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In
an interview with an Italian journalist shortly after the formation of the
Irish Republican Socialist Party, Seamus Costello defined the party's aims and
objectives with his customary clarity and precision.
Q.
What does your party stand for?
We
are a revolutionary socialist party and our objective is to create a
revolutionary socialist state in Ireland. Part of the struggle for a socialist
state entails resolving the national liberation struggle and ending British
imperialist intervention, whether military intervention, political
intervention or control of aspects of the economy. This is the basic position
of the party. We see the ending of British imperialist intervention in Ireland
as an essential pre-requisite for the development of the class struggle
between left and right in this country. The class forces in Ireland have never
developed properly in the last 50 years basically because of the imperialist
intervention and because of the fact that the national struggle remains
incomplete.
Q.
Could you tell us something about the structure of the six-county state and
its relation to the non-development of the class struggle in Ireland,
especially as regards the position of the Protestant working class?
Class
politics have never really developed in the six counties because of the nature
of the state. The unionist majority, or the loyalist majority, have always
enjoyed some marginal privileges. Basically because of their loyalty to
Britain, and because they wanted to maintain the constitutional status quo,
they have been rewarded with the better jobs, better housing, and up to recent
years they had advantages in voting. The organizations traditionally used to
maintain this loyalty are the Unionist Party and the Orange Order. They
have always crossed class divisions, and always had a large following
of working class people. They've had the petty bourgeoisie, they've had
the support of the native capitalist class. For these reasons the class
struggle has never really developed in the North, and we feel that it cannot
develop because of the basic nature of the state, because of the sectarian
nature of the state, and because of the manipulation of the sectarian
divisions by the imperialists, who deliberately created these divisions in the
first place, and subsequently fostered them.
Q.
Is there any situation anywhere in the world with which you could compare the
situation in Northern Ireland?
I
can't think of any example, which is parallel in every respect. There may be
some general examples. An example perhaps, although not identical but with
certain comparisons, would be the French in Algeria. They saw their allegiance
to France as a means of preserving their privileged status. There fore
they fought to maintain French domination in Algeria. There are some
parallels, but in my opinion none of them is essentially identical.
Q.
About the working class in the Republic, its level of consciousness both in an
anti-imperialist sense and in a socialist sense?
In
the anti-imperialist sense its level of consciousness is, I think, pretty well
developed for historical reasons. Perhaps you could say it is instinctive
rather than theoretical. It is something people have inherited for hundreds of
years, and in times of crisis it becomes very evident. This sentiment, or
anti-imperialist opinion, is there, and we've had many examples of it in the
last five ore six years. After Bloody Sunday when 13 people were killed in
Derry by the British army, something like half a million people demonstrated
in Dublin. Factories and shops closed and the British embassy was burned.
There were 100,000 to 150,000 there the day it was burned. These
demonstrations are a manifestation of historic anti-imperialist
sentiment or opinion. The major political party here, Fianna Fail, have
traditionally got approximately 50% of the votes in every election.
Their original motivation was anti-imperialist, or they presented themselves
as an anti-imperialist party, and for this reason they gained popular
support and still retain that support. The development of class
politics is a much different question. Class politics have never really
developed in this part of Ireland. The working class are organized in the
trade union movement. In fact they are very well organized and better
than most European countries in terms of organizational structure and
numbers - even in terms of militancy. But there is little or not ideological
direction in the trade union movement. Although the trade union
movement is officially affiliated to the Labour Party, most trade unionists
probably vote for the Fianna Fail party, which represents native capitalism.
There is an obvious contradiction there. They are just organized to
gain better conditions of work on a day-to-day basis, and to fight for wage
increases. But they don't have a perspective for undermining the capitalist
system as such. Working class socialist politics are confined to the smaller
parties on the left, who represent a section of working class opinion which,
unfortunately, is a minority section of working class opinion. One of
the principal reasons for lack of development of working class or socialist
politics is the existence of partition - the fact that the British are still
within the country. In the mind of most people this has been the main
question in Irish politics for 50 years. The main question which must be
resolved is the struggle against imperialism, so that the workers can think in
terms of confronting the native capitalist class. That is the principal
reason why we want to end imperialist intervention in the country. We want to
see a natural political situation develop, with the confrontation which
you normally expect between left and right, and in this way to bring the Irish
working class into control of the resources and the wealth of the country.
Q.
How long do you think it would take, if partition were ended, to bring the
Unionist working class in the North to a militant socialist position? And what
is necessary for such a development apart from ending partition and destroying
the six-county state?
Historically,
some sections of Unionist working class in the North have been fairly militant
within the framework of the six-county state. They have been militant
on some class issues. If the British presence in the country were ended, and
if the loyalist working class in the North were convinced that it was ended
and finished for ever, we feel that the natural tendency on their part would
be to think in terms of class politics within this island. In some ways they
have different traditions. They perhaps would have a different
definition of what they call civil and religious liberties. They would want
those civil and religious liberties protected, and they are entitled to have
them protected. They are entitled to have a constitutional arrangement
in this country which does protect them. They are also entitled as
workers to have their standard of living protected. The key to the
development of class struggle lies in this area, because this raises the whole
question of class politics - who controls the wealth and resources. In that
context, we think class politics can develop, and the Unionist working class
in the North will adopt a radical position. How long is it going to take? I
don't know. It might happen in a year, it might take ten years. I'm no
prophet.
Q.
What is the position about education in regard to clerical control?
The
education system in the 26 counties is a sectarian education system controlled
in the main by a Catholic clergy. We are completely opposed to this. We want a
secular system in both parts of the country.
Q.
How would you see the problem of school integration in the North?
In
principle we are in favour of an integrated secular education system. The
difficulty about the present situation in the North is that if we do have an
integrated education system, it means in effect that we have an
education system, which is under the control of the pro-imperialist section of
the population. So, in the present conditions we would have to argue and
oppose that development. The Catholic community in the North have controlled
their own education system. The state has controlled the education of the
Protestants or loyalists. While we disagree with the Catholic Church
controlling the education system, Catholic education has tended to produce
people who have some form of anti-imperialist attitudes and sentiments, and
even politics. We think it is better to maintain that than to destroy it. When
we have the destruction of the six-county state, we would have a national
education system for the whole country, which would be secularised.
Q.
What in your view is Britain's policy now towards the situation in Northern
Ireland?
British
policy must be viewed in the light of their attitude towards Ireland as a
whole - not just towards the six counties. What Britain wants is to
maintain her influence here over the whole island. Her military and
political intervention in the North is simply a means of maintaining this
influence and this control. Britain knows that if she is compelled to
withdraw from the North, she loses all control over the economy, the wealth
and the resources of this country. She knows that there is a good possibility
of the creation of a socialist state. Britain and the EEC countries also would
be conscious of the effect of a socialist state in Ireland on the
western European working class, in France, in Germany, in Italy, in Belgium
and in Holland. A socialist revolution in Ireland would be an inspiration to
people all over western Europe. The EEC countries have a vested interest, as
well as Britain, in ensuring that there is no change in the status quo in
Ireland.
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