned colleagues of the Prosecution, and everybody else in
(25)court. I think we'll get through 1992 and 1995 very quickly this
WITNESS: VLADO RUDOVIC
[Resumed] • EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued] (5) • Q.: Mr. Rudovic, you left off yesterday telling us in your testimony when you met General Krstic and I think that was at the beginning of 1993; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that's correct. • Q.: Tell us, please, what was the conversation you had with the (10)General who was then a Lieutenant Colonel, Krstic, Commander of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, which was the brigade to which you yourself belonged to at the time?
• A.: Let me say first of all that I was very nervous yesterday. But as
to our conversation, with the leader of my company, I went to Lieutenant
(15)Colonel Krstic, to Gusinac, which is where he was, he had a sort of tent
there, and he explained to us what safe area meant, what we had the right
to, what they had the right to do, what their rights were, what our rights
were, and he informed us about the line. He said that they had been
disarmed and we were not allowed to engage in any provocations; that we
(20)were Serbian soldiers, that we must respect the image of us as soldiers.
As I said, my brother's son was killed and my son was killed as
well, and lots of other people killed. Many people were killed and
expelled and forced to leave. But he told me that I must be a true
Serbian soldier and live up to that image and that I must not do anything.
(25)When I raised my voice, he said, "No, I don't want Serbian
(5) • Q.: So Lieutenant Krstic told you at the time that you must be a real, true Serbian soldier? • A.: Yes, that's right. • Q.: Let me finish, please. Without any acts of revenge or undertaking any acts of that kind towards the Muslim army or the civilian population. (10)And that, as far as I was able to understand your testimony, that he didn't want the likes of you in the Serbian army because he did not want to be responsible for any war crimes; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Briefly speaking, Mr. Rudovic, tell us, please, when the safe area (15)was set up, did you respect the rules and regulations governing a safe area, a protected area?
• A.: Throughout the time I was at Zepa, and we respected the whole
front line, the whole line all the time. There were no provocations from
either side. But I must say that from the other side there were
(20)provocations. First of all, they had not been disarmed, as we were told,
and they would hit us -- come from the rear, behind our back. The line
was 35, 40 kilometres. They would cross the line. They had 4 or 5
kilometres of no-man's land in between, and they would kill the population
there. They would seize the cattle, the livestock, and they would lay an
(25)ambush for the army and they would ambush the drivers taking food, driving
• Q.: And so at the beginning of that year, 1993, when the safe area was established, was formed, it moved from within the composition of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade to the 65th Motorised Regiment, Protection (5)Regiment; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And you were a member of the battalion of that 65th Protection Regiment? • A.: Yes, I was a member of a battalion of the Protection Regiment (10)until 1995. • Q.: Was that an infantry battalion? • A.: Yes, it was an infantry battalion with light weaponry. • Q.: And within that structure you had your company leader and Battalion Commander, I assume. (15) • A.: Yes, we had a Battalion Commander, leader of the company, a Commander of the platoon. It was a proper unit organised as it should be.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic, the
interpreters have asked us to ask you to make a pause between question and
answer. You two are speaking the same language, but, Witness, there is
(20)always an interpreter, and unless you make breaks, it won't be possible.
And if you go on that way, it will be just a conversation between the two
of you and nobody else will benefit. So please pay attention to that,
Mr. Petrusic, and I do think that Mr. Petrusic did caution you, Witness,
when you started your testimony. But that is not a criticism. I should
(25)just like to ask you to do that. We don't understand your language so try
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, thank you. (5) • Q.: Mr. Rudovic, at the beginning of July 1995, where were you; that is to say, where was your unit located? • A.: We were on the same line at which we were located in 1992. We had a pause, a break. We shifted -- we moved for the winter, then they expanded that zone, then we had to return to our former positions where we (10)were in 1992, so we stayed there until the end of 1993. • Q.: Were you at that position when the combat actions in 1995 began, that is to say, on the 14th of July, at Zepa? • A.: I was there throughout. I was there the whole time until the fall of Zepa. (15) • Q.: Tell me, please, during the combat at Zepa, that is to say, from the 14th of July, if you know, what was the chain of command in your unit? Who did you receive your orders from? • A.: The company leader. Company leaders would issue orders, and probably they received their orders from the Battalion Commander, and (20)that's how the line goes, the chain goes. He was the leader of the company -- • Q.: Who was the leader of the company after the 14th of July? • A.: The company leader was Gojko Petrusic. • Q.: I'm asking about the 14th of July? (25)
• A.: Yes. He was killed then and he was replaced by the Dragan
• Q.: What about the Battalion Commander? • A.: The Battalion Commander up until then was Milanko Beatovic, but he was later replaced sometime in 1994 by Radivojevic. I don't know his (5)name. And he was there until the end, he was in that post until the end. • Q.: Do you happen to know who your Battalion Commander received orders from? • A.: Well, probably from the higher commanding officers. • Q.: May we then say that you don't have any precise knowledge in that (10)direction? • A.: You mean who he received them from? • Q.: Yes, your Commander. • A.: Well, there were several officers. For example, in our sector of the line, the unit I was in, it belonged to the 2nd Romanija and to the (15)Protection Platoon because it was all mixed up. Now if I were to begin to tell you all that, well -- we were told that we ought to be on the ready because in Zepa all the UNPROFOR soldiers had been disarmed. And then provocations started and that is when I felt the first fighting of 1992. They killed Gojko Petrusic, our company leader, and wounded a (20)soldier, and that's how the operation was launched, that's how it started. And there was Colonel Andric there and there was Krstic, I think he was still a Lieutenant Colonel at the time, and they were up at Borica, to the right of us, up there. And I heard about him when he passed from Zepa, Tolimir. I don't know what his name was. Miroslav, maybe. (25)
• Q.: Mr. Rudovic, tell us, during that period, from the 14th of July up
• A.: Our company, we had two. • Q.: Could you tell us what you did with them? • A.: Well, there they are today, alive and well. One of the men's name (5)was Osman Omerspahic, and he went to prison straight away. We turned him over to the police and the police held him in custody. He was exchanged. And there he is today, driving a bus from Sarajevo to Gorazde. And he is a local of Han Pijesak and he doesn't even pay his bus tickets to anybody when he gets on a bus -- he doesn't charge for bus rides. (10)So when Zepa fell later on, there was another one and his name was Ramic, and he went to Sarajevo to be exchanged. • Q.: During those combat activities at Zepa from the 14th of July to the 2nd of August, did you have occasion to see General Krstic? • A.: I saw General Krstic on two occasions, at the beginning and at the (15)end, that is to say, at the beginning when we moved out to Zepa, and when the whole operation finished, I saw them. That's where we parted ways. And I went home. Whether he left before me, I don't know, because everybody has his own road to follow. • Q.: You told us about a detail from your meeting, you described a (20)detail from your meeting that was at the beginning of April/May 1993, and it was about the way he criticised you and told you how you must behave as a soldier, what your conduct should be.
• A.: He didn't say that to me, he told the whole army. He explained
the importance of the line, the importance of the safe area, the
(25)importance of the fact that they had been disarmed, and the role of
• Q.: You're talking about the Muslim side, are you? • A.: Yes. The Muslims captured them, they took their weapons, and then they used those weapons to strike against us. Krstic -- well, I've told (15)you already. Krstic held that line until we moved to the protection regiment, and he advised us how we should -- what our conduct should be, that we should be real fighters, that we mustn't touch civilians or anybody who is injured or anybody who surrenders. We were not allowed to do anything to them or shoot at them or anything. That's what I'm telling (20)you. Now, what can you do if you're not allowed to shoot? But that was how it was and we respected that up at that line there. And 2 or 3 kilometres along the line they tilled the land which was on our territory. • Q.: Yes. Could you slow down, please, now.
• A.: They worked the land, their own land, which was in fact on our
(25)territory, but they did not carry weapons at that time. They would sow
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence has no further questions for Mr. Rudovic. That completes his testimony. (5) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I apologise. I haven't said something that I wanted to say. When we got down during all that time, when my leader was killed, we advanced several kilometres, and then they made trenches on our in the course of the night and launched their operations from there. When our (10)leader was killed we came to those trenches and took control of those trenches, but they said that there were to be negotiations and the negotiations went on for a day or two, I don't know actually how long, but they did not succeed. And then we advanced again. They attacked us; we advanced again, because as soon as the negotiations failed there was (15)shooting straight away and that's what we had to do. And I spent about four -- I spent five or six days doing those 4 or 5 kilometres. And when we got down there, when Zepa surrendered, the Serb soldiers did not go into Zepa until the last civilian had left, and they all left single-file in buses by us, because we had control of the road. (20)And I know that today that there is the president of the --
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I apologise for interrupting
you, Mr. Rudovic. Mr. Petrusic did say that he did not have any more
questions for you. We all know that you would have many, many, things to
tell us, and you are going to tell us in answering the questions put to
(25)you by Mr. Andrew Cayley. I hope I haven't changed his name. He's going
THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I am. I'm quite ready. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you. Mr. Cayley, your witness. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Good morning to my learned friends. I have very few questions, actually, for the witness. (10) • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Good morning, Mr. Rudovic. First of all, please accept on behalf of myself and my colleagues profound regret at the loss of your son and nephew during this war. I would like to direct your mind to Zepa and July of 1995, and I (15)have very few questions and it concerns a matter that you just mentioned, the evacuation of the civilians from Zepa. If you don't know the answers to the questions I ask you, you can simply say to the Judges that you don't know. First of all, after the fall of Zepa, did you ever hear of the (20)removal from a bus of 36 Muslims, including wounded individuals, by Serb forces? Did you ever hear about that? These were Bosniak soldiers being evacuated from Zepa. Did you understand the question? • A.: I understand the question. I never heard about that, nor did that happen where we were, anyway. (25)
• Q.: Did you ever hear, Witness, that after the fall of the enclave and
• A.: I never heard that he was murdered. I don't know. I know Palic, I knew him from before the war, but I never heard that he was murdered. (5)He was declared missing, that's all. • Q.: Did you ever hear, after the fall of Zepa and still to this day, that there are 118 missing Muslim men from the Zepa enclave? Did you ever hear about that? These are men who disappeared in July of 1995; they've never been seen again. (10) • A.: I never heard that. I don't know. Our former neighbours come by, and I never heard from any one of them that someone was missing. But probably there are some of them in Australia and they don't want to report. MR. CAYLEY: Your Honours, I won't read it out to the witness. I (15)direct you to Prosecutor's Exhibit 30, paragraphs 425 onwards. This is the report of the Secretary-General to the General Assembly on the fall of Zepa that discusses these matters. I have no further questions for the witness. Thank you very much, indeed. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, have you any additional questions? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. Judge Fouad Riad. (25)
JUDGE RIAD:
[Int.] Mr. President, I have no questions.
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps it would be better to have a short ten-minute break so that General Krstic can prepare and take his seat in the witness box. So we're going to have a short, ten-minute break. --- Break taken at 9.48 a.m. (15) --- On resuming at 10:05 a.m.
WITNESS: RADISLAV KRSTIC
[Resumed] • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Krstic, good morning. (20)Are you feeling well? • A.: Better, Your Honour.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. We will now resume
with our questions. You will remember that we were talking about the
procedure of the transmission of orders coming from the Commander-in-Chief
(25)when those orders are expected to be carried out by a unit of a brigade.
• A.: I said that orders can be issued in writing to subordinate officers and units, and also orally. A written order is a customary form of issuing orders and orders (5)are most frequently issued in that way. They may be transmitted by code or by handing the written order to the command of the subordinate unit or to the Commander of the subordinate unit. Oral orders are most frequently issued on the spot to the commanding officer whose unit is to carry out the order. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. But an order coming from the Main Staff for a brigade, does it have to go through the Corps Commander. We are talking in general terms. • A.: Such cases were not frequent. Most frequently orders do pass through the command of the Corps, but they may be addressed directly to (15)lower level subordinate units when we are talking about the Main Staff.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] We stopped when we were talking
about a specific order, Exhibit 709. We placed it under the ELMO at the
time, the exhibit. I will give you some information about it. Perhaps it
is not necessary to show it to you because you are familiar with it.
(20)That order is an order coming from the Main Staff and which
mentioned specifically Captain Trpic - do you remember that order in
connection with fuel - so that order was coming from the Main Staff for a
brigade and made specific mention of Captain Trpic. Do you remember that
order in connection with fuel? So that order was coming the Main Staff
(25)for a brigade and made specific mention of Captain Trpic. Do you remember
• A.: I do, but -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you need to see it, to see the order? (5) • A.: Yes. Yes, please. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam Registrar, can you give us Exhibit 709. General Krstic, you have in front of you this order coming from the General Staff, signed by General Mladic. And as you can see, it is (10)sent to a brigade and it mentions Captain Milorad Trpic. This order, according to the customary procedure, should it have gone through the Corps command or could it be addressed directly to this individual, Captain Milorad Trpic? • A.: It could have been addressed directly to that person. But from (15)this order, it can be seen that it says: "Attention: Command of the Drina Corps," then the logistic sector of the General Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, for the information to the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade. So this is a logistics body of the Drina Corps command. And in this document, General Mladic specifies the tasks which that officer needs (20)to carry out with approved quantities of fuel. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General Krstic, I'm sorry for interrupting you. So you have answered my question. Now let us look at the other side of the question. To whom should Captain Milorad Trpic report regarding the implementation of this order? (25)
• A.: He must report to the person issuing the order, in this case
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Is this a normal situation or an exceptional situation? • A.: This is a possible situation. The rules and regulations do make (5)provision for such a possibility, and in practice it may occur. So a higher level commanding officer is entitled to give orders to a lower level commanding officer as to what he should do. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. So let us now go on to another topic and another question. (10)You spoke at length about the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You said that a large number, and there are documents, a large number of soldiers, and particularly officers, left the Srebrenica enclave beginning with July 1994 to join their families in Tuzla. Would you agree with that conclusion, with that statement? (15) • A.: Yes, I did speak about that on the basis of documents of the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this was also visible throughout the period following the proclamation of the safe area of Srebrenica, that a certain number of members of the BH army left. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So you agree with that (20)statement. My question is the following: Do you know whether those soldiers were able to join the 2nd Corps of the army in Tuzla, or in any event was that what the VRS thought they did?
• A.: No. The members of the 28th Division in the safe area of
Srebrenica and Zepa did join the 2nd Corps of the army of
(25)Bosnia-Herzegovina and also the 1st Corps of the army of
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you know what exactly was the Operative Zone of the 28th Division? (5) • A.: The Operative Zone of the 28th Division, from the beginning of the outbreak of hostilities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, covered the territories of the municipalities of -- and I'm saying until the proclamation of the safe area, the municipalities of Vlasenica, Sekovici, Zvornik, Bratunac, Milici, Srebrenica, a part of Han Pijesak municipality, specifically I'm (10)referring to Zepa. So the whole of the area of Birac and central Podrinje and a part of upper Podrinje. When I'm saying "upper Podrinje," I'm thinking of Zepa, because Zepa belongs to the area of Gornja Podrinje. After the proclamation of Srebrenica and Zepa as safe areas, the area of responsibility of the 28th Division was the Srebrenica enclave and (15)Zepa. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you know what were the effectives of the 28th Division was as a whole, what their strength was?
• A.: I spoke about that at some length, and I said that Srebrenica and
Zepa were never demilitarised zones, even though they were proclaimed safe
(20)areas. And when those areas were declared safe areas, the 28th Division
was still armed. They had infantry weapons at their disposal and also
artillery weapons of a calibre up to 120-millimetres. And after
Srebrenica and Zepa were proclaimed safe areas, the 28th Division
continued to arm itself either by deliveries of weapons and ammunition
(25)from Tuzla, Kladanj, and Sarajevo, or those same weapons being delivered
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What you are telling us coincides with the assessment of the situation that you made for the Operation Krivaja 95? Does that coincide? In other words, the number of (5)troops present in Srebrenica and the quantity and quality of weaponry, are they what you have just said, or was there a change in the quality and quantity of troops and weapons for the Krivaja Operation? • A.: In any event, the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the areas of Zepa and Srebrenica were constantly organisationally promoting and (10)modernising the division as a whole, and its effectives and strength was increasing and they were arming themselves additionally, which is not logical. Because if the area was proclaimed a safe area, why, then, should the 8th Operative Group be changed to the 28th Division? Because, after all, a division is a much stronger and more powerful unit than an (15)operative group, and it has several brigades within it as well as independent units up to battalion strength.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You mentioned that the attack on
Srebrenica was launched with the aim of putting an end to sabotage
operations engaged in by BH forces and a number of operations were
(20)mentioned; for example, operations which started in November 1994, the
Operation Skakavac or Grasshopper, and you also mentioned the spring
offensive.
My question is the following: These three operations, are they
one and the same operation with different stages or are they quite
(25)independent and separate operations?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question, General Krstic: These operations, did they cover the whole territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina or did they apply solely to the eastern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina? (25)
• A.: The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina started the spring offensive first
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question, General (10)Krstic: The report of the UN Secretary-General notes, and I'll read it in English, that: [In English] " The most substantial military operation conducted by the Bosniaks of Srebrenica during the safe area period was the right of Visnjica," dated the 26th of June, 1995. Do you agree with this judgement or assessment? (15)
• A.: I would agree with the assessment. The main aim of the 28th
Division, from the moment the safe areas were proclaimed, was for
Srebrenica and Zepa to be physically linked and placed under the control
of the 28th Division, and later on for that area, via Mount Javor, to be
expanded towards Kladanj. The village of Visnjica lies there and also the
(20)area of the village of Banja Lucica, in the territory of the Han Pijesak
municipality; then the area of the village of Rijecica, which is on the
border between Han Pijesak municipality and Kladanj. So it was in this
area that most of the operations of the 28th Division were carried out,
operations of a diversionary and sabotage nature, and our population
(25)forces suffered the greatest casualties there.
(5) • A.: One of the aims, in addition to the armed -- to the military aims, was to supply foodstuffs. But it was not only the forces of the 28th Division that were short of food, they supplied also to the territories under Serb control, and there was a general shortage of food. So that the assistance that came from the International Community to the civilian (10)population of all three sides was also used by the military because there was no other food to be found. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General, you said in your testimony that the Commander of the 28th Division, Naser Oric, was on his way to Tuzla on the 28th of June, 1995. When do you think that he came (15)back from Sarajevo? And if you do know, how did you learn about it?
• A.: That the Commander of the 28th Division, General Naser Oric, left
the safe area of Srebrenica was something that we learnt earlier on from
intelligence reports, and we were later able to confirm this through the
exhibits and the Muslim documents showing that he did, indeed, leave the
(20)area of Srebrenica and that he went outside that area.
We were informed that with a large number of soldiers, members of
the 28th Division, he first went to Sarajevo to take part in the spring
offensive to deblock Sarajevo, and then later he was transferred to the
territory of Tuzla, within the 2nd Corps of the BH army, which was in
(25)command of the forces in Srebrenica, the strength of one battalion, in the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, General. I'd now like to go on to another set of questions. (5)When the operation against Srebrenica was launched in 1995, did you know that a first offensive had already been launched against Srebrenica in 1993? • A.: At the time I was the Commander of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, so this was not an offensive against Srebrenica but against the (10)broader area of Birac, and I have in mind, in the first place, Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and Nova Kasaba. That operation was provoked by the activities of the 28th Division, mostly provoked by their activities in the territory between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje, a group of villages, Kravica and other villages surrounding Kravica. It was carried out -- or, (15)rather, it started around the end of February, went on through March, and then also in April, when Srebrenica was declared a safe area. As I was saying, at that time I was the Commander of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, and the Commander of that operation -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry for interrupting you. (20)So you mentioned that after that Srebrenica was declared a safe area. Did you know that one of the reasons for declaring it a safe area was precisely the shortage of supplies, of foodstuffs, medicines, and so on?
• A.: It was not known at the time that that was the reason why
Srebrenica was declared a safe area. I understood it to be as protection
(25)of the civilian population.
• A.: You mean the shortage of food? (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. • A.: No, Mr. President, I did not know that that was the reason for the proclamation of Srebrenica as a safe area. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] When did you learn that the shortage of supplies was one of the reasons for declaring it a safe area? (10) • A.: I did not learn at all that that was the reason for proclaiming Srebrenica a safe area. I never learnt that. I said already that there were food shortages throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina equally among all three sides. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Specifically, General Krstic, (15)did you know that the first evacuation of Muslims from Srebrenica took place between March and April 1993? • A.: No, I did not have detailed information about that because I wasn't in the area. I was in the area around Kladanj, Olovo, and Vares. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Sorry for interrupting you. You (20)had no precise information? What type of information did you have regarding this first evacuation of Muslims?
• A.: I had no information about the evacuation of Muslims. But it was
visible that they were leaving the protected area partly through the area
of responsibility of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, through the positions of
(25)the 2nd Romanija Brigade, towards Kladanj. That there was some kind of
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Something else. At that time, 1993, March/April, who was the Commander of the Drina Corps? I think I know the answer but I'd like to hear it from you. (5) • A.: Ever since the Drina Corps was formed, until the 20th of July, 1995, that is, from November 1992 to the 20th of July, 1995, the Commander of the Drina Corps was General Zivanovic. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Another set of questions. Did you also know that an operation was launched against the (10)Gorazde enclave in April 1994 by General Mladic? • A.: I think this was in 1994 and not 1993. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, you are right. I was saying 1994. • A.: Yes. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You knew about this operation. Did you know what were the objectives of that operation? • A.: At the time I was still the Commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade. That operation took place at a time when the BH army launched an operation from Kladanj towards the territory of the municipality of Han (20)Pijesak and Vlasenica. I was not aware of the specific goals of that operation. It was under the command and control of General Mladic, and General Zivanovic was with him.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, but in any event, General
Krstic, now, taking into account the events we have discussed in 1993,
(25)Srebrenica, taking into account the events we referred to in Gorazde in
(5) • A.: Mr. President, as far as I personally am concerned, bearing in mind the aim that was to have been achieved by Operation Krivaja 95, which was the physical separation of the two enclaves, so it has absolutely nothing in common with these other operations, 1994 in Birac, in central Podrinje, and the spring of 1994 towards Gorazde. (10)This operation, Krivaja 95, was an operation of limited scope, very limited scope, to separate the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa and reach the lines that I have spoken about at length, and nothing more than that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Perhaps I can put that (15)question to you differently. In relation to the BH army or, rather, Bosnia-Herzegovina, the various operations that we have mentioned, Skakavac, the spring offensive, et cetera, were they one and the same or different operations? Now, let me put the question to you: In relation to an objective (20)which I don't know - perhaps you do - Srebrenica 1993, Gorazde 1994, and Srebrenica 1995, were they operations quite distinct and independent from one another or are they related in relation to a particular objective of the VRS?
• A.: These are different areas quite far removed from one another.
(25)When we are talking about the operation of central Podrinje and Birac in
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But, General Krstic, would you at least agree with me in saying that General Mladic, the Chief of the Main Staff, and the Commander of the Drina Corps, General Zivanovic, they (10)were present in several operations, or not? • A.: Yes. When we are talking about broader-scale operations, such as 1993, the spring of 1994, in both those areas, both the Commander of the Drina Corps, General Zivanovic, and the Commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Mladic, were present and they were in command and control of (15)those operations. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let me put another question to you, General Krstic. Who, in 1995, among the senior officers, participated also in the operation Srebrenica 1993 and possibly in the operation Gorazde 1994? We saw that Zivanovic and Mladic participated. (20)Are there officers in 1995 who participated also in these other operations?
• A.: I don't know which senior officers in addition to General
Zivanovic and General Mladic took part in the operations in 1993 and
1994. I really don't know because in those days I was a Brigade
(25)Commander. However, those same two senior officers were involved in the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Okay. Very well. General, let (10)us go on to another set of questions. You said that the former Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps, General Skocajic resigned in April of 1995 and that his resignation was motivated by a personal conflict with General Zivanovic. Did you know what the substance of that disagreement was, what it was about? (15)
• A.: Mr. President, I found it strange that after I was wounded and
after I left to the Military Medical Academy in Belgrade to be treated
that General Skocajic, as the former Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps,
was again called upon to carry out the duty of the Chief of Staff of the
Drina Corps. I learnt about that from people who came to visit me in
(20)hospital. General Skocajic is a highly educated officer who has graduated
from all levels of military schools, the Military Academy, the Staff
Academy, and the School of National Defence, and as such he was the Chief
of Staff of General Zivanovic. I said that I was surprised that he could
agree to go back to be Chief of Staff, which he was called to do by
(25)General Zivanovic through the Main Staff.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, but the question is -- yes, yes, please go ahead. (5) • A.: What I was able to learn, the main reason for him to leave that position was his disagreement with the method of control and command over the units of the Corps. Whether General Zivanovic and General Skocajic had some earlier differences when General Skocajic was the Chief of Staff of the Corps, I really wouldn't enter into that. But I have said what (10)kind of conflict it was with respect to General Skocajic. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, General Krstic. You also said that you didn't consider yourself to be highly appreciated by General Mladic and General Zivanovic, especially when you were the Commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade. You told us about that. You said (15)that when they visited you it was a very brief visit, whereas when they visited others they stayed longer. My question: Did you continue to feel this later on, and particularly during the operations against Srebrenica and Zepa?
• A.: I spoke about the relationship between General Zivanovic and
(20)myself, his relationship towards me, while I was the Commander of the 2nd
Romanija Motorised Brigade. Before that we never knew each other, that
is true, nor had we seen each other. I don't know why this relationship
was as it was, and perhaps this is not the place to say that.
My mother is a refugee from the village where I was born. She
(25)received accommodation somewhere in Vlasenica, temporary accommodation.
(15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Allow me, General Krstic, to interrupt you at this point. I think that I am having some difficulties here. General Skocajic was replaced, according to you, because he didn't agree with how the Drina Corps' command was being exerted. You were not appreciated by General Mladic and General (20)Zivanovic. Now, can we say that you were not appreciated but you were Chief of the Main Staff like General Skocajic because you agreed with the Commander and the way in which the Drina Corps' command was being exerted? Do you see my perplexities, the difficulties I'm having here?
• A.: When it comes to the relationship between Generals Skocajic and
(25)Zivanovic the same holds true for me. Perhaps I had done the same thing
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] As Chief of Staff of the Main Staff, but you accepted to be Commander of the Drina Corps, so that means that for you that would have been an opportunity to exercise command in a different fashion than it had been exercised previously by General (10)Zivanovic; is that right? • A.: Well, I had to accept the post of Commander, Corps Commander; I had to do so. And as Brigade Commander, I commanded differently from General Zivanovic. And as the Corps Commander, I exercised my commanding duties in a different way from General Zivanovic. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General, excuse me for interrupting. But you said that you did not do, as Chief of the Main Staff, what General Skocajic did because you did not have time, and I can understand that. But why, then, accept -- you had the time not to accept to be Commander of the Corps, you had all the time to refuse. (20) • A.: Mr. President, that was the situation, that was what the situation was like, that was what the time was like. Quite simply, the duties that I was assigned to I did not dare to refuse.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Excuse me. Could General
Zivanovic refuse to continue to be the Corps Commander? In a situation of
(25)war and an operation ongoing, could he have refused to continue until the
• A.: I don't know whether he could have refused. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] He could have refused. • A.: He and General Mladic don't know each other, only from the army of (5)Republika Srpska and during the duration of these operations. They have known each other for a much longer length of time, from the beginning of the war, from the outbreak of the conflict in the regions of the former Yugoslavia. They were together in Knin, for example, and then they came to Bosnia-Herzegovina together. And immediately after that, General (10)Zivanovic, that is to say, after a certain period of time, was appointed Commander of the Corps. He was highly respected by General Mladic. And I see no reason why he should have refused to perform that function. He was, until the end of the fighting for part of Srebrenica and Zepa, he was there [As interpreted] (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General, perhaps it is a time for a break. You may be a little tired and you need a rest, and so do we. Perhaps we can have a break now, a half-hour break. Yes, Mr. Visnjic, before the break. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, this last sentence of (20)General Krstic's, I think it is not correct in the transcript. General Krstic, I think, said that he was Commander until the end of the Srebrenica operation and part of the Zepa operation. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I was talking about General Zivanovic. (25)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Yes, General Zivanovic was the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So the transcript has now been corrected that General Krstic was talking about General Zivanovic. So we'll have a half-hour break now. (5) --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Are you ready to continue, General Krstic? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, Your Honour. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General, we heard here in the courtroom a speech by President Radovan Karadzic underlining your merits for planning and successfully completing the Srebrenica operation. You explained that that speech did not correspond to reality but that it illustrated even more the bad relations that existed at the time between (15)Karadzic and Mladic. Could you please specify the nature of those bad relations? And since when were they on bad terms?
• A.: It is difficult to talk about that. I think that an Assembly of
Republika Srpska, whether it was held in Sanski Most or Prijedor, I'm not
(20)quite sure - I think it was in Sanski Most, actually, in 1994, when there
were some conflicts and disagreements of opinion between President
Karadzic and General Mladic, I do not know exactly the nature of those bad
relations - but I would say that evidently it was about who was going to
be the leader, and I say this in quotations, "the leader of the Serbian
(25)people" in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Because both men, both of them, enjoyed
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But, General Krstic, if you did not agree with that speech because it did not correspond to reality, did you do anything to deny or correct the truth and to impose the truth? (5) • A.: That speech and mentioning me in the speech by President Karadzic is an absurdity. I didn't plan the operation; I didn't take part in the planning of the operation, just the realisation of the decisions of the Corps Commander with respect to the separation of the enclaves. Neither did I plan this and report about that to President Karadzic. That small (10)operation which was to have been realised was the decision of the Corps Command, was approved by the Commander of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska and not the Supreme Commander. The Supreme Commanders does not direct operations in the operational sense but of strategic importance. (15)I simply did not have occasion to -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General, I'm sorry for interrupting you. We know that already. You spoke to us about that. But my question was: You accepted that for the public at large, and even for Republika Srpska, you accepted that you had planned and conducted the (20)operation, and that is why I am asking you: What did you do to deny that, at least to render justice? Because if someone has merit, then that merit should be attributed to the right person. And after all, you let this pass and you accepted it; is that correct or not?
• A.: Mr. President, I did not accept that, but I did not deny it
(25)either. I didn't have the opportunity to do so. Quite simply, I did not
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question, General (10)Krstic, and another topic. You explained that certain brigades refused to obey Mladic's order to march on Srebrenica on the 10th of July, and I think, my impression is, that you said that those brigades fled. Do you agree with that? • A.: No. I do apologise, but I don't think that would be so. I didn't (15)say at all that the brigades had fled and that they did not wish to carry out General Mladic's orders. It was only a question of the fact that the Commander of the Zvornik Brigade, Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, at the meeting in Bratunac, told General Mladic, he said, "General, sir, we don't know where the 28th Division is," and the consequences to his (20)brigade would be great unless measures were undertaken.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Perhaps you are right. Perhaps
I misunderstood. But in any event, a Brigade Commander addresses himself
to the Commander-in-Chief to say, "You see, sir, that will not be good."
In a certain way, he is calling into question the orientation of the
(25)Commander-in-Chief.
• A.: I believe you had in mind when you were speaking about refusing orders, I assume you meant not to continue the attack on Srebrenica and (15)Potocari. And there was a suggestion of this kind and the request that we do not move towards Potocari, and that is what we succeeded in doing, not to go to Potocari, because there were a lot of civilians there, refugees from the town of Srebrenica and the surrounding villages. So that is something we succeeded in doing. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Excuse me. Yes, General Krstic,
and Mladic, in a certain sense, did reverse his position. General Mladic
was a personality, therefore, who would accept suggestions even from a
Brigade Commander. As for the Chief of Staff of the Corps, would he not
have accepted a suggestion from you? And this is not a hypothetical,
(25)because you saw that General Mladic did retrace his steps.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let us go on to another question (15)now. You said that Kosoric did not follow you after you stopped at -- after you stopped at Potocari, we've spoken about that at length, and that you only asked him to report to you on the 13th of July, at the forward command post at Krivaca. (20)My question: Why did you ask him to report to you? What was his task? What were the results that he was to report to you about?
• A.: Mr. President, I do apologise, but I did not ask at all for any
report from him. I did not ask him to report to me or submit a report of
any kind. I didn't say that. I just said that he should report to me at
(25)the forward command post at Krivaca with respect to his presence in the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another question: You explained that you were entrusted with the Zepa operation during the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, and you said in that connection that the (10)order required that they should regroup at Viogora, that the troops should regroup at Viogora. And you said the only unit entrusted with continuing the Srebrenica operation were those that depended directly on the Commander in Chief, that is, the 65th Protection Regiment, the 10th Sabotage Detachment, and the MUP forces; is that correct? (15) • A.: General Mladic, at the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, said that the 28th Division continued to be his concern and that the 65th Protection Regiment was present there, his battalion of the military police, the diversionary unit, and so on, and the detachment of the special MUP Brigade arrived too. That's what I said earlier on. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And those troops remained under his direct command; is that what you are saying?
• A.: I know for sure, and I say this with full responsibility, that the
battalion of the military police and the 10th Diversionary Unit was,
throughout, under his command. I don't know whether the detachment of the
(25)special MUP was also under his command; that, I don't know.
• A.: Mr. President, they were not reserve MUP forces, they were the station units of MUP within the rear of the territory, west of Zepa, towards Kladanj. And I'm thinking, first and foremost, of the station (10)units of MUP of the municipality of Han Pijesak, and co-action with those units is mentioned in preventing the possible operations of combat groups, units, from Zepa, of the BH army, towards Kladanj, with respect to the civilian population. Nothing else. So just co-action with those units. And they executed their customary, usual, regular tasks. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Krstic, what were the regular duties of MUP forces?
• A.: It was wartime and throughout the war the regular MUP tasks/duties
were to see that law and order was enforced throughout the territory where
there was no army, because the army was up at the front. And their focal
(20)task was to ensure security of the vital facilities, the facilities
essential to life and work, the life and work of the people; to ensure
security for those positions, such as communication, the waterworks
and sewage system, and other things of that kind, which were important to
the functioning of the system of authority in the republic.
(25)I apologise, Mr. President. The special MUP Brigade was a combat
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You have stated that the 6th Protection Regiment, though it is not quoted in the order for the attack on Zepa, the order that we have been discussing, did participate in that (5)attack because it was in the area. So the 6th Regiment [sic], was it attached to you? Did it come under your command? • A.: Mr. President, it is the infantry battalion that I spoke about, and I spoke about it at length, and the witness spoke about that today as well. It is the battalion which was in the area since the beginning of (10)the conflict and it was engaged towards Zepa. They are people, elderly people. They were made up of elderly members. And when organising the operation towards Zepa, that battalion was at those positions and was, indeed, included in executing the tasks towards Zepa. They received their assignment from their superior commanding officer. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. But, General Krstic, I think that my understanding was that this 6th Protection Regiment prevented you from passing through Potocari on the 12th of July. Was it deployed for both operations then?
• A.: Mr. President, the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment was located
(20)in several localities in that part of Republika Srpska. Its command, with
two more battalions, was engaged in offering security for the Main Staff
of the army in Han Pijesak. One battalion was deployed towards Zepa as a
combat unit continuously, and we mentioned that a moment ago.
Then the battalion of the military police of the 65th Regiment was
(25)located in Nova Kasaba throughout, and part of the mechanicised Battalion
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, General Krstic. So the operation launched against Zepa, as the Commander entrusted with the preparation and conduct of that operation, what were the measures that you (10)envisaged to take in relation to civilians and prisoners of war which you might capture in Zepa? • A.: On the whole, we fully applied the provisions from the existing rules and regulations and the Geneva Conventions when it comes to the civilian population of Zepa and the prisoners of war, and I am thinking of (15)members of Zepa Brigade within the compositions of the 28th Division, and we did not deviate from that at all. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. But what are the measures that you envisaged in the planning and the implementation of the Zepa operation? What measures did you make provision for? (20) • A.: The complete protection -- complete protection for the civilian population, and nobody was allowed to do anything against that. And when it came to prisoners of war, we applied procedures that were prescribed for the treatment of the prisoners of war.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, General, another question:
(25)The report of the United Nations Secretary-General indicates that General
• A.: The negotiations, when it came to the evacuation of the (10)population, that was done by the Main Staff. I was not involved in that. I don't know how General Mladic could have informed anyone that on the 19th of July, the enclave of Zepa had fallen when that is not true. Perhaps he was able to draw this conclusion from the negotiations at the time which he had with the representatives of the authorities from Zepa, (15)and the representatives of the army from Zepa. But the Zepa enclave fell far later, at the end of July, 1st of August. It is true that the civilians had been evacuated earlier on from the area; that's true.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. But, General, you planned
the Zepa operation and you were in command of the Zepa operation. Being
(20)in that position, did you know in advance how many buses and other things
would be needed to evacuate the local population? Because the objective
of the Zepa operation was to capture Zepa and there were civilians there,
the population. So you, as the planner of that operation, you should have
envisaged a whole series of measures to deal with that situation. Did you
(25)envisage how many buses, what quantity of supplies you would need for the
• A.: The whole business around the refugees was done by the Main Staff, (5)headed by General Mladic. They were in charge of everything. They conducted negotiations with the representatives of the civilian authorities, the army. We had not planned the evacuation of the population. The objective was just to disarm the Zepa Brigade and not to evacuate the population as well. (10)General Mladic succeeded in arriving at an agreement for the evacuation of the population and he ensured the necessary number of buses and decided upon the route that the buses were to take in evacuating the population, and which measures were to be undertaken when the population was leaving Zepa on territory under Serb control, and their further (15)transport onwards. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General Krstic, and I'm sorry for interrupting again. Are you telling us that General Mladic, when he ordered you to go on Zepa, did he tell you at a certain point in time, "Disarm the Zepa Brigade, that is your task. The civilian (20)population, that is my problem." Did he tell you that at any point in time?
• A.: Not in that sense, he didn't say it in that sense. He said what
is written in the order. And I was in command of the army against the
Zepa Brigade, and everything else was his concern, and what he did later
(25)on with respect to the evacuation of the population.
• A.: Not all of them should have been considered combatants. Men until the age of 16 or men over the age of 60, they should not have been (10)considered combatants. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General, I should now like to go on to some more practical issues, if I may call them that. What was the size of the territory in square kilometres that came under the jurisdiction of the Drina Corps? (15) • A.: I really can't say now and express it in square kilometres. But how big the area is, all I can tell you -- I can just give you the borders of it, of the zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] That won't be necessary. My question has to do with the fact that there is a lot of difficulty in (20)learning about things, but I had the impression that the territory was smaller than one would have us believe.
• A.: No, Mr. President, the territory was vast, it was a large
territory; in the south, stretching towards Gorazde; in the north, to
between Zvornik and Janja; to the west, up to Kladanj, Olovo, and Vares;
(25)and to the east, to the River Drina. That is an enormous territory.
• A.: It is large for the simple reason that the Drina Corps did not have as many members, for example, as the 1st Krajina Corps, which had over 50.000 men within it. The Drina Corps had at the most about 18.000 men, and the territory was vast, as I say, so everything was -- all the (10)men were engaged. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I should like to go back to another question, General Krstic. When you planned the Zepa operation, you had to use a whole series of information regarding the 28th Division or the Zepa Brigade, et cetera. What was the information that you used to (15)plan the operation? • A.: Information, we had to -- when it comes to information, we had to bear in mind a lot of factors; first of all, the terrain itself where the operation was to have taken place.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] And for that you had a map, a
(20)map giving you the configuration of the terrain. But information about
the effectives of the 28th Division, specifically the Zepa Brigade, the
quantity of weapons, what possibilities they had of movement. I don't
know. I'm not a military man, but I think in order to plan a certain
operation, you need information. So my question is: What were your
(25)sources of information?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I should like to go a little further, General Krstic. Did you have the chance of having information (20)obtained, if I can say so, from the enemy in order to be able to plan the operation?
• A.: No. At that time we had no information from the BH army forces
from the Zepa region. We did not have any. We just had some information
which was collected up until the time the offensive was undertaken towards
(25)Zepa, and those came from the units which were in contact with the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] To go even further, did the VRS intercept radio communications by the BH army? • A.: Well, I don't know whether it did intercept or not, the telephone (5)lines, and I don't know what the facilities were of that unit -- of the units of the 28th Division, what they had to intercept radio communication. When it comes to the Zepa Brigade, we at that time really didn't have any information that we received through intercepts. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But, General, I'm sorry for (10)interrupting again. To be more direct, I can accept that you did not know what resources and equipment they had, but can you admit that the VRS did use information that was intercepted -- the intercepted radio communications among the BH army? • A.: I personally, as Brigade Commander, I was the Brigade Commander, (15)and when I was, I did not have any information received through intercepts, nor was my brigade in a position to have -- it didn't have that kind of communications devices to carry out these intercepts. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And as the Chief of Staff and later as the Corps Commander? (20)
• A.: As the Corps Commander and Chief of Staff, I said that I was there
for a short space of time; I performed that function for a short space of
time. The first document I saw was the one I saw here presented as
evidence from the leader of the radio reconnaissance unit of the Drina
Corps, which was obtained through intercepting conversations. But I still
(25)feel that that is highly unreliable information.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence does have a witness who will testify without any protective measures. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So we'll have a 15 -- MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Excuse me, Mr. President. I think before we bring in the witness we should deal with the documents, because we have come to the end of General Krstic's testimony. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, and there are many of them, (15)I think. Okay. That's a good suggestion. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Or it has just occurred to me that perhaps we can try to coordinate views with the Prosecution first before we address the matter in court, in the course of the day, this afternoon perhaps. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, perhaps. I think there are very many documents. Does the Prosecution agree with this suggestion of Mr. Petrusic? Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: Yes. We've had discussions previously, but we are
(25)quite happy to engage in additional discussions on these documents.
(5) --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.37 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I can. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You are now going to read the solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: MILANKO RADULOVIC JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated, and try and get yourself comfortable and relax. You are now going to be answering questions put to you by Mr. Petrusic, and then you will be answering questions from the (20)Prosecution and possibly from the Judges. But Mr. Petrusic will start. Your witness, Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President. • EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:
• Q.: Witness, will you introduce yourself, please? Give us your name
(25)and surname.
• Q.: And you have completed secondary schooling? • A.: Yes. I'm an electrician by profession. (5) • Q.: Do you work? • A.: Yes. I work in Han Pijesak, where I live with my family. • Q.: Mr. Radulovic, I have told you this before, I think, but please try and make pauses between my question and your answer. Wait for 10 to 15 seconds, please, before you give us your answer because everything is (10)being interpreted and the interpreters have to do their work, and it's difficult to know what the question is and what the answer is if we hurry. Mr. Radulovic, tell us, please, you're married, you're a family man. (15) • A.: Yes, I am. • Q.: Could you tell us where you were at the beginning of the armed conflict in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Where did you find yourself in 1992? But just slowly, nice and slowly, please, with breaks in between. (20) • A.: In Han Pijesak, my native town, I lived there with my family. • Q.: When did you join the army of Republika Srpska? • A.: I joined the army at the beginning of April 1992. • Q.: And at the beginning of April, that was the former Yugoslav People's Army, was it not? (25)
• A.: Yes, it was the former Yugoslav People's Army, and it was the
• Q.: Could you tell us what unit? Be more specific, please. • A.: It was the unit which was composed of local inhabitants. And at the beginning of the war, they took up positions in the surrounding (5)villages in the municipality of Han Pijesak. • Q.: Did it have a name of any kind, that unit? • A.: When the JNA withdrew, it came under the 1st Romanija Brigade. • Q.: So as a member of the 1st Romanija Brigade, you were sent to what position? Just give us a pause. (10) • A.: We went to Han Pijesak, the position there, the village of Jelovci, Borovine. The village of Jelovci, Borovine. • Q.: Is that near Zepa? • A.: From that village to Zepa, it is approximately 20 kilometres. But the Muslim villages were closer by, Stoborane, Plane, Borovac. (15) • Q.: So you were with your unit in the village of Jelovci and Borovine; and on the other side, opposite those villages, as you have said, there was Plane, Podgora, Pozeplje, and that was where the members of the Muslim army were. • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: At that time, that is to say, the summer of 1992, were there any conflicts between your unit and the members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at those positions, at the positions you held? • A.: Not at first, no. Up until the beginning of June, the units from the area around Plane, I don't know what the name of that unit was -- (25)
THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. We couldn't follow what the witness
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: So those were the only conflicts at that time, during the summer of 1992. (5) • A.: There was a conflict on the 7th of August, when the village of Borovine was attacked, in 1992. • Q.: By the Muslim army? • A.: Yes, by the Muslim army. • Q.: And the village of Borovine was inhabited by a civilian (10)population, or was it an entrenched military position? • A.: No. It was the civilian population, and a portion of the army was there too, as well. JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Just a second. What kind of civilian population was in the village of Borovine? (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Mr. Radulovic, you heard the question by Judge Riad. Would you try and answer the question? Which civilian population was located in the village of Borovine? • A.: Your Honour, the local inhabitants, the people who live in that (20)village. • Q.: And their ethnicity was? • A.: It was Serbian. They were of Serb ethnicity. JUDGE RIAD: Completely Serb, or composed of several ethnicities? (25)
• A.: Your Honour, they were only Serbs, exclusively Serbs.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: You know that at the beginning -- that is to say, in the spring of 1993, a safe area of Zepa was formed. (5) • A.: Yes, I know that. • Q.: At that time were you still a member of the 1st Romanija Brigade? • A.: No, I was not. We were the 65th Protection Regiment. • Q.: Did your unit continue to hold the position as a unit of the 65th Protection Regiment? (10) • A.: Yes, it did. • Q.: We know that the 65th Protection Regiment had several battalions. Could you tell us what your battalion was at that position? • A.: It was the infantry battalion, composed of younger and older people. The ages ranged from 25 to 50. (15) • Q.: Can we then say that the members of that infantry battalion were mostly local inhabitants of Han Pijesak or, rather, the environs of Han Pijesak? • A.: Yes, they were the inhabitants of Han Pijesak and the surrounding area. (20) • Q.: The positions around the protected zone, the safe area, of Zepa, was that held by your battalion alone, that infantry battalion of the 65th Regiment, or were there other units there as well? • A.: My battalion held the region of Borovac, Godjenje, and Pozeplje --
THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat that last
(25)sentence.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Mr. Radulovic, in addition to your own unit, what other units held the position around Zepa? Just make pauses, please. (5) • A.: The Rogaticka Brigade held that position in addition to us. • Q.: The Rogaticka Brigade, is that its usual name? But as to establishment and formation of the Drina Corps, it was the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade; do you know that? • A.: No, I don't. (10) • Q.: Tell us, Mr. Radulovic, in July 1995, where were you and your unit located? Please make pauses. Go ahead. • A.: In July 1995, I was located at Ocadzalo Sarajevo, and part of the men from three companies, about 40 people, went to Kosara. • Q.: So part of the men from your battalion was transferred at an (15)earlier period to a place called Ocadzalo, in the region, that is to say, the zone of responsibility, of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: From there, the Ocadzalo place, did you return to the Zepa area? (20) • A.: I returned to the Zepa area on the 15th of July. • Q.: Following whose orders? On whose orders did your unit reach the Zepa area on the 15th of July? Pursuant to whose orders? • A.: Pursuant to the order of the Commander of the Battalion. • Q.: Who was the Battalion Commander at that time? (25)
• A.: Radivojevic.
• A.: Yes, he did. He was a major. • Q.: So in the Zepa area you arrived on the 15th of July, when combat operations started; is that correct? (5) • A.: Yes. That's when I got there. • Q.: Do you know who led, that is to say, commanded, the operation at Zepa? • A.: When I got there, I heard from the people who were already there that General Krstic was in command of the operation. (10) • Q.: Did you know which duty, which post, General Krstic held at the time in the command of the Drina Corps? • A.: General Krstic at that time performed the function of Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps. • Q.: Did you, until the end of the operation at Zepa, with your unit, (15)stay in that locality? Did you remain there? • A.: Yes, we did. • Q.: During the combat, who issued orders to you, to your unit? • A.: We received orders from the company leader and Battalion Commander; the Battalion Commander would issue orders to the company (20)leader and he would issue orders to us. • Q.: Do you know whether your battalion, the infantry battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment, at that time, whether it was attached to the Drina Corps? • A.: I don't know. I don't think it was. (25)
• Q.: Why don't you think it was?
• Q.: In those combat operations which took place, your battalion, quite (5)naturally, had its left and right neighbour, as they say in the army; is that true? • A.: Yes, that's true. • Q.: Do you happen to know who was one of your neighbours, one of those two neighbours? (10) • A.: On the one side there was the Drina Corps, and we were on the right. It was to the left. • Q.: And who commanded that left flank? • A.: I don't know. It was a little further off from us. • Q.: During those combat operations, did you and your unit have any (15)prisoners? • A.: My unit had two prisoners, and we turned them over to the battalion command. Later on I heard that they were exchanged. • Q.: Do you know anything about -- whether it was talked about, whether people said that some Muslims had disappeared, that Muslim soldiers, in (20)fact, had disappeared from the Zepa area? • A.: Well, I don't know. I didn't hear anything like that. • Q.: How long did you remain at Zepa? • A.: I remained -- we remained at Zepa until the 15th of August, thereabouts. The 15th or the 20th of August. (25)
• Q.: And where did you go after that?
• Q.: Was your battalion command still -- at that time did it still issue orders on the basis of which you acted? (5) • A.: At the end of August, we passed over to the 1st Romanija Brigade. The unit, at the end of August, joined the 2nd Romanija Brigade. • Q.: As I understood it, it was transformed to become the 2nd Romanija Brigade; is that it? • A.: Yes. (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no further questions for this witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, Mr. Petrusic. I see Mr. McCloskey about to rise. Mr. Radulovic, you will now be answering questions put to you (15)by the Prosecution. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: • Q.: Good afternoon, Mr. Radulovic. • A.: Good afternoon. • Q.: The 65th Protection Regiment, you were in that regiment for how (20)long? • A.: I was in it from May 1993 until August 1995. • Q.: And what was your position and rank at that time? • A.: I had the rank of a regular soldier, a private. • Q.: And your job was as an infantryman, carrying a rifle? (25)
• A.: Yes, of course.
• A.: I don't know exactly; I don't know the exact number. There was a police battalion. I don't know by heart the establishment. I wasn't an (5)officer. • Q.: Did you ever get together and have reunions with your old unit? • A.: We did meet. • Q.: And did that include other battalions besides your infantry battalion? (10) • A.: No. Other people from outside the area were in those units whom I didn't know. • Q.: Did you ever get together with the people from the other battalions? • A.: I probably did, but rarely. I didn't know them. They were not (15)locals; they were from other parts. • Q.: In 1995, where was the military police battalion located? • A.: I don't know that. • Q.: Did you know of a group that was in the area of Nova Kasaba? • A.: No, I did not. (20) • Q.: Did you hear of the 65th Protection Regiment being involved in the Srebrenica operation, or the operation shortly after Srebrenica in the area of Nova Kasaba and Bratunac?
• A.: At the time of the fall of Srebrenica, I was at Ocadzalo, near
Sarajevo. So on the 15th of July, I came to the positions in Zepa. So I
(25)didn't know, I wasn't aware of these things.
• A.: Which enclave? • Q.: Srebrenica. (5) • A.: I really don't know. I'm not familiar with any such information. • Q.: Did you hear of any casualties, any of the people from the 65th Regiment that were killed in actions with the Muslim column fleeing from Srebrenica? • A.: I don't know. (10) • Q.: Did you or did you not hear of any members of your regiment being killed? • A.: I did not. I don't know about that. MR. McCLOSKEY: No further questions, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, any additional (15)questions? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge Fouad Riad? Yes, Judge Wald. • QUESTIONED by the Court: (20)
JUDGE WALD: I just have one question, Mr. Radulovic.
During the period that you were up in the vicinity of Zepa,
between July 15th and the time that you left, August 15th, did you ever
hear any rumours, allegations, charges, gossip, anything dealing with
Muslim prisoners or members of the Muslim column being executed or killed
(25)when they were going toward Tuzla from Srebrenica? Did you ever hear
• A.: I heard that information about Srebrenica when I returned from (5)Herzegovina, that something had happened there, when the campaign started against -- JUDGE WALD: And when would that be, approximately. The date, the month, whenever. • A.: Beginning of October. (10) JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Radulovic, how did you learn about that information regarding the events of Srebrenica? • A.: I learnt about that on television. When I returned from Herzegovina, I saw reports on television. I can't express myself. I (15)heard about these people who had been accused of it. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] When you heard this on television, did people speak amongst themselves about what they saw on television? • A.: Yes, yes. There were comments in cafes, squares, restaurants, (20)homes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did you have the impression that all the people had learnt about this only after that date, or were there people who said, "I already knew about this before"?
• A.: Some people did know from earlier on, but I learnt about them
(25)later.
• A.: Well, I don't know. They were saying that something had happened. No one knew exactly what had happened and what the official (5)report was. That was just on television at the beginning. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Mr. Radulovic, you have completed your testimony here at the International Criminal Tribunal. We thank you very much for coming here, and we wish you a safe journey to your home. I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you. Thank (10)you very much.
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think that everyone is waiting for this moment to have a break, I think. (15)Mr. Visnjic, you have something to say before we break? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, for after the break, we have prepared the next witness, but the Registry has cautioned me that perhaps it would be advisable to propose protective measures for this witness. He has requested a pseudonym, distortion of face and voice. So (20)I have been advised that we should make that request before the break so that the technical services can prepare for the protective measures.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Perhaps we should go into
private session to discuss the reasons for this request for protective
measures.
(25)Mr. Registrar.
--- Recess taken at 1.13 p.m. (15)
--- On resuming at 2.03 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good afternoon, Witness DE. Can you hear me well? THE WITNESS: [No interpretation] (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You are now going to read the solemn declaration which the usher is going to hand to you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS DE
THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] To be able to hear the witness without voice distortion, it is necessary to use channel 7. So there is a (5)small technical problem that needs to be addressed. JUDGE RODRIGUES: Now I can hear the English booth. THE INTERPRETER: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And as for the French booth, is everything all right? Yes. And the B/C/S booth? Yes. (10)And as for the counsel, Mr. Petrusic, is everything all right for you? Can you follow? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I'm getting the English or, rather, the B/C/S, but I am hearing it on channel 6. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Is everything all right for you, (15)Mr. Visnjic? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, everything is fine. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I would like to ask General Krstic whether he is able to follow the discussion. THE ACCUSED: [Int.] Yes, Your Honour. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] That's fine. So we can continue now. The usher is going to show you a piece of paper, Witness DE, on which your name should be written. And please tell us, yes or no, whether that is, indeed, your name. (25)
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Yes.
(5) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, to begin with I would like to ask the witness a few questions regarding his personal particulars, so I would suggest that we go into private session.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Let us go into private
session.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are in open session now, Mr. Visnjic. Please continue. (25)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.]
• A.: After this date I took up duty as Commander of the Engineers Battalion of the Drina Corps, which was in the process of establishment. (5) • Q.: When did you take up that duty? • A.: I do not have the exact date, but I reckon it was about a month after I handed over these duties. • Q.: Could you explain to Their Honours, what does this Engineers Battalion in the process of formation actually mean? It is rather (10)unusual. • A.: It means that in formal and legal terms, from the moment I signed the report on the handing over of duty, and when I received an order on my appointment, I was the Commander of the Engineers Battalion. In legal terms, I was legally liable, and everything that I was entitled to as a (15)Battalion Commander in terms of rights and obligations came into effect. However, these words "in the process of establishment," meant that actually I was my own Commander, because there was no unit. And roughly up to the time of the events we will be discussing, I managed to form a unit with a strength of roughly one engineers platoon in the combat (20)element and two platoons as non-combat elements, which means a total of some 90 men under my command from then on. • Q.: You said combat and non-combat sections. Could you explain that? What do you mean?
• A.: Combat elements are those that we used in combat operations and
(25)which were fully fit and capable of carrying out combat operations; and
• Q.: What was envisaged according to establishment for the Corps engineers?
• A.: The armies that were in the process of being established in the
(10)former Yugoslavia after it was dissolved mostly used the rules and
regulations that they had inherited from the former JNA. The Drina Corps
was also supposed to use the Rules of Service of the Corps, and according
to those Rules of Service, it was regulated that the Corps should have a
Chief of Engineering, Engineering Units, an Engineers Platoon, and a
(15)Pontoon Bridge Battalion. But due to the situation in the Corps area in
terms of lack of resources and the problems with engineering activities,
and because of the inability to find manpower, and because of quite
developed brigade engineers units, we decided to form an Engineers
Battalion that was taken out of the division as a formation.
(20)But as we had the Drina River as an obstacle on which we carried
out certain activities, and this fits within the area of pontoon bridge
construction work, we made some changes there. So we tried to include a
part of that Pontoon Bridge Unit. As we had a large number of engineering
works in the area of the Corps' responsibility, we formed a Construction
(25)Unit which mostly engaged in construction work and which, according to
• Q.: If I understood you correctly, that meant that you just had the (5)nucleus of the special separate services and branches, that is to say, you were endeavouring, up until the summer of 1995, to develop those nuclei from which that Corps -- which to allow you to have full manpower later on. Am I right in saying so? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: I'd like to ask the usher to show the witness -- MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] I'm afraid, Mr. President, we once again have to move into private session for this next document because the document identifies the witness. It is 404, Prosecution Exhibit 404, 318. Exhibit 404, 318 footnote. For purposes of the record, it was 404, (15)footnote 188.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Let us move into private session
now, please, to be able to place the document on the ELMO.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, you may continue. We are in open session. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] (20) • Q.: With respect to the previous exhibit that you have just seen, is one of the ways in which you supplied -- that is to say, formed, established your unit, was it precisely supplying it with materiel and technical devices from the subordinate units of the brigade? Did they give over part of their equipment to your unit? (25)
• A.: Well, in addition to this, let me go back to what you asked me a
• Q.: One more question. Let us repeat for the purposes of the record: Is it true that probably the only resources -- the only thing you got was the truck that was mentioned in the document, because it said in the (15)transcript that you didn't get anything. Just that one truck; is that right? • A.: As far as I remember, that was the only resource -- piece of equipment we received. Engineering and passenger vehicles, that's another matter. That is something large. (20)
• Q.: So the engineers unit of the Drina Corps was to be a strong unit.
But in the spring of 1995 -- I apologise. Just one moment. I'll
continue. I apologise.
In the spring of 1995, although it was supposed to be a serious,
strong unit formation-wise, the engineers unit of the Drina Corps was
(25)still a fledgling organisation under formation and did not have within its
• A.: Yes, that is true; that is to say, for the most part, we had succeeded in forming nuclei from which we thought we would develop units (5)from later on. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Will the usher now show the witness Exhibit 160/4 and 160/1. It is a Prosecution exhibit -- two Prosecution exhibits. Mr. President, perhaps we can use our copies, make our copies (10)available to you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, thank you, Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] 160/1, that will be. • Q.: You have before you, sir, a satellite image used by the Prosecution in presenting evidence in its part of the proceedings. Please (15)focus on the sector marked A, the A section. • A.: Yes. • Q.: On this section you can see heavy vehicles, trucks. I think you can see four of them; is that right? • A.: Yes. (20) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] And I'd like to ask the usher to place, straight after this, Exhibit 160/4. It's the same aerial image but from a different angle. 160/4. • Q.: Sir, are these the vehicles that were to be found in the location of Konjevic Polje in 1995 and 1996 -- (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Yes, that's right, yes. • Q.: As opposed to what we discussed earlier on, on this particular picture, 160/4, this appears to be a serious base of materiel and (5)technical equipment. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what these vehicles are and what their purpose was? • A.: What you have seen in the two documents shown are a launching bridge, heavy launching bridge, on the Kras type of vehicle. In Konjevic Polje, it was brought from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to (10)Konjevic Polje. It was brought by the crew of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the crew that knew how to handle it and work with this vehicle. And these vehicles never moved from this locality, this spot, until the NATO-pact aviation targeted the bridge at Rogatica. That was the first time when these -- that these vehicles were moved from here and taken to (15)that locality to launch the bridge, launch a bridge. For them to be moved, I had to call the same crew from the SRK to move the vehicles. By establishment, this bridge should have been in the core, but quite obviously we didn't have the crew necessary for that kind of bridge, to man the bridge. (20)Now, why was it here at all? Let me explain that locality of Konjevic Polje, if I may.
• Q.: Well, I have a set of questions relating to Konjevic Polje later
on, and we're nearing the end of today's proceedings. Let me just ask
you: Can you tell us when those vehicles arrived in the region of
(25)Konjevic Polje? When was that?
(5) • Q.: How long? Give us a time frame. • A.: Well, quite a long time. I don't know. I don't think time is important. But they were there for rather a long period of time. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: The exchange is going back and forth so quickly, (10)Your Honour, I'm not getting everything that's being said. If we could slow it down, I'd appreciate it. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, that is an indication of the general character of the work the interpreters have to do when you speak so quickly. (15)Witness, you can't hear the interpreters, but they do exist, let me assure you. They're like God; they're there but we don't see them. So just bear in mind that between you, yourself, and Mr. Visnjic we have an interpreter. So please slow down and make pauses. Please continue, Mr. Visnjic. (20) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I think our time is up, perhaps, and we could slow down for good for today.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, I think that's a very good
suggestion, and then you can organise your questions a little better,
perhaps.
(25)Witness DE, we're going to stop there for today and continue
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of (5)November, 2000, at 9.20 a.m. |
