Further Rebuttals to Jim about Fathers raping their daughters in the Bible.

Further Rebuttals to Jim about Fathers raping their daughters in the Bible:

Jim-Defloration is the act of rupturing the hymen during sexual intercourse. Therefore the man can't stick his hand into the woman's vagina according to Mr. Abdallah. How can you have sexual intercourse and then stick your hand and a cloth at the same time in a woman's vagina. Make no sense does it? Then again most of Mr Abdallah's material makes no sense.

Osama- Who mentioned sexual intercourse here Jim? The woman's virginity can be taken through a person's hands, a father's finger inside his daughter as your porn-full bible clearly states it.

Here is what deflowering means Jim:

1.To take away the virginity of (a woman).

2.To destroy the innocence, integrity, or beauty of; ravage.

So deflowering doesn't necessarily have to happen only with the male's penis.

Osama- According to the Midrash Hagadol, Isaac himself examined by inserting his finger covered with a piece of cloth into Rebekah's vagina before their marriage (Midrash Hagadol to Genesis 24:67 [ed. M. Margulies; Jerusalem: Mosad Harav Kook, 1967, 411]; according to Pirke Rabbi Eliezer, chap. 16, p. 38a, the examination consisted of defloration [ref. courtesy of Jeffrey H. Tigay, University of Pennsylvania and Prof. Judah Goldin]).

Jim-Actually the Hagadol doesn't say anything of this nature. This isn't a quote, you say according to the Hagadol, however you didn't quotethe Hagagol. Show me exactly what the quote says and then show me the link where you got the quote so I can examine for myself.

Osama- Read http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jwst/4q159.htm, Note #13, read toward the end of the note.

Osama- According to the apocryphal Book of James, sec. 19-20, Mary was likewise (through the act of deflowering) examined for virginity by Salome (New Testament Apocrypha, ed E. Hennecke & W. Schneemelcher, 385; ref. courtesy of Prof. Tikva Frymer-Kensky and Jeffrey H. Tigay, University of Pennsylvania and Prof. Robert A. Kraft).

Osama- I know very well that the Iraqi, Iranian, Moroccan and Egyptian Jews in the old days used to do it; the father sticks his two fingers into his daughter's vagina covered in a piece of cloth and then he goes outside and shows everyone that she is virgin by displaying the bloody cloth before his daughter's actual marriage in few hours.

jim-Also I believe you didn't read my post real well since I have already discussed deflowering, your quote never mentioned deflowering, you did in the parentheis, here is my discussion on deflowering which you didn't bother to address:

def·lo·ra·tion (dfl-rshn)

1.The act of deflowering.

2.Rupture of the hymen, typically in sexual intercourse.

Osama- I already addressed this above. According to your porn-full bible, the fathers used to take the virginity of their daughters away through their fingers.

de·flow·er (d-flour)

tr.v. de·flow·ered, de·flow·er·ing, de·flow·ers

1.To take away the virginity of (a woman).

2.To destroy the innocence, integrity, or beauty of; ravage.

Osama- Yes, but according to the Talmud, which the Bible in Deuteronomy 22:13-18 further agrees with, males can do it to females through other means other than the sexual intercourse. They could use their fingers instead. Again, read http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jwst/4q159.htm, Note #13, read toward the end of the note.

Jim-Deflowering dealing with sex is physically taking away a woman's virginity through sexual intercourse unless Mr. ABdallah is saying that having sex can be done with a cloth now. I'm sure the sexual educators and the medical doctors would love to hear this. Deflowering can't be after sexual intercourse and Mr. Abdallah's statments itself disproves his point, look at the first words of deuteronomy 22:13-18

If a man takes a wife and, after laying with her

Jim-What do we see at the beginning of this topic.

1. the man presenting the cloth after laying with his wife.

According to Mr. Abdallah this is deflowering (deflower) according to what deflower means

1. Taking away the virginity, hence having sex to do this.

2. rupturing the hymen through sexual intercourse

What does the verse say:

AFTER SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

Mr. Abdallah if deflowering is during intercourse why do you have to intentionally change the definition to make it after intercouse? If we accept Mr. Abdallah's statments as valid, then deflowering wouldn't be deflowering which would make his definition and his whole paper wrong.

Osama- I am not changing the definition of the word here. If you visit the link that I gave you above, then you will see that male biblical figures have done it to females in the past without sexual intercourse.

Jim-You claimed that the above examples along with the apocraphyl quote verfied your point as being deflowering, however you didn't quote any of these specific sources ,you said according too, etc. Reposting didn't help you. You still failed to explain the above points one by one as to how it would be deflowering.

Osama- Well now you have them. Visit the link that I provided above.

Osama- I had some Christians raise high objections to this point, and some had even criticized me of being a "liar". Well, beside from the above references that clearly prove my point,

Jim-You didn't quote a single referenece, you said according to, but what is it according to Mr. Abdallah? I see no specific quote which explictedly said that this was deflowering. How can you a deflower someone when deflowering is the rupturing of the hymen during sexual intercourse. Do you use a cloth to have sex with a woman mr. Abdallah? Aparently you have no legitamate answer.

Osama- The proof to everything I said is in the link that I provided above.

Jim- Mr. Abdallah-if you still do not believe me then go and seek it among OLD MIDDLE EASTERN Jews for yourself

Jim-Rabbi Finkelstein From Jews for Judaism

I appreciate your challenge to ask a Jew or a rabbi about the alleged checking of women's virginity by the father. I understand that as a Muslim, you would endeavor to prove that the Torah of the Jews is corrupt. That is part of Muslim teaching, that only the Koran is the accurate word of G-d. I have no problem respecting your beliefs and your efforts to prove them.

However, like most untruths, your allegations are only partially correct. Yes, Jewish law allows the man to claim that a marriage was under false pretexts if he finds her to not be verginal. She can prove her virginity by displaying a cloth ON WHICH the couple had relations. Very few communities do this, but it could be done.

Nowhere does it say that the father must check personally. That is patently false. Women do check themselves internally on a monthly basis as well as before the wedding night to make sure they are not spotting or menstruant. The Torah does prohibit cohabitation during menstruating and for seven days after onset...

Jim-Mr. Abdallah your claim is false and untrue and no rabbinical Jew or Middle eastern Jew would ever agree with what you claim. As I mentioned before, you have no purpose for being truthful.

Also, using your own personal common sense, explain to me what the Bible means by "her parents shall display the cloth" and its relationship to the girl's virginity? If the husband is the one to take his wife's virginity through sexual intercourse, then what would having the girl's parents displaying "the cloth" have anything to do with it? >You might then think, then how would the husband be able to know whether his wife was ever touched by another man if her father took her virginity away from her before marriage? >My answer to this question is that some men can tell by instinct whether their wives had previous relationships before when they sleep with their wives. This however is very difficult and doesn't apply to all men, especially when their wives are good in faking it. In the old Jewish culture (which was inserted into the Bible as a DIVINE REVELATION FROM GOD ALMIGHTY) fathers were to take their daughters' virginity and must keep the bloody cloth for as long as their daughters were married as a solid proof. >That is why the Bible mentions "the cloth" and orders the parents to use it as a proof. Using your own common sense, the cloth would not be a clean one like anyone you have at home. It has to be a bloody one.

Jim-Your lack of knowledge on defloweration and the inability to ask a Jew who would substantiate your claim proves that you really don't know anything credible about Christianity or Judaism. There are many good religious schools to learn on a religion, do yourself a favor and enroll in one of them.

Osama- Well the Rabbi that you consulted doesn't know everything about what Rabbis did thousands of years ago. There isn't one set law of Talmud. There are many laws written by many Rabbis. While I respect his point of view, I must remind him that male biblical figures indeed did the practice of taking a female's virginity without sexual intercourse (i.e., through their fingers) before marriage.

Osama- Why would fathers do that?

Osama- According to the Bible, if women are caught having illegal sex, then they must be put to death. Where in the case of the man, that is not true. The text below, 4Q159, is a fragmentary collection of laws paraphrasing and modifying a number of Biblical laws. Lines 8-10 of the text read as follows:

ki yotsi' 'ish shem ra{ {al betulat yisra'el 'im b[yom] qaxto >'otah yo'mar uviqqeruha [ ] >ne'emanot v'im lo' kixesh {aleiha vehumeta ve'im be[sheqer] {ana >bah vene{enash shnei manim [velo'}]

yeshallax kol yamav >"If a man defames an Israelite virgin, if he speaks out on [the day] he marries her, trustworthy [...] shall examine[2] her/it, and if he has not lied about her, she shall be executed. But if he testified against her false[ly], he shall be fined two minas [...] and he may [not] divorce (her) for his entire life...[3]"

Jim-First this isn't a paraphrase from biblical laws it is a paraphrase of certain jewish laws another theing, none of your sentences are complete enough to offer any legitamate conclusion. Show us the entire sentences MR Abdallah then we will see if what you claim is satisfactory. Even scholars don't try to inteprete fragmatory manuscripts until they can tie it to more supporting evidence. Another flawed idea.

Osama- Actually the link I provided above clearly confirms this.

Osama- From this text, we clearly see the hardship on the women in the Bible regarding adultery. The bride would lose her life if she was not virgin on the day she got married.

Jim-From the small quoting that we have from Mr. Abdallah it says

Osama- and if he has not lied about her, she shall be executed

Jim-If the man hasn't lied then would this occur. If we take Mr. Abdallah's methodology we must 1. allow people to lie 2. Have the man punished because of the woman's lie 3. If we agree that this is hardship then we must intentionally be agreeing with someone who lies

Jim-Its strange how these above 3 pointers seem to fit Mr. Abdallah real well.

Osama- Jim, I won't answer your dumb cheap remarks for you obviously lack a great deal of knowledge about the Jewish old laws and how vicious they were to women. I'll let you visit the link I provided above to see the proof for yourself.

Osama- So as a protection for the bride's life and her family's honor, the parents would keep the bloody cloth as a proof for her virginity for as long as she lives.

Osama- As I said, I know well that in the old Jewish culture in the Middle East, it was a common practice among them in Iran, Iraq, Morocco and Egypt.

Jim-Actually if you don't know what deflowering really means than how are we supposed to believe that you know anything about Jewish culture.

Osama- I am not trying to make fun of the Jewish culture. The purpose of this article is not to make fun of them. I just want to expose the man made corruption that was illegally inserted in the Bible.

Jim-Actually what you claim doesn't exist in Jewish culture. Also if it is in their culture

1. how does this expose so-called man made corruption? 2. What if this was in their culture and the bible wasn't corrupted? 3. What is the correct way to go about this, if deflowering occurs based on culture practice then it prove that a religious text is wrong?

1. These are the logical fallacies of red herring, fallacy of equivocation and begging the Questions. Your points make no sense and no religious scholar or any credible person would even embarrass themselves for arguing from this point.

Osama- Everything I said was correct, because it is backed up by facts. Unlike your shallow answers, you don't use any resource to debunk my points. How funny indeed Jim.

Osama- Many cultures had weird things against women and humanity. Take for instance the Hindus. It used to be part of their traditions/pagan religion to literally burn the woman ALIVE if her husband dies. They believed that if he dies, then her spirit needs to be connected with his, and by burning her ALIVE they would accomplish that. Ironically however, when the woman dies, then her husband doesn't get burnt alive nor gets executed nor even gets hurt. The man simply lives if his wife dies, but the woman gets burnt alive if her husband dies. This Hindu tradition is called the "Sati" tradition. Have the Indian government not banned it, then we would still see it practiced today.

Jim-Red herring, what does this have to do with Jewish culture, Islam or the bible. Diversion of attention, shows that argument is unprovable and flawed from the beginning.

Osama- Just trying to further expose the other religions and show that Islam is truly the best Way of Life and GOD Almighty's True Religion.

Osama- Another example is the Pagan Arabs before Islam. My ancestors more than 1400 years ago used to bury their daughters ALIVE at the age of 2 to 4, because for many of them giving birth to females used to be shameful and would bring disgrace to the family/tribe! Islam came and stopped all of that and Muslims fought many bloody battles against the 365 Arab pagan tribes for many reasons, because Islam came and called for an end to many of the uncivilized traditions that they used to practice.

Jim-However Islam didn't call an end to men marrying children. This was a cultural norm too from the pagan arabs. Also what were these uncivilized traditions that Islam stopped? Give detailed information, quoting from credible secular, and islamic sources. Its very easy to claim something without proving it.

Osama- It's funny how you mentioned this when your porn-full bible's Theologians and Historians claim that Mary got pregnant at the age of 12. So she too was a "child" when she got pregnant. As to Prophet Muhammad's marriage, I debunked every single bogus point raised against him at: Prophet Muhammad's Marriage with Aisha peace be upon her.

Osama- This pagan Arab culture (of burrying daughters alive) reminds me of the Verse in the Roman Catholic Bible that says "...and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss. (From the New Jerusalem Bible, Ecclesiasticus 22:3)"

Jim-Actually no such thing occurs in the Catholic Bible. There is no Ecclesiasticus 22:3. Show us one link over the internet where we can find such s criptures. You copied this from sites such as

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/shdaut.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/women.html

Osama- Again Jim, you proved that you are ignorant and lack a great deal of knowledge about the bible. Did you bother to check the New Jerusalem Bible? Here is the book information that contains the verse Ecclesiasticus 22:3:

The New Jerusalem Bible.
Published by Doubleday, A division of Bantam Doubleday, Dell Publishing Group, Inc.
1540 Broadway, New York, New York 10036.
ISBN: 0-385-14264-1 (Regular Edition).
ISBN: 0-385-46961-6 (Deluxe Edition).

Jim, you are truly a big joke, with all due respect, because you make very uneducated claims which result in making you look like a dummy.

Osama- And in the regular Bible, it reminds me of the Verse that says giving birth to females causes double the filth (Leviticus 12:2-5), and fathers can literally sell their daughters as slave-girls to other men (Exodus 21:7-8). >Inserting cultural garbage into a Holy Scripture and call it GOD's Divine Revelation would be the greatest insult to GOD Almighty, and I as a devoted Muslim who Fasts the Holy Month of Ramadan, Pray to Allah Almighty, pay 2.5% of my income for Islamic Zakah (Taxes) to help the poor and do righteousness as much as possible have a great deal of problem with that! >As for the Bible, sticking your middle finger (sorry to say that) into your daughter's vagina is not GOD's command! It is a corruption. The Old Testament is not the only Book that has many corruptions in it. The New Testament has it too. Check out the validity of the New Testament, the so called "GOD's inspired Book" to see if it's indeed a Divine Book.

Jim-Maybe I should remind you of this

"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe." S. 2:223

The reason why this verse was “revealed” is given in Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2159:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

Ibn Umar misunderstood (the Qur'anic verse, "So come to your tilth however you will")--may Allah forgive him. The fact is that this clan of the Ansar, who were idolaters, lived in the company of the Jews who were the people of the Book. They (the Ansar) accepted their superiority over themselves in respect of knowledge, and they followed most of their actions. The people of the Book (i.e. the Jews) used to have intercourse with their women on one side alone (i.e. lying on their backs). This was the most concealing position for (the vagina of) the women. This clan of the Ansar adopted this practice from them. But this tribe of the Quraysh used to uncover their women completely, and seek pleasure with them from in front and behind and laying them on their backs.

When the muhajirun (the immigrants) came to Medina, a man married a woman of the Ansar. He began to do the same kind of action with her, but she disliked it, and said to him: We were approached on one side (i.e. lying on the back); do it so, otherwise keep away from me. This matter of theirs spread widely, and it reached the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).

So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur'anic verse: "Your wives are a tilth to you, so come to your tilth however you will," i.e. from in front, from behind or lying on the back. But this verse meant the place of the delivery of the child, i.e. the vagina.

Instead of respecting the woman's refusal to engage in a particular sexual position, Allah sends down the command permitting men to enter women as they like! This would be what we would have to conclude. How come men can plow into women as they choose? Any non-Muslim can easily use this against you.

"They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them as ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly; and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." S. 2:222

The Quran is wrong in classifying woman's monthly cycles as pollution since it is the natural mechanism for keeping women healthy.

A Christian would say-This once more demonstrates the low view of women in Islam, going so far as to classify women's natural process of purification as a pollutant. This is totally unlike the biblical position that classifies monthly cycles in the category of ceremonially uncleanness as opposed to being viewed as a medical harm or defect. (Cf. Leviticus 15)

Osama- Again Jim, you are indeed hellarious! In Noble Verse 2:223, it was your people the Jews and Christians who made up some bogus scientific claims about babies being born with sqert eyes if the man has sexual intercourse with his wife backwards through her vagina. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him came and corrected their dumb and false claims. So you should thank him actually for preventing your people from making up a Gospel and puting their bogus claims in it.

Visit Is anal sex really allowed in Islam? in case you thought that Noble Verse 2:223 and Prophet Muhammad were talking about anal sex instead.

As to women being a pollution, I think you should take grammar 101, for you obviously don't know how to read English! Let me help you read Noble Verse 2:222:

"They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution.....(The Noble Quran, 2:222)"

Let's look at it from a simpler grammar:

"They ask thee concerning THE COURSES OF WOMEN. Say: THESE COURSES are a hurt and a pollution.....(The Noble Quran, 2:222)"

Where in the Noble Quran do you see Allah Almighty calling women a "pollution"?!

"....So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by God. For God loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean. (The Noble Quran, 2:222)"

Allah Almighty here commands us to stay away from our women who are having their menses SEXUALLY (i.e., having sexual intercourse with them). But we can still be physically around them and act normally with them. This is confirmed in the several above narrations about our beloved Prophet peace be upon him when he used to PHYSICALLY TOUCH his wives while they were having their menses by laying his head on their laps and reciting the Noble Quran.

The following Saying from our beloved Prophet peace be upon him further proves the point and directly explains Noble Verse 2:222 above:

Thabit narrated it from Anas: "Among the Jews, when a woman menstruated, they did not dine with her, nor did they live with them in their houses; so the Companions of the Apostle (may peace be upon him) asked The Apostle (may peace be upon him), and Allah, the Exalted revealed:" And they ask you about menstruation; say it is a pollution, so keep away from woman during menstruation" to the end (Qur'an, ii. 222). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do everything except intercourse. The Jews heard of that and said: This man does not want to leave anything we do without opposing us in it. Usaid b. Hudair and Abbad b. Bishr came and said: Messenger of Allah, the Jews say such and such thing. We should not have, therefore, any contact with them (as the Jews do). The face of the Messenger of Allah (way peace be upon him) underwent such a change that we thought he was angry with them, but when they went out, they happened to receive a gift of milk which was sent to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him). He (the Holy Prophet) called for them and gave them drink, whereby they knew that he was not angry with them. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0592)"

Please visit Did Prophet Muhammad really recognize the Bible as an error-free book?

Contradictions and proofs of History Corruptions in the Bible.

The Muslim men can still be loving and be near their wives and touch them too when their wives are having their monthly periods:

Narrated 'Aisha: "The Prophet used to recite the Quran with his head in my lap while I used to be in my periods (having menses). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, ONENESS, UNIQUENESS OF ALLAH (TAWHEED), Volume 9, Book 93, Number 639)"

'Aisha reported: "The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) would recline in my lap when I was menstruating, and recite the Qur'an. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0591)"

Maimuna (the wife of the Holy Prophet) reported: "The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) contacted and embraced his wives over the waist-wrapper when they were menstruating. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0579)"

'A'isha reported: "The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said to me: Get me the mat from the mosque. I said: I am menstruating. Upon this he remarked: Your menstruation is not in your hand. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0587)"

So women in Islam do not pollute or cause anything to be unclean if they touch it while they are having their menses.

The Bible on the other hand, does consider women unclean and they would cause anything and everything they touch to be unclean. Visit Women's Menses in Islam and the Bible.

Jim-Mr. Abdallah I really think that you should read my post closely before responding.

Osama- Jim, I really think you should study the Bible and Islam more before you make an utter fool out of yourself.

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