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/ Colormap • Page 6567 • {1/81} (1)Monday, 30 October 2000 [Open session] [The witness takes the stand] --- Upon commencing at 9.20 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters; good morning Office of the Prosecutor; good morning, Defence counsel; good morning, General Krstic. We will be resuming our hearings, but before we continue the (10)cross-examination of General Krstic, I would like us to have a brief Status Conference to evaluate the progress we have made. I don't know whether it will be Mr. Harmon or Mr. McCloskey. I should like to ask you when you think you will complete the cross-examination of General Krstic, please. (15) MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours; good morning to my colleagues. We anticipate the cross-examination, at the outside, will be four days. JUDGE WALD: More? (20) MR. HARMON: More. At the outside. It depends on, obviously, the pace in which we proceed, the clarity of the answers that are given, but we anticipate four days at the most. We hope less. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So if I have understood you correctly, more or less until Thursday then. (25)
MR. HARMON: That is correct.
(5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours. Bearing in mind the position of the Prosecution that the cross-examination will take another four days, we hope that our re-examination will not take more than a whole working day, a few hours to a whole working day. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, what is the (10)situation with respect to Defence witnesses now, please? MR. PETRUSIC: It is very bad, Mr. President. In the meantime, in this session of the hearing, we have renounced calling five witnesses so as not to have them wait here, but in view of the rate at which we are progressing, in the course of the afternoon, in collaboration with the (15)Victims and Witness Unit, I think we will have to return two additional witnesses home. I think that is more advisable. If the Defence finds it necessary to call them when we sit again, we will do so, but I think we will not be advised to keep them here as there is little chance of hearing them. (20)Of course, we had assumed that the cross-examination would have ended on Friday, possibly today, but as we have just heard, it will take much longer.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Petrusic, when you say that
you will be calling the witnesses back, does that mean that the witnesses
(25)are already here in The Hague?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So to be more concrete, how many (10)witnesses are here and since when, Mr. Petrusic? MR. PETRUSIC: We have here five witnesses, and they have been here since the 25th of this month or, rather, the 20th. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I don't know if I misunderstand you, but I had information that there were witnesses here ever since the (15)13th of October. Is that true? MR. PETRUSIC: No.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I thought that the first
witnesses who arrived could be heard, because we planned 16 hours for the
examination-in-chief of General Krstic, and it is normal to expect that
(20)the Prosecutor would take roughly the same amount of time. Therefore, I
had planned that there would be witnesses that could begin testifying this
week.
In view of the situation that we have planned for at the beginning
of General Krstic's testimony, I think the situation is even more serious
(25)than we feared, which means that certain decisions have to be made. What
(15)
JUDGE RIAD:
[Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. MR. HARMON: May we have just a moment, Judge Riad, to consult?
JUDGE RIAD: Yes.
(15) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I think that Mr. McGreeghan from
the Victims and Witnesses Unit is here, so perhaps we could hear him in
that connection. Would you be ready to give us your opinion, please?
MR. McGREEGHAN: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning. The Victims and
(20)Witnesses Section is aware of the difficulties of a number of these
witnesses. One witness arrived on the 19th of October, followed by four
witnesses the following day, so we have witnesses here for 13 and 14
days. Two of these witnesses have particular problems, and of course,
because of the logistics and moving those people back home and having them
(25)arrive back here, it's something that we couldn't do short-term.
JUDGE WALD: If I may, Mr. Petrusic, just let me try one variation on Judge Riad's suggestion, which I don't think would upset the Prosecution, is to let them finish their cross-examination and then (15)perhaps take two of the witnesses that Mr. McGreeghan felt are in emergency situations; and then when they're done, come back next week to your redirect and our questions. I just want to get your reaction to whether that's a possibility. THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Your Honour.
JUDGE WALD: And I assume that the Prosecution wouldn't see
any -- or would they? I can't always anticipate that either. MR. HARMON: Judge Wald, we would have no objection to that. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] A problem could arise in the sense
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McGreeghan, do you have a (5)response to Mr. Petrusic's query? MR. McGREEGHAN: Your Honour, without having the possibility to talk to the witnesses concerned, I couldn't be certain, but certainly we would see no difficulty. If they were prepared to travel as a smaller group, we would facilitate that. (10) JUDGE RIAD: May I just ask: Are they vital witnesses for you? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Your Honour, we have made a certain schedule and order in which, in our submission, these witnesses should testify. However, in view of the newly-created situation, we will have to be -- we will have to depart from that order. However, these two (15)witnesses are important for the Defence. JUDGE RIAD: Well, I hope they will come back. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, they would be ready to come back at any moment at the invitation of the Defence, to come and testify. That is not questionable at all. The Defence is quite confident that they (20)will come back. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] We must proceed, but there are
several points to be made. I think that the way in which to proceed would
be as follows: The Defence will contact the Witness and Victim Unit in
(25)order to implement what we have agreed; however, I'm always concerned by
WITNESS: RADISLAV KRSTIC
[Resumed] • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued] (5) • Q.: General Krstic, we were in the evening of July 11, at the meeting between General Mladic, yourself, and DutchBat. I would very briefly like to go back because I did not ask you questions about the meeting that you had at the Bratunac Brigade prior to the meeting with DutchBat. Now, can you tell us what time the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade (10)headquarters took place and who was there? • A.: The meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters started at around 22 hours [as interpreted] The meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters was attended by General Mladic; General Zivanovic; I was there; the commander of the Zvornik Brigade was there, Lieutenant Colonel (15)Pandurevic. Then there was the commander of the Birac Brigade, Colonel Andric; the commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, Colonel Trivic; the commander of the Bratunac Brigade, Colonel Blagojevic; the commander of the Milici Brigade, Major Nastic. Then there was Major Jevdjevic, commander of the battalion, the communications battalion of the Drinski (20)Corps. • Q.: And it's at that meeting that you were given your assignment to command the Zepa battle group; is that right? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: And under whose authority did you obtain the troops, the units,
(25)for that battle group?
• Q.: These were, as you have told us, were Drina Corps units. Was the Drina Corps involved in any way in the process by which you obtained the use of these units? Were they consulted? Were they involved in any way? (5) • A.: No. General Mladic was definite on that point. He expressly said what he did. Nobody from the Command of the Drina Corps, neither General Zivanovic at that meeting nor myself nor anybody else from those present, and I'm thinking about the Commanders of the brigade, were consulted. (10) • Q.: What about equipment? When you needed fuel or equipment and supplies for these units, who would you go through to get this; the Main Staff or the Drina Corps? • A.: We didn't discuss that at all. All the units which were ordered to take part in the operation for Zepa had their own logistics and rear (15)organisations. So at that meeting, this was not something that we discussed at all. • Q.: During the course of the operation, who did you get equipment or fuel from? Did you have to go through the Main Staff or did you go through the Corps or someone else? (20) • A.: As I have said, all the units had their own logistic support, and they had all the equipment, the fuel, the food they needed for the time of the duration of the operation, so that there was no need for any additional supplies for those units.
• Q.: Throughout the Zepa operation, was there any need to involve the
(25)Corps in anything regarding the Zepa operation, between, as you've said,
• A.: Do you mean the Zepa operation itself? • Q.: Yes. • A.: I -- when I was asked by my Defence counsel about this, I already (5)said that, in my opinion, the Zepa operation should not have started at all with that operation or should not have undertaken that operation at all. • Q.: I'm sorry, General, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my question did not involve that. My question was: Throughout the Zepa (10)operation, was there any need to involve the Corps in anything regarding that operation between the 13th and the 2nd? • A.: Yes, there was that need. • Q.: So how was the Drina Corps involved in the Zepa operation? Briefly. We don't need all the -- if you could just outline it. (15) • A.: I'd like to go back to General Mladic's order once again. General Mladic ordered, at the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, that the units should be pulled out and that the operation Zepa should start immediately. • Q.: Did the Drina Corps have any authority, during the periods of (20)July 11th through August 2nd, in the area of the Zepa operation? • A.: Well, by the very fact that I was in command of those forces of the operation, operation Zepa, I was the Commander of those forces, of those troops. • Q.: If you needed more troops, who would you go to get them? (25)
• A.: We had a sufficient number of soldiers. So there was no need for
• Q.: So you didn't need any new troops at any time during the Zepa operation? • A.: No. (5) • Q.: So those assigned to you originally by General Mladic, the brigades on the Zepa order, were the units that you used throughout the operation? • A.: Yes. They were the units, and the Infantry Battalion from the 65th Motorised Regiment, which, before the Zepa operation, was at the (10)position of the defence, that is to say, from the beginning of the conflict in the area. That battalion was there and it was included in this operation. • Q.: All right. If we could go back now to the meeting with the Dutch Battalion. (15)
MR. McCLOSKEY: And we could go to Exhibit 40/A, which is the
transcript that we have of the video portion of that. I think -- there's
just very brief statements I'd like to read. Perhaps we don't need to do
the ELMO if the General can find the section I'm referring to. We have
outlined it. It's not the first group of outline, but it's right near the
(20)end of the transcript, where General Mladic begins speaking, on the last
two pages. You should have an outlined version.
Do you see the outlined version we made for last week?
Wonderful. Thank you. All right. This is on page 0090499, where Mladic
begins to speak, and he says -- it won't be on that page in the B/C/S --
(25)I'm sorry -- that's the English. If you could just go to the outlined
• Q.: 0090499, where Mladic starts with "Please write down ... Number one." Do you see that General? It should be outlined in green. (5) • A.: There is quite a lot underlined in green. I don't know which page you're referring to. MR. McCLOSKEY: If you could hand us the B/C/S, I think we could find it. • Q.: General Krstic, it's where I've circled the big "M" for Mladic, (10)and that's where he speaks. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could zero in down at the bottom of 0090499. It's down at the bottom of the page where there's an "M". Thank you. • Q.: Mladic says: "M: Please write down ... Number one, you need to (15)lay down arms ... and to all those who lay down their weapons ... I'll guarantee they will live ... You have my word ... as a man and a General." Now, General Krstic, did the Muslims, at this meeting or any other meeting, agree to lay down their arms? (20) • A.: As far as I remember, Mr. Mandzic spoke, and Colonel Karremans said that it was impossible to ask them that, to do that, the 28th Division -- for the 28th Division to surrender their weapons, neither could they ensure that.
• Q.: So the answer would be no, you're not aware of the Muslims ever
(25)agreeing to lay down their arms; is that right?
• Q.: Now, I'll skip the next three or four lines and then we have some more outlined parts, and it's on the last page of the English version, 0090499. General Mladic says, "I need to have a clear position of the (5)representative of your people, on whether you want to survive, stay, or disappear." General Krstic, do you recall being there and hearing General Mladic say these words? • A.: I don't remember all the details, but there was something like (10)this. JUDGE RIAD: Can I just ask a clarification? You said that -- Mr. Krstic answered, "I'm not aware that the Muslims agreed to lay down their arms." It means that they did not agree or you don't know? They kept silent, or they refused, or you don't know? (15) • A.: As far as I know, at the request of General Mladic, Colonel Karremans and Mr. Mandzic spoke and they said that they were not able to ensure that, because they did not know themselves where the 28th Division was located. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. Thank you very much. (20) MR. McCLOSKEY:
• Q.: Now, I'll go on reading some of the quotes:
[as read] "From the
Muslim side here at 1000 hours with whom I can discuss the salvation of
your people from the enclave." Then he continues: "We will ..." and I
skip some, "We will treat your fighters. Your fighters will lay down
(25)their arms in accordance with international conventions." Then I'll
• A.: I can't remember having heard all of that at the meeting. I said earlier on that it was difficult for me to remember some of the details (10)and having attended that meeting at all at 11.00. • Q.: Having reviewed this transcript and these statements and having heard it before, what was General Mladic getting at? What was this language all about, in your view? • A.: Well, I don't wish to comment on the statements made by General (15)Mladic and what he thought. • Q.: My question was: What did you think General Mladic was talking about? What was he getting at, speaking like this to Nesib Mandzic and the Dutch? • A.: I've already said that I don't wish to comment. I'd rather not (20)comment on everything he said when addressing Mr. Mandzic. I said that I don't remember the details, all the details, except for the fact that he called for the surrender of the 28th Division; that is to say, he called for them to surrender their weapons.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I believe this is a legitimate
(25)question, to comment on what he thought, not what was going on in General
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, I agree. The question is a legitimate one. (5)General Krstic, the Prosecutor is not asking you what Mladic thought; he is asking you what you heard coming out of his mouth. And it is also true, Mr. Prosecutor, that General Krstic also said that he does not recall the details very well. So could you try to answer the question: What did you hear and (10)what did you understand of what Mladic said, if you have an answer to that. • A.: It is only now, from this transcript, that I can see the details, Mr. President. I said that I don't remember everything, and in the statement to the OTP before this, I did not speak about these details. (15)The very fact that I was -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General Krstic. I apologise for interrupting you, but now you have -- unless you say that this was never said, that this was never stated, but it is a transcript of what General Mladic said on the occasion. Now you have the text in front (20)of you, and I'd like to ask you whether you have a comment to make. If so, you can do so now. • A.: I can just link this up to his demand with respect to the surrender of the 28th Division and the surrender of their weapons. I can't explain it in any other way, any other context. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Okay. Mr. Prosecutor, you have
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: At this meeting, did you become concerned regarding General Mladic's intent towards the Muslim population at Potocari? (5) • A.: The very fact that we succeeded, we managed to prevent the continuation of an attack on Srebrenica towards Potocari, goes to testify, to support what you have just asked. There was such a large mass of people without sufficient quantities of all the necessities, and of course there was concern. (10) • Q.: Did you speak to General Mladic after this meeting or at any time during the meeting regarding these statements that he's made to Mr. Mandzic, specifically the threatening statements of "salvation of your people," "the future of your people is in your hands," "save your people from destruction"? (15) • A.: No. Either before the meeting or during the meeting or after the meeting, I did not speak to him, because at that meeting nobody else even took part in a discussion of any kind when it came to the Serbian side. It was just him, Colonel Karremans, and Mr. Mandzic, and that was the same thing on the meeting of the 12th. (20) • Q.: So by the night of the 11th there was a big job ahead dealing with the thousands of people in Potocari, and when was the decision made what to do with those people? And I can try to clarify that. When was the decision to transport the people?
• A.: The decision, as far as I recall, was made on the 12th, at the
(25)meeting then. And before that, if there was anything of that kind, I was
• Q.: The meeting on the 12th took place from about 10.00 to 11.00 in the morning; is that right? • A.: As far as I remember, it ended at around 12.00, a little before (5)12.00. • Q.: Do you recall the testimony that numerous buses started arriving in Potocari at 1.00 p.m.? Do you remember that testimony, on the 12th? • A.: Well, I don't know anything about the arrival of the buses. • Q.: Is it fair to say that there must have been a lot of organisation (10)going on to get those buses and to make the arrangements to get the people transported? • A.: I don't know that. I did not in any way -- I was not in any way included in securing the buses. • Q.: Also on the evening of July 11th, a Muslim column started moving (15)out of the Susnjari-Jaglici area. Did you receive any intelligence reports on their movements that evening? • A.: No, no reports whatsoever. We didn't receive any reports, because at the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters we noticed, when Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic said that we had no contact nor did we know (20)where the 28th Division was located. I or any of the brigade commanders, we did not know where the 28th Division was and what they were doing, what their intention was and what their objective was. • Q.: Were you personally concerned about where they were that evening?
• A.: I was given an assignment. This -- I talked about that. And it
(25)was the assignment towards Zepa, what I was to do in that regard. And
• Q.: So you were not concerned about the Muslim column yourself? You (5)were assigned to Zepa. That was your responsibility. • A.: Yes, and that's all I thought about. • Q.: The column, obviously we know now, made the decision to go towards Tuzla that night. They had other options and other places they could have gone that night, didn't they? (10) • A.: I don't know what other places that night. I didn't know anything about that at all that night, that a column was being set up and that it had moved towards the breakthrough of Tuzla, or in any other direction, for that matter. • Q.: The column could have decided to go towards Zepa, couldn't it? (15) • A.: That was up to the Command of the 28th Division. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, do you think we could take a break at this point? Is that convenient? MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Of course. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let us now take a 15-minute (20)break. --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.35 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, please proceed. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. (25)
• Q.: General Krstic, regarding communications abilities of the VRS
• A.: I am not a signals man. There were communications and there were (5)specialists for communications. In most cases, they were protected, the communication lines. • Q.: In some cases, were radio and telephone communications unprotected? • A.: I don't know that. This is the responsibility of people working (10)in communications and their superior officers. • Q.: Do you recall telling Mr. Ruez that occasionally you'd communicate over open lines for brief amounts of time? • A.: Yes. That was after I arrived at Zepa, my conversation with General Zivanovic at the forward command post at Krivaca. (15) • Q.: So, generally speaking, sometimes units of the Drina Corps or people would speak over open airwaves that were interceptable? Excuse me. Let me rephrase that. Sometimes Drina Corps officers or units would speak over the open airwaves? • A.: I don't know that. (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could briefly refer, Your Honour, to the interview with Mr. Ruez on this point. It's -- unfortunately, it's the full interview, which is under seal. I was trying to avoid this, but it's 228A bis, and it is under seal. I don't believe it's a sensitive area, but I'm told if it's under seal, we should go in private session. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Let us go into private
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may continue. MR. McCLOSKEY: (5) • Q.: General Krstic, did the forces of the -- the Muslim forces have the capability of intercepting your radio or telephone communications, as far as you know, at the time? • A.: I didn't know at all at the time what devices they had at their disposal. I could only assume that they have some of the equipment of the (10)former JNA, as did the army of Republika Srpska. That is what I am saying now, but in those days, I didn't give the matter much thought. • Q.: Did you communicate over the radio or telephone without giving the matter much -- without being concerned whether or not you could be intercepted? (15) • A.: You mean during the operation for Zepa? • Q.: At any time between the 11th and August, when you communicated over the airways, were you concerned that you could be intercepted? • A.: I was not concerned about that at all. • Q.: So when you did communicate to your forces, you were able to speak (20)freely, without concern of being intercepted? • A.: Let me repeat once again which devices are used to communicate with the brigade commanders on. It was a reliable and safe line. • Q.: As far as you knew at the time, did the Muslim forces have the capacity to intercept telephone or radio communications of the VRS? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: I don't know. I don't know whether they had the ability to intercept them, whether they had the necessary equipment and whether they could intercept. (5) • Q.: Your forces surely had the ability to intercept communications from the Muslims, did they not? • A.: I never inquired into those things. There was a separate service that was working on those matters. But these -- that information was never reliable. (10) • Q.: Did your forces have the capability to intercept enemy forces' communications? • A.: Probably they did. But as I said, that information cannot be relied upon. • Q.: Now, you've seen the intercept evidence that was presented at this (15)trial. It's the submission of the Prosecution that this evidence is credible and reliable. What is your opinion regarding the intercept evidence? • A.: I think I have already answered that question. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this is the first time any question (20)has been directly asked about the intercepts in this case. I would request a response.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. I think General Krstic has
already answered in general for all communications.
Now, General Krstic, the Prosecutor is asking you regarding the
(25)intercepts that you saw produced here in court. So could you respond,
• A.: I simply cannot assert that those are correct and reliable data. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But you do understand that you (5)need to answer that question. You said before that those communications, in general, cannot be relied upon, but now the Prosecutor has asked you specifically in regard to those intercepts. So your answer is more or less the same. Mr. Prosecutor, you may continue. I do apologise for interpreting (10)what the witness had said, but it is up to you to provide the answers, not myself or the Prosecutor or the Defence. I have given you the reasons why you should answer the question. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: You've seen the procedures whereby a young man listens over the (15)radio and tapes a conversation, then replays the conversation, carefully writing it in a little notebook, and you've seen the notebooks in this case. What is not reliable about the information on the notebook or why is that not a reliable and credible system?
• A.: I simply cannot make an assessment of the reliability of something
(20)for the simple reason I have already said, that the communications
equipment that the VRS had and that the information obtained in that way
could not be reliable, and also the details I heard during the testimony
of witnesses here about these that refer to me, among others. It is quite
out of the question that I would use certain expressions or introduce
(25)myself as Krle and so on or that I had contacted somebody in a given
• Q.: Is it your belief that the intercept operators that have taken this information down are mistaken or is it your belief that this information has been fabricated? (5) • A.: As for the validity of those documents and the information they collected, an assessment of those should be made by the superiors. I cannot say whether they are valid or fabricated. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 500A, and if we could put that on the ELMO. This is an exhibit that is dated -- excuse me. (10)This is an intercept dated 12 July, 0603 hours, and the information notes that: "From Jaglici towards Buzim up there towards our neighbour," and then it says at the end: "... a column." General, Jaglici is an actual village inside the enclave; is that not correct? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And Buljim is an area that the column actually went through on the night of the 11th or 12th; is that not correct? • A.: Ravni Buljim was under the control of the army of Republika Srpska. (20) • Q.: And the column went through that area to escape from the enclave on the night of the 11th and on the 12th, did they not?
• A.: I don't know whether the column went through Ravni Buljim. It is
almost impossible for them to have gone through there because this is a
feature, an unwooded area, which dominates the whole region, and I don't
(25)believe that anyone would have dared --
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, we have an exhibit here in English, and I would like the General to have the same exhibit in the Serbian language, because I see that there is a question mark (5)regarding the name of the area through which the BH army passed. So I don't know whether this was added by the translator, whether it's somebody's commentary, or whether it is found on the original document, the name of the area through which they passed, or it may have been an error on the part of the person who was writing the document, and that is (10)an additional reason why we need to see the original of this document. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. Can the General have the document in B/C/S, please. MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour, absolutely. It was my understanding that the B/C/S was attached to the English, as others were, (15)and that he just needs to take a look. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, but he doesn't have it, I think. Oh, I see. We have it now. I see it now on the ELMO. So please continue, Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could go to the next exhibit, (20)which is 502A bis. It should have 502B bis attached to it, the B/C/S version. And if we could make sure the General has access to that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic.
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, I should like to ask
that we take note of this. In the original document there's no mention of
(25)Buljim, but Buzim, so this must have been an addition made by the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, rephrase your question, bearing this remark in mind, this discrepancy between the original and the translation. What is the word used in the B/C/S (5)version? MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe Mr. Visnjic is correct. Perhaps during the translation someone added the -- they added the question mark, Buljim, and that appears to be something perhaps translation has added. And I'm still asking the question: Is there a village Buljim that the column went (10)through? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, go ahead. MR. McCLOSKEY: And I believe he answered it, so we may be able to go on to the next one, though I can try to clarify it. • Q.: General, are you familiar with any village in the area of the (15)enclave called Buzim? • A.: There's no village in the enclave called Buzim, as far as I know. There is a Buzim in the western part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 502A bis. If we could put the English on the ELMO, provide the General -- the B/C/S is 502B (20)bis. All right. And if we could keep the initials at the bottom of this. Thank you.
• Q.: Now, General, without going into -- taking the time to fully read
this, if you could familiarise yourself with it, I won't take the time to
read it, and just ask you a few particularised questions about it. Now,
(25)General, from this intercept it appears that there is a --
MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we make sure the General has the -- it should be right there with the other exhibit. But don't -- please don't put it on the ELMO. You can just hand it to him so he can take a look at it. (5)General Krstic -- Your Honour, this is under seal, this exhibit, so we probably should go into private session to discuss it, and I hope it will be a brief discussion.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Okay. Let us move into private
(10)session for a few moments.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please proceed. We're in open session, Mr. McCloskey. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: When did you first learn of the presence of MUP forces in the area around Bratunac? • A.: That it was Bratunac I learnt in the evening at the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, when General Mladic said that the (20)detachment had arrived of the special forces of MUP. • Q.: And were you aware of who was in command of those MUP forces? • A.: At that time, I did not know who brought those forces nor did I know about their involvement at all, that they would be engaged at all. • Q.: Who was the Commander of those MUP forces? (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey? MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, on the statement that was -- the interview of Mr. Ruez of the General that was played in public, this (10)question was answered by the General. He said in open, over the open air, who the commander was. So that's already been out. Now, we can go into private. It would be for simplicity's sake. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are going to stick to the principle that the hearings are public. The name has already been (15)divulged to the public, so I don't think that there is any problem there with respect to the General repeating what he has already said in open session, in public. General, would you please answer the question. Mr. McCloskey, go ahead and ask your question again, please. (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: General, you told Mr. Ruez the commander of that unit, and perhaps that refreshes --
• A.: I apologise, Mr. McCloskey. I really do apologise, but I think
that in the course of the public debate, after the interview that I gave
(25)to Mr. Ruez, that I did not mention that name in public.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, at all events, I think that we have a question here, and that is that if the General said (5)in public, why are you making him repeat the information again? Take the information that you received publicly and go ahead with your question, the question you have to ask. Why do you wish to oblige the General to repeat? You can make use of the information that is already publicly known. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: I was hoping he would just tell me the answer, but I can read it back, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please proceed. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 399A bis, which is the public redacted version of the General's interview, and if we could (15)provide him with the B/C/S version of it. We had it out and were using it. I know that was last week. While they're looking for it, perhaps I can just read the section and see if that refreshes the General's recollection. • Q.: On page 17 of the English transcript, Mr. Ruez says: (20)"Q. Can you be more precise on this MUP Brigade, if it has a name or name of the commander? • A.: The detachment Commander was Borovcanin." Now, General, is that correct? Was the detachment Commander a Borovcanin? (25)
• A.: No. Mr. Borovcanin was not the -- a commander of the brigade.
• A.: I would like to appeal to you once again, if I may, that if you want me to give an answer, may we go back into private session, please? MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I would place this issue at your (5)behest. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Krstic, why do you need a private session at this point? • A.: Mr. President, for the simple reason that I spoke in private session about the village of Sandici and everything that happened around (10)it and that I identified certain individuals. So I did not know who the commander of that detachment was and who brought him to the area, but I recognised a certain person on the videotape, and it is true that Mr. Ruez showed me this picture as a freeze from that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. But if you spoke in (15)private session, as you know, your interview was public, as you know -- made public, as you know. So it is a little difficult for us to accept that what is already public now goes back to private session, General. • A.: Mr. President, I really -- it is very difficult for me to dispute matters with the Trial Chamber. Everything was public on the tape. The (20)whole interview was made public. Among other things, all the details that I mentioned here and that we discussed in private session as well, and you accepted that part of that should not be repeated in open session. You accepted that. So those are the reasons.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I asked you, General, what are
(25)your own reasons for not repeating what has already been stated in
• A.: The security and safety of my family. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Perhaps we should (5)take a 15-minute break now before we continue. After that we'll come back with the ruling. --- Recess taken at 11.18 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, the question that (10)you have to ask is part of the public interview or does it belong to the non-public part? MR. McCLOSKEY: It's part of the -- THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: It's part of the public interview, the question I (15)just read from Mr. Ruez to clarify who the commander is. He made the answer, and that's pretty much it, subject -- JUDGE WALD: So you're willing to move on? MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd like to have him answer who this guy is and what he did. I really would love to move on, Your Honour, but I'd like an (20)answer on the record in the trial on who this fellow is. And of course, I think that's what the problem is. He obviously doesn't want to talk about that in open session.
JUDGE WALD: Given a choice at this juncture, would you rather go
into private session and get it or insist and take your risk of not
(25)getting it? How important is it to you?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, I think that there
has been a slight misunderstanding here, because we are referring to the
(15)interview and the context of questions posed by Mr. Ruez in concrete terms
with this question, that is to say, who was the commander of the police or
the special forces of MUP, rather, in general terms, in the formational
structure, and now we're asking an answer to the question of who at that
time, at that location, was the commander of the special MUP police, which
(20)is different, essentially, to the question posed by the Prosecutor as
opposed to the question asked of General Krstic in his interview.
So if we are moving towards the public document, that is to say,
the interview that was given, and in any further asking of questions it
would be a good idea for the Prosecutor -- of course, it is not my
(25)intention to teach him his business, but it would be a good idea if the
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] The Chamber has already decided,
(10)with respect to the Defence, that certain questions should be and were
asked in private session. But as you know full well, the reasons which
led the Chamber to take that decision were of a particular order which I
don't wish to repeat here and now.
Therefore, the principle that we followed was that the repetition
(15)that -- repetition can be considered, but we considered it in another
light; that is to say, there is one portion of the interview of
General Krstic which is public in nature and there is another portion
which is not public. But at all events, we said that there were perhaps
some questions that the Prosecutor could ask in private session. We did
(20)acknowledge that because we are trying to strike this very difficult
balance to get at the truth, the whole truth, and also to take care of
security and to respect reasons for security, and, therefore, we have to
strike that balance and to try to do so.
So we should like to have General Krstic answer because it's
(25)important to establish the truth. It is in his defence, in actual fact,
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] We are in open session.
(25)Mr. McCloskey, you may continue.
• Q.: Were you aware of any other officer with the last name Borovcanin in the Drina Corps? • A.: There were quite a number of Borovcanins while I was in the 2nd (5)Romanija Brigade, commander of that brigade, in the territory of Sokolac municipality and Olovo. It is quite a common surname in that area. • Q.: What was the first name of that other Borovcanin? • A.: I don't know. I don't remember. • Q.: During the period of time of Srebrenica -- July 4th, early July, (10)and the month of July -- were there any officers named Borovcanin that were involved in the operation in any way, be it Drina Corps, MUP, Main Staff, besides this one Borovcanin that we spoke of prior? • A.: I think that there is a witness -- MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, we've entered a (15)rather risky area now. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] It is still not necessary. The question is whether there were other persons with the same surname, and your answer is "yes" or "no" for the moment. There's no need to go into further specifics. (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: So there was this witness who we'll hopefully have a chance to hear from. Anyone else? • A.: I don't remember anyone else, if there were any others.
• Q.: All right. On the morning of 12 July, was General Zivanovic
(25)active as the Corps Commander, or was he still sidelined?
(5) • Q.: So on the morning of 12 July, as Chief of Staff, what was the activity, what was the biggest priority that the Drina Corps command had at that time? • A.: The priority for the Drina Corps were twofold. There were two. That is, the pulling out of the forces that had entered Srebrenica on the (10)11th of July and their deployment along a different axis, and the defence of the north-western part of the area of responsibility of the Corps from the direction of Tuzla, Zivinice, and Olovo. Those were our priorities and the only assignments of the Drina Corps at the time. • Q.: The Drina Corps was heavily involved in organising the refugees in (15)Potocari, was it not? • A.: All I learnt about that was here in the Court of the proceedings. You mentioned General Zivanovic and the other senior officers about whom we heard evidence here in Court. MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have Exhibit 436A placed on the ELMO, and (20)the B/C/S version 436B provided to the General to review. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, let us hear your question, please. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
• Q.: General Krstic, this order appears to be an order signed by
(25)General Zivanovic, requesting buses for the Drina Corps. Is that right?
• Q.: Were you aware of this order on 12 July? • A.: I learnt about it only when my Defence obtained this document. MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to Exhibit 435A, and if the General could (5)be provided the B/C/S version. It should be attached. • Q.: This is an intercept dated 12 July, at 0735 hours, between, and I quote, "Someone called Krstic and Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic." General Krstic, is there a Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic in the Drina Corps Command Staff? (10) • A.: Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic was chief of the transportation service in the logistic body of the Drina Corps. • Q.: And in his capacity in that position, would his position deal with the transportation of and logistics for moving people and refugees in a situation such as we had in Potocari? (15) • A.: Yes, that would be his job, and his superior commander, the assistant for logistics, and the Corps Commander. • Q.: Is there anyone else named Krstic in the Drina Corps Command Staff? • A.: There was only in the logistics base in Sokolac a Krstic. (20) • Q.: What rank was that Krstic, and can you tell us his full name, please? • A.: I don't know his name. I think at the time his rank was Lieutenant Colonel.
• Q.: Do you know whether or not he was involved at all in the area of
(25)Potocari, Bratunac, Srebrenica, during July 11th, 12th, 13th, 1995?
• Q.: Would he have been in a position to order Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic to get buses? • A.: I don't know. This logistics base was a logistics base of the (5)Main Staff. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 359A. And if we could go into private session because this is under seal.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Let's go into private
session, please.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are in open session. You can continue, Mr. McCloskey. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Again, General Krstic, this suggests that you wanted the buses or a Krstic wanted the buses to start moving right away. You're denying that this was you? • A.: Yes. At the time, from early morning at 6.00 until just before (15)the beginning of the meeting, I was not in Bratunac at all. I was at the forward command post at Pribicevac. I had no communications from Pribicevac at all because the communications centre was disbanded in the night between the 11th and 12th. So I had no telephone lines with anyone from the forward command post. (20) • Q.: You arrived back into Bratunac in time to go to the morning meeting with DutchBat and the civilian representatives. About what time did you arrive? • A.: It was just before the beginning of the meeting. I arrived at the meeting, which I think started around 10.00 on the 12th. (25)
• Q.: You were the second highest-ranking officer in that meeting, were
• A.: By rank, yes. • Q.: What kind of briefing did you receive prior to going to that meeting about the meeting? (5) • A.: No particular briefing except in the morning at 6.00 from the operations officer on duty, who told me that I had to attend a meeting to be held that day, starting at 1000 hours. I didn't know at all who was going to attend that meeting, except that in the evening General Mladic scheduled the meeting for 10.00, but he didn't tell me to attend that (10)meeting. • Q.: So were you without communications from 6.00 a.m. to 10.00 a.m. on the morning of the 12th? • A.: Yes. After I left the Command of the Bratunac Brigade where I spent the night, I had no communications facilities because the (15)communications centre at Pribicevac had been disbanded. • Q.: And you spoke to -- did you not speak to General Mladic prior to the meeting? • A.: No. I didn't see him either before the meeting nor did I have any conversations with him at all. (20) • Q.: How about Lieutenant Colonel Popovic? Did you speak to him before the meeting? • A.: No, not at all. I didn't speak to him. I saw him attending the meeting. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 52. (25)
• Q.: Did you speak -- did you have any idea what this meeting was
• A.: Well, on the 11th, in the evening, General Mladic said that there would be another meeting on the same subject as that meeting, and I had no further information as to what the meeting would be about. (5) • Q.: Is this photograph, Exhibit 52, is this an accurate reflection of some of the people at that meeting? • A.: Yes. I didn't really pay much attention as to who was sitting where nor did I take special notice of any particular individuals, but I did see this in the course of the proceedings here. (10) • Q.: Can you identify the people in this photograph, starting from the gentleman on the right side with the glass in his hand and going over towards his right? MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we get 55. • A.: This is probably an officer from the UNPROFOR Dutch Battalion. (15)This is Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: General, excuse me. Could you start with the man in the right-hand side of the picture with the glass in his hand, with him, and then move over? And if you don't know who they are, just tell us. (20) • A.: I know only two people, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic and Lieutenant Colonel Milutinovic from the Main Staff, the Information Service. This was a man I never saw, though he was present at the meeting, and it was only here that I realised who this person was.
• Q.: For the record, you're pointing to a person in a camouflage shirt
(25)at the end of the table on the far left who has been identified as
• A.: Yes. But I had never seen him before until then and that is why I didn't recognise him just now like I did the other officers. • Q.: And for the record, you said that it -- Milutinovic is sitting on (5)Colonel Jankovic's left side? • A.: Yes, between Jankovic and Popovic. That is Milutinovic. MR. McCLOSKEY: Lieutenant Colonel Popovic is sitting to the left of Milutinovic, for the record. Now -- • A.: Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. (10) • Q.: I want to direct your attention now to the bottom of the photograph and to the woman. Do you recall her presence at the meeting? • A.: I remember that she was present. It is this lady who testified here. It was here that I identified her. • Q.: And then -- (15) • A.: If it hadn't been for this trial, I would never have been able to recognise that woman. MR. McCLOSKEY: A couple of brief questions on this photograph, Your Honour, and then we should be ready to break. • Q.: The person on the left of Camila Osmanovic is a man named Ibro (20)Nuhanovic. Do you recall Mr. Nuhanovic? • A.: No. I just remember Mandzic. • Q.: Do you have any information on what happened to Ibro Nuhanovic, his wife, and his 21-year-old son after this meeting? • A.: No, I have no information whatsoever. (25)
• Q.: What happened to Avdo Palic, the Muslim that negotiated with
• A.: Could we refer to that in closed session? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The question being asked by the (5)Prosecutor was answered by the General in a segment that was not made public, a segment of the interview in his interview with Mr. Ruez, so I think the circumstances warrant that we go into private session. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe that's correct, Your Honour. And again, (10)they're absolutely correct.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So let's go into private session
now, please.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are now in open session and (15)we are going to have a one-hour break now.
--- Luncheon recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, are you prepared to proceed? MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I believe we should have (5)Exhibit 55 on the ELMO, and we can get ready to follow with Exhibit 49A. That's the transcript of the video. • Q.: General Krstic, this is a photograph of you and General Mladic at that meeting of 12 July; is that correct? • A.: Yes. On the basis of the video of the proceedings, I saw that (10)that was from the meeting of the 12th of July. • Q.: I would like to direct your attention now to part of the transcript which has been on exhibit -- 49A is the English, and the B/C/S should be highlighted, the first place it's highlighted. MR. McCLOSKEY: If the General could be given the B/C/S, and if we (15)could put the English on at page 00904999. • Q.: I'll ask you about the statement. MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the purposes of the ELMO, we would like it -- it's actually, there is a page 9 on the bottom right-hand corner. If we could start with page 9, Mr. Usher, with the English. Page 9. It (20)should be in the right-hand corner. Then 00904999. It's 49A, not 49C, and it's just ... • Q.: I want to start with the -- where General Mladic says, "I want to help you." So you can see that paragraph starting, "I want to help you." And I'll read that. (25)
(M.:) I want to help you, but I want absolute cooperation of the
(20) • A.: I did sit next to General Mladic, but as far as all these details of what he said are concerned, I can't remember them all, but the tone was similar.
• Q.: Well, in particular, the statement of survive or disappear and
then for survival he lists some conditions, do you recall that part of
(25)it?
• Q.: Did you become concerned for the fate of the Muslim refugees after hearing what Mladic had to say at this meeting and the previous meeting? • A.: I think that I answered that question of yours yesterday. (5) MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this question was addressed to this meeting, and I would -- that's -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: General Krstic, answer the question, please. • A.: Well, I did not know any of the details of what General Mladic was intending to do, but I did think about these people who were present (10)there, the representatives of the Muslim people, what they would do, how they could come into contact with the 28th Division and their most responsible men, because they were asked to surrender weapons and for the forces of the 28th Division to surrender. I was wondering how these people would ensure that. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: You say you didn't know the details of what General Mladic was going to do. Did you know in general what he had in mind for the people of Potocari, the women and children? • A.: I did not speak about the details, the details of what he would (20)do. I was saying -- talking about the details of what he said, his speech which I have in front of me. I didn't know at all what he was going to do, none of the details. What I said referred to what he said and what is in front of me here, what I have before me, his statements before me now.
• Q.: Would you agree that the military-age men from Potocari did, in
(25)fact, disappear over the next two days?
• Q.: Did you speak to General Mladic during the meeting? • A.: No, not at all. I didn't speak to him at all. I took no part in the meeting. (5) • Q.: After the meeting, did you speak with General Mladic? • A.: No. I got up and went to carry out my assignment, the assignment that was given to me at the headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade on the 11th, in the evening. • Q.: Was there anything to prevent you from speaking to General Mladic (10)and telling him not to harm the refugees in Potocari? • A.: I did not have time. General Mladic, as was his custom, to get up and conclude the meeting without any comment, he got up straight away. • Q.: Did you see Colonel Beara anywhere around Bratunac on the 12 July? • A.: No. (15) • Q.: Do you recall General Mladic mentioning something about checking the men between 16 and 60 at this meeting in the morning of 12 July? • A.: On the evening of the 11th, that they would check this out. That's what he told the representatives of UNPROFOR and the representatives of the Muslim people. (20) • Q.: What did he say, did General Mladic say? • A.: Mladic said that the members of the 28th Division must be checked out in order to find people who had perhaps committed war crimes. • Q.: Did you discuss this with the command staff on the 11th of July or the 12th of July, how this would be done? (25)
• A.: No, not at all, because that was not my task, or any task in
JUDGE WALD: Could I just clarify one thing, General? You said (5)that General Mladic said that members of the 28th Division must be checked out to see if they had committed war crimes. When you say "members of the 28th Division," in your memory, if that was the term that General Mladic used, is that the same as any man of military age who might be found in Potocari? I mean, when you say "members of the 28th Division would be (10)checked out," did you understand that to mean any man of military age that might be found in Potocari? In other words, was he drawing a distinction between members of the 28th Division, who would be army people, and civilian men, or was, in your view, he was equating any man of military age who might be found in Potocari among the refugees would be included in (15)this screening to see if they had committed war crimes? • A.: Well, as regards any special details in his speech, they did not exist, but I understood that he wanted to screen the members of the 28th Division, regardless of where they were located, where they were to be found. (20) JUDGE WALD: Did you understand that to mean that if there were men of military age among the refugees in Potocari, they would be screened out, they would be screened to see if they had committed war crimes? • A.: Well, that was obvious from his -- from what he said. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. McCloskey, I apologise for
(5) • A.: Yes, that's right. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You said on several occasions, as somebody who knew General Mladic well, that he gave the choice either to survive or to disappear. Were you not preoccupied with the fate of those civilians, what was to become of them? (10) • A.: I said earlier on that nobody could or dared comment on anything that General Mladic said. It was a fait accompli. And my thoughts were thoughts that remained deep inside me. They were my own personal thoughts. I wondered how the representatives, that is to say, those two people who were present at the meeting, would be able to implement what (15)General Mladic was requesting. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And with respect to your thoughts and deliberations, were you deeply concerned or was this just a superficial thought: Well, they'll get by it somehow; they'll find a way out somehow? What was the degree of your preoccupations? What did you (20)feel at this time? To what degree did you feel this or give it thought? • A.: I thought that the representatives of the Muslim people and the UNPROFOR command would contact the 28th Division and that they would find a solution of some kind. Those were my thoughts, along those lines.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Okay. Very well. Thank you.
(25)Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
• Q.: General Krstic, in Exhibit 271, the Srebrenica missing document, there are approximately 1.400, mostly men, that are reported missing by their relatives on 12 and 13 July in Potocari. Based on your experience, (5)having been there, does that seem about right to you, 1.400 men of military age in Potocari at the time? • A.: I don't have that exhibit in front of me, and I cannot make any assessment as to whether that figure is a correct one. I said earlier on that all my knowledge about those events, because at noon on the 12th I (10)had already left the area, so that all my knowledge came much later. • Q.: In the reviewing of prisoners for war crimes, would it be normal to take their identification documents away from them and discard them? • A.: Yes, I saw that here during the proceedings. I don't know who did that nor for what purpose. I am still not certain whether those documents (15)were there, but clearly, from what I saw, there were some such instances as well. The normal procedure would be to establish the identity of those people. • Q.: So if their identity and their other personal property was taken from them and destroyed, like we saw, that would not be a normal part of (20)an investigation into war crimes? • A.: No.
• Q.: It is the submission of the Prosecution that the plan to separate
the military-aged men at Potocari was developed sometime prior to the
actual separation of those men from their families and removal of their
(25)documents. Can you comment on this?
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] As it has to do with the English translation, Mr. Visnjic will do it better than I can. (10) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, we've just lost the line that I wanted to comment on, because the Prosecutor said that from Exhibit 271, it appears that 1.400 men disappeared in Potocari, and that line has disappeared from the screen, but I found that document, and in that document, maybe the translation is wrong, but no number of missing (15)people from Potocari is mentioned in that document. So that would be my observation. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So, Mr. McCloskey, you have at least two points to react to and clarify. The mentioned document, does it indeed give this number? It's not so important for the question, but if (20)the number figure is in the record, perhaps we need to clear it up. The other thing is whether it was normal or not to remove the documents of persons that were being screened.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. On point one, you have to
count in the document to come up with that number, and the persons that
(25)have been helping us with these documents have done that and came up with
• Q.: Is that right, General? This would not be a normal thing to do? (10) • A.: Yes. It would not. • Q.: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Is that clear now, Mr. Visnjic? We are not discussing now the number of missing persons. The question put to the General was to see whether it was normal to have such a large (15)number of people. Whether it is 1.000 or 1.400, I don't think that is relevant. Mr. Visnjic? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I am satisfied with Mr. McCloskey's explanation. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Mr. McCloskey, (20)continue, please. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: It's the submission of the Prosecution that the plans to murder the military-aged men from Potocari began -- was developed prior to their separation at Potocari. Can you comment on this? (25)
• A.: I am not aware of any plan nor of any indications or signs that
MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go now to Exhibit 445A, and if the (5)General could be given the B/C/S version. It is an intercept dated 12 July, 12.50 hours, between General Mladic and an unidentified male person. • Q.: Take a moment to look at that. And I would call your attention to, in particular, in the middle of the page where, according to this (10)document, General Mladic says, "They've all capitulated and surrendered and we'll evacuate them all - those who want to and those who don't want to." And the person responds and says, "I understand, General." Now, based on your knowledge now as you sit in this courtroom, do you believe the Muslim refugees had a free choice whether to go to the (15)Muslim territory or whether to stay in the former enclave? • A.: I don't know what kind of choice they had, but at the meeting in Bratunac on the 12th, they decided to go to the territory under the control of the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. • Q.: Do you believe this was under their own free will, without (20)coercion? • A.: I'm not able to comment on that, because they decided to go. • Q.: Did you know whether or not the people at the meetings, Muslim people, were afraid? Could you see their fear at those meetings?
• A.: I didn't notice anything more in relation to what I have already
(25)said.
THE USHER: Which page in the English? MR. McCLOSKEY: The English is page 33, and it's page 20 in the B/C/S -- version of the B/C/S. General, if you could go to that page 20, and it starts, "As far (10)as the deportation is concerned ..." which is the second paragraph. If you could zero in the ELMO on that, the second -- well -- there you go. That's it. That's fine. And I'll just read part of this: "As far as the deportation is concerned, since that is the first (15)activity on the list, and this is what I have information on, this is what happened: The deportation took place on the 12th and 13th of July. This was organised, led, and managed by the Commander of the Main Staff, through these senior officers that I have listed. General Mladic was the one who was literally there, commanding the loading of people onto (20)buses." • Q.: Do you stand by that statement, General? • A.: That could be seen during the proceedings. Yes. I said, "Yes." • Q.: And you were also there on 12 July, in the afternoon, in Potocari, weren't you? (25)
• A.: I stayed at the checkpoint, from which I went back and then I
MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We'll get into that a little more later, hopefully soon. But if we could now go to Exhibit 446A, which is an intercept at 1305 hours in the afternoon. • Q.: General, do you recall where you might have been -- or excuse (10)me -- where you were at about 1300 hours? • A.: At 1300 hours, I was on the way -- on the road between Voljevica, Sase, and Pribicevac. That was the time when I went back from the checkpoint at Potocari, heading towards the forward command post at Pribicevac. (15) • Q.: Did you have the ability to communicate over radio or telephone during your transportation period that you've just described? • A.: No. There's no telephone along the road. And even when I reached Pribicevac -- this was about 1400 hours -- there were no lines, because the communication centre had been dismantled in the night between the 11th (20)and the 12th of July. • Q.: Looking at this Exhibit 446, do you know of a Drina Corps person named Sobot? • A.: Yes. He was an officer in the logistics body of the Drina Corps command. (25)
• Q.: All right. And I note further down there's mention of the
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Then there's mention of a Kosoric, and there was a Lieutenant (5)Colonel Kosoric that was the Chief of Intelligence for the Drina Corps; is that correct? • A.: Kosoric was a Chief of Intelligence in the Corps Command, and there is another Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric, the Commander of the Vlasenica Brigade. At the time, he was a Major. (10) • Q.: So in the context of this conversation, this "Give me Kosoric" would more likely be the Kosoric that's the chief of the Vlasenica Brigade? • A.: I don't know who was asking for him. There are two Kosorics. • Q.: All right. Now, there's a mention -- it says, "Give me Savo. Put (15)me through to Savo." And do you know anyone in the logistics area of the Vlasenica Brigade that has a first name or a nickname of Savo? • A.: Yes, there was an officer by the name of Savo. • Q.: And what was his full name? • A.: I can't remember his surname now, but his name is Savo. (20) • Q.: Is it Captain Celikovic? • A.: Possible. There were quite a number of Celikovics. There were other Celikovic officers. • Q.: Did he have a nickname Srpski or is that just a general exclamation about a fellow Serb? (25)
• A.: I don't know whether he had any kind of nickname.
• A.: I know that there is a tunnel going from Tisca towards Kladanj. MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could go back to the interview (5)page. It's the Exhibit 399, same page, just a little bit farther down. Page 33 on the English version, page 20 on the B/C/S. • Q.: General, you have now testified that you recall going in the area of Potocari on 12 July, and I want to read some of the things that you mentioned to Mr. Ruez in your interview and ask you about that. I would (10)start at line 20 of the English version. "I do declare that not a single soldier of the Drina Corps came to the area of Potocari, nor would General Mladic have allowed that, except for those people of his. • Q.: There was no Drina Corps soldier present in Potocari; is that (15)clear? • A.: No. No, no. • Q.: Only the 65 Protection Regiment soldiers and maybe the 10th Sabotage Detachment as well? • A.: Yes. These were the officers and soldiers from the battalion (20)of the military police," and you go on to explain them. So on the 12 July, we understand that you've said that you were there, Popovic was there, Kosoric was there in the photos. Were there any other Drina Corps soldiers or officers present in Potocari on 12 July, to your knowledge? (25)
• A.: As I said, I stopped at the checkpoint only. I didn't pass
• Q.: If we could now go to page 27 on the -- excuse me, page 46 on the English version and page 27-28 on the B/C/S version of the interview. (10)I'll start at just a few lines from the question at line 9. "Q. Did you have any opportunity, on a personal level, to go and check on your own the refugee situation in Potocari? • A.: No. No, no. The way I went to Viogora was Bratunac. It's an old mine. Sase, Pribicevac, Zeleni Jadar, and Viogora. (15) • Q.: So you never went into Potocari itself to have a look at the situation of the people there, if men were still among them? • A.: No, no, no, absolutely not. One could not have passed after the arrival of General Mladic. • Q.: May I ask, then, how can you be so sure that these separations (20)in Potocari were conducted by the 65th Protection Regiment members, and maybe other of these Main Staff units and not by, let's say, the Bratunac Brigade?
• A.: The Bratunac Brigade wasn't even there; wasn't even in the
area."
(25)Next page:
(5) • Q.: So you are certain and straight on the fact that no Bratunac Brigade members had anything to do in Potocari during the 12th of July and the 13th of July, 1995? • A.: I told you already that those units that were under command of the brigade commanders were certainly not deployed in the area (10)in this way. However, it may have happened that individuals were appointed by General Mladic and Colonel Beara." Okay. First I want to ask you, when you tell Mr. Ruez, on the previous page, that you did not check in on the situation in Potocari, has your recollection been refreshed as a result of the material you've seen, (15)or do you consider this answer meaning that you did not get into Potocari? • A.: I continue to claim that I did not go to Potocari. I only went as far as the checkpoint in Potocari. I was there briefly. I granted an interview there and then I went back and headed towards Pribicevac. (20) • Q.: Where was that checkpoint in relation to the UN base? • A.: I cannot remember now exactly where that checkpoint was. I'm not familiar enough with Potocari nor did I have time to make any visits, not only Potocari, but many other places in the responsibility of the corps. • Q.: How far were -- (25)
• A.: I didn't learn anything in particular that would have impressed
• Q.: How far were you from the area where the refugees were being blocked and assembled in Potocari? • A.: I didn't see a single refugee. That can clearly be seen on the (5)shot when I was giving the interview. I didn't see a single refugee. And that is why I cannot remember where it was exactly. • Q.: Do you have knowledge of members of the Bratunac Brigade being in Potocari on the 12th of July? • A.: I saw and heard this from witnesses during the proceedings, when (10)some were named individually, and I saw someone who is identified here as -- I think his name was Kovacevic. Until then, I had no knowledge as to the presence of the Bratunac Brigade in the Potocari area, either individuals or units. • Q.: How about other members of the Drina Corps? Do you have knowledge (15)of other members of the Drina Corps that we haven't mentioned already being in Potocari on 12 July or 13 July? • A.: I had no knowledge about that. • Q.: And when you stopped the vehicle and got out of the vehicle to give the press interview, as you've described, how far did you walk from (20)your vehicle to give the interview? • A.: I think I didn't walk anywhere because I moved with great difficulty anyway. So I couldn't walk around or spend any length of time there. I stayed there only for as long as the interview lasted, and then I got back into my car and turned back. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I believe it's a break.
--- Recess taken at 2.15 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.29 p.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
If we could proceed with the playing of Exhibit 66, which is the
very brief video of the interview. And prior to playing it, perhaps we
should get the transcript, which is Exhibit 67, of that brief interview.
(10)If we could play the video. And yes, if you could put the transcript on
the ELMO. It's just a one-pager, and General Krstic has the B/C/S of the
transcript. But, obviously, could we play the video. MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we stop? I'm sorry. This video worked the (15)first time. Is there any way to make it work? This obviously was not working. Can we give it one more try and then we'll go on. THE REGISTRAR: The video booth has informed me that they're working on it, so it should take a second. MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps, Mr. McCloskey, if you have another question. No, we have it. We seem to have it. MR. McCLOSKEY: I can ask a couple as we wait. • Q.: General Krstic, who was in the vehicle with you that stopped at this checkpoint? (25)
• A.: My driver, Dalibor Krstic, and the driver Vlado Tosic.
• A.: He had his own vehicle and he went with me to pass through Srebrenica to go to Pribicevac, because throughout that time he was at (5)Pribicevac with me. • Q.: So he was stopped at the same place you were in Potocari, Colonel Kosoric? • A.: Yes. Yes. • Q.: And who was with Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric? (10) • A.: I don't know who was in the car with him, but we saw from the video that behind us was Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. He was standing behind us. • Q.: So do you think Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was travelling in the same vehicle as Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric? (15) • A.: No. No. Each of them had their own vehicle. • Q.: What other vehicles were in your group of vehicles, yours and Kosoric's, that got stopped at the same time, if any? • A.: There was my vehicle, and behind me was Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric. I didn't see Lieutenant Colonel Popovic come there at all. I (20)didn't see him arrive. • Q.: Were there only two vehicles, then, in your group that were stopped?
• A.: Just my vehicle and the vehicle of Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric. I
don't know where the vehicle belonging to Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was,
(25)whether it went behind us at all or not.
THE REGISTRAR: There seems to be a problem with the video, so they're trying to correct it. The video is still jumping, but the sound is okay. That's the best that they could do. (5) MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, let's pass on the jumpy video and perhaps try that tomorrow. And we have a still, Exhibit 58, that we can go with for now. • Q.: Now, General Krstic, can you identify the faces, if you can, in this video? Let's start with the person who's immediately behind you, (10)over your right shoulder. Do you know who that person is? • A.: That's my driver, Dalibor Krstic. • Q.: And I know we don't really get a very good view of the person over your left shoulder. Do you have any recollection or do you know his nose well enough to make an ID? (15) • A.: No. • Q.: And the person farther back. I know this is a blurry picture, but we've seen this video. Is that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic? • A.: He's quite far off, but the appearance does seem to indicate that it is Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. (20) • Q.: And in the video, we notice trucks going by you during the interview, in both directions, I believe. What were the purposes of those big trucks? • A.: I don't know. • Q.: Did you know at the time? (25)
• A.: I didn't pay attention to that at all.
• A.: I just said what General Mladic said to those who attended the meeting. (10) • Q.: When you said "we guarantee," who did you mean? • A.: I've already said. What General Mladic said, I conveyed that; same thing. • Q.: Meaning "We, the VRS"? • A.: The army of Republika Srpska. (15) • Q.: Did you do anything yourself to guarantee the security of the civilian population at the time, either before you made this statement or afterward? • A.: I didn't -- wasn't given that assignment at all. I was given my assignment from General Mladic, and that assignment was Zepa. (20) • Q.: There were also buses in the video. Do you know what the buses were for? • A.: I didn't notice any buses. Perhaps they -- it is quite possible that they passed by or that they arrived at that time. • Q.: What time was this, as best you can recall? (25)
• A.: After the meeting ended. The meeting ended at about 12.00, so it
MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Now, if we could go to Exhibit number 184. JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. The meeting of the 12th of July? (5) • A.: Yes, Your Honour, the 12th of July. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: General, we have, we see, Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric in the back of a -- and we'll show the still of that -- but we see him in the back of the film of the interview with a Bratunac Brigade officer, and since he (10)was -- Kosoric was within your party, do you know, in relation to time, when this Bratunac officer gave the interview that Kosoric is in the back of? • A.: I don't know. • Q.: And did Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric travel down to wherever you (15)were going when you left this area with you? • A.: I ordered him to report to me at Krivaca on the 13th at the forward command post, and he was there. He did not continue on with me to Pribicevac.
• Q.: All right. Getting back to the exhibit that's there, now, this is
(20)a photograph not taken at the time of the events. Mr. Ruez testified that
this is based on his study of the video. This is the general area where
he felt you were standing.
Now, I don't know if you can make anything out of this photograph
or not, but can you tell us, does this photograph help you in identifying
(25)whether or not you were standing between these two arrows that Mr. Ruez
• A.: I don't know. I can't say. I'm not able to say. • Q.: Do you see this blue tinted building in the background behind the two vehicles, with a power pole sticking up behind it? Do you recall that (5)building at all? • A.: I didn't pay attention to the buildings, and I can't remember whether that is that building or some other one. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 769, which is a blow-up of an aerial. And if we could put it on the easel, that would be (10)helpful. It's right here in front of me. Yes, easel first. And if you could place that so the General can get a good look at it, pointing in his direction. And if the camera could zero in on the area around the red arrows. Now, General, on this exhibit, this is a 12 July aerial photograph (15)from the United States, around 1400 hours. And for the record, Mr. Ruez has recently marked with two red arrows the area that his analysis has determined General Krstic to have been in. And for the record --
• Q.: And General Krstic, down in the very right-hand corner of that
(20)photograph, you can see what's been marked as an X. That is the part of
the UN compound, and the entrance of the UN compound is unfortunately off
the photograph, but that is the area of the UN compound, just off the
photograph to the south, what would be the south or below the photograph.
Now, using buses for a scale, by this photograph you're four or
(25)five bus lengths from the crowd of people during this interview. Do you
• A.: I don't know Potocari that well, so I cannot claim that I was there at that spot. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have an objection to make to the form in which the question was asked. When he said that it was four or five bus lengths away, as far as I can see the photograph, I don't think that is a good way of putting it. Perhaps the question could (10)be reformulated. But from my angle of vision, I couldn't say, and therefore I think that the question ought to be reformulated. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I can try to be as clear as possible on this point, but we have the bus yard, the express bus compound (15)in the centre of this photograph, and I think we can see very clearly three buses adjacent to the crowd of people. And on these kind of photographs, a very simple scale is always the best way to go, and I was just using what appears to be buses -- there has been testimony of witnesses that stayed in buses in this area -- as a means to gauge (20)distance. If the witness disagrees, fine, but I was just trying to simplify it. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But you started saying that you were going to be more precise in your questions, so that's what we're asking for. Please try to be more precise. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY:
• A.: One civilian -- I didn't see a single civilian refugee there. I (5)stopped there for a very brief period of time, after which I returned. I didn't even try to notice everything. I was in a hurry. I was on my way to the former -- to the forward command post of Pribicevac, and I've already said that it was my intention to pass through Potocari and to go through Srebrenica to go to Pribicevac. (10) • Q.: Were you able to -- • A.: Why should I contest that? Why should I contest passing through Potocari? I am speaking the truth, that I came there, I was stopped, I gave the interview, I didn't even know that I was going to give it, and then I returned to the forward command post. I took the direction that I (15)spoke about earlier on. I'm not afraid of anything. I'm not afraid of saying that I passed through Potocari if I passed through Potocari, but I did not pass through Potocari. I just stayed there for a very brief period of time. And the statements that I was there on the 12th and the 13th, that really (20)is -- well, it's something that's quite unprecedented. • Q.: Are you contesting Mr. Ruez's location of you between these two arrows on --
• A.: I said I don't know Potocari, especially as this is an aerial
photograph, not even on this photograph here, the building. I didn't
(25)notice anything out of -- anything that I would remember, that would have
• Q.: The white house that has been shown several times in this case was the place where Muslim males were separated to initially. Do you have any recollection of that white house, having seen either it immediately before (5)or after your interview? • A.: I learnt of the white house during the course of these proceedings here, during the trial. There are a lot of white houses in that area. Not only in that area, in others too. • Q.: Did you continue on through Potocari to get to your destination or (10)did you turn around back and go another way? • A.: I turned back and went back to Bratunac and then to Voljevica, and from Voljevica to Sase, and from Sase to Pribicevac. That is the direction I took previously, and not only I took but everybody else took that direction until the other road had been passable, made passable, the (15)route. • Q.: The direction of Bratunac is on the right side of the photograph, and the direction to Potocari is on the left side of the photograph. Now, General, why did you turn around? Why didn't you just go on through the centre of Potocari, on towards Srebrenica? (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. McCloskey, excuse me,
please. I am trying not to intervene, but I feel I have to at this
point. I think that we're going 'round and 'round in circles, because the
General has already explained all this. You keep repeating, and we would
like to tell you -- and you say that on Wednesday you will be ending the
(25)cross-examination. So organise your time well if you wish to do this by
MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Your Honour. It was my understanding that the checkpoint stopped him, but it was not my understanding that it prevented him from going on further, and if I missed that in the record, I (10)apologise. That was my only question, whether or not he was able to go on further or whether he turned around. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. But having made that precision, go ahead with your question and let's hear what the General has to say. I thought he was saying that the people that were there at the (15)checkpoint told him that only if he had an order from General Mladic was anybody allowed to pass. So that gives me the idea that he had no possibility of continuing. But ask the question and we'll hear it in detail, the answer in detail. MR. McCLOSKEY: (20) • Q.: General, was the reason that you turned around and went back towards Bratunac because the soldiers at the checkpoint wouldn't let you go through?
• A.: Precisely so, because they had received orders from General Mladic
not to allow anybody to pass through, and this was the order issued. And
(25)I came to realise that it would not be good to go on further because I had
• Q.: Did you see General Mladic in the area at any time while you were at this checkpoint? • A.: General Mladic stayed behind me. General Mladic stayed behind me. I didn't know where he was going to go, whether to Potocari or to (10)some other place after the meeting in Bratunac ended. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the video, I'm told, is now okay. Perhaps we can play it and then end on that note.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well, yes. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Is the technical booth ready to play the video? MR. McCLOSKEY: It's being played. Apparently, Your Honour, there's no sound. However, I would like to get out of Potocari, and we have the transcript, so if we can just watch this and we'll be ready to (20)exit the town. I think that may be an appropriate place to stop. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Can we play the video, Madam Registrar? THE REGISTRAR: The video booth has informed me that it's ready to go with the sound. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: We can try again with a little sound.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Well, finally we were able to see the video. Can we now take a break, Mr. McCloskey? MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. I'd appreciate that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think that this is high time to adjourn, with all these noises going on. There seems to be something (10)amiss. I think that all the teams seem to be tired. Judge Fouad Riad, perhaps your microphone is better than mine. JUDGE RIAD: General Krstic, if you remember what you were saying, you said, "Nothing will stop us." "Stop us" from what? • A.: Your Honour, I meant checking out the terrain which would have to (15)be done and to group the units with respect to the Zepa assignment. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: We have no further questions for the day. I wish I could say that, Your Honour, for the cross-examination, but we must go (20)on. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. I think I'll have to stop talking because my microphone is not functioning properly. We resume tomorrow morning at 9.20.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.05 p.m., to be
(25)reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day of October, 2000 at 9.20 a.m.
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