Interview with someone from the computer underground

SecretSatanMan, who can be reached at: dm_x@hotmail.com, has been in the Hacker/cracker communities for about 8 years now, and is of the more skilled hackers/Crackers. Here is a conversation we recently had.
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Please note: Mainly due to the nature of the Scene we have kept the identity of the person we interviewed to ourselves. Sie has identified hirself only as "SecretSatanMan" for the purpose of this interview.
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SilverFox:
Most people when thinking of computer underground assume "hackers". Could you maybe define what the underground (computer) fringe really is.

SecretSatanMan:
Those are 2 different things and hacker is the wrong word. First off let me say that a hacker is a person who "hacks" code, an example would be a Linux user who changes the code to fit his/her needs.

SilverFox:
So a "hacker" is not a person that breaks into other people's computers and steals stuff.

SecretSatanMan:
That is a "cracker" which is also a person who breaks into copyrighted code so crack it (AKA to break it's copy protection)

SilverFox:
Thank you, that is helpful. So is there such a thing as a hacker community?

SecretSatanMan:
Yes there is, and a good hacker community website is www.linux.org

SilverFox:
...Crackers I would think would normally not be endorsed by any of the communities?

SecretSatanMan:
wrong ... they are kinda....nothing is "endorsed."

SilverFox:
I see...so what is the "computer underground" ? Is that the right word, or is it called differently?

SecretSatanMan:
the "computer underground" is basically illegal software/breaking of software / breaking codes / just doing stuff that would be not legal in some parts of the world.

SilverFox:
Which group would be the ones that would who know security, the ones who study computers and such? The ones who..I really don't know almost anything about this...
Like for example which community is your friend probably be a part of..

SecretSatanMan:
My friend part of?..ummm......"newbie"

SilverFox:
so do all of these, the crackers, the hackers and those who study computers, do they all belong to the same community?

SecretSatanMan:
no...

SilverFox:
so you have three or maybe even more community types? The Cracker who steals and breaks in which is mostly illegal. Then the Hacker who alters their own code to their needs which is legal. And then the Newbie who...

SecretSatanMan:
The newbie thing was a joke...

SilverFox:
oh ok..so it's basically two communities then?

SecretSatanMan:
basically.

SilverFox:
So which ones are the ones who visit places like 2600?

SecretSatanMan:
both, but primarily the crackers.....The best crackers are also hackers.

SilverFox:
How often does it happen that the best crackers are also hackers and why do you think this is. (especially since hacking your own code is legal, most forms of cracking are not).

SecretSatanMan:
it's just because how can you know how to crack something if you don't have it? not everyone can afford
a $2,500 piece of software


SilverFox:
To slightly change focus here. What are your thoughts on Script kiddies? Are they a part of any of those communities, or are they frowned upon or called wannabes?

SecretSatanMan:
yeap wannabes ... we laugh and make their life hell.
they don't care enough to learn ... so we make they wish they did when they had the chance.

SilverFox:
Do Script kiddies have their own communities, or do they constantly try to get into the other communities and calling themselves things they are not?

SecretSatanMan:
first off, script kiddies claim to be the one's who stop the "bad" not real crackers, which THEY are.
So really they are just stopping other script kiddies then the 2nd one....they also try and make their
own communities, just to seem like their important..... mostly we take those down.

SilverFox:
Ok. Do you wanna explain the differences between the cracking that script kiddies do, versus the types that the more advanced crackers/hackers do?

SecretSatanMan:
script kiddies don't do anything, they use pre-made programs to crack...we just do the others by hand or by programs....the ones which are done by hand are all hard....

SilverFox:
So basically the difference between the script kiddies and the real ones are that the kiddies always use programs...?

SecretSatanMan:
yes

SilverFox:
and I bet the crackers are the ones who design the programs that the script kiddies use?

SecretSatanMan:
basically

SilverFox:
Since I know it is virtually impossible to prevent the more advanced types of cracking, such as core cracking, what are
some of the basic security tips you would be willing to offer to people to protect themselves from script kiddies or lower forms of cracking?
I mean other then not using "password" as a password

SecretSatanMan:
lol - don't advertise...don't say your box is un breakable.....don't piss people off.... and don't use things you don't know what they do unless someone trusted tells you to.

SilverFox:
So basically don't play bait to them, don't entice them..another question actually tying in a bit with enticing...what drives a hacker/cracker to do such things in the first place? What motivations do you commonly hear about. What was your motivation for getting involved with it?

SecretSatanMan:
don't know why I did but normally I guess it something you are good at, and someone say's you can't.... like if you said your box can't be hacked..... gives me more reason to try to do it.

SilverFox:
How much does the curiosity factor have to do with it? What about ones ego?

SecretSatanMan:
it is mostly curiosity..........some ego...most curiosity though...

SilverFox:
I would think if someone said "you can't do this, this is too advanced" it may streak your ego if you did manage to do it;)

SecretSatanMan:
yeap

SilverFox:
so it's curiosity, ego and trying to get practice;).

SecretSatanMan:
yeap

SilverFox:
I see...so it is rather competitive in those communities? A lot of strive and individualism? Do you guys ever work together, or is it more like 1000 individuals?

SecretSatanMan:
we do both, both together as a group (this mostly) and individuals....

SilverFox:
Do you often like try to crack EACH others work, or is there a sort of like honor code present there to prevent that?

SecretSatanMan:
Yes we try and crack each others work...only because if someone can crack it ... it isn't great work....and then we improve on it.

SilverFox:
How friendly are those communities to newbies?

SecretSatanMan:
lol...we normally don't talk to newbies.

SilverFox:
So unless you are seasoned it would be wise to stay away from the communities...how can someone learn then to GET into the communities?

SecretSatanMan:
by proving you have something that the group needs.

SilverFox:
I venture to guess such communities are highly secretive/quiet about it, unless they are fakers?

SecretSatanMan:
right. We don't go down to the local shop and put up banners.

SilverFox:
I would not have thought so...that's would be contrary to the meaning of "underground" I can see the banners now...."hacker/cracker community bake sale and social - 07/06/02" ;).

SecretSatanMan:
yea. The warez part of the underground does do stuff like that sometimes

SilverFox:
you say the folks who do the warez stuff do the whole bakesale and social things.,..can you explain that? I heard warez were things which is like bootlegged copies of software...something highly illegal

SecretSatanMan:
right ... very illegal.....they sometimes advertise it...not because it helps, but because whoever has something before someone else, is usually revered for a bit

SilverFox:
Are those also a part of the Hacker/cracker communities?

SecretSatanMan:
Yes...... warez fit in the cracker part.

SilverFox:
So how much on the fringe would crackers/hackers be considered. I know many from other commuinites are or have been in the cracker/hacker community, but no one ever really gives any info about it. Is there a lot of overlap between the hacker/cracker community, the pagans, the kins, the weres and vampires and the gothic communities?

SecretSatanMan:
not really.... We try not to say anything.... We don't care if your just "GOD"..... we do our job and that's it.

SilverFox:
So if there is an overlap, we wouldn't know about it cause no one there cares about outside beliefs? Is that it?

SecretSatanMan:
basically ... unless your outside beliefs may help in anyway with the current project.

SilverFox:
You keep talking about projects and jobs...what do you mean with that?

SecretSatanMan:
jobs....projects, just what we decide that we will do...one such that is frequent..... we are cracking SQL databases that have 128 bit encryption. We call each one a job, in the whole thing is a project.

SilverFox:
Who decides these jobs? Are there like leaders and such in your communities? Or is it anyone may make others
aware of projects and such they get either ignored or done?

SecretSatanMan:
the jobs are controlled either by who has more experience, who we vote for or who found the job to do. And yes there are leaders.....

SilverFox:
I'm sure that if the project is too easy it will probably be discarded. I heard you all are into challenges...

SecretSatanMan:
right we go for the hard ones...

SilverFox:
Are there like any movies or books which speak true of the hacker/cracker communities?

SecretSatanMan:
some

SilverFox:
Would you be willing to name some of them for me?

SecretSatanMan:
mostly there help book for system admins....

SilverFox:
Hmm since the way such a community is, you probably have your fair share of problems with the police. Like, I forgot his name, but the famous cracker that was jailed, whose case got covered extensively in 2600.

SecretSatanMan:
usually the people who get caught are not the people who did the best "jobs" they usually the one's who make the biggest news story. The best of the best don't get jailed......the are kinda made to work for the us gov.

SilverFox:
So the best of the best are actually HIRED by the government?

SecretSatanMan:
I never said hired. It's more of that's better than any other offer,

SilverFox:
Oh basically so "you work for the government or you get jailed kinda deal?"

SecretSatanMan:
yeap...and those are the "lucky" ones

SilverFox:
THAT is harsh. No wonder you guys are very secretive.
I keep hearing people saying the one famous jailed guy was innocent. How often do they get "innocents" rather then the people who really did the attacks.

SecretSatanMan:
most of the time...because we can't get caught usually

SilverFox:
Since crackers tend have problems with the law, how do most hackers that don't crack feel about so many people confusing crackers with them and calling them criminals?

SecretSatanMan:
They can get really pissed, but they just tell people what is up.

SilverFox:
In a slightly related note, are communities like linux.org and other communities which are hacker places trying to do
things about their bad reputation? If so what are they doing about it?

SecretSatanMan:
they really don't say anything either way, if you don't acknowledge the problem it's not there

SilverFox:
Someone I know said sie never heard of a hacker/cracker that hated corporate America, the all the big corporations, those people that own them and work for them. What are your thoughts on corporate America?

SecretSatanMan:
corp......suck

SilverFox:
Why?

SecretSatanMan:
they control us

SilverFox:
I would love to talk more, but we should probably wrap it up. So one last Question. Where else then Linux.org can our readers get more information about the hacker communities, the cracker communities and things surrounding those. Especially
as I know most people in the communities are not willing to give info openly, and I don't think script kiddies
or news stories should be consulted if people wish for any sort of accuracy.

SecretSatanMan:
look for anything dealing with Open source software, the gnu project(www.gnu.org) is a really good example-

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SilverFox really didn't know anything about hackers or the underground computer communities before talking to SecretSatanMan.