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Dialogue with Mike continued (page 3)

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Brian's email continued:

...Using the Bible verses that you did, and coming up with a net spun around Muhummed, takes a lot of intentional interpreting and adding extra meanings into the verses. They are at best pathetic for heralding the last and most important prophet of God, so called Muhummed, into the world. One would never come to this same conclusion using these verses if they never knew who Muhummed was. One has to 'make them fit'. I could pull 5 verses from the Bible from different spots and make an argument of prophetic calling equivalent to yours in strength supposedly about almost anyone in the wolrd. Taking verses out of an obvious metaphorical context and trying to use it literally, as you conceeded you did, is worse than using no argument at all. When these methods are used to support an argument because of obvious lack of real supportive verses, it just makes it open that there really is no argument at all.

It is again exposed by your fatal use of Matt.:

Matthew 21:42-44
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? [43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. [44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

While reading the rest of the new testament, it is very clear that this verse is talking about the gentiles, the ones that Paul decided to focus his minstry on. To start your research on this topic, read Romans ch. 11.

In conclusion, i'll just restate what I said a few paragraphs up: these arguments to support Muhummed's office by prophecies of old just hold no water. I hope that it is as easy for you to see as it is for me. However, I know that when one wants something to so much line up, they make things stretch to fit their agenda. An objective study will surely expose this futile effort of stretching.

Thank you again for your questions. Please reply to the questions I enquired of you near the beginning of this response: those having to do with what parts or themes of the Bible have been abrogated by Islam.

In sincere love,
Brian Lucero

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2-18-03

Micheal wrote:

Dear Brian,
Thanks for your comments. The main thing I want to point out at this point is that it is not proven, as you've mentioned, that the Koran endorses a belief in the Bible as it exists today. It does mention previous revelations of God, but it also mentions that these previous revelations have been tampered with, not only in text, but in the way they are to be interpreted. I will now provide evidence for this assertion from several sources.

The Koran:
I think it's also clear from some of the following verses, which aspects of the New Testament were being abrogated by the Koran, in answer to your question.

002.101. And when there came to them an apostle from God, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of God behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!

003.187. And remember God took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!

002.059. But those who did wrong changed the word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from heaven for their evil-doing.

002.079. Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

002.140. Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians ? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah ? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah ? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.

003.078. And lo! there is a party of them who distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It is from Allah, when it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

004.171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

005.073. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

004.172. The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him;

005.017. They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth ? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

005.072. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

005.075. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

009.030. And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

009.031. They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

Old Testament
Following are some verses from the Old Testament which explain why I cannot accept your position on who the last Prophet was, based on the understanding of Jewish scholars. To say that none of them understood the prophecies to mean a non-Jew is a generalization. In reality many Jews (including Hussain ibn As-Salam, a well know Jewish scholar of the time) accepted Islam when it came to Medinah.

Deuteronomy 31:25-29
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD : 26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. 29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

Jeremiah 8:8
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

Jeremiah 23:25-40
25 "I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream!' 26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? 27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through Baal worship. 28 Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the LORD . 29 "Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD , "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces? 30 "Therefore," declares the LORD , "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes," declares the LORD , "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.' 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD . "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD .

False Oracles and False Prophets

33 "When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, 'What is the oracle of the LORD ?' say to them, 'What oracle? I will forsake you, declares the LORD .' 34 If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, 'This is the oracle of the LORD ,' I will punish that man and his household. 35 This is what each of you keeps on saying to his friend or relative: 'What is the LORD's answer?' or 'What has the LORD spoken?' 36 But you must not mention 'the oracle of the LORD ' again, because every man's own word becomes his oracle and so you distort the words of the living God, the LORD Almighty, our God. 37 This is what you keep saying to a prophet: 'What is the LORD's answer to you?' or 'What has the LORD spoken?' 38 Although you claim, 'This is the oracle of the LORD ,' this is what the LORD says: You used the words, 'This is the oracle of the LORD ,' even though I told you that you must not claim, 'This is the oracle of the LORD .' 39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your fathers. 40 I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace-everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."

New Testament

Jesus (and Isaiah) have a few things to say about altering the message of God�

Mark 7:5-13
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." 9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[3] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Matthew 23:29-39
29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Here are some examples of changes made in the New Testament. Why were these verses added, or removed, from later translations of the Bible? How many verses remain, that should be removed?

1 John 5:6-8 (King James)
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 John 5:6-8 (NIV)
6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Mark 16:8-9 (NIV)
8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons�.

So there you have it. I'll understand if you're not ready to admit that the Bible was really corrupted, however you should, for your own good, look into the matter yourself. I don't expect you to take my word for it, but what I've explained here is directly from the Bible itself. I didn't change the verses or add them or remove them.

However I do expect that you'll accept that the Koran is consistent on this matter, within the context of its own teachings: that the Bible having once been revealed by God has been altered and is therefore unreliable. And that the teachings of the Jews and the Christians are no longer in-line with what God has said. Therefore it is not asking anyone to believe in the existing Bible as 100 % Word of God, in addition to the Koran. If the Koran were teaching this, then you would have a point, and Moslems would be at a loss to explain how they can believe in two books, which teach a different belief. But, with regard to the overwhelming evidence given above, I'm sure this is not the case.

I realize that I have not addressed all of the points brought up in your previous email, however I do intend to. I feel that this issue, which I've written about here, is of the first priority and I would like to come to an understanding with regard to it before moving into too many other topics. I hope you are benefiting from these exchanges as much as I am, and may God guide you and me both to the Truth.

Mike

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3-13-03

Brian wrote:

Dear Michael,

I pray that the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit, may reveal to us both what is from God and what is not - that we both have a desire to hear the truth when it comes and actually pray about it, not hardening ourselves from it - in the name of Jesus Christ.

It seems that we are talking over each others' heads. Many of the points that you brought up in this last email I thought have already been answered. Yet it seems when an issue has been dealt with thoroughly, it comes up again, as if all the points made about it have been forgotten. I don't know if that is intentional, as in trying to avoid the issue, or if you might be so attached to your stance, that not even God can pull you free when He reveals His truth. Either way, I just want to emphasize that God will not get the glory, and nothing will be accomplished, if either one of us or both of us are not willing to submit to God's leading to forsake our own stances in place of a better, God's stance. Make sure your motive is right.

In response to your last email sent on 2-18-03:

You are right when I say that it is not proven that Koran endorses a belief in the Bible as it exists today; however, the Koran DOES endorse a belief in the Bible as it existed in the time of Mohammed, circa 600 A.D. Now I don't think I should re-quote the verses of the Koran which show this, for you can just look on my website or re-read my previous emails if you want to refresh. This is one of the points that I don't think I have to go over again, for it seems from the Koran that it is so clear that Muhammad believed in the Bible. Here are a few verses just for the sake of this email:

(Surah 2;136) "You say "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah."

(Surah 5;68) "Say: "O People of the Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."

(Surah 40;70-72) "Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent Our Messengers: but soon shall they know,- When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, an the chains; they shall be dragged along- In the boiling fetid fluid; then in the Fire they shall be burned."

(Surah 2:85) "Then is it only a part of the Book that you believe in, and do you reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? -and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty."

These verses are so concrete, so clear, and so serious. The consequences of not believing the Bible is very graphic and horrific. However, when you quoted me your 6 verses from the Koran that you say show that the Bible today is not the Bible of Mohammed's day, I am really surprised that you are convinced from these. They are NOT concrete, but interpretational - and even at that, they give very weak evidence for such an important subject. Let's go through them and look at them in detail and see what truth will stand out. I hope you would do the same with the evidence that I give you in my emails that support my stance, to see weather it really is good evidence, and then conform your argument to the truth that stands firm, instead of just letting it fly past.

What're in quotes are the verses you give to prove your point that the Bible has been tampered with. I have emboldened (and put "--" on either side of the quoted text) what I think is key:

"002.101. And when there came to them an apostle from God, confirming what was with them, a --party-- of the people of the Book --threw away-- the Book of God --behind their backs--, as if (it had been something) they did not know!"

# 002.101 - Context: - Talking about the Israelites, as seen from surrounding text.

"003.187. And remember God took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to --hide-- it; but they --threw it away behind-- their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!"

# 003.187 - Context: About Israelites for they are the ones that killed the prophets as seen from surrounding text. Also it is a reiteration about what they did to the messangers' words as also seen from 002.101.

"002.059. But those who did wrong --changed the word which had been told them for another saying--, and We sent down upon the --evil-doers wrath-- from heaven for their evil-doing."

# 002.059 - Context - About Moses' people as seen from surrounding text addressing Moses. Those evil doers had plagues sent upon them.

"002.079. Therefore woe be unto those who --write-- the Scripture with their hands and then --say, "This is from Allah,"-- that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby."

# 002.079 - Context - To no one specifically, but a general command for whoever will try to pervert God's word . It has happened in past as seen from Jeremiah 23, and they were punished as in Surah 2:59.

"002.140. Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians ? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah ? And who is more unjust than he who --hideth a testimony-- which he hath received from Allah ? Allah is not unaware of what ye do."

# 002.140 - Context - Talking to no one specifically, but exorting them that the testimony that they are hiding is their belief that the prophets were Christians.

"003.078. And lo! there is a --party-- of them who --distort-- the Scripture with their --tongues--, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they --say: It is from Allah, when it is not-- from Allah; and they --speak a lie-- concerning Allah knowingly."

# 003.078 - Context - About the People of the Book, Jews or Christians. They speak a lie of what is not really a revelation from God, as Jeremiah 23.

Verses 002.101, 003.187, and 002.140 are all specifically talking about the Israelites as seen from the context of the verses. The key words are "hide" and "threw behind backs" and are very weak in saying the Bible has been tampered with even if it wasn't talking about Moses' people, who have, by the way, been dealt with for their misdeeds. They didn't want to admit to what the truth was, so they hid it so they wouldn't have to face it. they didn't alter the word.

002.059 "changed" the word of God for another word is what we all know the Israelites did, because they didn't want to hear the revelation of Moses but their own lusts, and they were chastised for it. they 'exchanged' the commands that they wanted to follow. the put another word above them in authority as what they wanted to follow, they didn't alter God's word. these were the people of Moses, not anyone else. so this can't be used to say the bible has been changed, for Muhammad has already said that the word from Moses is trustworthy, because he knows that Moses people were dealt with. Muhammad himself discredits the effect of these foolish peoples' actions.

003.078 and 002.079 go together. one is saying that people distorted the scripture with their tongues, not in ink. and the other is saying that they write scripture that is not from God. This goes along with Jeremiah 23, as false prophets made up words that they did not get from God. these false prophets never altered the Word. it does not say that those who write actually alter God's existing word, but that they have made new words. this is also known from history where the undevout Jews in Arabia made up targums to sell to people while saying it was from God.

None of these verses even cite the Bible as the victim of change. surely if it was the Bible, then Muhammad would've made sure to say so, so he could warn his followers of it's being corrupted. However, this is not the case, and even contrary to it, for Muhammad emphatically commanded to believe in the Bible. At best, one can only shove an interpretation onto these verses that you use, so to say that the Bible has been changed, because they are not concrete.. but you can see and well as I, that it is weak evidence.

If Muhammad was trying to convey that the Bible had be altered or changed, or even abrogated, then he would've surely gave caution to at least one of the many dozens of times that he so emphatically said to 'believe in the Bible' or else burn. but every time he endorsed the bible, he never had a warning come after it cautioning that some of it was corrupted. if it truly had been corrupted, then Muhammad was very foolish in not warning his followers. he would have been practicing deceit by neglect.

The argument can be likened to a man named Bob giving his brother Rick directions to his new home. If Bob's wife Jane gave Rick directions to their new home, and Bob knew that Jane's directions were wrong on only one turn out of the 26, then Bob would surely warn Rick about the mistake the next time they talked. Bob would not say "Rick, I'll see you on Saturday, just trust the directions, and you'll get their perfectly," without adding, "however, instead of turning right on Larpenteur, take a left, or else you'll be all thrown off." Muhammad would've surely cautioned the same thing if the Bible truly had been changed.

You say that in some of the verses you give, it does say what has been abrogated or changed. They warn Christians to not believe in three God's, but one. I agree, we should only believe in one God. So can we say that the Koran is wrong when it says that the Bible says that Mary is the third god of three? Or that the Jews believe Ezra was the son of God? Or even that Christians believe in three God's? Or that Jesus was an effect of procreation between God and Mary, a literal son? We will leave this for further discussion.

Going on, you say that the Koran does say what has been abrogated and what true followers of God should not believe any more. However, as argued in my last email, God will not abrogate an eternal truth, namely the eternal sacrifice that Jesus committed so we could be saved by grace. This concept is all throughout the Old Testament as well, that the messiah will be the sacrifice for mankind. Even if the Bible has been abrogated in some places, God would not change such an everlasting truth. You say that the Koran is not asking anyone to believe in the existing Bible as 100% Word of God because of abrogation. Even if this is the case, then all Muslims sill have to believe that only the blood of the Messiah can save them from sin and hell, for the Koran does not abrogate that. And even if it tried to, then that would be proof that the Koran is not from God, for Jesus said that His sacrifice was for an everlasting covenant, and that cannot be changed. There are two options then: the Koran does not abrogate Jesus' atonement, and therefore all Muslims have to believe on His blood to be washed; or the Koran does abrogate it, and that would show that the Koran is a perversion of a false prophet, and a lie, for God's eternal truths have been tampered with. (as you pointed out the verse to show corruption of God's word in Jeremiah 23). If a prophet wrote a book saying that God is no longer God but someone else is, then we would all know this to be a perversion, for God being God is an eternal truth, and it will not change, especially since God himself said so in Isaiah 43:10. Eternal truths don't change, and any deviation from them shows who is a false prophet and who isn't. Take your choice from the two given above.

-------------------------- To be continued...

Brian's email continued...