 Comments From Christians Iby Mike McClellanFollowing are letters I have received from Christians.  Alan sent the following comments to me on December 27, 2002. Most Christians do not respond a second time. I invited him to respond and waited until January 1, 2003 before posting the following dialogue. I am convinced that many well meaning Christians send comments similar to the ones sent by 'Alan' after having been inspired by words from the pulpit. Unfortunately, they may be unaware that they are being misinformed by their pastors. Because they have not taken the time to study the scriptures on their own, they are at a complete loss to discuss matters further.
ALAN
MIKE
Then you suggest that I may be so discourteous that I would not read your responses. Since I don't know you in the least, it would be unfair for me to come to the conclusions that you are a very angry writer, your sarcasm being fueled by your anger. It would also be unfair to conclude that because you believe I may not read your comments, this may be a tendency which you own and are attempting to project upon others. You do, however, make a strong argument for those conclusions by your opening statements. ALAN
MIKE
You asked if Jesus was resurrected. Your question assumes that Jesus Christ actually existed. I will answer your question further down the page. The only "evidence" I have ever been shown which suggests that Jesus Christ existed, is from the bible. The bible is a self-perpetuating, self-propagating compendium of religious books put together in such a way as to tout Judaism and Jesus Christ. You will be hard pressed to prove that the bible is an accurate, historical document. The books included in it were generally selected by men with agendas. The doctrines set forth by the early church were set forth by men with agendas. The agenda of some of the men was nothing more than to avoid their own execution by agreeing to and voting for those concepts and doctrines which the early church 'fathers' and leaders deemed necessary for their own political survival [e.g. Emperor Constantine and the trinity doctrine]. With regard to Jesus Christ, the only "evidence" is what Christians present from the Bible. While the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, mentions Christ in his "Antiquities" (18:63-64), he never actually saw Jesus Christ - he only 'heard' about him. And even the short comments by Josephus are believed by many biblical scholars to have been inserted into his works as a forgery by another 'church father', possibly Eusebius. If you would like to discuss Josephus' writings further, feel free to write to me about them. In response to your question, "Was Jesus resurrected?", you have the cart before the horse. The questions should be "Did Jesus Christ actually exist?" If he did not exist, your question is moot. If you claim Jesus Christ existed, I would ask you to provide extrabiblical, historical, eyewitness evidence that he existed. With all of the miracles and wondrous deeds he allegedly performed according to the bible, there must be countless books and scrolls written by credible eyewitnesses to his existence. Surely you can name a couple of them. ALAN
You wrote "While we know that a human must have oxygen to live and that the digestive juices in a whale's stomach will deteriorate metal, nevertheless, the bible teaches us that Jonah lived in a whale's belly for three days and survived." The Bible says: "Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." The Bible says nothing about a whale. Also, I have read and heard numerous descriptions of how Jonah must have appeared after 3 days subjected to the digestive juices of the "great fish." Certainly I have no problem accepting that Jonah probably looked somewhat "bleached out" after 3 days in a fish. MIKE
ALAN
The Bible says: Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Old testament. The writings of Isaiah are certainly historical. MIKE
The Masoretic text of Isaiah 7:14 states, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, ha'almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." The author of Matthew 1:22-23 interprets the word "almah" to "parthenos" in the Greek. The Greek word ususally (but not always) mean't virgin. The author had a precedent for this since the Greek Septuagint (known as LXX, a translation of the OT) was used by Greek speaking Jews back then. The Jews of the day considered the Septuagint (especially Isaiah) error ridden. By the middle ages, they had quit using it and later translations of those days stopped using the word "parthenos". The Hebrew text which predated the Septuagint used the word "almah". The word "almah" is used sparingly in the OT and does NOT denote virginity. Proverbs 30:19 uses the word "almah" to describe the way of a man with a maiden. If you read the surrounding context, you will find that the "almah" describes the affair of an adulterous woman. It is NOT the description of a virgin woman. (You can go here if you would like a good explantion of 'almah'.The
Skeptical Review .
Like the rest of the bible, the writings of Isaiah are touted as
"prophetic". The problem is, the prophecies are always explained AFTER THE
FACT.
According to Isaiah 7:14, the virgin would "...call his name Immanuel."
Jesus was not named or called Immanuel by Mary. A failed prophecy.
ALAN
MIKE
Yes, "I and my Father are one" is an extraordinary claim.
Jesus also claimed that anyone with the faith of a mustard seed could say to
a mountain, "Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing
shall be impossible unto you." (Matthew 17:21) Although Jesus allegedly
made the claim, I haven't seen any documentation where it has actually
happened. Nor have I ever heard of anyone to whom "...nothing shall be
impossible".
What you have verified so far is that Jesus made unusual claims. He didn't
back them up.
ALAN
MIKE
ALAN
The Bible says: " If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if
thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his
desire, and thou shalt rule over him." This reference to sin is found in
Genesis 4:7, written at least 1500 years before the Birth of Jesus the
Christ. Sin is mentioned dozens of times in the old Testament. Is this a
test? Of whom?
MIKE
ALAN
By what line of reasoning do you reject the testimonies of men and women
like Blackstone, Locke, Coke and Montesquieu, Pascal, Napoleon, Shakespeare,
Rousseau, William Penn, George Washington, Samuel and John Adams, James
Madison, the signers of the Declaration of Independence, John Marshall, John
Hancock, Daniel Webster, Benjamin Rush, Roger Sherman, William Gladstone,
Benjamin Disraeli, Gallileo, Sir William Hershel, Charles Darwin (Yes,
Darwin), Pasteur, Frederick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, Queen Victoria, Abigail
Adams, Queen Elizabeth I, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Johannes Gutenberg, Sir
Isaac Newton, Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, Michael
Faraday, Albert Einstein, David Farragut, Lord Nelson, Douglas MacArthur,
John Harvard, Elihu Yale, Jedidiah Morse, Noah Webster, William Holmes
McGuffey, Lord Acton , Edmund Burke, Charles Dickens, Simon Greenleaf (a
born again Jewish Believer and the greatest authority on the Rules of Legal
Evidence in western jurisprudence), Alexis DeToqueville, Bach, Beethoven,
Mozart, Handel, etc., etc., etc (I have not scratched the surface in terms
of my "witness list.")
What evidence will you present to contradict the faith of those mentioned
and so many more of the bright lights of history not mentioned?
MIKE
Conversely, if I provide the names of luminaries form the same times who
were *not* Christians and who did *not* believe that Jesus Christ existed,
what does that prove? Is this a contest, Alan? Does the guy with the most
names win? Your attempt at proving the credibility of Christianity by
providing names of believers is puerile and ludicrous.
And if I provide the names of several dozen famous men in an Islamic nation
who testify to their belief in Islam and the deity of Allah, by the
reasoning you have presented, their claims are just as valid as yours.
ALAN
MIKE
ALAN
MIKE
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the
first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."
Here is John Adams who you claim, "...left us [his] personal, written
testimony of [his] faith in Jesus Christ and His Word, the Bible':
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion."
Here is James Madison who you claim, "...left us [his] personal, written
testimony of [his] faith in Jesus Christ and His Word, the Bible':
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."
And here is Thomas Paine who you claim, "...left us [his] personal, written
testimony of [his] faith in Jesus Christ and His Word, the Bible:
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."
"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God
against the evils of the Bible."
"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and
you will have sins in abundance."
All statements above from
I will be glad to hear any further comments you have, Alan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I *will* be posting this letter to a website shortly. I'll let you know
which site. I intend to hold it up until I know whether or not you'll be
replying
Mike McClellan
From M. Cage:
"You were born again for 20 years? And now you are not? You were a
caterpillar who became a butterfly, and then you went back to being a
caterpillar again? Impossible."
Mike's Comment:
Of course you would have to say it is impossible. You have no choice in the
matter. You must practice absolute and complete denial. Because to admit
that anyone can de-convert would mean to admit that it is quite possibly not
genuine in the first place.
Incidentally, your analogy is flawed.
As a caterpillar, I was a born again Christian. The metamorphosis came
as I began to realize that born againism is nothing more than a man made
invention and belief system.
When I left the born again cocoon, I left the prison of born againism
behind. I emerged as an enlightened and free being with a capacity for
spiritual growth.
The caterpillar could not understand any of that.
The following is an exchange Between "Bob" and I in July, 2001. He has promised to send me a
reply.
My past
experience is that Christians often don't respond a second
time after possibly having spent all of their knowledge on their initial comments.
(Note: Bob never responded)
BOB:
MIKE
BOB
MIKE
I would ask you to define your perception of "Jews" for me so I'll understand your definition better. All Jews do not, of course, hate Jesus. Neither do all Jews say Jesus lived or performed miracles. So you've begun your comments with two false assumptions which cause me to question your credibility and knowledge.
BOB
MIKE
BOB
MIKE
I should mention at this point that "go to the library and look it up" or "read your history books" or similar comments is not documentation but rather an attempt to avoid providing documentation/proof for your claims.
BOB
MIKE
BOB
MIKE
I'm, presently reading a book, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent. Baigent claims, with documentation, that Christ did not die but that his living body was taken away by his followers and that Christ went on to live and even marry and have children in Europe. Interesting information.
BOB
MIKE
After stereotyping once again, you call for open mindedness. Your statement is an excellent example of a contradiction in terms.
BOB
MIKE
BOB
MIKE
I would appreciate having your definition of "open minded" and how one goes about searching for truth.
My guess is that you've qualified your intent to answer my questions in order to avoid having to answer
questions which may evoke answers with which you don't agree or are unable to harmonize with the Bible.
I'm looking forward to your response!
Subject: You better think more on this Subject
SUSAN
MIKE
SUSAN
MIKE
SUSAN
MIKE
SUSAN
MIKE
SUSAN
MIKE
Your God of love slaughters infants, children, adults and the elderly. He also advocated and
caused the abortion of living fetuses which he said he would dash to the ground. His generals
executed little boys who were prisoners of war yet took their virgin sisters and used them sexually as they
saw fit. Biblegod behaves much as a spoiled rotten five year old who doesn't get her way
and uses temper tantrums to gain her ends.
SUSAN
MIKE
I would ask you, Susan, to disprove what I have written with regard to Jesus' return. Paul felt
such an urgency that he urged believers not to marry and not to accumulate belongings. Jesus told
his disciples he would be back before all of them died. They all died. He didn't return.
SUSAN
MIKE
As with many other Christian doctrines and practices, the Trinity concept was borrowed from Mithraism.
SUSAN
MIKE
SUSAN
Mike
The entire thrust of my website is not to take anyone away from a belief in which s/he is
comfortable but rather to be supportive to those who have walked away from Christianity, are in
the process or leaving or who are considering leaving. I also moderate an email support group for
the same folks who want out. If you're comfortable spiritually with your beliefs then that's where
you need to be. I have no need to convince you otherwise.
BRIAN
MIKE
Brian:
MIKE
BRIAN
MIKE
BRIAN
MIKE
BRIAN
MIKE
BRIAN
Well I have some more to disprove you with but I'am not going to waste my time, next
time try to figure something out a little more belivable than these questions, there just
to easy,
MIKE
BRIAN
oh ya your the head of AAA?
MIKE
BTW - check the date on your computer. The year is coming up as 2001
on your Email.
Subject: Study More
It is evident that you are confused about some biblical truths. You may need to go back to the
original language before making your proclamations as stone fact. You are a bit off course on your
interpretation.
Furthermore, 2 Peter 3: 3, 4 says, "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days
scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since
the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
Jesus has not broken any promises. He will return as he promised. You have some
misinterpretations that you are holding to as fact. 2 Peter 3: 5 begins by saying, "For this they
willingly are ignorant of..."
Read 2 peter chapter 3. You will find that the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some
men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all
should come to repentance.
Also, if you look at the events that were necessary for Christ's return, it would be clear to you that
they had not yet happened when the scriptures were concluded. As of now, I cannot find one
prophesy that needs to be fulfilled before his return, outside of the completion of the age of the
Gentile.
If you view Christ as a breaker of promises, then I am sorry to say, you will have your part in the
lake of fire. Be sure about what you are denouncing before you denounce it.
Subject: you are totaly lost
AR
That sounds like you Mr. McClellan and many like you. The
bible
is the most accurate and up to date ever revealed to man because it is the
WORD
OF THE LIVING GOD. The bible warns us that in the end times many would, "
twist
the scriptures to their OWN DESTRUCTION", (2 Pet 3:16). I believe you need to
trust in Christ as your saviour. I believe in the infallible, inerrant, and
authority of the
word of God. In which you will be judged by someday Mr. McClellan. And that's
why you can call me a FUNDAMENTALIST.
You have a problem, and only Christ
can help you. Pastor August Rosado. P.S. I would love to debate you on the end
times and the rapture of the church.
ADDENDUM:
Subject: A Poor Soul
AR
You add fire to my faith as a born again bible believing Christian. ..Why?
Jesus said
in Matt 16:18: And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this
Rock( J-
esus) I will build MY CHURCH, and the GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL
AGAINST IT. For 2,000 years the church of Jesus Christ has been under attack,
and she is still here(not for long) PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
You can go on attacking, but well did Jesus say about you and others like
you, "
But this is your hour, and the power of darkness" ( Lk 22:53). Mr. McClellan,
God
has a message for you. He loves you, and sent his son Jesus to die for you.
Open
your heart to him, and he will take the hatred, the hurt, and the anger away.
And
change your life.
I don't hate you, but love you with the love of Jesus.
SARA
I was innundated with the "importance of
church attendance" and the "eternal consequences of
disobeying God". No wonder I felt guilty and miserable
about religion-- I was bullied into believing that
thinking for myself would send me to a fiery Hell. I
have, at the present, found a warm and wonderful
community in Deism and it makes much more sense to me
than my Southern Baptist upbringing has.
I appreciate
sites like yours because they let me know I am not
alone.
MIKE (RESPONSE)
The thrust of the site is to be supportive to folks
who
have left or are in the process of leaving born
again
fundamentalist Christianity. Its a difficult road
to walk
alone!
BKS
He probably doesn't want you to contact your
feminine side and explore an intimate relationship with another man. The
Bible probably even made those that rob, murder and molest look like
bad
people.
Face it a GOD like that just doesn't want people to think for
themselves, or experience things for themselves.
What could HE probably think He is protecting people from?
The idea, not wanting you to get aids, clap, gonorrhea, syphilis or some
girl
pregnant out of wedlock. To think HE tried to keep you from alcoholism
or
drug addiction so you wouldn't wreck your life, marriage, or family. Hey,
if
you get mad or fed up it is your right to just go out and kill someone,
you
might even rape them first if you want, right?
I mean if your going to
go to
prison or get the death penalty you may as well go for the gusto.
Just think of it, all of the fun GOD has kept you from and HE even
used you
to keep others from having all that fun, sure there are some
consequences to
suffer, but if it feels good do it.
I hope you can get through this message and before you respond, sleep
on it,
OK?
You feel free to lead your life the way you see fit, and you, and all
those
you lead can suffer the consequences of your mistakes.
You are trusting you with answers of life and eternity, you are
encouraging
others to trust you for the answers of life and eternity, and you have
already made countless mistakes and been wrong more times than you
can
imagine, but you are smarter than GOD that sees the big picture.
If you are wrong about the Bible and you are wrong about GOD and you
are
wrong about heaven and hell, then you will probably be wrong about
Salvation
in Jesus Christ.
It will be by your own will, not GOD's will that there will be hell to pay
and an eternity to remember those who suffer because of you, maybe
even those
you love.
If the Bible is not true, and if there is no GOD, then still no man, no
family, no government, and no nation could find a better book to aid
them in
a joyful, peaceful and prospering life. No book of law can compare, no
book
of parenting can compare, no book of charity can compare and no book
of love
can compare.
With no Heaven and with no GOD mankind would still be better off living
according to the Bible than in their own footsteps or even yours.
I know what it is to live in your footsteps and my life still bares the
scars.
If you are not saved, then all of your efforts for GOD were exhausted
in your
own might. You exhausted yourself doing good for GOD and now you
serve a new
fresh desire, a new master, but with the same old story.
You are burnt out on the Bible, burnt out on GOD and now you are living
in
the power of human reason. The next time you read the newspaper you
will see
the results of human reason.
I would rather be wrong believing the Bible, than wrong not believing
it.
GOD asks nothing of us that is not for our own good, physical or
spiritual.
NO PAIN, NO GAIN ! ! !
I am not as sorry for you as I am for those you might influence.
Are you trying to face or conquer a deep down hurt by blaming GOD?
That would
be nothing new.
MIKE (RESPONSE)
Hello BK
If I understand your comments, anyone who doesn't hold your beliefs as truth:
All of the above sound like stories right out of the Bible.
It has become popular among fundamentalist Christians to
impute immoral and inappropriate values and acts to anyone who
fails to embrace their convoluted belief system. It may
surprise you to know that non-Christians also practice
morality and obey the laws of the land.
After I was born again and became involved in fundamentalist
Christianity, I no longer had to think for myself. The Bible
dictated the life I was required to live as interpreted by
the other fundamentalists who didn't waste anytime "helping"
me to understand the Bible's true meanings.
You state that I'm trusting myself to find the answers to life
and eternity and that I'm making mistakes. Would you
define the questions and the mistakes I've made so we'll
both know what you're talking about.
If you read my page on the atrocities Biblegod committed in
the old testament, you'll understand why I don't agree with
you that the Bible is the literature we should look to, to
enjoy peace, prosperity.
If you read Leviticus, you'll understand why I don't agree
that it is the perfect book from which to learn law. The
last time I burned the required bull on my altar,
the neighbors complained about the stench , the pools of
blood and the flies, and my cruelty to the
animal when I sliced his throat while he was conscious.
The following is an excerpt from a letter written
by "Strike" whose website can be found at
https://www.angelfire.com/on2/strike
The Bible says that God changes his mind - in which case
'he' cannot be trusted and his assurances/promises
cannot be relied upon.
To sum up, , the Bible depicts a deity who is unstable and erratic:-
God is responsible for confusion - Isa 45:7 (Contradicted
by 1 Cor 14:33). God himself lies and is responsible for
lies/deliberate deceit- 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron 18:22,
2 Thess 2:11 (Contradicted by Num 23:19, Titus 1:2).
God 'repents', i.e., regrets an action/changes his mind/
acknowledges that he has made an error - Gen 6:6-7,
Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16, 1 Chron 21:15,
Jer 18:8,10, 26:3,13,19, 42:10, Joel 2:13, Amos 7:3,
Jonah 3:10 (Contradicted by Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29).
Its unfortunate that you have accepted the Bible as the
word of any God when it is such a contradictory, errant and evil
speaking book. But my guess is you're where you need to
be right now spiritually. Its always easier to accept a
prescription for spiritual beliefs written and promoted by
someone else than it is to explore and seek truth actively
on your own.
Finally, why is it that Christians so often attribute leaving
Christianity to a "deep hurt"? I enjoyed being a Christian and
except for the usual disagreements we all have in life, there
was no hurt inflicted or received. Its simply a matter of
realizing that the Bible is no more the word of God than is
what I've written here and on my website.
On the other hand, your letter conveys anger, sarcasm and
frustration. Why?
DBVC
god forgive you for you know not what you say.
GOD BLESS YOU AND SAVE YOUR SOUL.
YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LORD........ HE IS A STRANGER TO YOU.
GIVE YOURSELF UP TO JESUS AND THEN YOU WILL MEET HIM.
DO NOT SPEAK ABOUT SOMEONE YOU DO NOT KNOW.
MIKE (RESPONSE)
I can't count how many times it has been suggested to me by
born-again
Christians that I was never saved. At the time I was
'saved', I was
watching Billy Graham on TV. At that time I realized I was a
sinner. I asked
god for forgiveness and I asked Jesus to come into my heart
and life and to
cleanse me from my sins. I asked god, in Jesus name, to make
me a new creature
in him. I asked him to lead me and guide me in my new life
and walk. I asked all of these things with a sincere and
contrite heart.
If, after that, I still hadn't received salvation, then the
bible lied. biblegod doesn't answer prayer as promised in the
bible and the TV set was the only one who heard my sinners
prayer.
As I wrote in my website, the more I studied the bible, the
more contradictions,
errors and inconsistencies became manifest to me. I
questioned how the word of
an omniscient, omnipotent, all pervasive god could leave an
imperfect 'book' by
which man would be expected to live his life. The extreme
confusion caused by
the bible is evidenced by the hundreds of different
denominations which now
exist. That is not to mention all of the murders and wars
attributed to the god
of the bible. Did god deny his 'truth' to all of these
people who have diligently
searched his alleged word, seeking spiritual truth(s)?
Your allegation that I don't know god is really the only
explanation you can come up with to explain why a born-again
believer would leave the fold once "saved".
Your bible tells you not to judge others but you have chosen
to cast that command aside and judge me by the standards of
your own personal religious belief system. I rather imagine
you think your belief system is completely valid to the
exclusion of all other beliefs with which you don't agree.
I suppose I just wanted to let you know that what you are doing is evil
and I have found that most of the time, when someone is SO obsessed with
proving a Christian wrong and they spend all their time and energy
trying to disprove it- they are actually seeking and seeking hard. I
pray for you- that you will eventually take this site off the web.
By the way, God loves us all- just because someone has a typo or
misspells something, doesn't mean a thing- God loves all types - from
the most educated to the babies....
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