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/ Colormap • Page 6242 • {1/86} (1)Friday, 20 October 2000 [Open session] [The witness takes the stand] --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, technical booth, interpreters; good morning, league assistants and registrar, the Office of the Prosecutor, Defence counsel; good morning, General Krstic. We shall resume our work now, and at the end of the day, perhaps we can have a small Status Conference to see exactly where we stand with (10)relation to the translation of documents but for the moment, we will resume, and, Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor, please. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours, my learned friends from the Prosecution, and good morning to all others present in the courtroom. (15)
WITNESS: RADISLAV KRSTIC
[Resumed] • EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: To remind you of where we stopped with the testimony yesterday, we will continue referring to the 13th of July and your movements, General, (20)on that day. So you reached the forward command post Krivaca, as you explained to us yesterday, around 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon. Who was present in the area of deployment of the units that were to be engaged in that area?
• A.: In the area of deployment of units that were attacking from the
(25)direction of Han Pijesak and Rogatica, the units of the 1st Zvornik
• Q.: Did you meet with the commanders of those units? • A.: Yes. That afternoon, as soon as I reached the forward command post, all the commanders of the units that were attacking from the direction of Han Pijesak and Rogatica were there, as well as the (10)commanders of the units that were going to attack from the area of Podravanje, Brestovik, Orlov Kamen, towards Zepa. • Q.: Was Colonel Blagojevic there as well? • A.: Yes. At the forward command post, Colonel Blagojevic was also present. (15) • Q.: He was the Commander of the Bratunac Brigade, wasn't he? • A.: Yes. He was the Commander of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade. • Q.: Did you issue him any orders? • A.: As I did to all the other commanders. I assigned him his task as (20)well, handed him the order for the attack and for the engagement of his brigade. • Q.: Did you, on that occasion, also issue any oral orders?
• A.: Yes, I did. I gave him oral orders relative to bringing one of
his battalions for the purpose of taking up positions behind the road. To
(25)take up positions behind the Vlasenica, Han Pogled, Han Pijesak, Han Kram,
• Q.: What was his main axis of activity and movement? Just wait a moment for the interpretation, please. (5) • A.: No. That was only -- this only related to a part of the Bratunac Brigade, that is, to one battalion of that brigade, but it is also linked to the task assigned to the brigade with regard to Zepa, the main aim being capturing positions behind this line of communication to protect Serb villages in that part of the territory from any possible activity by (10)forces from Zepa should they make a breakthrough toward Olovo and Kladanj. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. Usher, could I ask you for document 69, 70, and 71. D69, D70, and D71, please. So Exhibit D69, issued by the army of the Republic of (15)Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 205th [sic] Zepa Brigade. The number is 08-22-201/95, dated the 17th of June, 1995. It is a report signed by the Chief of Staff, Ramo Cardakovic. • Q.: General, could you please comment on this report in the context of the overall situation in the area? (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, Judge Wald draws my attention that the reference is not correct. The 17th of July, it should say, and not June, and the 285th.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] So let me repeat. The document is
08-22-201/95, dated the 17th of July, 1995, issued by the Chief of Staff,
(25)Ramo Cardakovic, on behalf of the 285th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade
• A.: One of the possible directions for the breakthrough of the 28th Division from the safe area of Srebrenica, in addition to the direction Srebrenica, Konjevic Polje, Udrc, Tuzla was also the direction Srebrenica, (5)Podravanje, Brestovik, Zepa. A corridor had been established along that route already which the forces of the 28th Division had used for various purposes and to carry out various tasks. This document, this notice, which the Command of the 285th Zepa Brigade is sending to the Command of the 81st Division in Gorazde, says (10)that up to that date a total number of 201 soldiers had arrived from Srebrenica. This report describes the condition of those soldiers, saying that they are fatigued and that many have sustained wounds. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Let us proceed to document D70, please. (15) • Q.: It is also a notification of the 285th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade Zepa, number 08-22-249/95, dated the 20th of July, 1995, issued by Velid Delic. The acronym is SJB Srebrenica. Do you link this document to the previous one? • A.: Yes. It can be seen from this document that forces from the safe (20)area of Srebrenica are continuing to arrive in the area of Zepa, and on the list we have their names and surnames and the number. The Command of the 285th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade in Zepa wants to check their particulars, and to do so it is contacting those responsible, that is, the addressee of this report. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] And so we come to document D71.
• A.: Yes, this document is another in the series of the previous two that we have discussed. The Command of the 285th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade from Zepa is sending to its Superior Command in Tuzla this list of fighters who had (10)arrived and who belong to the 28th Division from Srebrenica. From the heading we can see that the vast majority come from the 28th Mountain Battalion, which was an elite unit of the 28th Division in Srebrenica. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could I ask the usher for document 463, Prosecution Exhibit 463, please. (15) THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone. Microphone, please. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There's a problem. I switched to another translation channel. I think that the English court reporters are not following the English. I was following the French and then I (20)suddenly got the English. THE COURT REPORTER: There was no translation, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So let us see if things are better now. Mr. Petrusic, could you repeat your question, please? (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[No interpretation]
(5) MR. HARMON: I was listening to the English, but I didn't get the English on my headset. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] If you switch to the French channel, you will be hearing the English. Wonders will never cease. Is there a problem? (10) THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. Can you hear me? Can you hear the English? Are you receiving the English? No? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, yes, we can hear you. And the French booth? Yes. I heard the English booth well and I also heard the French booth well. So let us try once again. (15)Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Unfortunately, I didn't get the English booth. If I can get a test so I can confirm that I can follow the examination, I would appreciate it. THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three; one, two, three; Mr. Harmon, (20)are you getting the English? MR. HARMON: That's fine. JUDGE RODRIGUES: We have had problems. We change languages here. I hope the French booth -- after this experiment, can we continue? Mr. Petrusic. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] No.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There seems to be a problem with one of the microphones. THE INTERPRETER: Yes. We will switch to the other microphone, (5)Your Honour, for the time being. So we'll just use this microphone. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The French booth has suggested that we keep working without interruption. Just use the same microphone, please. Mr. Petrusic. (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: So this is the order dated the 13th of July, 1995. The number is 01/4-157-5, issued and signed by Major General Radislav Krstic, and the heading is "Commander." Could you please comment on this order, General, first in light of (15)the tasks that follow from this order.
• A.: On the basis of the intelligence that we had at our disposal that
had reached us until the 13th of July, 1995, which dealt with the
possibility that a part of the forces of the 28th Division might try to
break through from the direction of Srebrenica towards Zepa, and for the
(20)purpose of protecting the process of assembling and bringing in the units
of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, the 1st Milici Light Infantry
Brigade, and the Independent Skelani Battalion in the area from which they
were to set off to execute their mission in Zepa, and that is the wider
area of Podravan, I issued an order in my capacity as the Commander of the
(25)forces engaged against Zepa to search the terrain in the areas of assembly
• Q.: This order was signed by you in the capacity of the Commander. Does that refer to the Corps Commander? • A.: No. No. It has nothing to do with the duty of the Corps (10)Commander. But as the Commander of the forces that were engaged on the execution of the task against Zepa, because according to the order issued by General Mladic, I was assigned the Commander of these forces, and in the execution of the task, I was subordinate to the Main Staff. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Can we please have the Prosecution (15)Exhibit 483 placed on the ELMO. • Q.: Were you then the Commander of the forces in accordance with the order number 02/04-185/1 [sic], and the forces are the 1st Zvornik, the 1st Bratunac, the 1st Birac, the 2nd Romanija, the 1st Prodrinje, the 5th Podrinje, the 1st Milici, the 1st Vlasenica, and the 5th Mixed (20)Artillery Regiment.
• A.: Yes, precisely. But when you mention the units such as the
1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the 1st Birac Infantry Brigade, the
2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, then only the elements of these units
taking part in the operation against Zepa are meant. And this order
(25)indicates, taken as a whole, that the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade
• Q.: The 65th Protective Regiment was not mentioned in the order. Had it been resubordinated to you? (5) • A.: This battalion, which was part of the 65th Protective Motorised Regiment that was engaged against Zepa -- I have already spoken about that in my testimony so far -- it was deployed on the positions, defensive positions, ever since the beginning of the outbreak of the conflict in that area, facing Zepa. Although this battalion is not listed in this (10)order, the order had not been issued to it, it did take part in the operation against Zepa, which was only logical, because it was deployed in the area. So it was also a part of these forces. • Q.: Who was in command of that battalion? • A.: That battalion was commanded by the battalion commander, and more (15)specifically, in this situation it was commanded by the Chief of Staff of the 65th Protective Motorised Regiment. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For the record, the Defence will repeat the number that the document P483 bears. It was the order with the number of 02/04-158-1, dated the 13th of July, 1995. (20) • Q.: General, do you know the name and the duty held by Colonel Milanovic? • A.: Yes. Colonel Milanovic was from the staff of the Drina Corps. He was on the staff of the Drina Corps. He was the Chief of the air defence in the Drina Corps. (25)
• Q.: Was he involved in this time period that we're discussing now,
• A.: Colonel Milanovic was a very experienced commanding officer when it came to exerting command over units even outside of his branch of the military because before the operations against Srebrenica and Zepa began, (5)he was a Commander of one of the brigades in the Drina Corps, and then after he arrived at the Drina Corps Command, he very frequently dealt with the combat readiness of the units of the Drina Corps. Colonel Milanovic was also involved in the crushing of the offensive launched by the BH army that I have discussed earlier, from the (10)direction of Tuzla towards Zvornik and Srebrenica in the area of responsibility of the 1st Birac Brigade. I primarily refer to the area of Osmaci and the feature Vis. Colonel Milanovic, in the Srebrenica operation, was engaged in monitoring the operation of the forces of the 2nd Battalion from the (15)direction of Podravan towards Alibegovac and Kak throughout the operation until the 11th of July, 1995. As regards Zepa, Colonel Milanovic was also involved in monitoring the preparations and the assembling of the units of the 1st Milici Brigade, the 1st Bratunac brigade, and the Independent Skelani Battalion (20)and their deployment in the wider area of Podravanje and Zeleni Jadar for the purpose of launching an action from in the are of Podravanje, Brestovik, Orlov Kamen, Zlovrh, Zepa.
• Q.: Did you have any information from Colonel Milanovic? Did you have
any contacts with him either through radio communications or any other
(25)type of communication?
(10) • Q.: On the 14th of July, in the morning hours of that day, this order to launch an attack against the Zepa enclave is reaching the stage of execution. • A.: Yes. On the 14th of July, as it is indicated in the order, the operation involving the units engaged towards Zepa began. (15) • Q.: On that day did you meet with or contact anyone from the Command, from the Corps Command, or the Main Staff of the VRS?
• A.: I didn't have any physical contact with any of the representatives
of the Commands that you have indicated. I'm referring to the Drina Corps
Command and the Main Staff Command.
(20)On that day I got a telephone call from the Drina Corps Commander,
General Zivanovic, and in very few words he said that the situation in the
area of responsibility of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade was very
complex and uncertain. He also ordered that the Commander of the Zvornik
Brigade, Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, immediately, together with
(25)one part of his brigade which was engaged towards Zepa, should return to
(5) • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic together with a portion -- with elements of his forces, did he return on that day to his area of responsibility? • A.: Immediately after I had received this order of General Zivanovic, I called the Commander of the 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade, (10)Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, I transmitted the order to him, and in the course of that night, the night between the 14th and the 15th of July, he executed the task he had received; that is, he pulled out his unit and organised a march towards his area of responsibility along the Plane-Han Pijesak-Vlasenica-Milici-Konjevic Polje-Zvornik route. (15) • Q.: At the time of those events, when the Zvornik Brigade was being pulled out, did you have any knowledge, any information from the other side, as regards the situation in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade?
• A.: On that same day, I don't remember if it was before General
(20)Zivanovic called me or after, at the Krivaca forward command post we
received a call from the Chief of Staff of the Zvornik Brigade who
submitted the same request as the one contained in the order of the
Command of the Drina Corps. I don't know whether it was Colonel Vicic or
Colonel Jevdjevic. I talked to one of them; I don't know who it was. But
(25)there was a call that came at that time.
• A.: On the 15th of July, as regards the activities undertaken towards (5)Zepa, I should say that they were being conducted according to the plan. However, the combat operations were very slow due to the terrain features along the axes that were used to launch the attack towards Zepa. I remember that in the morning of the 15th of July, at the Krivaca forward command post, General Mladic arrived together with General (10)Tolimir. Upon his arrival I made a report to him and briefed him about the situation along the axes where combat activities were taking place towards Zepa. • Q.: Did those two officers make any comments, the officers who had just arrived? (15) • A.: General Mladic said, after I had briefed him about the situation, that the combat activities were indeed very slow and that they should be continued, that the operation should continue. • Q.: In the course of that day, did you receive any reports at the forward command post? (20)
• A.: On that day no report reached the Krivaca forward command post
either from the Drina Corps Command or the Main Staff. However, a report
arrived as early as on the 13th of July; I received it myself at the
Krivaca forward command post. The report was signed by General Tolimir,
and it said that the Main Staff was engaged in negotiations with the
(25)representatives of the Bosniak authorities of Zepa, and also with their
• Q.: That report was sent to the forward command post. • A.: Yes. We received it at the Krivaca forward command post. • Q.: Was that report commented upon during their visit? (5) • A.: It didn't get any particular comments. They just said that the negotiations would continue depending, of course, on the situation that was evolving at the time. • Q.: The date is still the 15th of July, and as regards the visit -- we're still talking about the visit of these two officers, the Commander (10)of the Main Staff and his assistant. Was anything else said to you? Did you receive any other piece of information? Was there any other talk on that occasion? • A.: Nothing except for what General Mladic told me. He said that he was to take over the duty of the Corps Commander soon [as interpreted] (15) • Q.: Did you -- were you aware of the decree of the President of the Republic regarding your appointment to that duty? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic, there seems to be a problem with the transcript. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I think that the (20)interpretation is incorrect. Perhaps the best way to deal with it would be to repeat the question. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What is the error you're talking about, Mr. Visnjic? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Question, page 14, line 6. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, I don't think that the
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: On that occasion, did General Mladic tell you that a decree of the President of the Republic, the then President Radovan Karadzic, had arrived whereby you were appointed to the post of the Corps Commander? (10) • A.: As far as I understand the question of -- Mr. President, I should answer the first question first and then this one. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, wouldn't this be a convenient time for the break? We have an error here in the transcript. Perhaps we should have a break now and then continue after the break. (15)A 15-minute break. --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.35 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic, you may continue. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. So let us eliminate any discrepancies from the record. • Q.: Did General Mladic, when you met on that occasion, tell you that you have to accept the duties of Corps Commander?
• A.: Yes. He told me that I would shortly need to take over as Corps
(25)Commander.
• A.: No, he didn't tell me that. (5) • Q.: Did you learn about your appointment based on the decree of the President of the Republic? • A.: Two or three days later, I think, I learnt about that decree from the media. • Q.: So all this was happening on the 15th of July. Tell us, please, (10)how long did General Mladic and General Tolimir stay at the forward command post at Krivaca? • A.: They did not stay long at the Krivaca forward command post. • Q.: Do you remember roughly what time of day it was when they left the place where you were? (15) • A.: I think it was in the morning, before noon, when they left the forward command post. • Q.: Do you know where General Mladic went? • A.: I think that he went in the direction of the UNPROFOR checkpoint at Boksanica, which is about 10 kilometres away. This UNPROFOR checkpoint (20)at the Boksanica Mountain is between Rogatica and Zepa. • Q.: Are you aware of what was happening at the UNPROFOR post?
• A.: On the basis of my telephone or, rather, radio contacts with the
Commander of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, which also
participated in this operation, I was told that negotiations were being
(25)conducted there between General Mladic and -- General Mladic on one side
• Q.: On the 15th of July, did you talk to any of the officers from the Main Staff of the VRS and the Drina Corps or to any officers, commanding officers engaged in the Zepa operation? • A.: I only talked to the commanders of the units that were engaged in (10)the Zepa operation, and I did so exclusively via radio transmitters, RUP 12, which has encryption. I did not speak to anyone else on that day. • Q.: Though we'll be coming back to that during these proceedings, but tell us briefly, from the forward command post, was there an established (15)connection with the brigade commands, the commands of these brigades, that is, their original headquarters? • A.: By the establishment of the forward command post at Krivaca and the communications centre there, this was carried out technically and there were communications with the Main Staff and the Drina Corps and from (20)there on to the commands of the subordinate units. • Q.: Did you have any need, during these days, to communicate with the commands of those units, that is, to communicate with Zvornik, Bratunac, Sokolac, Rogatica, and all the other locations where those brigades were headquartered? (25)
• A.: No. I had no need at all to talk to anyone from the commands of
• Q.: Briefly, on the 16th of July, at the forward command post where (5)you were located and around the command post on the front where the combat was ongoing, was anything of a major significance taking place which would deserve to be highlighted? • A.: Nothing in particular, except that the combat operations were taking place according to plan and depending on the actual situation on (10)the ground. I think it was that day or the next day that we moved the forward command post from Krivaca to the village of Godjenje, which was to the south of Krivaca at a distance of about 6 to 7 kilometres. • Q.: So was it the 17th or the 16th of July? Can you tell us on what day exactly this forward command post was moved? (15) • A.: I cannot tell you exactly. I think it was the 16th or the 17th of July. • Q.: You mentioned negotiations being conducted with representatives of UNPROFOR and the population of Zepa. Were combat activities continued? Were there any ceasefires? Were there any interruptions in the fighting? (20) • A.: While these negotiations and agreements were being conducted at the Boksanica post, combat operations were suspended while the meeting was going on. It all depended on what was being discussed and what the aim of the talks was or, rather, what the result of the negotiations were.
• Q.: So during those few days, there were no major developments on the
(25)front line. Could we put it that way?
(5) • Q.: Did you go to that Boksanica post? • A.: Yes, I was there once or, rather, close to that location, in fact, at the location itself, because I have already said that the forward command post of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade was situated there. (10) • Q.: Did you have any contact with General Mladic during those days? • A.: Throughout the duration of the operation when he was there, I did have contact with him either when he came to the forward command post or if one of the Brigade Commanders would inform me that he was in the region of deployment of that brigade. (15) • Q.: Did you have any meetings with him in addition to the information you received from the commanders? • A.: No. There were no meetings at the forward command post at that time either in Krivaca or in Godjenje or at the Boksanica location. We didn't have any particular meetings. (20) • Q.: General, as far as you can recollect, can you now go back to the time of the 20th of July or thereabouts in 1995? • A.: Yes, I remember that far back. • Q.: Can you tell us what was happening in those days?
• A.: On that day too, as regards the combat operations under way, they
(25)were being carried out in accordance with the situation, but on the 20th
• Q.: Did you go to that meeting?
• A.: Yes, I went there in my car to that meeting. When I arrived at
Han Kram, I encountered many guests there. By that I mean the
(10)representatives of the military, of the Main Staff; representatives of
other operational formations from the VRS; some representatives of the
authorities and also of businesses from the area of responsibility; also a
TV team from the Main Staff; and there was also General Zivanovic there,
naturally.
(15)From the operational formations such as the Drina Corps, I saw
General Talic, the Commander of the 1st Corps of the VRS; then there was
the Commander of the Centre of the Military Schools in Banja Luka, General
Boric; then the Chief of Staff of the Air Force and Air Defence, also from
Banja Luka, at the time he was still a colonel, Torbica; I think that the
(20)Chief of Staff of the East Bosnia Corps, General Gavric, was also there;
from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, there were no representatives; and no
one was there from the Herzegovina Corps.
From the Main Staff of the army of the Republika Srpska, there was
General Gvero, the Assistant to the Commander -- to the Chief of Staff for
(25)Morale, Legal, and Religious Affairs; then General Skrbic, Assistant to
(10) • Q.: Was General Mladic there?
• A.: After awhile, when I had arrived and greeted all the officers and
everybody else present, General Mladic arrived in a helicopter. He was
escorted by General Tolimir. He entered the restaurant and the meeting
began.
(15)As far as I remember, the meeting went on as follows: General
Mladic read out the decree of the President of the Republika Srpska about
my appointment to the post, and he said that this was the moment, the
right time to carry out the takeover of duty between myself and General
Zivanovic. He said that he had the -- that it was a great honour to
(20)assume the duty of the Commander of the Drina Corps, which had until that
time been under the command of General Zivanovic. He expressed his wish
that I should be successful in my career as the Commander of the Drina
Corps.
Then he turned to General Zivanovic and to everybody else present
(25)and told them that General Zivanovic, from the time he assumed the duty of
• Q.: Did you and General Zivanovic talk at that occasion? • A.: No, we did not have any particular conversation apart from the (20)procedural matters regarding the takeover of duty. • Q.: Did you talk, perhaps, about a need to draft a record of the takeover?
• A.: No, we did not talk about that, nor was this the right time or the
right place to do so, because the Zepa operation was under way, the
(25)meeting did not take long, and General Mladic made a point about that.
• Q.: So after that meeting did you go back to the forward command post? • A.: Yes, I went back to the forward command post at Godjenje in order to continue my command over the forces advancing towards Zepa. (5) • Q.: Do you know where General Zivanovic went? • A.: I really don't know where he went apart from what I have already said; that in accordance with the decree issued by the President of the Republika Srpska, he was placed under the disposal of the VRS. I think that General Zivanovic said something about a duty to (10)which he should be appointed at the Main Staff. I think it was the post of the Assistant to the Commander for Logistics. • Q.: So you are now the Corps Commander. After the takeover had taken place and you went to the forward command post in the new area, the area of Godjenje, who was at the basic command post in Vlasenica then? (15)
• A.: After that the situation changed somewhat and so did my
obligations, both as regards Zepa and as regards the Corps as a whole.
The command post in Vlasenica had to function and so did the forward
command post for Zepa, just as it was planned and envisaged. The most
senior person at the command post in Vlasenica, when it came to the
(20)Assistants to the Commander, was Colonel Cerovic.
On that day, after returning to the forward command post at
Godjenje, I ordered Colonel Cerovic to be summoned to the forward command
post at Godjenje and he did accordingly. He gave me a very brief report
about the situation from the moment when I left the command post in
(25)Vlasenica on the 12th, in the afternoon of the 12th, and he stressed that
• Q.: How long did you actually stay in Zepa and when did that military operation come to an end? • A.: The Zepa operation took unusually long, unlike previous engagements of the Drina Corps forces, such as the engagement in the (20)Krivaja 95 operation. That length on the time that was spent was caused by numerous interruptions in the conduct of the operation due to the negotiations. Also because of the terrain features where the combat was taking place, so that finally the operation came to an end on the 2nd of August, 1995, whereupon I went back to the command post in Vlasenica. (25)
• Q.: At the command post in Vlasenica, did you find Colonel Cerovic
• A.: After I'd returned to the Vlasenica command post, I assembled all of the assistants to the commander except for Colonel Popovic, who was (5)absent at the time from the command post. I was briefed by them about the situation, about the problems, duties, and responsibilities that they had, and about the execution of their assignments. According to what Colonel Cerovic had previously told me about, the situation was described to me as normal, with a certain increased (10)dynamics concerning the conduct of preparations and the sending of troops to the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the 2nd Krajina Corps. • Q.: Did they tell you that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was absent in view of the fact that he was the Assistant Commander for Security? (15) • A.: Yes. They told me that he was on sick leave. • Q.: Let us go back very briefly to the decree of the Minister of the army of Republika Srpska. According to that decree, Colonel Andric was appointed to the post of Chief of Staff. When you reach Vlasenica on the 2nd of August or thereabouts, when you went back to the command post in (20)Vlasenica, did you have a chief of staff at that point? I mean, was Colonel Andric the Chief of Staff?
• A.: Yes. Pursuant to the order and the decree of the Minister of VRS,
I did have a chief of staff. However, after both of us had returned to
the command post, we started the procedure of the takeover of duty. We
(25)toured all of the units that were deployed in the wider area of the
• Q.: Was there any record made about that takeover of duty? • A.: Yes. I believe that a record was made about the takeover of duty, (5)and officially, as of that day, he was the Chief of Staff of the Corps. And pursuant to the record on takeover of duty, he was able to exert, to make use of all his privileges and rights pertaining to him as the Chief of Staff of the Corps. • Q.: You mentioned that you left -- (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: It's unclear from the answer of General Krstic what day General Andric took over control of the Chief of Staff. The answer is "as of that day," and we've had a long discussion about Colonel Andric and General Krstic returning to Vlasenica headquarters and then conducting (15)a tour of various brigades. So I'm not sure how long that took. But in answer, I would request that there be a precision as to that aspect of his testimony. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Mr. Petrusic -- I'm sorry. Mr. Visnjic. (20) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I made a note in relation to the first response of General Krstic. I think that the translation was not precise, but I think, and Mr. Harmon is quite right, that we should clear up the issue. • A.: I simply cannot recall what day it was. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.]
• A.: Yes. Immediately after the takeover of duty between myself and (5)Colonel Andric, I went to Kosovska Mitrovica to see my family that was living there at the time, that is, throughout my tour of duty in Bosnia. I stayed there for about ten days, I think, and after that, I went back to my post. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, I should like to (10)go back to your previous question. General Krstic has just said, "After the takeover of duty between myself and Colonel Andric." I should like to know whether Colonel Andric took over the duty on the same day as General Krstic, that is, as when he, General Krstic, took over his duty. If there is a difference in time to that effect, we should perhaps ask the (15)General if he can be more specific in terms of dates and time framework of the takeover of duty of himself and Colonel Andric. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: General, did you take over your duty as the Corps Commander on the 20th or on the 21st of July, 1995? (20) • A.: Yes. I took over the duty of the Corps Commander on the day when the takeover of duty between myself and General Zivanovic took place, either on the 20th or the 21st of July.
• Q.: In relation to that particular date, could you now tell us when
the takeover of duty between yourself and Colonel Andric took place,
(25)Colonel Andric being the new Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps?
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, we should like to (10)suggest a break at this point. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic. We will have a 15-minute break. --- Recess taken at 11.20 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, you may continue. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: So after the handover of duty that we spoke about before the break between you and Andric, what activities did you engage in at the Corps Command? Generally, what did you do? (20)
• A.: After touring the units that I listed already, and after the
takeover of duty between him and myself, I went to Kosovska Mitrovica to
visit my family. I returned from Kosovska Mitrovica towards the very end
of the month of August, after which I went to the area of responsibility
of the 2nd Krajina Corps of the VRS to tour the units of the Drina Corps
(25)which were already there.
(5) • Q.: Can you remember how long you stayed in the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps? • A.: I think I stayed for about ten days, when I went back to the command post at Vlasenica. • Q.: Returning to the headquarters in Vlasenica or the command post in (10)Vlasenica, did you learn anything about prisoners of war, if any? • A.: Returning to the Vlasenica command post, I learnt that there had been prisoners of war and that those prisoners had been sent to Batkovici, near Bijeljina. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence would (15)request at this stage a session closed to the public, and we would like to explain our reasons for that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, perhaps you can give us an indication of those reasons in general terms so that we can decide. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Generally speaking, the reasons are of a security nature. We're now entering a phase in the testimony which, in the opinion of the Defence and also in the opinion of General Krstic, could cause serious problems, and for these reasons we would like to have the hearing closed to the public. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] For how long, more or less?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, any objections or comments? MR. HARMON: I have a comment, Mr. President and Your Honours. (5)It's unclear from the general nature of what I've been told to give a clear response. Perhaps we could go into closed session and more precise comments could be made, and then I would be in a better position to respond to the request for a closed session.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Let me confer with my
(10)colleagues, please.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Bearing in mind that the
principle of hearings should be that they should be public, the Chamber
rules that we go into private session to discuss the reasons, and after
(15)hearing the reasons, we will go back into public session to render our
ruling. So let us go into private session now for this discussion.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are already in public session. Let me just announce that we will now have a one-hour break at (5)this point. The Chamber will be, therefore, able to render its ruling and, if possible, have lunch as well. After that, starting at quarter past one, we will have two blocks of work with a short break in between. One-hour break.
--- Luncheon recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] After the discussion that we had
in private session, the Chamber is rendering its decision.
The Chamber believes that the explanations provided to it can
(5)justify up to a certain point the holding of hearings in part in private
session. The Chamber recalls, however, that the principle is for hearings
to be public, and only exceptionally they are held in private or closed
session.
The Trial Chamber also notes that it is important for
(10)the equilibrium of the proceedings that the Prosecutor may use the
elements produced during the hearing.
The Chamber, in view of the fact that there is an exceptional
situation, would require of the Defence to divide the follow-up of its
examination-in-chief into two blocks; the first would deal with all the
(15)matters which could be addressed in a public hearing; the second block,
which should be as restricted as possible, would allow the Defence to
address in closed session the issues which the Defence considers cannot be
addressed in a public session for security reasons.
That is the ruling of the Trial Chamber, which means,
(20)Mr. Petrusic, that you should perhaps reorganise slightly your
examination-in-chief; in other words, that we should continue in public
session during which you will be able to ask all necessary questions
except those which you feel affect security. When you come to those
issues, those questions, you will try to group them together so that we
(25)should go into private session only once, if possible.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. With the help of the usher, I should like to show the witness document D99. (5) THE REGISTRAR: The registrar needs a second to find the document. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, it is a brief document and the Defence can supply a copy. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. You may continue if (10)we have the document on the ELMO. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: This is an interim combat report issued by the Command of the 5th Engineer Battalion, number 107-1, dated the 13th of July, 1995, signed by the Deputy Commander, Major Milan Simanic. (15)General, could you comment on this document or interim combat report? The number of the document is 107-1, but the exhibit that has been entered in the record is D99.
• A.: In the course of my testimony, I have already said where the unit
of the Drina Corps, that is, the 5th Engineer Battalion, was located, and
(20)I said that it was located in Konjevic Polje. I also spoke about the
tasks and duties of that unit which it engaged in prior to Operation
Krivaja 95 and during that operation, as well as the tasks it carried out
in the Zepa operation.
I said that the bulk of the forces of this battalion, before the
(25)beginning of the operation and during Operation Krivaja 95, were deployed
• Q.: Do you know how many soldiers there could have been in Nova Kasaba in the 5th Engineer Battalion at the time? • A.: Let me correct. Not in Nova Kasaba but in Konjevic Polje. On the (5)basis of the information available to me, there were no more than 15 soldiers. There couldn't have been any more than 15 soldiers in Konjevic Polje at the time. • Q.: So their duty was to secure the facilities? • A.: Yes. Their exclusive duty was to secure the facilities of the (10)5th Engineer Battalion. Of course, at the time of the event, at the time of the break through by the 28th Division, the forces had to be reinforced. So it wasn't regular security but reinforced security as we see that there were two guards at the guard post. • Q.: Do you have any knowledge of what happened to the civilian Muslim (15)population that came to the United Nations camp in Potocari on the 11th of July? • A.: At the meeting that was held on the 12th of July in the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac, it was decided that the civilians should be transported or evacuated from Potocari towards Kladanj. (20) • Q.: On the 11th of July, was there any discussion at the meeting with the Muslim representatives and the representatives of the Dutch Battalion about the evacuation? • A.: On the evening of the 11th of July, it was already certain that civilians would be evacuated towards Kladanj or Tuzla. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Could I please ask the usher to
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. 22/226. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] 12th July, 1995, issued by Milenko (5)Zivanovic, the Commander. • Q.: Could you please comment on this order? • A.: Yes. This is an order of the 12th of July, 1995, dealing with the provision of buses for evacuation from the Srebrenica enclave. It was submitted to the subordinate units in the Drina Corps. That's the (10)1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the 1st Birac Infantry Brigade, the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, the 1st and 5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigades, and the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry to (15)interrupt you. Perhaps we could speed up the things but, of course, in such a way that you should not be prejudiced in any way. I don't think it is necessary to state this in detail. The document has already been identified and marked for evidence. It is perhaps not necessary to repeat all of the addressees of this document. We have it in front of us. It (20)has already been admitted into evidence. You should perhaps focus on your specific questions concerning this document and in that way we will proceed faster. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President.
• Q.: General, does this order have to do with the provision of buses
(25)for transportation and the transportation of persons from Potocari?
• Q.: Did you take part in the provision of this order? (5) • A.: No. I did not have any activities relating to this order. The person responsible for its implementation was the assistant to the Commander of the Drina Corps for Logistics. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. Usher, could you please place Exhibit 462 on the ELMO, and 532. (10) • Q.: So document 462 is an order for the search of the terrain. Are you familiar with this order? • A.: Yes. I knew about this order, and it also reached the forward command post at Krivaca on the 13th of July, 1995. This order was issued by the Commander of the Drina Corps pursuant to the order issued by the (15)Main Staff, and it relates to the capture and disarming of Muslims, as it is stated here, their accommodation in appropriate facilities that can be secured with a smaller number of troops, and the Superior Command is to be advised thereof immediately. This order shows that the Main Staff controls and governs the (20)whole -- manages the whole operation. I was only informed about it. I did not have any obligations stemming from this order. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Order number 532 or, rather, Exhibit 532. Do you know anything about this order? (25)
• A.: I can't see the date on this order very well.
• A.: Yes, I am aware of this order -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon. Did we manage to establish the date of this document through the intercepts of the (5)conversations that you had? MR. HARMON: I can't answer that question, Mr. President. But I can't see a date on the B/C/S version of this, and if General Krstic is able to point to a date that this is the 13th of July, I would be grateful. There is a stamp, apparently, at the bottom of this, a receipt (10)stamp, dated the 14th of July. So the answer of General Krstic to my colleague's question was that this is a document of the 13th of July, and I don't come to that conclusion based on anything on the face of the document. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, please continue. (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, I was in fact speeding things up. Now I would like to have Exhibit 81 placed on the ELMO. That's the Defence Exhibit. My mistake.
• Q.: So the Defence Exhibit 81, the heading is the Main Staff of the
army of the Republika Srpska, and the number is 03/4-1620. The date is
(20)the 13th of July, 1995; also at the top of the document there is a
handwritten date, the 13th of July 1995, again.
"Operations, urgently prepared our order." This is what is
written in the heading of the document, handwritten. The document is
designed by Milan Gvero and there is a stamp.
(25)So these two orders, are they identical in their contents?
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. (5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Handwritten in the heading of the document, it is said that the document is -- the order was forwarded. Does that mean that the order had, indeed, been forwarded to subordinate units, as is stated in the heading, on the 13th of July? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you receive this order on the 13th of July at the forward command post? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Do you know the contents -- what it says in the contents of this (15)order as regards the prisoners of war? • A.: Yes, I am aware of the contents as far as they relate to the prisoners of war in this order. This was the first information that reached me that there were -- that people were being captured, and this order specified the manner in which they are to be captured and the (20)premises where they were to be located. This order shows that the Main Staff is in control of the whole situation. • Q.: To whom are reports to be submitted? And who is, in layman's terms, responsible for the implementation of this order?
• A.: The Corps Commander is responsible for the implementation of this
(25)order, and on the basis of the information and the reports received from
• Q.: Does that mean that the treatment of the captives is in the sphere (5)of -- in the jurisdiction of the Main Staff? • A.: Yes. From this order and the order of the Corps Commander, it is quite obvious that it is in the jurisdiction of the Main Staff. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I would now like the usher to place Exhibit 649, that's Prosecution Exhibit 649, and D109, Defence Exhibit (10)109. • Q.: General, the order contained in Prosecution Exhibit 649, do you bring that order in relation to what had actually happened in the area on the 17th of July, 1995?
• A.: Yes, precisely. I can establish a link between this order and
(15)what I had testified to yesterday, when the continuation of the Krivaja 95
operation was ordered after the units had implemented the decision of the
Drina Corps Commander, and when General Mladic ordered the operation to
continue, and took over command of these units.
This order, I can also connect it with what the Chief of the Main
(20)Staff said at the Command of the Bratunac Brigade, at the meeting, and
that is that hereinafter, he was in command of all the formations in that
area. This is precisely what this order shows; when he forms the command
group and Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic is at the head of this command
group, and all the units in that area are placed under his command, as is
(25)stated in this order.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic, was he a Drina Corps officer? • A.: Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic and the whole group, in fact, these (5)were all officers from the Main Staff of the VRS. • Q.: You said that you can establish a link between this order and the document dated the 11th of July, if I'm not mistaken. • A.: Yes. This order is related to the order dated 11th of July that I commented upon yesterday. That's the order that clearly assigns tasks to (10)all the units that are listed in the order in which the Chief of the Main Staff, among other things, specifies that the 65th Protective Motorised Regiment is to carry out these tasks in addition to the tasks it had received earlier. • Q.: Where are the other units? (15) • A.: The other units are engaged on the front facing Tuzla, Kladanj, and Zivinice, facing Zepa and Gorazde. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: General Krstic linked Defence Exhibit 109 to an order of the 11th of July. He referenced it being introduced yesterday. I (20)would request that we have an exhibit number so it makes it easier for us to identify the document that is critically linked to Defence Exhibit 109.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Mr. Petrusic, if it is
possible, would you please mention the exhibit number. That is the most
(25)convenient way to identify the document. Otherwise, we might get lost.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I don't know whether Exhibit D109 is still on the ELMO. (5) • Q.: General, these two exhibits, 109 and OTP number 649, as regards their contents, are they identical and were they issued by the same command and by the same individual? • A.: These documents are identical. They were issued by the same command and by the same individual. (10)With your permission, I would like to add something. In this order, among other things, tasks are being given out to the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade and the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade, which is absurd, because these two units were engaged on the front towards Zepa as part of the Zepa operation. (15) • Q.: Who did these units receive -- • A.: From this document, one can clearly see that they received their assignments from the Commander of the Main Staff. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, sorry to interrupt you. I'm not sure you have described Exhibit 109. I think that we have (20)already mentioned it, but I don't think that you have actually described that particular exhibit.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Document 109 was issued by the
general staff of the VRS, number 3/4-1670, dated 17th of July, 1995. The
document was issued by General Ratko Mladic.
(25)My question in relation to this document was whether this
• Q.: You said that General Zivanovic had taken over the Drina Corps at the time it was established. At the beginning of the Srebrenica (5)operation, was he, de jure and de facto, the Commander of the Drina Corps? • A.: Yes. General Zivanovic, his duty was that of the Corps Commander. • Q.: Did he hand over that duty on the 11th of July, 1995? • A.: No. • Q.: Did he hand over the duty on the 15th of July when the decree of (10)the then President of Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic, arrived -- • A.: No. • Q.: Let me please finish my question. -- which decree was drafted on the 14th of July and was supposed to enter into force on the 15th of July. (15) • A.: No. • Q.: Do you have any knowledge as to the fact that General Zivanovic, from the 11th of July until the 20th and 21st of July, was issuing orders on behalf of the Drina Corps and was actually at the Vlasenica command post or in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps? (20) • A.: Yes. General Zivanovic, throughout that time, was at his command post or in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps carrying out his duty and issuing orders that we have already commented. • Q.: The reports of the subordinate units at that time, were they addressed to the Vlasenica command post? (25)
• A.: Yes. All of the reports submitted by the subordinate units were
• Q.: Did he know about the events that were taking place in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th of July, 1995? • A.: Yes. General Zivanovic issued the order about the use of the (5)buses for the evacuation of the civilian population from Potocari. On the 12th of July, after the meeting at the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac had ended, General Zivanovic came to Bratunac. On the 12th of July, his Assistant Commander for Security was also in Bratunac. I'm referring to Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. And at the same time, his Assistant Commander (10)for Logistics was also there in Bratunac. • Q.: Did General Zivanovic know about what was happening in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade? • A.: Yes. On the basis of the reports that he had been receiving from that brigade, General Zivanovic knew or should have known what was going (15)on. • Q.: Did he know about the fate of the prisoners of war in the area of the Zvornik Brigade? • A.: I'm not sure about that. On the basis of the reports that I studied later on, one cannot conclude that he knew about that because very (20)little, almost nothing, could be seen from those reports as regards the issue of the prisoners of war. • Q.: After the takeover of duty between yourself and General Zivanovic, or, rather, between General Zivanovic and yourself, how long did you remain on that duty as the Corps Commander after that? (25)
• A.: After the takeover of duty, that is, after I had taken up the duty
• Q.: After the month of November 1995, did you leave the Corps? • A.: Yes. After that date, that is, after the month of November, I was (5)relieved of my duty as the Drina Corps Commander and sent to the National Defence School in Belgrade. • Q.: Your deputy, according to establishment, remained there, the Chief of Staff of the Corps? • A.: Yes, Chief of Staff -- my Chief of Staff stayed behind, who was (10)also the deputy of the Corps Commander. • Q.: When did you go back to the Corps? • A.: I didn't go back to the Drina Corps because until that time -- I believe it was until the end of April, late April -- the Corps had already been disbanded as an operational formation. So I returned to the Main (15)Staff of the VRS for further appointment. • Q.: I didn't hear you, General. When exactly did you go back to the VRS? • A.: I went back in September in 1996. • Q.: In an interview which was introduced into evidence in the course (20)of these proceedings, the then President, Mr. Karadzic, said that you yourself -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, give us the number of the exhibit, please. Do you have it? It is always good to identify the document. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] At this point, Mr. President, I
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think they already have an answer. (5)Yes, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: It may be Prosecutor's Exhibit 99. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam Registrar, do you have the number? THE REGISTRAR: I was going to add that it was 99, Exhibit 99. (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: In that exhibit, President Karadzic said in an interview that you had planned the Srebrenica operation and that he had personally approved that operation and signed it, and he emphasises your contribution to that operation and he cites you for your achievements. (15)Did you plan the operation, and did he personally sign the appropriate document for the execution of the operation? • A.: I place that statement of his in the context of his relationship with General Mladic. President Karadzic was not present when the operation was planned, nor did he plan the operation in question. It is (20)not possible in any army in the world for the Chief of Staff to plan an operation on his own. It is the Commander who issues the decision, and on the basis of that decision, on the basis of his decision, appropriate documents are then made.
• Q.: After you had returned to the VRS, did you at some later point in
(25)time take over command of the 5th Corps of the VRS?
• Q.: When you were arrested, your duty was that of the Commander of the 5th Corps, you were on that post. • A.: Yes. Before I took up that particular duty, I was the Chief Inspector for Combat Readiness within the army. I was appointed the (15)Commander of the 5th Corps in April 1998, and while I was on that duty, I was arrested. • Q.: While carrying out your duties at that post you were in constant contact with representatives of the international forces deployed in the area of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, or, during that period of time, in (20)1998, in the territory of the Republika Srpska.
• A.: Yes. After I had taken over as Commander of the 5th Corps of the
VRS, I contributed as best as I could to the implementation of the peace
accords in those parts relating to the army. And to that effect I had
contact with all levels of command of the United Nations' forces in the
(25)territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the focus being on the contacts with the
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence should like to suggest a break at this point. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I hope that ten minutes will be enough. (10) --- Recess taken at 2.17 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.28 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So, Mr. Petrusic, let us try and finish roughly at ten to three so that we can have a small Status Conference then. You have the floor. (15) THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Petrusic. Microphone, please. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: General, in your contacts with representatives of the United Nations' forces, you were constantly on the move, travelling through the (20)territory of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
• A.: I travelled most frequently escorted by SFOR vehicles, but there
were cases when I was travelling alone, on the way there or coming back,
when visiting a location in the Federation.
Let me give you just one example. During the hand-over of duty of
(25)the Commander of Division North in Tuzla between General Ellis and General
• Q.: In these proceedings so far, we have heard reference made many times to the Zvornik and Bratunac Brigades and their Commanders, (10)Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic and Colonel Blagojevic. On the basis of your knowledge and everything you know about them, do you, as their superior officer at the time, hold them responsible, as their superior officer?
• A.: I was the superior officer to Colonel Blagojevic, even while I was
(15)the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps for a certain time, because he was
the Chief of Engineers in the Command of the Drina Corps.
From that position, Colonel Blagojevic became Commander of the
Bratunac Brigade because the Corps Commander decided to replace
Colonel Ognjenovic in that position. And I can say freely that
(20)Colonel Blagojevic is the personification of not only a Serb officer but
the personification of a good officer in any army. He is an epitome of an
officer. He is a good example of the way in which an officer needs to do
his duty as a professional soldier, and I am confident that
Colonel Blagojevic would never have allowed, in the first place because of
(25)his own image and also because of that of his subordinates, for anything
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] For ten minutes.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I see we are in public session
already, so let's go on to another matter now, and that is we will have a
brief Status Conference. There are two issues that I should like to
address as succinctly as possible. One is the problem of translation of
(20)Defence documents, and the second issue is the question of timetable.
Regarding the first, I think that we gave some instructions with
the request that we hear from the Prosecutor, from Mr. Harmon, what are
the priorities for translation so that they may prepare for the
cross-examination. On the other hand, I think we also have to take stock
(25)as to where we stand with relation to the question of translation in
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, I wish to notify the
(15)Trial Chamber that in the meantime, Ms. Tanja Radosavljevic and Ms. Keith
have listed the exhibits which are identical or very similar, that is,
Defence and Prosecution exhibits and that were already translated as
Prosecution exhibits, so that we have removed one set of problems
regarding translation.
(20)As for the second matter, whether all documents should be
retranslated or corrected, I must say on this occasion that the Defence
was extremely short of time as we only had a few days available for the
translation of documents and, unfortunately, the situation in Belgrade was
such that there was a general strike on and this didn't help us any. We
(25)managed to get together a group of translators but of different
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we, first of all, attempted to
prioritise the documents that we thought were the most important
(20)documents, and I identified those as the documents from the army of the
Republika Srpska. That's the set that we think should be accurately
translated. I understand that of that body of documents, nine are
documents that we have already translated or the CLSS has already
translated. Mr. Visnjic is correct. That removes that set of documents.
(25)However, the remaining set of documents need to be accurately translated,
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So the question before us is, and we find ourselves in a rather extraordinary situation: Either we suspend the hearings until we have all the documents in translation or we (10)try to encourage cooperation to guarantee equality and the possibility of us continuing the proceedings. I think that we are all aware that it is frequently necessary to do many things which are not, strictly speaking, our own duty. Let me tell you, I do many of those things myself simply to speed things up. (15)So it is in that light that perhaps we might suggest - we cannot order, of course - request, appeal, to someone to invest some additional effort so as to help us move forward. It is in that context that I should like to ask Madam Registrar whether she can tell us what measures have been taken to deal with the (20)problem, knowing that it is not, strictly speaking, your duty. THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, I have spoken with translation, and they said that they would try their best to make the corrections. However, I have not had the opportunity today to speak with them. So it would be after this session that I would know more information. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. Let's go on to the
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the first working day -- our next working day, within an hour or an hour and a half we will have completed our examination-in-chief, and as far as we have been (10)informed by Mr. Harmon, their cross-examination would ensue and last, I think he said, three days; so that would bring us to next Friday as the last day of their cross. We do have witnesses planned and they are about to come, and we will do everything to bring them over in the third week as originally planned. (15)But I have a question: If we come to the conclusion that on the 3rd of November, Friday, the 3rd of November, we might complete all witnesses, and of course we would inform you of the same in advance, in that case, could we have that day as a working day; or would that Friday, the 3rd of November, be a free day and we would have to resume on Monday (20)or Tuesday the following week?
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. The question,
Mr. Petrusic, to be more precise, is regarding the 3rd of November.
Independently of this discussion, that applies to me personally only. My
colleagues would be available. If the parties accept to have a hearing
(25)with my colleagues and in my absence, no problem; if not, we would not sit
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Of course we will miss you a great (10)deal, but we don't mind going on, continuing with the hearings. That is the position of the Defence, that we could continue. I don't know what the position of the Prosecution is, of course. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Mr. Harmon, please. He is going to say that he will not pressure me. (15) MR. HARMON: I have two answers. The first is we have no objection to sitting with two Judges on the 3rd of November. We have done that in the past in other cases, and we accept that in this case as well. In respect of how long the cross-examination will last, I don't want to put us in a box. We will conduct the cross-examination with all (20)due diligence and speed, but I'm not absolutely confident that it will end on Friday. It could well go over until Monday.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Can we conclude then that
regarding the question of translation, the parties, according to a
suggestion from Mr. Visnjic, will get together to make a balance of what
(25)remains to be done, and Mr. Fourmy can be of assistance if necessary, and
MR. FOURMY: [Int.] Yes. I will be here on Monday but (5)not on Tuesday, as you know. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: The issue of translations I don't want to leave
totally at the responsibility of the Office of the Prosecutor because we
have cross-examination to prepare, and sitting down and doing proper
(10)translations of documents is a burden that is, I don't think, completely
fair to the Office of the Prosecutor. It is my hope that the CLSS will
indeed provide us with complete translations before we are obligated to
commence our cross-examination. I need a report from them. How many of
the documents they will complete and which ones they will not complete so
(15)I can then take steps that I need to do to resolve the problem.
There are two sets of documents. There are sets of documents that
the Defence has, through their own good offices, attempted to have
translated properly that may contain inaccuracies and there is another set
of documents that have not been translated at all. And quite frankly, for
(20)the Office of the Prosecutor to have to sit down over the next few days
and worry about the translation of documents that have been tendered by
the Defence seems to me to be something that is unnecessary. It seems to
me that the Language Service Section, they do extraordinary work, I,
frankly, think that they're overworked and they don't have sufficient
(25)resources to provide all of the documents that are necessary, but we're in
(15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon. I quite
understand. I agree with you. I cannot interfere with these things
either.
Either we continue the discussion, but we have no more time, or,
and that was my idea, that the parties can get together with the legal
(20)officer of the Chamber to take stock of the situation and establish
priorities and then organise the possibility for the CLSS to respond. And
there's also another idea. The Chamber would never agree to the
Prosecutor starting the cross-examination without having everything it
needs to do so. So the Chamber is ready to do everything it can to that
(25)end. So we're fully aware of that, but we're just trying to find a
MR. HARMON: And, Mr. President, after we do that and after we establish the priorities, the next question is will the Language Service Section do the translations that are necessary and give them back to the (10)Office of the Prosecutor prior to the commencement of the cross-examination, because that's the only way that we can work effectively. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Madam Registrar.
THE REGISTRAR: I am deeply aware of the situation, and I have
(15)rendered -- the registrar has rendered help in trying to expedite the
translations of these documents.
I'd first like to say that with regards to the documents that were
submitted yesterday for corrections, I will be talking with translation
after this hearing to see what documents could be done and how long it
(20)will take. That is where we stand right now. As I mentioned previously,
there was no time in the interim to find out.
But I was want to make it clear that the position of the registrar
is to be of assistance when it's possible, but we cannot take on the role
of preparing for either the Prosecution or the Defence. To that end, if
(25)help is needed from us with the translation of documents and working with
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Have you finished, Mr. Harmon? (5) MR. HARMON: Yes, I have, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Fine then. I leave it there. I think that is the only way for us to try and avoid any suspension of the proceedings. So the parties will meet with the mediation of the legal officer and then you will see what needs to be done, whether an order need (10)to be issued, whether a request needs to be made, whether we need to appeal to them. We will see, and we will have a realistic idea of the situation. That is my advice to the parties. But we must conclude for today and thank all the personnel who stayed longer than planned. Have a good weekend. (15) --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.18 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of October, 2000 at 9.20 a.m. |
