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1-23-03
Michael Schmidt wrote:
Dear Brian,
I've browsed through your refutation of Islam, and I have to inform you of
a major problem. You're basing a lot of your arguments on the idea that
Moslims are required to believe in the existing Bible. However this is not
the case. Moslims do believe in the Torah as it was revealed to Moses, and
in the Gospel as it was revealed to Jesus, but they also believe that these
books do not exist in their original form. Allow me to explain:
>From your website:
"Muslims have to Believe Bible
Muslims are required to believe in the Bible (the Taurat, Zabur, and Injil specifically) according to the Koran."
I've noted the verses of the Koran that you've quoted, and when read out of context, they make a good argument. Unfortunately, there are other verses which demonstrate what happened to the original texts of the older scriptures, as follows...
Here's on that explains that the "People of the Book" hid some of what was
originally revealed to them. (Numbers indicate Chapter and Passage of
Koranic verse)
"003.186. Assuredly ye will be tried in your property and in your persons,
and ye will hear much wrong from those who were given the Scripture before
you, and from the idolaters. But if ye persevere and ward off (evil), then
that is of the steadfast heart of things.
003.187. And (remember) when Allah laid a charge on those who had received
the Scripture (He said): Ye are to expound it to mankind and not to hide it.
But they flung it behind their backs and bought thereby a little gain.
Verily evil is that which they have gained thereby.
003.188. Think not that those who exult in what they have given, and love to
be praised for what they have not done - Think not, they are in safety from
the doom. A painful doom is theirs."
In another passage, God explains that some of them used to write things into the scripture which were not actually revealed in the original text, in order to gain worldly benefits...
"002.078. Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except
from hearsay. They but guess.
002.079. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then
say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for a miserable price!- Woe to
them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
002.080. And they say: The Fire (of punishment) will not touch us save for a
certain number of days. Say: Have ye received a covenant from Allah - truly
Allah will not break His covenant - or tell ye concerning Allah that which
ye know not ?
002.081. Nay, but whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such
are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein."
Finally, I thought I would help you in your refutation of Islam, by showing that it supports terrorism. If you choose to adopt the same method of assuming that Moslims believe in the older books, read this...
"10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be
subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make
peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the
LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in
it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in
the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the
plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you
are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not
belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as
an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely
destroy [1] them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and
Jebusites-as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will
teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their
gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God."
Pay special attention to verse 16. If Moslims believe that the Old
Testament was revealed by God to Moses, then they believe that God in this
passage from Deutoronomy 20, has ordered the killing of civilians, i.e.
Terrorism. I haven't found anything this blatant in the Koran yet, but I'm
still looking.
Keep up the good work...
Mike Schmidt
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1-25-03
Brian wrote:
Dear Michael,
Thank you for sending me your comments on the information on my website. Truly, it is appreciated.
First I will comment on you statement that Moslems, "...believe that these books do not exist in their original form." If that belief is held, then it is not based on the Koran, but it is held in spite of the Koran. Further then, one could argue that those who believe that statement are not truly Moslems. The Koran affirms itself to be the Word of God. More so, it affirms the Bible - the previous revelations- to be (or used to be) the Word of God, whether that same Bible is still around today or not.
(Surah 16;43) "And before you also the Messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if you do not realize this, ask of those who possess the Message."
(Surah 2;53) "And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion: there was a
chance for you to be guided aright."
*3;184 *57;25,27 *2;53,87 *6;89,154 *40;53 *41;45 *46;12 *4;54 *6;155 *5:44
I don't think that any Moslem denies the revelations of Moses, David, and Jesus were from God. Now, if these revelations were from God, then they WERE the Word of God. However, the Koran says that the Word of God can never change. That means they still ARE the Word of God.
(Surah 6;114-115) "Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is that sent you
the Book in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it has been
sent down from your Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. The Word of your
Lord finds its fulfillment in truth and in justice: non can change His Words for He is the One
Who hears and knows all."
('Don't be in doubt to whether the Bible is still the Word of God, for God's Word will never
change.')
(Surah 6;34) "Rejected were the Messengers before you: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid reached them: there is none that can alter the Words of Allah. Already you have received some account of those Messengers."
(Surah 18;27) "And recite what has been revealed to you of your Lord: none can change His Words, and none will you find as a refuge other than Him."
(Surah 10;64) "For them are Glad Tidings, in the life of the Present and in the Hereafter: no change can there be in the Words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity."
I could go on and on with these verses, but these should be enough. Further more, the Koran explicitly says that nothing has been omitted from the Bible:
(Surah 6;38) "Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they all shall be gathered to their Lord in the end." (This is right after the unbelievers ask why a sign has not been sent down. This is the response, saying that there has already been a sign, the previous revelations, that we have already sent down, this should confirm the new Book, the Koran.).
This is all climaxed with the emphatical statements that the Koran employs, namely, that the Bible has been kept pure and holy, and that Allah has set His seal upon His Word "guarding it in safety.":
(Surah 98:1-3) "Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,- A Messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy: Wherein are laws right and straight."
(Surah 80;12-16) "Therefore let whoso will, keep in remembrance. (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honor, Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy, (Written) by the hands of scribes- Honorable and pious and just."
(Surah 5;48) "To you We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to you."
Basically the only argument I need to use is: 'Can Allah keep His Word, guarding it, and performing his promise that it cannot change?' The answer EVERY Moslem has to give is a very bold "Yes." I could stop here with this logic, leaving the burden upon the Moslem whether to believe or not that his god can perform what he decrees. End of argument.
However, to kill even further the already dead carcass, I will show that the Koran even commands true Moslems to believe in the Bible and follow it, as it is today.
(Surah 2;4-5) "[Believers are those] Who believe in the Revelation sent to you, and sent before your time, and have the assurance of the Hereafter. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper."
(Surah 2;63) "And remember We took your Covenant and We raised above you (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai): (saying): "Hold firmly to what we have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: perchance you may fear Allah."
(Surah 2;136) "You say "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah."
(Surah 4;136) "O you who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denies Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, has gone far, far astray."
(Surah 4;162) "Believe in what has been revealed to you and what has been revealed before you."
(Surah 3;7) "And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord."
(Surah 29;46-47) " And do not dispute with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him We bow. And thus (it is) that We have sent down the Book to you. So the people of the Book believe therein, as also do some of these (Pagan Arabs): and none but Unbelievers reject Our signs."
In fact it even commands Believers to stand fast by the Bible:
(Surah 5;68) "Say: "O People of the Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."
(Surah 5;47) "Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are those who rebel."
But those who don't believe in the Bible shall go to Hell and be tortured:
(Surah 40;70-72) "Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent Our Messengers: but soon shall they know,- When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along- In the boiling fetid fluid; then in the Fire they shall be burned."
(Surah 2:85) "Then is it only a part of the Book that you believe in, and do you reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? -and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty."
And those who do believe in the Bible shall go to paradise:
(Surah 5;69) "Those who believe, those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Sabians an the Christians, - any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, -on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (also 2;62)
These verses were spoken around the year 620 A.D. That means that the Moslems at that time had to believe the Bible for Mohammed confirmed its truth. Jesus confirmed the Law of Moses:
(Surah 5;46) "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."
And Mohammed confirmed the Gospel and Law:
(Surah 6;92) "And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it."
(Surah 46:12) "And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: and this Book confirms it."
(See also: 2;41,89 *2;91,97 *2;101 *3;3,81 *4;47 *5;44-49 *6;92 *10;37 *12;111 *23;68 *35;31 *37;37 *46;12,30 *2;4-5,62,136 *4;136,162 *5;44-49,59 *5;66,68).
There are so many more scriptures that validate this, yet I'll leave it at that.
This goes to show that the Law could not have been corrupted, as you suggest, before the time of Jesus, for Jesus confirmed its validity. And the Law and Gospel could not have been corrupted before the time of Mohammed, for Mohammed confirmed their validity, and at that, overwhelmingly. This means that if you claim is true, that the Bible today is not its original form, then all this corruption and changing had to happen AFTER the time of Mohammed. And NO good Muslim can even believe that, unless he first admits that his god cannot keep his Word, like he promised, For his Word cannot change.
So when and where did these changes happen in the Bible. You have to say AFTER Mohammed. However, we today have copies (not to mention over 5,000 New Testament manuscripts, and many, many thousands of parts) of the Bible that date BEFORE Mohammed. And guess what...these ancient copies of the Bible are what the Bible TODAY reflects. The Bible we have TODAY is the Bible BEFORE Mohammed. That means Mohammed is endorsing the Bible TODAY as God's Word, kept pure and holy.
Even if the Jews or Christians in Arabia changed parts of the Bible, how did these individual attempts to alter the Word of God permeate the already hundreds of thousands of copies of the true Bible already in almost every part of the known world? It would be impossible to conspire such a grand coup on the Word of God, for one would have to gather all of the many existing copies already in use. Think about this: I could alter the Koran, and maybe even conspire with as many as 10,000 followers that agree with my translation. However, it would never be excepted across the world. Everyone would know that it corrupted and not the real thing. Why? Because there are many millions of the original copies that show that it is indeed a counterfeit. Not to mention all of the those who memorize the whole Koran, who would easily tell what is the real thing. It would be an impossible feat.
So, it changed over time? through copyist errors, and mistakes in language translation? Show us WHERE and WHEN? It is easy to make a bold statement, but not as easy to back it up. Either way, we don't even have to argue this, for we already have hard core evidence: we have the Bible BEFORE Mohammed's time, which according to Mohammed is uncorrupted.
If you don't believe the Bible has been kept, then you are arguing with the promise of Allah in the Koran. If you don't believe the Bible has been kept, then you are also arguing with every historical scholar of ancient manuscripts. If you don't believe the Bible has been kept, you are arguing with logic, and intentionally looking away and blinding yourself with foolish arguments and pathetic attempts.
I have been accused of taking the scriptures out of context. Please open your eyes: the scriptures above say what they say, overwhelmingly, and even more emphatically when reading the context around them. I am the one who has shown dozens upon dozen of scriptures from all aspects of Mohammed's statements. Obviously you are the one that is taking the scriptures out of context and writing things into the text that you want them to say. They were interpretations verses. The verses I used were blatantly confirming Bible's authority.
Be real.
About the terrorism statement that Muslims have to support terrorism because of the Koran: I make no such claim on my website, although I would agree with it, as anyone else would if they sat down and read the WHOLE Koran, rather than little fragments that are taken here and there, especially exploited by the media saying that Islam is peaceful. However, that is one thing I would not want to prove to Muslims. If they themselves believe terrorism is wrong, then why would I want to convince them otherwise? They should be peaceful, so I'm not going to try to change their minds.
I'm not even going to go into showing you the verses on it, for there are too many, and it would just be a waste of much of my needed time, for you yourself can just go the Koran and see for yourself - it's not hard to see. One similarity between Islam and "Christianity" is that both their institutions are known in history for using militaristic violence upon their counterparts. For instance, the Crusades on the "Christian" part. What is the difference though? The two religions' respective leaders either taught this type of domination or they condemned it. Islam's followers killed by command of Mohammed, yet Christ's followers did, I concede, however, despite the example and teachings of Christ. Lets read our history and take account to Mohammed's example, and also the his antithesis, the example of Jesus Christ. TRUE followers of Christ "pray for their enemies and those that persecute them, and bless them that curse them." TRUE followers of Mohammed "slay them wherever they find them." One has to look at the true model of one's religion, namely the founders, not the followers of the religion that act as bad examples to one's own confessions.
This subject surely is a deep pool to jump into, especially before one hasn't had swimming lessons in their own doctrine.
Thank you again for your honest objections and constructive criticism to the material I endorse on my site. Mature dialogues and deep prayer and sincerity for the truth and for the love of the only wise God are what will help us to be productive in our search. To have to research and answer serious questions helps me to learn more. Thank you for being the resistance of gravity that exercises my spiritual muscles. I hope that I could be the same for you.
In sincere love of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
Brian Lucero
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Dialogue to be continued...
