A Tunnels and Trolls® play-by-post adventure run by khara_khang
Before Hilda changed to Cambrea, the both of you were monsters. The more negative a monster's charisma, the more attractive it is to other monsters. Just my two cents on the subject. <thinks Taran forgets his Orcish heritage sometimes> As Domina once thought, the Dracons are the most un-Orcish Orcs she's ever met. In fact, she wondered whether or not they were raised by a tribe of Elves or Fairies.
And my pennies....
While in general, yes, but they are different species. Taran could well have been impressed by her imposing presence that her Charisma implies (he seemed to be, acting pretty intimidated around her), but that doesn't necessarily carry over to feelings of sexual attraction. Griffons and Werebears (in lycanthrope form) might also be astoundingly charismatic, but that doesn't necessarily mean an irredeemably evil Cthulhoid monster [e.g., Glarghj'naslk'ncdl'n from Goblin Lake, Part Deux --ed.] would want to sleep with 'em.
Before Hilda changed to Cambrea, the both of you were monsters. The more negative a monster's charisma, the more attractive it is to other monsters.
So in other words, it was perfectly reasonable that Taran wasn't completely grossed out by Hilda, since they were both monsters and both had negative Charisma. Is that what you're saying? If so, that's sort of why I figured Taran wouldn't be completely repulsed, and would offer her a kiss under duress. He figured what the heck. Yeah she's a pile of swamp slime on legs, but hey, to an Orc, that's not so bad compared to some pale-skinned hu-manns with pimples. Taran wasn't ga-ga over Hilda, but since she seemed pretty adamant, he figured maybe one little kiss would appease her and get her off his case. Of course it didn't work out that way....
Just my two cents on the subject. <thinks Taran forgets his Orcish heritage sometimes>
Yes, Taran's writer forgets Taran's Orcish heritage sometimes, but in this instance, Taran was being most Orcish, I thought. I assume this last comment was sarcastic, as folks tend to say that about Taran, but in this case, it isn't accurate. At least up until the part where the Barry White music started playing.
Taran could well have been impressed by her imposing presence that her Charisma implies (he seemed to be, acting pretty intimidated around her), but that doesn't necessarily carry over to feelings of sexual attraction.
Bingo. Taran was definitely not attracted to Hilda but was intimidated by the whole situation and Hilda's overpowering of him as well. Fifth edition, 2.4.1 says:
Charisma for monsters is negative. This does not mean a dragon with a CHR of -50 is ugly, only that his way of looking at things isn't at all the same as a human being's. He is just as 'beautiful' or impressive as a human with a CHR of +50. 'Ugly' or 'unimpressive' depend on how close to 0 a being's charisma is.
Taran's CHA is -15. Hilda's, I'm guessing, was much more close to 0 since she at least seemed ugly from her description and picture. Or maybe it was -30 or something impressive and intimidating. But suddenly Cambrea enters the scene. Maybe she's at 15, or more, from her mannerisms as an Elf and well, her picture! But since Taran's been hanging out with hu-manns and the gentler kindreds for some time now, his "perspective" might not be so dissimilar after all.
Now, Taran has already demonstrated enjoyment in displaying his finely toned form, naked or clothed, to several females in past adventures. I think of Taran less as a mindless must-eat-brains-and-steal-magic-rings-from-hobbits kind of Orc and more of a brute with an admittedly human sense of honor, loyalty, and intelligence. But as for whether he is attracted to Cambrea....
Who knows?! In fact, I think Ken's getting rid of negative Charisma in 6th Edition anyway, so by the time we figure all this out, it won't matter. :)
P.S. I'm not quite ready to post in character for Taran. Besides, can't we let the poor Orc have a moment's peace without his writer putting debatable thoughts into his head? :)
Let's all observe a moment of peace for Taran.
OK, now that that's over with....
I think khara's restatement of Domina's characterization of Taran (which by the way originally included both Dracon brothers), and his jab at Taran forgetting his heritage may have been premature in this case, as Taran hasn't yet responded in character to Cambrea. Perhaps it was a preemptive jab? A warning to stay in character?
In Khara's defense, Taran's track record with the Elven maiden is far from Orcish. In the past adventure "Lizardmen in Red Water Bay," Hilda's line about Taran's tongue lapping up swamp water was originally voiced by Domina, who was disgusted at Taran's un-Orcish response to Cambrea, who was only wearing mud at the time. No matter what your take on negative charisma, I posit that your everyday Orc would most likely find Hilda more approachable than Cambrea, no matter what the latter's state of dress (or undress).
Nevertheless, in Taran's defense, I think that we can all agree that Taran is not your typical Orc, so perhaps he shoudn't be held to the usual high Orcish standards! ;)
Crikey, how's that for a non-opinion? Can you tell that I just read Philip K. Dick's "The Mold Of Yancy"?
No, but I actually just finished its lesser known sequel, "The Fungus of Canterbury" and found it rather entertaining. ;)
Sorry, I've been wanting to write that (or something close to it) ever since I first started reading "Phil and Dixie."
In fact, I think Ken's getting rid of negative Charisma in 6th Edition anyway, so by the time we figure all this out, it won't matter. :)
I'd prefer it. Never really liked negative charisma anyway.
Perhaps it was a preemptive jab? A warning to stay in character?
But what if Taran's characterization has been of an out-of-character Orc?
In Khara's defense, Taran's track record with the Elven maiden is far from Orcish.
Then this would be a defense of Taran, not Khara. Taran has established he has unusual fetishes for an Orc.
Nevertheless, in Taran's defense, I think that we can all agree that Taran is not your typical Orc, so perhaps he shoudn't be held to the usual high Orcish standards! ;)
Probably not.
My response was really less about Taran and more about khara's "both of you were monsters. The more negative a monster's charisma, the more attractive it is to other monsters," and that, while true both monster types have negative charisma, that shouldn't supercede the fact that they are of different species/races/what-have-you, which would (at least in my mind) be a more determining factor to attraction, and that the charisma would manifest itself differently.
Let's say Triple M were to run into a Dwarf with an 80 charisma, or a human male with 100 charisma. No doubt he'd be quite impressed and affected by their personal magnetism, obvious leadership traits, friendliness, etc---but in neither case would he have a desire to sleep with either of them; he simply has no bent in that direction. They might be quite beautiful, handsome, etc., but that would have little effect if he's not wired for that in the first place. As such, I thought Taran reacted well, both in character and within the spirit of the rules.
I'm not trying to imply Khara was wrong to make that reminder and admonishment; he reviewed the effects of negative charisma and (jokingly I thought) revisited past comments on Taran's behavior. He didn't come out and demand love for Hilda; he just reminded the player what kind of character he is running. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Attraction is a touchy subject---unless some magic or some other unusual happenstance is involved---and I think the best a GM can do is to describe the other individual, maybe state a few involuntary reactions ("your heart races a bit and you get sweaty palms talking to beautiful Miss Demeanor") and hope for the best, but the player will be deciding if this is something he will pursue or not (such as Olvarin's recent interest in Chereva). And with a different species, attraction shouldn't be expected. (Else there'd be a lot more crossbreeds of all types popping up. Dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!)
So if Shipppy [sic] is attracted to every female with positive charisma, that's great for him. If Taran is also attracted to females with positive charisma, also fine. If Olvarin likes Centaurs, terrific. If the Tsexy Tsathogua [i.e., the ever-irredeemably evil Glarghj'naslk'ncdl'n from Goblin Lake, Part Deux --ed.] is asexual, fine. If Krandor [of Goblin Lake and Dangerous Creations fame --ed.] only likes sweaty, toothless gnomish men with charismas of under 5, hey, that's just him. It takes all kinds.
I actually just finished its lesser known sequel, "The Fungus of Canterbury" and found it rather entertaining. ;)
I know the Fungi from Yuggoth. Ia Ia!
All this talk of Taran staying in character or straying out of character forgets one thing: regardless of Taran's attraction for Cambrea, Cambrea is the one that jumped him. All he did was offer a kiss to a swamp monster to try to pacify her. He certainly wasn't looking for swamp love from Hilda, but would he turn down someone obviously more attractive?
Perhaps this is not so much a discussion of [in]consistent character as it is a discussion of Taran's standards for physical attraction. If Taran's standards in this regard are overtly un-Orcish as history would suggest, then there is no doubt in my mind that Taran has been played entirely consistently in his erotic interlude: he was reluctant with Hilda, but had no qualms with Cambrea.
All this talk of Taran staying in character or straying out of character forgets one thing: regardless of Taran's attraction for Cambrea, Cambrea is the one that jumped him.
Good point. What's her standard for attraction? She clearly wasn't put off by Taran's monster status.
All he did was offer a kiss to a swamp monster to try to pacify her. He certainly wasn't looking for swamp love from Hilda, but would he turn down someone obviously more attractive?
This was also part of the discussion: whether Taran would find her obviously more attractive or not. As you pointed out, it kinda works both ways. As stated, I'm of a mind that that charisma is immaterial towards whether or not Taran (or Cambrea) finds someone attractive.
Perhaps this is not so much a discussion of [in]consistent character as it is a discussion of Taran's standards for physical attraction. If Taran's standards in this regard are overtly un-Orcish as history would suggest, then there is no doubt in my mind that Taran has been played entirely consistently in his erotic interlude: he was reluctant with Hilda, but had no qualms with Cambrea.
Agreed.
"You [Jax] are the heavy hitter...."
Good thing Taran isn't around, or his feelings might be hurt.
How so? Taran gets to be the "handsome" Orc after all (though "handsome" does change meaning when you cross Charsima 0). ;)
I've always wondered why it was that the handsome one is the "SniperOrc," while the less-comely one gets right in your face....
Simple. Taran's full of himself (as is quite obvious by now), so after he started referring to himself as the good-looking brother, and his brother as the ever-stinkin' brother, it sort of caught on. It's just a coincidence that he traditionally prefers ranged weapons.
Well, that's a disappointment. And here I was hoping for some magnificent intertwined backstory explaining all the nuances in the naming and weapons. ;)
Ask and you shall receive. When Taran and Jax were mere Orclings, they often practiced their swordplay---on each other. One day Jax cut off Taran's finger, quite by accident. Of course, this made wielding a sword a little painful, and a little harder, so Taran decided, hey, it's a good time to take up the crossbow. His missing finger was established in a flashback in his very first in-character post in KStA's "Agents" adventure, but he got his finger back later when he crawled into a healing pool.
I say crawled, because at the time, Taran had been turned into a lizard. However, as he did not fully submerge himself, when he awoke from his water nap, he had been restored to Orcish form, except for his head. This is why he has a penchant for Lizardmen and even understanding a bit of Lizardspeak, as he spent time as both.
Now he does carry his Uncle Dracon's bastard sword, which originally some might have thought was a rip-off of the D&D weapon, but since T&T does not have a sword specifically named as such, one wonders why he calls it his Uncle Dracon's bastard sword. Maybe his Uncle Dracon is a bastard, and Taran doesn't have fond memories of him, so when he refers to him, it's more like: "Uncle Dracon's (that bastard!) sword." Or, maybe no one knows who forged the sword: having no known maker, the sword itself is a bastard. Or, maybe he's actually a D&D Orc mystically transplanted into a world that doesn't know what Bastard Swords are.
Is that intertwined, complicated and magnificent enough for you? "Us Orcs ayme two pleese, you kno!"
Eickeric, you expect nuance from an Orc? ;)
Are you implying that there should be a correlation between comeliness and combat style? I.e., that a character's charisma affects his/her own interactions with others? E.g., that Jax, having CHR -13 should be less confrontational than Taran at CHR -15?
This is an interesting concept. I've always assumed that a character's charisma only affects others' interactions with that character. This complicates the equation somewhat.
Another complication is that in dealing with negative charisma (no matter how obsolete it may soon be), we probably need to keep in mind where the interacting characters' charismas lie. Would Taran's personality vis-a-vis Jax's have a greater or less relative impact on an (N)PC with positive charisma? Would such an (N)PC be more likely to agree with Taran's claim of being the "handsome" brother? Now how about an (N)PC with negative charisma? Note that we're not talking about sexual attraction here; rather it's a more neutral concept of "impression."
The Charisma delta is only 2 points between the Dracon brothers, so any relative difference in reaction would likely be minute. But the general equation involving Charisma that would/should at least outline NPC interactions in a game with mixed monster and "good" kindred PCs still remains fuzzy to me.
I say crawled, because at the time, Taran had been turned into a lizard. However, as he did not fully submerge himself, when he awoke from his water nap, he had been restored to Orcish form, except for his head.
I've seen vignettes recalling this.
Since T&T does not have a sword specifically named as such, one wonders why [Taran] calls it his Uncle Dracon's bastard sword.
Now this I was around for. I think it was in the old BFT club that it came up.
Or, maybe [Taran]'s actually a D&D Orc mystically transplanted into a world that doesn't know what Bastard Swords are.
I believe it was eventually decided the player was thinking of the last one when he was posting his equipment.
Is that intertwined, complicated and magnificent enough for you? "Us Orcs ayme two pleese, you kno!"
Thanks, Blodwydd [a reference to the less-than-eloquent Warrioress of Goblin Lake, Part Deux --ed.].
Eickeric, you expect nuance from an Orc? ;)
Good point. I'm happy just not getting attacked by 'em anymore.
Good ol' Fifernickle---how come swine like Martos [sic] and Grutos [sic], or whatever they're called keep showing up, but we've never been graced with the reappearance of a kewl NPC?
I've always wondered why it was that the handsome one is the "SniperOrc," while the less-comely one gets right in your face....
Are you implying that there should be a correlation between comeliness and combat style?
Nope, not at all, since I've consistently maintained that appearance and charisma are separate items.
If I wanted to answer my own rhetorical question, I'd say there are clear reasons a handsome guy would use a missile weapon. For one, he's got a lot more to lose than an ugly person in a fight. It's the same concept with driving: give way to the person with the biggest vehicle, then the ugliest vehicle, as he's less likely to care if there's an accident.
[Are you implying] that a character's charisma affects his/her own interactions with others? E.g., that Jax, having CHR -13 should be less confrontational than Taran at CHR -15? This is an interesting concept. I've always assumed that a character's charisma only affects others' interactions with that character.
Now this I could see, but no: I wouldn't say this is the case. Certainly someone with a higher charisma would logically be easier to get along with, which implies less confrontation, but it only implies it. It's not a requirement. They could simply be very skilled at convincing others to continually support them. Hitler is a fine example of someone I'd consider highly charismatic and definitely confrontational.
Another complication is that in dealing with negative charisma (no matter how obsolete it may soon be), we probably need to keep in mind where the interacting characters' charismas lie. Would Taran's personality vis-a-vis Jax's have a greater or less relative impact on an (N)PC with positive charisma?
I'd say Taran would have a greater relative impact, by virtue he has the higher score. That doesn't necessarily equate to a positive impact though. Taran would have the greater chance to intimidate or cow someone into doing something with his higher absolute value negative charisma, while Jax would have a better chance (albeit a lesser one) of getting a result though friendly persuasion since he's closer to a positive charisma. When the negative charisma stat is dropped, then I'll revise this thinking.
Would such an (N)PC be more likely to agree with Taran's claim of being the "handsome" brother?
Yes, if Taran was nearby and glaring. Otherwise, it would depend on who actually is handsomer (still presuming charisma and appearance are separate). The NPC would probably conclude (privately) that Jax is the "nicer" brother, but not by much---he still presents himself in a foreign (to the positive charisma guy) way since Jax has negative charisma.
Now how about an (N)PC with negative charisma? Note that we're not talking about sexual attraction here; rather it's a more neutral concept of "impression."
I'd say this person would be more impressed by Taran.
The Charisma delta is only 2 points between the Dracon brothers, so any relative difference in reaction would likely be minute.
Agreed.
But the general equation involving Charisma that would/should at least outline NPC interactions in a game with mixed monster and "good" kindred PCs still remains fuzzy to me.
Well, you've got an idea of how I handle it:
At least, that's what I do in theory. In practice, I just tend to ignore the sign of the charisma score and play it by ear based on the score's absolute value and what the player says they're doing to determine results.
Normally I don't follow what Eric is talking about (like most members), as I did this time when he mentioned Fifernickle, so I did a quick Yahoo! search and this is what turned up. Let's just say I was truly amazed:
"It beats me relying on good looks and sheer personality alone to get through this. Thanks. I now officially like you more than Fifernickle the Orc."
[Jax had just given Jay a Lerotra'hh favor coin just before his date with the Death Goddess. --ed.]
Normally I don't follow what Eric is talking about (like most members)...
I rarely can make any sense out of 'em upon a rereading either.
I did a quick Yahoo! search and this is what turned up.
You get the same results in Google. And I thought they blocked out questionable sites.
Good ol' Fif....
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