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1-30-03
Mike wrote:
Dear Brian,
You bring to light many interesting things. Concerning the idea that the
Bible is still valid according to the Koran, I don't think you're seeing the
whole picture. The verses you've provided only show part of the message.
For instance, read these verses...
002.105. Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture nor
the idolaters love that there should be sent down unto you any good thing
from your Lord. But Allah chooseth for His mercy whom He will, and Allah is
of Infinite Bounty.
002.106. Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or
cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.
Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things ?
002.107. Knowest thou not that it is Allah unto Whom belongeth the
Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth; and ye have not, beside Allah, any
guardian or helper ?
You see now. The Koran abrogates any previous scriptures which were from God. Therefore, whether the Bible has been altered or not, is really irrelevant. Don't tell me that God cannot abrogate scripture...here's some examples from the Bible if you doubt.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt
of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The
righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the
wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
This abrogated part of Commandment #3
Exodus 20:4-6
Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or
fish. You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God,
am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do
not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the
children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations.
But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a
thousand generations.
Repeated in Exodus…34
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD , the LORD , the
compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and
faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness,
rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes
the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and
fourth generation."
And don't forget the biggest abrogation of all: The Law.
Abrogated by Paul in...
Ephesians 2:14-15
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the
barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law
with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself
one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
The entire Law was abrogated by this verse! Although as a side note, I think he was contradicting Jesus himself as he spoke words quite contrary to this...
Mathew 5:17-20
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have
not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until
heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of
a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is
accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and
teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,
but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the
kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses
that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not
enter the kingdom of heaven.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot: "…turn the other cheek…" which abrogates "…kill everything that breathes…"
Anyway, with that in mind, it is not difficult to see why and how God can abrogate his own books as the Moslems claim. Not to mention the other verses which I supplied earlier, which indicate that the "People of the Book" hid some of that which they were given, and some of them wrote their own words claiming them to be Gods.
You've somehow limited this to the Arabian Jews and Christians, but I don't see that mentioned in the text. What the Koran, on the other hand, is actually referring to is the idea of worshipping other gods.
009.031. They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
Now I'm sure you'll agree that this type of activity was not limited to the Arabian peninsula.
So to continue…I think what is now clear, is that it is actually irrelevant, from the Moslem's perspective, whether the Bible has been changed or not. The Koran replaces whatever came before, but does this flow with the message of the Bible as it claims to? Let's take a look to the Bible, to find out… First, the idea that we were to worship only One God, which is the single most important feature of the Koran's teachings.
Deuteronomy 13:1-11
Worshiping Other Gods
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and
announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of
which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods"
(gods you have not known) and let us worship them, you must not listen to
the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to
find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It
is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his
commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or
dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD
your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of
slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded
you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or
your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship
other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the
peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the
other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare
him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be
the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.
Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your
God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all
Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil
thing again.
And…
Exodus 20:1-6
The Ten Commandments
And God spoke all these words:
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of
slavery.
"You shall have no other gods before me.
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven
above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow
down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth
generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand
{generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
A fairly serious threat you'll agree…
But does the Bible say anything about a message or Prophet to come after
Jesus? This information, if found, would certainly strengthen the claim of
the Koran.
Deuteronomy 18:18-22
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I
will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command
him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my
name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak
in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks
in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ? If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
Now this Prophet was to come from among the "brothers" of the Israelites. Its seems like he couldn't be a Jew, and must be from the line of Ishmael. To add more proof to this statement, here's a prophecy of Solomon about this coming prophet…
1 Kings 8:41-42
"As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come
from a distant land because of your name- for men will hear of your great
name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm-when he comes and prays
toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and do
whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may
know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that
this house I have built bears your Name.
This sounds a lot like the Prophet Muhammad, according to the earliest
Islamic sources.
Sahih al-Bukhari vol.1 #39
Narrated Al Bara (bin Azib)
When the Prophet came to Medina, he stayed first with his grandfathers or
maternal uncles from Ansar. He offered his prayers facing Baitul-Maqdis
(Jerusalem) for sixteen or seventeen months…
Let's continue to see if there are more references to this individual in the Bible. As you'll see in the following verses, this prophet was a distinct person, separate from Christ, and he was not John the Baptist.
John 1:19-21
Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and
Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed
freely, "I am not the Christ. They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you
Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."
Hey the Jews of Jerusalem knew about him too It seems like everyone knows about this guy
John 1:24-25
Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, "Why then do you
baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
And Jesus himself it seems, had a few words to say about him as well…
John 16:12-14
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he,
the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not
speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you
what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine
and making it known to you.
Notice that he describes the Spirit of Truth in the same terms as God described the Prophet in Deuteronomy as "I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." But where would this 'foreigner be from, if he's not a Jew? Here are a few verses, which may indicate his lineage, and possible place of residence.
Deuteronomy 33:1-2
This is the blessing that Moses the man of God pronounced on the Israelites
before his death. He said:
"The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes
Isaiah 42:10-11
Song of Praise to the Lord
Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
Let the desert and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.
A new song? Where Kedar lives? Somewhere in the desert? Hmm…that sounds vaguely familiar. But who was Kedar?
Genesis 25:12-13
Ishmael's Sons
This is the account of Abraham's son Ishmael, whom Sarah's maidservant,
Hagar the Egyptian, bore to Abraham.
These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their
birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma,
Dumah, Massa,
Hey didn't the Arabs of Mecca claim to be descendants of Ishmael?
Biography of the Prophet Muhammad
Muhammad was born in Mecca (Makkah), Arabia, on Monday, 12 Rabi' Al-Awal (2
August A.D. 570). His mother, Aminah, was the daughter of Wahb Ibn 'Abdu
Manaf of the Zahrah family. His father, Abdullah, was the son of Abdul
Muttalib. His genealogy has been traced to the noble house of Ishmael, the
son of Prophet Abraham in about the fortieth descent.
What about specifics, could the Bible contain specific information on what this individual looked like? Perhaps his name is mentioned. Here's some verses from the Song of Solomon which may just be about this individual…
Song of Solomon 1:4-5
Friends
We rejoice and delight in you;
we will praise your love more than wine.
Beloved How right they are to adore you! Dark am I, yet lovely, O daughters of Jerusalem, dark like the tents of Kedar,
Song of Solomon 5:10-16
Beloved
My lover is radiant and ruddy,
outstanding among ten thousand.
His head is purest gold;
his hair is wavy
and black as a raven.
His eyes are like doves
by the water streams,
washed in milk,
mounted like jewels.
His cheeks are like beds of spice
yielding perfume.
His lips are like lilies
dripping with myrrh.
His arms are rods of gold
set with chrysolite.
His body is like polished ivory
decorated with sapphires.
His legs are pillars of marble
set on bases of pure gold.
His appearance is like Lebanon,
choice as its cedars.
His mouth is sweetness itself;
he is altogether lovely. (Hebrew Muhammadim )
This is my lover, this my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem.
Okay, this one is pretty metaphorical. But it got the black hair and his name right.
But why all this? Why would God favor the Children of Israel with all these Prophets and messages, only to send it all over to their brothers the Ishmaelites? Could the answer also lie somewhere in the Bible? Let's see…
Matthew 21:42-44
4Jesus said to them, Have you never read in the Scriptures:
'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone ;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and
given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone
will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.
Deuteronomy 32
They made me jealous by what is no god
and angered me with their worthless idols.
I will make them envious by those who are not a people;
I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.
Without trying to sound racist, this is a pretty accurate description of the Arabs before Islam. I hope you were able to read all this, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. However, I understand that the Bible alone is not enough to validate the Koran and the claim that Muhammad was the last prophet. This is a whole other issue which we can get into, however I don't have time to write down all of the arguments and proofs I've heard right now. Of course you might have another perfectly good explanation for these verses. After all the Bible is a big book, and these prophecies may refer to someone else. However, I've never seen anyone who's matched as closely as Muhammad. Take care and may God guide us both to the Truth.
Peace
Mike
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2-7-03
Brian wrote:
Thank you for responding. It is my dear hope that we both will challenge each other's views, and in the end not hold on to the ones proven wrong. May truth abound.
What you have reverted to, to justify the Bible as not worthy to be believed by Muslims today, is that God's Word might not necessarily have been changed by man, but that He can abrogate it and change it Himself. Out of necessity one would have to revert to this argument, after it is clearly shown that the Quran endorses the Bible's authenticity (as I have shown in the last email), to argue that we don't have to believe the Bible any more.
Let me ask you: What parts of the Bible have been abrogated by the Quran? Everything? Just theological differences on how to get to heaven? Or anthing that you want so you can justify Islams goals?
I agree with you that God over time has changed how He deals with man. One obvious proof are the titles of the parts of the Bible: Old Testament and New Testament, meaning Old Covenant and New Covenant. God has made different covenants in different periods of time. Here is another example:
Hebrews 7:11-12
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the
law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec,
and not be called after the order of Aaron? [12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made
of necessity a change also of the law.
You say that Islam abrogates the Bible. What part and what is the reason? We have reason explained to us why the Old Covenant under the Mosaic Law was abolished and a new one instituted:
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son
in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Acts 13:38-39
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you
the forgiveness of sins: [39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which
ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Romans 3:19-26
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20]
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the
knowledge of sin.
[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the
law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto
all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come
short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is
in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to
declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of
him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 8:2-4
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and
death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his
own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the
righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in
vain.
Galatians 3:19-24
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should
come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. [21] Is the law then against the
promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life,
verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under
sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should
afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,
that we might be justified by faith.
Hebrews 10:1-12
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can
never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers
thereunto perfect. [2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the
worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices
there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. [4] For it is not possible that the blood of
bulls and of goats should take away sins. [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,
Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: [6] In burnt
offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the
volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, Sacrifice
and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure
therein; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He
taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [10] By the which will we are sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily
ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12]
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of
God;
Very clearly now, we can see that there was a reason why God instituted the New Covenant. Because Old Covenant could not make the adherer thereunto perfect, for everyone fell short. However, even though the Covenant was made new, the process of the Covenant was not: still, there had to be a sacrifice for our sins by the shedding of blood. Jesus was slain to provide that innocent blood. Then what does it say? That "we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. AND "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever." It says that this covenant was to be forever, that Christ's sacrifice satisfied eternity. It is brought out more clearly in the following verses:
Ephes. 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey
him;
Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy
place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the
redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might
receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
The only way for to keep eternal life is to beleive in His Son's sacrifice, forever.
Hebrews 7:28
For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which
was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
"consecrated for evermore." < I understand your argument that God can abrograte. However, when God promises that His covenant
will last for eternity, then I believe that God's covenant will last for eternity. God won't abrogate an
eternal law. It is that clear.
To comment on whether the Quran is in "the flow" of the Biblical message as you have claimed:
Obviously, the abrogation part is surely not part of the flow as shown above. Did Christianity stray from
the belief in One God? No. It believes that Jesus is God, not making two God's, but still keeping one.
And actually, if you have read the Old Testament, as you should if you are going to argue about it, you
will see that this belief that the Messiah is God come in the flesh is very much in 'the flow' of the
Messianic prophecies. To prove this point, please view my three page conclusion on this subject at:
Concerning your other arguments that Muhummed was prophesied as coming after Jesus according to
the Bible: I see them fall apart very quickly in light of how the Jew themselves read the language of their
own prophesies. About raising up "a Prophet from among their brethren": Have you studied what
brethren is supposed to mean. No Jewish scholar would conclude that this is refering to a person other
than in the Israelite domain. The language of the verse in that time period is talking about one from
among them. This is backed up by even by the language of time of Abraham when Isaac is born: Isaac
is said to be Abraham's only son. (Gen.22:2). This is obviously not literally true, for Abraham had
Ishmael first. However, according to thair language, the two sons were not even considered brethren,
for Isaac was the only son of promise, while Ishmael was born out of disobedience to God on
Abraham's part with a foreign maidservant, consequently not letting Ishmael in on inheritance or family
right. The new testament jews realized this I you can see when citing the following:
Hebrews 11:17
The two weren't even considered brethren. So the argument falls to ashes even before the fire is lit.
This is how it is with all of the arguments brought up to support Muhummed's prophecied entrance into
stardom. As I questioned earlier, which parts of the Bible have been abrogated or changed? The ones
that Muslims don't like to hear. But the ones that very weakly support Muhummed are heightened to
the status of God's Word.
You use the verse in John to say that the Spirit of Truth is Muhummed:
John 16:12-14
All we have to do to shatter this argument is go to the Quran to define "Spirit of Truth.":
(Surah 26:192-193) - "Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: With is came down
the Spirit of Faith and Truth."
(Surah 4:171) "Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messanger of Allah, and His Word, which He
bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him."
The Quran says the Spirit of Truth came down with the revelation of the Quran. So obviously this Spirit
of Truth cannot be Muhummed, for he was born in 573 A.D. It is also interesting that Jesus is called the
Word of God, and a Spirit proceeding from Him. See also (Surah 3:45).
Now, even if we don't use the Quran to prove this argument wrong, we can use the Bible:
John 14:16
John 14:26
John 15:26
John 16:7
Here, by the Bible, we see that the Spririt of Truth is the Holy Ghost, not Muhummed, and that the Holy
Ghost is also called the Comforter. And that the Comforter will teach us all things and abide with us
forever. This, of course, cannot be a prophecy of Muhummed.
--------------------------
To be continued...
Brian's email continued...(page 3)
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises
offered up his only begotten son,
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [13] Howbeit when he,
the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [14] He shall
glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with
you for ever;
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall
teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of
truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the
Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
