Oops my mistake. This should have read:

Weeknights 6pm: Star Trek - the original series. Again.

Weeknights 8pm: Streetmate. Zzzzz.

Plus Chained, Borat, Shipwrecked and....

Saturday at 9pm: Porn Night.

Fuckwits, fuckwits, fuckwits.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Mike4SOTCAA on Tue Jul 24 17:50:40 BST 2001:

Before everyone starts chipping in with whimsy and off-topic bon mots, can anyone offer a serious explanation why Justin's fantasy schedule couldn't become a reality? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Jon on Tue Jul 24 17:59:53 BST 2001:

Because if that was the real schedule, they'd blow virtually all the decent entertainment that C4 has created in 20-odd years, and have to play unending filler for 6 months after. Unless you'd like it all to go on a continuous loop... Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Tue Jul 24 18:06:37 BST 2001:

>Because if that was the real schedule, they'd blow virtually all the decent entertainment that C4 has created in 20-odd years, and have to play unending filler for 6 months after. Unless you'd like it all to go on a continuous loop...

Even two or three of my suggestions would be a start. Besides current E4 practice is to run their programming on a continuous loop in any case.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Mike4SOTCAA on Tue Jul 24 18:12:49 BST 2001:

Next! Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Tue Jul 24 18:21:22 BST 2001:

And anyway, there's a list of stuff from the C4 archives that could easily fill what is essentially a six-hour schedule. The Big One, S&M, Chelmsford 123, Dream On, This Is David Harper, Harry Hill, Play At Home, Jack And Jeremy's Real Lives, Mr Don & Mr George, The Thing Is..., GBH, King Of The Hill, Porterhouse Blue, and a ton of other stuff that's either disappeared or been forgotten about. Is it all great stuff? Some of it is, some of it might be. I'd like to decide for myself. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 18:28:34 BST 2001:

>Before everyone starts chipping in with whimsy and off-topic bon mots, can anyone offer a serious explanation why Justin's fantasy schedule couldn't become a reality?

I would suggest two reasons. The first one is the practical one:

1) Clearance. You'd have to spend a lot of time and money getting the clearance to use any of that stuff. It'd be down to legal beagles and accountants and that's all. Plus, presumably, one person sifting through the archives for programmes to show.

2) E4 isn't Channel Four Gold and was never set up to be. It's original programming and first-chance-to-see stuff, plus all the interactive palaver of which I am a part.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Bent Halo on Tue Jul 24 18:31:05 BST 2001:

Nightingales, documentary series like Without Walls, Dispatches, Equinox, Traffik until we're all dead, a vast music archive... Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Mike4SOTCAA on Tue Jul 24 18:39:05 BST 2001:

Three things:

1) The clearance problems also apply to the stuff channels like Grananda Plus et al *do* show, and they don't have too many problems (from Richard O'Sullivan's accountants etc). Also, if they're worried about paying people to go through the archives, there are plenty of people on this forum who would do it for free.

2) Why does a glib 'that's just the way it is' attitude infest TV people over situations like this, rather than a determination to change things for the better?

3) Why *isn't* there a C4 Gold?
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 18:48:40 BST 2001:

>1) The clearance problems also apply to the stuff channels like Grananda Plus et al *do* show, and they don't have too many problems (from Richard O'Sullivan's accountants etc).

It's a different deal over at the Granada Media empire who, in effect, have bought up all the production companies who made the shows in the first place (i.e. the regions of ITV). C4 doesn't own the programmes it makes, it merely buys a license to broadcast them (over a period of years, including repeats) a certain number of times. Similarly, any discussion about repeats would go right back to the original contracts.

>Also, if they're worried about paying people to go through the archives, there are plenty of people on this forum who would do it for free.

Of course there are. There are plenty of people who are prepared to work at the BBC for free, too. It doesn't mean they're the best people for the job. (And, no, I'm not suggesting that I am either. If I thought that, I'd be working in a tape library somewhere. I'm about to expand on this point.) And, anyway, I wasn't implying that this was a stumbling block to E4 becoming a channel full of repeats.

>2) Why does a glib 'that's just the way it is' attitude infest TV people over situations like this, rather than a determination to change things for the better?

I'm not entirely sure you can accuse me of being glib based on point two. I'm trying to point out that you're comparing apples and oranges.

>3) Why *isn't* there a C4 Gold?

Very simply because it wouldn't make money.

Cheerio
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'ollie' on Tue Jul 24 18:53:25 BST 2001:

a schedule like that would be popular with this forum but probably wouldn't attract advertisers. just look at the (mostly) crap they put on granada plus or uk gold, a c4 gold channel would be exactly the same. on the subject of paramount, can any one explain why the put 'married with children' on every fucking night? it's one of the worst things i've ever seen, there are american and british shows of infintely higher quality. the same goes for 'mad about you'. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 19:16:00 BST 2001:

Solution: because we are an odd lot with odd tastes, compared to the majority of people. Most members of the Great British Public prefer Ally McBeal to Groovy Fellers. You must have met some of them - awful people. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Mike4SOTCAA on Tue Jul 24 19:28:57 BST 2001:

So what's your advice, Steve? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 19:45:39 BST 2001:

>So what's your advice, Steve?

Either:

Persuade the companies to offer up their archive (on the web?) for little return (i.e. on the web), or

Set up a video/DVD distribution company and persuade the companies to offer up their archive for you to sell to the public. You, of course, will make very little money from this venture.

Actually, that second one isn't as impossible as it sounds, but you're gambling on a return from the buying public. That means marketing, etc.

(Also, if you can prove there's a demand for a show - demonstrable sell through sales - then your advice would be taken more seriously by the broadcasters when it comes to repeats/releases.)

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 19:56:44 BST 2001:

I think, long term, the solution is bootlegging on a massive scale. Someone who likes comedy should infiltrate the archives as an employee, mpeg all the above mentioned classics and put them on bearshare and other Napster successors.

And don't say "But this will take away the vital funding that allows these sorts of programmes to be made in the first place," because (a) it's the fight for funding that is effectively stopping those specific programmes being repeated and (b) those sorts of programmes aren't being made anymore anyway. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Ewar Woowar on Tue Jul 24 19:56:46 BST 2001:

Neither of those solutions address the real issue, though, which is that Channel 4 had a specific remit to offer a commercial alternative to ITV, and the quality and range of the programmes was more important than their profitability. Which programmes are repeated shouldn't depend on ratings. This wouldn't be such an issue if the programmes currently being commissioned by C4 and E4 weren't so bloody shit. Repeating good quality old shows would redress the balance. Unfortunately for C4 commissioners it would also highlight the poor quality of their current output and they could no longer claim that things are just as good as they used to be. Channel 4 DID used to be better. It DID.

By the way, if E4 is about "new" programmes why are they showing Star Trek? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Ewar Woowar on Tue Jul 24 19:58:04 BST 2001:

>Neither of those solutions address the real issue, though,

I meant the solutions offered by Steve. Musft type fastre. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 20:11:49 BST 2001:

>Neither of those solutions address the real issue, though, which is that Channel 4 had a specific remit to offer a commercial alternative to ITV, and the quality and range of the programmes was more important than their profitability.

My solutions were offered with relation to "Why isn't there a Channel Four Gold?" not the current quality/profitability of the channel. You yourself, however, use the word "commercial" in identifying the kind of channel that C4 should/was/is. There are commercial realities that come into play.

>Which programmes are repeated shouldn't depend on ratings.

But ratings on an advertising-funded channel do matter. Which programmes are repeated are chosen more due to outlay/revenue decisions. I don't see that this is a bad thing.

>This wouldn't be such an issue if the programmes currently being commissioned by C4 and E4 weren't so bloody shit. Repeating good quality old shows would redress the balance.

I think it's all down to personal taste. I personally believe that a lot of the Comic Strip stuff doesn't stand up to repeating, even though I loved it as a child. I'm not sure what kind of balance you think needs addressing. How many old shows have to be repeated before the ones you believe are shit are cancelled out? Or is it better to spend money on new, better shows?

For example, was the TV Channel Four was producing in 1987 better or worse (on balance) than the stuff it was making in 1982? Is there, therefore, an argument to say that the commissioning editors in 1987 should have spent money on repeat fees of 1982 stuff rather than making new stuff? How about in 1995? So why now?

>Unfortunately for C4 commissioners it would also highlight the poor quality of their current output and they could no longer claim that things are just as good as they used to be. Channel 4 DID used to be better. It DID.

No it didn't, it was just different. With the benefit of hindsight, you can forget the stuff that was shit then. The memory cheats, it DOES.

>By the way, if E4 is about "new" programmes why are they showing Star Trek?

I would have thought anyone with an inkling of the 'Trek canon and TV commissioning practices would be able to make an educated guess why.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 20:15:22 BST 2001:

Steve, everything you've just said underlines the fact that for a lot of the material held dear by us, there is no commercial excuse for repeating it, and there is unlikely ever to be. Let me put this simply: it will never make good business sense to show Absolutely ever again.

So why not stick the lot on the Internet? It's not making any money for anyone stuck in the archives is it? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 20:19:51 BST 2001:

>So why not stick the lot on the Internet? It's not making any money for anyone stuck in the archives is it?

By which I mean, make it legally okay for others to do the hosting. (Those who appreciate it.) Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 20:20:04 BST 2001:

>So why not stick the lot on the Internet? It's not making any money for anyone stuck in the archives is it?

I thought that's why I suggested. The people you need to go to are Absolutely, not C4. If Absolutely say otherwise, then I'll eat my hat.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 20:20:46 BST 2001:

Well, there we are then. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 20:21:14 BST 2001:

>So why not stick the lot on the Internet? It's not making any money for anyone stuck in the archives is it?

Incidentally, it's not going to make any money on the Internet, is it? Aaaaaaaah! Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 20:22:22 BST 2001:

>>So why not stick the lot on the Internet? It's not making any money for anyone stuck in the archives is it?
>
>Incidentally, it's not going to make any money on the Internet, is it? Aaaaaaaah!

Which, incidentally, would be an argument against digitising costs, hosting costs, etc. I think your best bet is a DVD/video release.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 20:23:41 BST 2001:

>>So why not stick the lot on the Internet? It's not making any money for anyone stuck in the archives is it?
>
>Incidentally, it's not going to make any money on the Internet, is it? Aaaaaaaah!

Precisely my point - it won't make any difference.

Anyway, the ridiculous thing is that if every epsiode of Absolutely was repeated in the right order (calm down Justin... blimey, look at the size of...), then the entire nation could (if they could be arsed) make their own copy. The Internet is no more prone to copyright theft than TV is. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 20:24:29 BST 2001:

>>>So why not stick the lot on the Internet? It's not making any money for anyone stuck in the archives is it?
>>
>>Incidentally, it's not going to make any money on the Internet, is it? Aaaaaaaah!
>
>Which, incidentally, would be an argument against digitising costs, hosting costs, etc. I think your best bet is a DVD/video release.

That's why I made a point of mentioning that other people would be happy to do the hosting. They would, too.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 20:26:09 BST 2001:

>Precisely my point - it won't make any difference.

Well, it would to the people who look after IPR and that. Like, if you had an asset and you thought that maybe one day you could make some money out of it, you wouldn't ditch it, would you? Y'know, like the Beeb did way back when. You'd keep hold of it, just in case. You wouldn't give it away for now't. Less than that would you spend time digitising and money for hosting.

>Anyway, the ridiculous thing is that if every epsiode of Absolutely was repeated in the right order (calm down Justin... blimey, look at the size of...), then the entire nation could (if they could be arsed) make their own copy. The Internet is no more prone to copyright theft than TV is.

Indeed. Got my VCR set for Thursday night.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 20:37:12 BST 2001:

Can I just, for the record, state that these are my own opinions and not necessarily the viewpoint of the channel I work for.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 20:40:56 BST 2001:

>>Precisely my point - it won't make any difference.
>
>Well, it would to the people who look after IPR and that. Like, if you had an asset and you thought that maybe one day you could make some money out of it, you wouldn't ditch it, would you? Y'know, like the Beeb did way back when. You'd keep hold of it, just in case. You wouldn't give it away for now't.

Yes, yes, of course, I'm ahead of you Johnny, baby I'm so far ahead it's beautiful. To summarise the insanity of the situation: we can't put the programme on the Internet (thus allowing about 30% of the population to copy it freely) because we are waiting for it to be commercially reasonable to show it on television (thus allowing about 90% of the population to copy it freely), not that that will ever happen anyway, so we're just going to keep paying the rent on a big shed to keep all the old tapes in. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Tue Jul 24 20:41:43 BST 2001:

>I think it's all down to personal taste. I personally believe that a lot of the Comic Strip stuff doesn't stand up to repeating, even though I loved it as a child.

<sighs>...shows you what we're dealing with.

>I'm not sure what kind of balance you think needs addressing.

How about "a channel that isn't desperately repeating itself with paper-thin first-run tat"?

>How many old shows have to be repeated before the ones you believe are shit are cancelled out?

Many thousands, as far as I'm concerned.

Or is it better to spend money on new, better shows?
>
Define 'better'. Banzai? Show Me The Funny? I beg to differ.

>For example, was the TV Channel Four was producing in 1987 better or worse (on balance) than the stuff it was making in 1982? Is there, therefore, an argument to say that the commissioning editors in 1987 should have spent money on repeat fees of 1982 stuff rather than making new stuff? How about in 1995? So why now?

Because there is no longer any passion in programme makers, and especially those who commission this stuff. And don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about just because I don't work in the media. You can see it on the screen, believe me.


>No it didn't, it was just different. With the benefit of hindsight, you can forget the stuff that was shit then. The memory cheats, it DOES.

See also TV Cream...

>>By the way, if E4 is about "new" programmes why are they showing Star Trek?
>
>I would have thought anyone with an inkling of the 'Trek canon and TV commissioning practices would be able to make an educated guess why.

Because E4 has no imagination.

I wasn't even suggesting that E4 was supposed to be a Gold channel. Just thought it would be nice to have some brilliant and innovative programmes aired, rather than a lot of idiotic semi-documentaries and sub-Morris guffing about. The one and only old show exhumed for E4 is The Word, and I'll bet it's not because of the bands, but because of women drowning in horseshit. Facking hilarious, or what?

Oh, and don't assume that the best people to work in archives already work there. There are people on this site who know far more than you could imagine. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 20:45:11 BST 2001:

>There are people on this site who know far more than you could imagine.

There is a fly in the ointment of the old "infiltrate by getting a job" thing, which is that none of us could pass the rigorous archvin' exams. They're very rigorous, the archvin' exams. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 20:46:33 BST 2001:

>Cheerio

"Cheerio," said the forum, and waved sadly at their friend as he was put back in the manacles and dragged back up to the top of the E4 tower. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Dr. Hackenbush on Tue Jul 24 21:06:49 BST 2001:

>>So why not stick the lot on the Internet? It's not making any money for anyone stuck in the archives is it?
>
>By which I mean, make it legally okay for others to do the hosting. (Those who >appreciate it.)

If I were the copyright holder for Absolutely (or whatever), I would be reluctant to give away the electronic rights to all my shows to fansites because there *might* be some way to make money from it in the future. I'm not saying that's right, but that's what the suits would think (if they thought about it at all, which they probably haven't).

I don't think that fansites hosting full episodes would necessarily be a good solution anyway.

To expand on the latter point first: bandwidth costs money. SOTCAA and Cookd and Bombd do a sterling job of archiving comedy for free, but you'd probably have more people downloading whole episodes of Absolutely than the smaller, more esoteric clips they deal in. One article in the Observer, a few days heavy traffic and either you're kicked off JANET (and, let's face it, we've all been forcibly removed from her at one point, eh fellas?) or you have a big bill from your ISP.
Or, you have the Gnutella/Freenet etc. model, but I'm not convinced either of these is going to reliably serve big files (maybe I'm wrong about this). Also, you lose some of the 'archival' aspect - fanatic fans who are looking for this stuff might have the persistence to find it, but the casual punter will be less likely to discover it than if it was available from absolutely.net with some essays on how great it was, clips of shows that influenced it, interesting rushes, edit news etc. And it would be good if new people could be introduced to it via the exciting new medium of "interweb pictures".
So an amateur distribution system wouldn't be ideal.

To go back to my point about not wanting to give away the rights - I think there is hope. Maybe when more people have fast internet connections, and everyone is using something like Paypal, the people at Absolutely will realise that they can charge a couple of quid an episode. Of course, they wouldn't have to run the site themselves, they could sell it through a "comedy aggregator".
Imagine if SOTCAA had all the stuff it did now, except that every time Mike mentioned how great an obscure 60s TV show called "The Rolf Bracket Hour" was, you could click on a link to download the relevant clip, with the option to buy the whole show for a couple of quid. Imagine if you could buy the first series of TMWRNJ and know that the profits would go to the Richard Herring Audio-Visual Equipment and Kinder Eggs Fund. Imagine if all the stuff that Justin mentioned was available to buy as well.

That would be top. Not saying it'll happen, though. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 21:08:46 BST 2001:

>That would be top. Not saying it'll happen, though.

Oh, please promise it will, promise promise promise promise! Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 21:50:30 BST 2001:

>Oh, and don't assume that the best people to work in archives already work there. There are people on this site who know far more than you could imagine.

You know, this makes you sound like Obi Wan Kenobi. Those people who know so much would be well advised to work in the media, then, wouldn't they?

Then they could actually do something about it.

I'm not going to get into this circular argument with you again, Justin. Let's just say you think a lot of the output on Channel Four is shite and I think that less of it is and leave it at that, eh? No matter how hard and fast you type, or how loud you shout, I'm not likely to change my mind, am I?

That's what you're dealing with.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Dr. Hackenbush on Tue Jul 24 21:52:18 BST 2001:

>>That would be top. Not saying it'll happen, though.
>
>Oh, please promise it will, promise promise promise promise!

And when it does happen, the company that owns it all will be AOL-TimeWarner-Disney-Coke and you'll only be able to buy Chris Rock videos anyway. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 21:56:22 BST 2001:

>>>That would be top. Not saying it'll happen, though.
>>
>>Oh, please promise it will, promise promise promise promise!
>
>And when it does happen, the company that owns it all will be AOL-TimeWarner-Disney-Coke and you'll only be able to buy Chris Rock videos anyway.

Well, it's a blummin' ruddy good job everyone likes the great taste of Coke, isn't it? Not to mention the marvelous savage darkie type humour of Chris Rock. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Tue Jul 24 22:08:03 BST 2001:

>>Oh, and don't assume that the best people to work in archives already work there. There are people on this site who know far more than you could imagine.
>
>You know, this makes you sound like Obi Wan Kenobi. Those people who know so much would be well advised to work in the media, then, wouldn't they?

Do you work in the media, Steve?
>
>Then they could actually do something about it.
>
>I'm not going to get into this circular argument with you again, Justin.

No, you're not, because you know when you're beaten.

>Let's just say you think a lot of the output on Channel Four is shite and I think that less of it is and leave it at that, eh?

Or alternatively: Channel 4 DID used to be better. It DID.

>No matter how hard and fast you type, or how loud you shout, I'm not likely to change my mind, am I?

You see that as a strength, don't you?

>That's what you're dealing with.

Has anyone ever told you you're a model of mediocrity?
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 22:09:24 BST 2001:

>>I would have thought anyone with an inkling of the 'Trek canon and TV commissioning practices would be able to make an educated guess why.
>
>Because E4 has no imagination.

Missing the point since 1995. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 22:12:50 BST 2001:

>Do you work in the media, Steve?

Yes. What's your point?

>No, you're not, because you know when you're beaten.

No, Justin, because my dad is bigger than your dad.

>You see that as a strength, don't you?

It's a fact, Justin, that's all.

>Has anyone ever told you you're a model of mediocrity?

No. Well, not to my face. But then the company I keep, well, y' know...

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Tom Adams on Tue Jul 24 22:15:08 BST 2001:

Could I ask you to put the commentators on Football Italia in the actual ground? That's bloody annoying, that is. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 22:17:17 BST 2001:

>Could I ask you to put the commentators on Football Italia in the actual ground? That's bloody annoying, that is.

It's on my list of "Things Wrong With Channel Four To Put Right", don't worry.

I'll sort it once my profile as a media person is suitably large.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Tue Jul 24 22:17:45 BST 2001:

>>Do you work in the media, Steve?
>
>Yes. What's your point?

Your previous point implies that you deserve to be working in it. Hm.
>
>>No, you're not, because you know when you're beaten.
>
>No, Justin, because my dad is bigger than your dad.

One of your better arguments.
>
>>You see that as a strength, don't you?
>
>It's a fact, Justin, that's all.
>
You don't understand what your opponents are getting at. You're using your own brand of selective memory to boost your own ego as "a media person".

>>Has anyone ever told you you're a model of mediocrity?
>
>No. Well, not to my face.

Does this have no legitimacy in print then?


Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Tom Adams on Tue Jul 24 22:18:29 BST 2001:

That's two feuds I've defused. Wicked. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Gregg' on Tue Jul 24 22:21:46 BST 2001:

>a schedule like that would be popular with
>this forum but probably wouldn't attract
>advertisers. just look at the (mostly) crap
>they put on granada plus or uk gold, a c4
>gold channel would be exactly the same.

As you say, it probably wouldn't attract advertisers. But that's because advertisers are idiots. They have never been properly attracted to UK Gold - yet UK Gold does a lot better than Sky 1 (as far as I can guage, anyway).

Of course, repeats of great old series on E4 aren't going to be the ratings winners that the US imports are - but they would do better than souless crap like 'Streetmate' and 'Shipwrecked'.

But I wouldn't want them to go with Justin's schedule - because then I might be forced to reconsider my decision to never, ever, ever get E4. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Beelzebub' on Tue Jul 24 22:24:23 BST 2001:

>That's two feuds I've defused. Wicked.

That'll look good on your CV - 'Feud Defuser'

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Gregg' on Tue Jul 24 22:25:15 BST 2001:

>>So what's your advice, Steve?
<snip>
>(Also, if you can prove there's a demand
>for a show - demonstrable sell through
>sales - then your advice would be taken
>more seriously by the broadcasters when it
>comes to repeats/releases.)

Or we could just become broadcasters ourselves. Enter the industry, work our way, get into a position of power, and then hold a little revolution and tell all the post-Grade, neo-Thatcherite, "fly-on-the-wall", trendy wankers to piss off and let the talent come back. (This is not aimed at you, Steve - I don't know who you are or what you do beyond working at a prod. co. that supplies C4.)

And before someone chimes in with it being difficult or impossible for such a person to get/keep such a job, it's simple - you get the job by lying and pretending to conform to the status quo, and keep it by demonstrating that your way gets bigger ratings (and I'm convinced that it would). Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 22:28:41 BST 2001:

>Or we could just become broadcasters ourselves. Enter the industry, work our way, get into a position of power, and then hold a little revolution and tell all the post-Grade, neo-Thatcherite, "fly-on-the-wall", trendy wankers to piss off and let the talent come back. (This is not aimed at you, Steve - I don't know who you are or what you do beyond working at a prod. co. that supplies C4.)

Actually, I'm Comedy Editor at C4 Interactive and, thus, clearly one of the first against the wall when Justin's revolution comes.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 22:32:47 BST 2001:

>You don't understand what your opponents are getting at. You're using your own brand of selective memory to boost your own ego as "a media person".

No, I'm not. I hope I'm displaying an awareness of the commercial realities of broadcasting. Clearly you disagree but, as I said, you're not going to persuade me that I don't know what I'm talking about. Similarly, I'm not going to be able to persuade you that you don't know what you're talking about. Thus, I think, it's a worthless and circular argument.

>>>Has anyone ever told you you're a model of mediocrity?
>>
>>No. Well, not to my face.
>
>Does this have no legitimacy in print then?

It's your opinion, I'm guessing. That's all.

I have to say that you do have a knack of turning discussion into namecalling, Justin, and, to be frank, it doesn't do you any favours either.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 22:37:54 BST 2001:

>>>Do you work in the media, Steve?
>>
>>Yes. What's your point?
>
>Your previous point implies that you deserve to be working in it. Hm.

I don't think I did imply that. What I implied was that if someone knows so much about TV then they should put it to good use.

I love TV. I have since I was very small. I worked my arse off to get into TV (you can have my CV if you want) and I enjoy it now that I am. I've had plenty of disappointing experiences on the way but I'm now doing something I enjoy very much. Whether or not I "deserve" to work in TV is another matter.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 22:42:40 BST 2001:

>Because if that was the real schedule, they'd blow virtually all the decent entertainment that C4 has created in 20-odd years, and have to play unending filler for 6 months after. Unless you'd like it all to go on a continuous loop...

What if they were mixing it in with good new programming though? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 22:47:42 BST 2001:

>2) E4 isn't Channel Four Gold and was never set up to be. It's original programming and first-chance-to-see stuff, plus all the interactive palaver of which I am a part.

I would say that I concede that it is original in the sense of being 'new' programming, but it isn't even that. A sizeable proportion of E4's 'output' is straight repeats of material that has already been shown on Channel 4 within the last couple of years (or, mostly, months), or else material that is about to be shown on Channel 4 within a matter of weeks anyway.

As for the thought that it could be considered 'original' as in the sense of being imaginative, forward-thinking programming, no.

Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Caroline' on Tue Jul 24 22:52:51 BST 2001:

E4 are soon showing "Freaks and Geeks" though, which is a great show. They showed this on Irish TV, and it's awesome. A high point of recent American television, I would say.

Mostly written, directed and produced by Judd Apatow, who mostly wrote, directed and produced "The Larry Sanders Show".
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 22:52:59 BST 2001:

>It's a different deal over at the Granada Media empire who, in effect, have bought up all the production companies who made the shows in the first place (i.e. the regions of ITV).

This would still leave several important key aspects of clearance untackled, though, so the above argument is flawed and hardly applicable.

>Of course there are. There are plenty of people who are prepared to work at the BBC for free, too. It doesn't mean they're the best people for the job.

No, but neither does the fact that they might be being paid to do it. Another flawed argument.

>>3) Why *isn't* there a C4 Gold?
>
>Very simply because it wouldn't make money.

And how much money does E4 make?


Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:01:34 BST 2001:

>My solutions were offered with relation to "Why isn't there a Channel Four Gold?" not the current quality/profitability of the channel. You yourself, however, use the word "commercial" in identifying the kind of channel that C4 should/was/is. There are commercial realities that come into play.

But the word 'alternative' was also used, and that is being roundly ignored by Channel 4 at present, and by you. There is scarce evidence of anything that could genuinely be called an 'alternative' in Channel 4 at the moment. One new episode of Brass Eye does not an alternative make.

>But ratings on an advertising-funded channel do matter. Which programmes are repeated are chosen more due to outlay/revenue decisions. I don't see that this is a bad thing.

I do. Weak, substandard output being repeated because people are stupid enough to watch it twice because they don't have the imagination to do anything else (like, say, go for a walk) may make commercial sense, but it is still a 'bad thing' in the literal definition of the term.

>I think it's all down to personal taste. I personally believe that a lot of the Comic Strip stuff doesn't stand up to repeating, even though I loved it as a child. I'm not sure what kind of balance you think needs addressing. How many old shows have to be repeated before the ones you believe are shit are cancelled out? Or is it better to spend money on new, better shows?

Yes, it's a matter of personal taste, and Big Brother, Borat et al are not to my personal taste. This is an argument that won't hold up.

And show me some evidence that all of this saved money is indeed being spent on new, better shows.

>For example, was the TV Channel Four was producing in 1987 better or worse (on balance) than the stuff it was making in 1982? Is there, therefore, an argument to say that the commissioning editors in 1987 should have spent money on repeat fees of 1982 stuff rather than making new stuff? How about in 1995? So why now?

Now you're just trying to confuse people with a string of disparate dates. This is not relevant.

>No it didn't, it was just different. With the benefit of hindsight, you can forget the stuff that was shit then. The memory cheats, it DOES.

And Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID.

>>By the way, if E4 is about "new" programmes why are they showing Star Trek?
>
>I would have thought anyone with an inkling of the 'Trek canon and TV commissioning practices would be able to make an educated guess why.

Oh for fuck's sake. Answer the question will you. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:08:19 BST 2001:

> To expand on the latter point first: bandwidth costs money. SOTCAA and Cookd and Bombd do a sterling job of archiving comedy for free, but you'd probably have more people downloading whole episodes of Absolutely than the smaller, more esoteric clips they deal in.

Not really related to the main thrust of your argument, but the above is not actually accurate. CaB's hitrate was phenomenal, and I lost count of the number of times the site had its webspace pulled for repeatedly exceeding permitted bandwidth usage.

And Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:10:14 BST 2001:

>I'm not going to get into this circular argument with you again, Justin. Let's just say you think a lot of the output on Channel Four is shite and I think that less of it is and leave it at that, eh? No matter how hard and fast you type, or how loud you shout, I'm not likely to change my mind, am I?
>
>That's what you're dealing with.

What, "please shut up so that it looks as though I've won even though I actually haven't"? Hardly a force to be reckoned with, is it?

Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Bent Halo on Tue Jul 24 23:10:33 BST 2001:

>I personally believe that a lot of the Comic Strip stuff doesn't stand up to repeating, even though I loved it as a child.

I've watched every single one in the past six months and don't see your point. I'll admit there are a handful of below par films, but on the whole it was the model of what C4 was about in its risk-taking past, supporting a show which was always intended to be randomly scheduled and non-sequential.

I know it was an aside, but explaining this in slightly less vague terms would be nice.

And, yes, C4 was a lot better. 1991 for example. Jackson fucked it up. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:11:25 BST 2001:

>I would say that I concede that it is original in the sense of being 'new' programming, but it isn't even that. A sizeable proportion of E4's 'output' is straight repeats of material that has already been shown on Channel 4 within the last couple of years (or, mostly, months), or else material that is about to be shown on Channel 4 within a matter of weeks anyway.

This is, as I mentioned, to do with the statute of limitations on repeats as agreed in the original contracts.

>As for the thought that it could be considered 'original' as in the sense of being imaginative, forward-thinking programming, no.
>Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID.

FYI, C4 schedule for this day in 1991:

17:05 Oprah Winfrey Show
18:00 A Different World
18:30 Tour De France
19:00 C4 News
19:50 Party Political Comment
20:00 Brookside
20:30 Check Out '91 (consumer affairs)
21:00 Women Like Us (Vita Sackville-West - part of the Out On Tuesday season)
22:00 The Golden Girls
22:30 The New Statesman
23:00 Just For Laughs
23:30 Mission Eureka (series about European space station)
01:15 Tour De France

Schedule for today, 2001

18:00 Futurama
18:30 Futurama
19:00 C4 News
19:55 I Believe I Can Fly (Yogic meditation)
20:00 Blinded (documentary on Moorfields hospital)
21:00 Grand Designs II (people building dream houses)
22:00 Big Brother II
22:30 Big Brother Live
22:35 The Secret Life Of Us
22:40 Hobo Train (documentary about women who live on North American railroads)
00:40 Big Brother II (rpt)
01:15 Film: Jefferson In Paris

Cheerio

Steve
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:11:58 BST 2001:

>>>I would have thought anyone with an inkling of the 'Trek canon and TV commissioning practices would be able to make an educated guess why.
>>
>>Because E4 has no imagination.
>
>Missing the point since 1995.

*sighs* well then, tell us what the point _is_.

Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:16:07 BST 2001:

>I have to say that you do have a knack of turning discussion into namecalling, Justin, and, to be frank, it doesn't do you any favours either.

No he doesn't, and yes it does.

Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Rob Jones' on Tue Jul 24 23:17:11 BST 2001:

>Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID.

Isn't this grammatically incorrect? Shurely "Channel 4 was once better. It was."

Hang on, that could be wrong too.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Kettle Chips' on Tue Jul 24 23:18:15 BST 2001:

> Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID.

Fucking hell, what is this? The Moaning Dad Channel? It didn't "used to be better". There's shit and gold everywhere; always has been, always will be.

Dur, dur, my name's TJ, dur dur dur.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:20:26 BST 2001:

>This is, as I mentioned, to do with the statute of limitations on repeats as agreed in the original contracts.

And that, as I will now mention, has nothing whatsoever to do with the point that I was making. My implication was that it is deceitful to claim most of E4's output as 'original' material. You have deliberately gone right around the houses to avoid addressing this point. Why?

>FYI, C4 schedule for this day in 1991:
>
>17:05 Oprah Winfrey Show
>18:00 A Different World
>18:30 Tour De France
>19:00 C4 News
>19:50 Party Political Comment
>20:00 Brookside
>20:30 Check Out '91 (consumer affairs)
>21:00 Women Like Us (Vita Sackville-West - part of the Out On Tuesday season)
>22:00 The Golden Girls
>22:30 The New Statesman
>23:00 Just For Laughs
>23:30 Mission Eureka (series about European space station)
>01:15 Tour De France
>
>Schedule for today, 2001
>
>18:00 Futurama
>18:30 Futurama
>19:00 C4 News
>19:55 I Believe I Can Fly (Yogic meditation)
>20:00 Blinded (documentary on Moorfields hospital)
>21:00 Grand Designs II (people building dream houses)
>22:00 Big Brother II
>22:30 Big Brother Live
>22:35 The Secret Life Of Us
>22:40 Hobo Train (documentary about women who live on North American railroads)
>00:40 Big Brother II (rpt)
>01:15 Film: Jefferson In Paris

Direct comparison of two carefully-chosen schedules relating to two individual evenings won't wash.

Channel 4 DID used to be better, it DID. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:22:02 BST 2001:

>Dur, dur, my name's TJ, dur dur dur.

My god, that's a good argument.

And at least my name isn't 'Kettle Chips'.

Cowardly pseudonym-adopting lurker.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Rob Jones' on Tue Jul 24 23:23:22 BST 2001:

Channel 4 was formerly superior to its current state. It was.

This still sounds a little awkward. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:24:34 BST 2001:

>Direct comparison of two carefully-chosen schedules relating to two individual evenings won't wash.

Hey, TJ. These are CAST IRON examples. Anyway, I didn't pick them carefully. I clicked back through the Outlook-esque software to today in 1991, prompted by Bent Halo's remark above. Does that count as random enough?

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 23:24:42 BST 2001:

>Channel 4 was formerly superior to its current state. It was.
>
>This still sounds a little awkward.

Try it dressed up as a dalek, and finish with "it was... IT WAS! ... IT WAS!" Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:26:09 BST 2001:

>Hey, TJ. These are CAST IRON examples. Anyway, I didn't pick them carefully. I clicked back through the Outlook-esque software to today in 1991, prompted by Bent Halo's remark above. Does that count as random enough?

Avoiding my point again. The notion of whether Channel 4 is better now or was better years ago _inevitably_ needs more analysis than just two schedules representing a single part of a single day each. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Tom Adams on Tue Jul 24 23:28:38 BST 2001:

>>Hey, TJ. These are CAST IRON examples. Anyway, I didn't pick them carefully. I clicked back through the Outlook-esque software to today in 1991, prompted by Bent Halo's remark above. Does that count as random enough?
>
>Avoiding my point again. The notion of whether Channel 4 is better now or was better years ago _inevitably_ needs more analysis than just two schedules representing a single part of a single day each.

As it does to posit the theory

There has definitely been a narrowing of the gap between C4 and the rest.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Rob Jones' on Tue Jul 24 23:29:00 BST 2001:

>>Channel 4 was formerly superior to its current state. It was.
>>
>>This still sounds a little awkward.
>
>Try it dressed up as a dalek, and finish with "it was... IT WAS! ... IT WAS!"

But will Steve Berry be able to exterminate them?

I vote he climbs up a flight of stairs and then reads a schedule from 1989.

DALEK: "IT WAS!... IT WAS!..."
Steve Berry: "3 PM: Oprah Winfrey. 4PM: Countdown..."

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Kettle Chips' on Tue Jul 24 23:29:04 BST 2001:

>Direct comparison of two carefully-chosen schedules relating to two individual evenings won't wash.

Isn't that the schedule for 24th July 2001 compared with the schedule for 24th July 1991? What's so "carefully-chosen" about that? Idiot.

>>Dur, dur, my name's TJ, dur dur dur.

> My god, that's a good argument.

It's on a par with yours, you thick cunt.

God, you're easy to wind up.

> And at least my name isn't 'Kettle Chips'.

No, it's TJ. Much much cooler.

> Cowardly pseudonym-adopting lurker.

Yes, Teej. Can I call you Teej? What's your real name again? Does it rhyme with arsehole? I hope it does. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Tom Adams on Tue Jul 24 23:31:32 BST 2001:

In that one day's listing is not representative of the entire output of the time, it's a perfectly legitimate statement.



Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:33:19 BST 2001:

>>Hey, TJ. These are CAST IRON examples. Anyway, I didn't pick them carefully. I clicked back through the Outlook-esque software to today in 1991, prompted by Bent Halo's remark above. Does that count as random enough?
>
>Avoiding my point again. The notion of whether Channel 4 is better now or was better years ago _inevitably_ needs more analysis than just two schedules representing a single part of a single day each.

And you clearly avoided my clever satire of either you or Justin when we had this argument right here on this forum weeks ago, when I was presented with a bunch of programmes you liked from x amount of years ago as a "argument" why C4 DID used to be better, it DID.

My point then was that you can't just rip out a schedule and wave it around in someone's face. Either you or Justin seemed to think that "cast iron" examples (it was a quote) from the schedules were good enough. Volte face, non?

Ah well.

List and number your points and I'll address them in the best way I can. Can't say fairer than that. But, really, is there any point? None of this is making you any happier.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Phil A' on Tue Jul 24 23:41:07 BST 2001:

There's no Big Brother in that 1991 schedule, is there? That alone makes the C4 of ten years ago superior. I'd happily sit through Golden Girls reruns till my brain melts if it meant I could escape from the omnipresent horror of Davina McCall and her shouty voice.
Besides, Tuesday is always a crap night for TV and always has been.

Channel 4 was certainly very good at certain points in it's history. It was. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:41:58 BST 2001:

>And you clearly avoided my clever satire of either you or Justin when we had this argument right here on this forum weeks ago, when I was presented with a bunch of programmes you liked from x amount of years ago as a "argument" why C4 DID used to be better, it DID.

That wasn't me, so the content of this posting is not relevant to me.

>List and number your points and I'll address them in the best way I can. Can't say fairer than that.

They're all present in this thread. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:44:19 BST 2001:

>Avoiding my point again. The notion of whether Channel 4 is better now or was better years ago _inevitably_ needs more analysis than just two schedules representing a single part of a single day each.

Okay, so what do you propose? To come to your conclusion, you've clearly done some in-depth research. Can we read it online?

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:46:02 BST 2001:

>>Avoiding my point again. The notion of whether Channel 4 is better now or was better years ago _inevitably_ needs more analysis than just two schedules representing a single part of a single day each.
>
>Okay, so what do you propose? To come to your conclusion, you've clearly done some in-depth research. Can we read it online?

You're not getting out of it that easily. You presented 'evidence' that wasn't evidence at all. Present your 'research' first.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:47:27 BST 2001:

>My implication was that it is deceitful to claim most of E4's output as 'original' material.

Original meaning "Preceding all others in time; first". I'm not being deceitful. That's part of E4's remit (including E4.COM but not so far that E4.COM's contribution represents a regulated 34% of new content). A lot of the stuff on the channel is new to the UK.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:48:10 BST 2001:

>>I have to say that you do have a knack of turning discussion into namecalling, Justin, and, to be frank, it doesn't do you any favours either.
>
>No he doesn't, and yes it does.

Yes he does, and no it doesn't. Unless you think it's a valuable contribution to a discussion? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:48:46 BST 2001:

>>>>I would have thought anyone with an inkling of the 'Trek canon and TV commissioning practices would be able to make an educated guess why.

>*sighs* well then, tell us what the point _is_.

Have a think about it. Make an educated guess as I suggested. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Rob Jones' on Tue Jul 24 23:49:22 BST 2001:

>You're not getting out of it that easily. You presented 'evidence' that wasn't evidence at all. Present your 'research' first.
>

This is all very postmodern. There now appears to be an argument taking place concerning the nature of the argument.

I vote you get to the issues, namely: Futurama wasn't on ten years ago. We had a double-bill tonight! Yes, I know it was edited, but it's better than the usual teatime nonsense from the nation's fourth favourite.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:50:00 BST 2001:

>>>>>I would have thought anyone with an inkling of the 'Trek canon and TV commissioning practices would be able to make an educated guess why.
>
>>*sighs* well then, tell us what the point _is_.
>
>Have a think about it. Make an educated guess as I suggested.

No, tell us what the point is. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:50:13 BST 2001:

>What, "please shut up so that it looks as though I've won even though I actually haven't"? Hardly a force to be reckoned with, is it?

That wasn't what I said. You are paraphrasing to deliberately misinterpret the intention behind what I said. It's a circular argument. The fact that I'm sitting here typing all the same responses for what seems the third time proves a) that, and b) that I must be a fucking idiot for bothering. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Bent Halo on Tue Jul 24 23:52:10 BST 2001:

>My point then was that you can't just rip out a schedule and wave it around in someone's face. Either you or Justin seemed to think that "cast iron" examples (it was a quote) from the schedules were good enough. Volte face, non?

Non. I seem to remember you suggesting it as an idea and it not being taken terribly seriously. TJ and Justin are on about the state of the channel and the way in which it has changed in attitude, and were happy to persevere with the discussion until you threw up your arms and said "I'm off to Manchester. Have a nice weekend!". The debate was not concluded properly, which is why it has reared round again.

I would hazard a guess that they think you are speaking from the Bumper Book Of Meeja Dismissiveness, and are horrendously dismayed by it coming from your mouth. If it is your genuine opinion then it just happens to be a highly on-message one.

As it goes, I rather fancy the look of that 1991 schedule. Imaginative documentaries (I would suspect) compared to the trend in recent years of making incredibly simplistic or tabloidy ones with overseas sales heavily in mind; a solid enough comedy line up; no docusoaps like 'Big Brother'; no house improvement shows like 'Grand Designs II'; 'Out', which, if it's the 'Out' season I'm thinking of, was fucking great, aswell as a consumer show at a sensible hour, on a station which recently cancelled 'Right To Reply'.

Roughly the same amount of imports in both listings, which is fair enough. Of course we'd actually have to watch this evening's C4 programming to make a true value judgement, and it's a bit late for that, eh?

Cheeriwotsits. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:52:43 BST 2001:

>That wasn't what I said. You are paraphrasing to deliberately misinterpret the intention behind what I said.

No I'm not. That was the implication behind your 'please leave me alone' posting to Justin. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 23:52:43 BST 2001:

b) that I must be a fucking idiot for bothering.

That's what I'm thinking, as TJ is basically Justin's annoying assistant and just repeats things over and over, but the general nastiness makes for fairly entertaining reading, so you carry on. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 24 23:54:31 BST 2001:

>That's what I'm thinking, as TJ is basically Justin's annoying assistant

So I'm not the Corpses' lapdog any more then? Interesting. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Rob Jones' on Tue Jul 24 23:54:43 BST 2001:

>b) that I must be a fucking idiot for bothering.
>
>That's what I'm thinking, as TJ is basically Justin's annoying assistant and just repeats things over and over, but the general nastiness makes for fairly entertaining reading, so you carry on.

Must say I'm finding it rather dull, but my whimsy-based attempts at calling a halt are failing, so I'm off to bed.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:55:27 BST 2001:

>But the word 'alternative' was also used, and that is being roundly ignored by Channel 4 at present, and by you. There is scarce evidence of anything that could genuinely be called an 'alternative' in Channel 4 at the moment. One new episode of Brass Eye does not an alternative make.

I disagree. I think that the schedule I quoted (today's) represents a great deal of content that wouldn't make it on the other channels.

>I do. Weak, substandard output being repeated because people are stupid enough to watch it twice because they don't have the imagination to do anything else (like, say, go for a walk) may make commercial sense, but it is still a 'bad thing' in the literal definition of the term.

I think you're misunderstanding the audience there. It certainly sounds patronising.

>Yes, it's a matter of personal taste, and Big Brother, Borat et al are not to my personal taste. This is an argument that won't hold up.

Against what? I was saying that you can't quantify "better" in terms of personal taste. Everyone has different tastes and I believe that C4/E4 provide a great deal of people with programming that is to their tastes.

>And show me some evidence that all of this saved money is indeed being spent on new, better shows.

As I don't have access to the flowcharts and accounts, I can't. But neither can you show me evidence to the contrary, so it's a moot point.

>Now you're just trying to confuse people with a string of disparate dates. This is not relevant.

No, I'm not, and it is. If commissioning editors in the past had seen fit to invest in buying repeat showings of programmes that had already gone out (instead of investing in new programming) you wouldn't have anything to demand a repeat of. You see?


Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Tue Jul 24 23:56:57 BST 2001:

>This would still leave several important key aspects of clearance untackled, though, so the above argument is flawed and hardly applicable.

Which important key aspects, TJ?

>No, but neither does the fact that they might be being paid to do it. Another flawed argument.

In my experience, people are paid because they are good at their jobs, not the other way around. It's relevant.

>And how much money does E4 make?

Enough.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 24 23:57:33 BST 2001:

>Must say I'm finding it rather dull, but my whimsy-based attempts at calling a halt are failing, so I'm off to bed.

To be honest, your bit about seeing off the Dalek was the most entertaining bit.

>>That's what I'm thinking, as TJ is basically Justin's annoying assistant
>
>So I'm not the Corpses' lapdog any more then? Interesting.

I must say you're handling this demotion very calmly. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Bent Halo on Tue Jul 24 23:59:17 BST 2001:

>I disagree. I think that the schedule I quoted (today's) represents a great deal of content that wouldn't make it on the other channels.

Specifically? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 00:01:25 BST 2001:

>>I disagree. I think that the schedule I quoted (today's) represents a great deal of content that wouldn't make it on the other channels.
>
>Specifically?

These bits.

19:00 C4 News
19:55 I Believe I Can Fly (Yogic meditation)
20:00 Blinded (documentary on Moorfields hospital)
21:00 Grand Designs II (people building dream houses)
22:00 Big Brother II
22:30 Big Brother Live
22:35 The Secret Life Of Us
22:40 Hobo Train (documentary about women who live on North American railroads)

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Wed Jul 25 00:02:06 BST 2001:

>I disagree. I think that the schedule I quoted (today's) represents a great deal of content that wouldn't make it on the other channels.

Then that's a matter of opinion. I really fail to see the difference.

>I think you're misunderstanding the audience there. It certainly sounds patronising.

Nowhere near patronising as the industry attitudes I was commenting on.

>Against what? I was saying that you can't quantify "better" in terms of personal taste.

Then you've just shot yourself in the foot AND tried to retrospectively change your argument in one sentence.

>Everyone has different tastes and I believe that C4/E4 provide a great deal of people with programming that is to their tastes.

Again, a matter of opinion. There are more groups that aren't catered for than are.

>As I don't have access to the flowcharts and accounts, I can't. But neither can you show me evidence to the contrary, so it's a moot point.

No it isn't. You could show me the evidence by the use of some of that handy 'quoting examples' you place so much faith in.

>No, I'm not, and it is. If commissioning editors in the past had seen fit to invest in buying repeat showings of programmes that had already gone out (instead of investing in new programming) you wouldn't have anything to demand a repeat of. You see?

Yes, of course I know that. But that doesn't change what I was originally getting at, and it isn't relevant to what I was originally getting at anyway.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Tom Adams on Wed Jul 25 00:03:14 BST 2001:

I wish the Secret Life of Us was that short..

Big Brother was on BBC1, abeit in celebrity format. Grand Designs is palpably untrue. Also programme about Moorfields. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Wed Jul 25 00:05:14 BST 2001:

>19:00 C4 News

Not too far from Newsnight, really.

>19:55 I Believe I Can Fly (Yogic meditation)

Would go down well on BBC2.

>20:00 Blinded (documentary on Moorfields hospital)

Ditto.

>21:00 Grand Designs II (people building dream houses)

With a bit of reworking, possible ITV fare?

>22:00 Big Brother II
>22:30 Big Brother Live

Plenty of Big Brother clones in existence.

>22:35 The Secret Life Of Us

BBC2 would probably buy this.

>22:40 Hobo Train (documentary about women who live on North American railroads)

BBC2, or even BBC1 late at night... Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 00:06:55 BST 2001:

>Non. I seem to remember you suggesting it as an idea and it not being taken terribly seriously.

So all that listing of programmes from 1991 was in my head?

>TJ and Justin are on about the state of the channel and the way in which it has changed in attitude, and were happy to persevere with the discussion until you threw up your arms and said "I'm off to Manchester. Have a nice weekend!".

Well, I *was* off to Manchester. My experience of TJ and Justin is that they demand evidence and pose questions but don't like it when the tables are turned. I'd never accuse one or the other of being anyone's lap-dog (despite the fact that I have been accused of many dishonourable things during these threads). However, the circular nature of these discussions, the repetition and pedantry about certain turns of phrase leads me to despair at times.

>I would hazard a guess that they think you are speaking from the Bumper Book Of Meeja Dismissiveness, and are horrendously dismayed by it coming from your mouth. If it is your genuine opinion then it just happens to be a highly on-message one.

It is my opinion. Why would I want to work for a channel I didn't like? Why would I apply for the job if I felt it was going down the dumper? Money? No, I was doing fine up in Manchester. My "media profile"? No, that's never really gone further than this forum and TVC. It's all rather useless battering, isn't it?

>As it goes, I rather fancy the look of that 1991 schedule. Imaginative documentaries (I would suspect) compared to the trend in recent years of making incredibly simplistic or tabloidy ones with overseas sales heavily in mind; a solid enough comedy line up; no docusoaps like 'Big Brother'; no house improvement shows like 'Grand Designs II'; 'Out', which, if it's the 'Out' season I'm thinking of, was fucking great, aswell as a consumer show at a sensible hour, on a station which recently cancelled 'Right To Reply'.

I think they look virtually interchangable, except for Big Brother. Which I like. And I don't apologise for liking it. I thought I'd hate it. I watched it and hated it, but couldn't stop myself from wanting more.

>Roughly the same amount of imports in both listings, which is fair enough. Of course we'd actually have to watch this evening's C4 programming to make a true value judgement, and it's a bit late for that, eh?

I'm sure someone round here's been taping it.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Wed Jul 25 00:09:22 BST 2001:

17:05 Oprah Winfrey Show
Kilroy (BBC1), Trisha? (ITV?)

>18:00 A Different World
BBC2 were probably kicking themselves at the time

>18:30 Tour De France
Grandstand

>19:00 C4 News
Basically Newsnight, mmm?

>19:50 Party Political Comment
Legally on all channels

>20:00 Brookside
Easty, Corrie...

>20:30 Check Out '91 (consumer affairs)
Watchdog

>21:00 Women Like Us (Vita Sackville-West - part of the Out On Tuesday season)
Very BBC2

>22:00 The Golden Girls
The BBC tried to remake it as the Brighton Belles

>22:30 The New Statesman
Repeat from ITV

>23:00 Just For Laughs
Can't remember what the fuck it was

>23:30 Mission Eureka (series about European space station)
Horizon...

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 00:10:20 BST 2001:

>Nowhere near patronising as the industry attitudes I was commenting on.

Wrong. More patronising than an attitude you've demonstrably been unable to qualify more than "I don't like what's on the telly, so people making it must be fools".

>Then you've just shot yourself in the foot AND tried to retrospectively change your argument in one sentence.

No.

>Again, a matter of opinion. There are more groups that aren't catered for than are.

In your opinion. Our opinions differ. That's why I was saying there was no need to go on with this. We've reached a conclusion.

>No it isn't. You could show me the evidence by the use of some of that handy 'quoting examples' you place so much faith in.

What examples are these?

>Yes, of course I know that. But that doesn't change what I was originally getting at, and it isn't relevant to what I was originally getting at anyway.

Fucking hell! What *were* you getting at?

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Wed Jul 25 00:16:00 BST 2001:

>>Nowhere near patronising as the industry attitudes I was commenting on.
>
>Wrong. More patronising than an attitude you've demonstrably been unable to qualify more than "I don't like what's on the telly, so people making it must be fools".

Not my attitude at all.

>In your opinion. Our opinions differ. That's why I was saying there was no need to go on with this. We've reached a conclusion.

Yes, but whenever you try to 'bring it to a conclusion', you have a go at someone in the process in a way that they are bound to answer back to. That is not bringing something to a conclusion.

>>No it isn't. You could show me the evidence by the use of some of that handy 'quoting examples' you place so much faith in.
>
>What examples are these?

Read the above statement properly.

>>Yes, of course I know that. But that doesn't change what I was originally getting at, and it isn't relevant to what I was originally getting at anyway.
>
>Fucking hell! What *were* you getting at?

Frankly, I'm long past expecting you to interpret anyone's points properly.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 00:18:46 BST 2001:

>Frankly, I'm long past expecting you to interpret anyone's points properly.

Good. So you win. At last, it's over. Can I go home now? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'A Cowardly, Sneering Anonymous' on Wed Jul 25 00:26:21 BST 2001:

>Frankly, I'm long past expecting you to interpret anyone's points properly.

Try articulating them properly then.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Bent Halo on Wed Jul 25 00:26:33 BST 2001:

You place docusoaps and house improvement shows as examples of what C4 can exclusively produce? Crikey.

>So all that listing of programmes from 1991 was in my head?

In that you suggested it the other week to indifference, yes.

>Well, I *was* off to Manchester.

I wasn't disputing that.

>My experience of TJ and Justin is that they demand evidence and pose questions but don't like it when the tables are turned.

They gave plenty last time, as far as I was concerned. Shame it's been deleted.

>However, the circular nature of these discussions, the repetition and pedantry about certain turns of phrase leads me to despair at times.

I watched C4 all the time ten years ago. I don't now. Something's changed, and I have an inkling of what it is. So do Justin and TJ. They've explained this with examples and arguments which have not suited your idea of "evidential support". I don't think their arguments are in any way inferior to anything you have offered. The intention is that they care a great deal about C4 because of what it has achieved in the past, a standard which in their eyes and mine is no longer there.

>No, that's never really gone further than this forum and TVC. It's all rather useless battering, isn't it?

TV Cream is, certainly. I have never made any bones about hating everything that stands for. It's full of inconsequence, innacuracy and tedious trivialising. Which makes your employment at E4 all the more expected. I've not been convinced by your arguments and, plainly, neither have Justin or TJ. It saddens me greatly that it *is* your opinion.

>I think they look virtually interchangable, except for Big Brother. Which I like. And I don't apologise for liking it. I thought I'd hate it. I watched it and hated it, but couldn't stop myself from wanting more.

Without wanting to go into it too much, 'Big Brother' is the antithesis of what TV should do, in my eyes at least. People babble on about its appeal as a soap, but this does not detract from the clear fact that previous docusoaps have set a precedent for evermore intimate and prying television, and it will continue down that vein until mainstream programming is totally devoid of creativity, or the potential for making you suspend disbelief and see something a bit unusual - like Comic Strip, Groovy Fellers or Nightingales. BB chokes the schedules and I despise it for this amongst many other reasons. I certainly don't believe it's a unique idea from C4. BBC and ITV set the form several years back, and it seems to form part of a greater intention to claw ratings away from cable/digital/satellite in an increasingly competitive TV age. There are alternatives in doing this, and listening to focus groups will do matters no good.

>Of course we'd actually have to watch this evening's C4 programming to make a true value judgement, and it's a bit late for that, eh?
>
>I'm sure someone round here's been taping it.

I'm sure the main players in the discussion have been on this thread all night, so the schedule debate is rather buggered before it has started.

Night. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'ollie' on Wed Jul 25 01:04:17 BST 2001:

'boo hoo hoo i hate big brother, lets all watch absolutely till our eyes bleed.'

fuckin idiots.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Al' on Wed Jul 25 01:53:33 BST 2001:

>'boo hoo hoo i hate big brother, lets all watch absolutely till our eyes bleed.'
>
>fuckin idiots.
>
Oh piss off.

As far as I can see there is a very real issue here, and Steve, in his role as defender of C4 (which to be fair he does not have to adopt) is not facing up to it. C4 is a commercial channel, but it also has a remit to present challenging, innovative programming. Bent has already presented an excellent case for why Big Brother is C4's current most obvious betrayal of this remit. But the problem is broader. It pains me to say it, but C4 WAS better in the past. It's nothing to do with moaning dad syndrome, or demanding Absolutley repeats. The last time this debate came up, I made what I thought was a very brief, balanced analysis of C4 now, and 6 or 7 years ago. I'm not going to type it all out again, but if you just narrow in on drama alone, you can see that C4 is lacking. The only good drama an C4 at present is The Sopranos, and The West Wing (the latter of which was treated very poorly on its terrestrial run). These are both US imports. Where are the 'Scully's? 'GBH's? ''Very British Coup's? 'One Summer's?

Steve talks about the realities of a commercial channel - but I have two problems with this:
a) C4 is not purely a commercial concern
b) Progs like Big Brother are commercial cul de sacs, a case of diminishing returns. They inspire even more piss poor imitations that clog up the schedules, and, inevitably, they will bore people. Do you really think anyone will watch Big Brother in 2003? Even next year I'll wager the shine will have come off it. And as for the suggestion that it is something only C4 could do...

A lot of this thread has got very personal, and some of the pathetic carping from the wings hasn't helped, but Steve, I would say that the reason TJ, Justin and Bent are getting snippy is because you are stonewalling. Something is rotten in the state of C4, or a bit manky at any rate. And, I would venture to suggest, you keep coming back because it has struck a raw nerve. I am glad you enjoy your job, the best of luck to you, honest. But no organisation is beyond reproach, and C4 has a real case to answer.

Subject: channel 4: a coherent defense.
Posted By 'ollie' on Wed Jul 25 04:23:50 BST 2001:

>>'boo hoo hoo i hate big brother, lets all watch absolutely till our eyes bleed.'
>>
>>fuckin idiots.
>>
>Oh piss off.

no you piss off.

>As far as I can see there is a very real issue here, and Steve, in his role as defender of C4 (which to be fair he does not have to adopt) is not facing up to it. C4 is a commercial channel, but it also has a remit to present challenging, innovative programming. Bent has already presented an excellent case for why Big Brother is C4's current most obvious betrayal of this remit. But the problem is broader. It pains me to say it, but C4 WAS better in the past. It's nothing to do with moaning dad syndrome, or demanding Absolutley repeats. The last time this debate came up, I made what I thought was a very brief, balanced analysis of C4 now, and 6 or 7 years ago.

taken as a whole, british television was better 6 or 7 years ago, it's not a problem isolated to channel 4. but there are always good programmes and bad ones.

I'm not going to type it all out again, but if you just narrow in on drama alone, you can see that C4 is lacking. The only good drama an C4 at present is The Sopranos, and The West Wing (the latter of which was treated very poorly on its terrestrial run).

where else on british television would the sopranos find a home, the reason shows like homicide or oz get lost in the schedules is that no other terestrial channel would take them. as for the west wing it was more badly served by viewers than by channel 4, it wasn't moved to a graveyard slot until they realised noone watched it.

These are both US imports. Where are the 'Scully's? 'GBH's? ''Very British Coup's? 'One Summer's?

what about queer as folk? not the same i grant you but shows a commitment to original british shows.

>Steve talks about the realities of a commercial channel - but I have two problems with this:
>a) C4 is not purely a commercial concern
>b) Progs like Big Brother are commercial cul de sacs, a case of diminishing returns. They inspire even more piss poor imitations that clog up the schedules, and, inevitably, they will bore people. Do you really think anyone will watch Big Brother in 2003? Even next year I'll wager the shine will have come off it. And as for the suggestion that it is something only C4 could do...

thats exactly what people said about big brother 2 and thats been just as popular. just because shows or genres run their course doesn't mean the shouldn't be made in the first place. big brother is popular and successful, get used to it.

>A lot of this thread has got very personal, and some of the pathetic carping from the wings hasn't helped, but Steve, I would say that the reason TJ, Justin and Bent are getting snippy is because you are stonewalling. Something is rotten in the state of C4, or a bit manky at any rate. And, I would venture to suggest, you keep coming back because it has struck a raw nerve. I am glad you enjoy your job, the best of luck to you, honest. But no organisation is beyond reproach, and C4 has a real case to answer.

i would venture to suggest that steve berry comes here to talk about comedy, only to be waylaid and insulted by folk like yourself. it's not as if he's controller. if you think channel 4 has a case to answer then write to them, ya big dummy.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'ollie' on Wed Jul 25 04:28:56 BST 2001:

i hope you can tell which bits i wrote and which bits were quotes. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Gregg' on Wed Jul 25 05:33:00 BST 2001:

>>I'm not going to type it all out again,
>>but if you just narrow in on drama alone,
>>you can see that C4 is lacking. The only
>>good drama an C4 at present is The
>>Sopranos, and The West Wing (the latter of
>>which was treated very poorly on its
>>terrestrial run).
>
>where else on british television would the
>sopranos find a home,

A good point - but Al did say "all of British Tv was better 6 or 7 years ago" (or words to that effect).

>the reason shows like
>homicide or oz get lost in the schedules is
>that no other terestrial channel would take
>them.

I don't follow. The shows get lost in C4's schedules because of what other channels do?

>as for the west wing it was more badly
>served by viewers than by channel 4, it
>wasn't moved to a graveyard slot until they
>realised noone watched it.

It was moved to a graveyard slot in its second week.

>>These are both US imports. Where are
>>the 'Scully's? 'GBH's? ''Very British
>>Coup's? 'One Summer's?
>
>what about queer as folk? not the same i
>grant you but shows a commitment to
>original british shows.

That's one series. Which is now almost three years old. And though they wanted a second series - even though RTD had done everything he wanted to do with those characters - they didn't go for the spin-off, did they?

>Do you really think anyone will watch Big
>>Brother in 2003? Even next year I'll
>>wager
>>the shine will have come off it. And as
>>for the suggestion that it is something
>>only C4 could do...
>
>thats exactly what people said about big
>brother 2 and thats been just as popular.

Erm, no, it hasn't. Until the Paul and Helen thing, it had failed to do much, really. It hasn't been talked about as much. It has illustrated the law of diminishing returns. The novelty will wear off.

(And it's a shit show, anyway - I mean, for Christ's sake, a wonderful opportunity to take a bunch of fragile, ignorant, egotisitcal, precious little wackjobs and lock them away from the rest of us, keep them from getting under our feet when we go shopping with their stupid whining and pathetic, empty faces, and the bastards keep letting them out.)

>just because shows or genres run their
>course doesn't mean the shouldn't be made
>in the first place. big brother is popular
>and successful, get used to it.

'The Sun' is popular and successful. Thatcherism is popular and successful. Being popular and successful doesn't make it right or proper. And it doesn't mean we have to meekly accept the injustice of it all. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Wed Jul 25 08:45:14 BST 2001:

>'boo hoo hoo i hate big brother, lets all watch absolutely till our eyes bleed.'
>
>fuckin idiots.

That's not an unreasonable reaction to how this "discussion" eventually went.

It started off being about how we can get access to good shows from the archive. It turned into the same highly subjective (not to mention pointless) exploration of whether "Big Brother" is worse than "Treasure Hunt," all coloured by the usual tendency of TJ to try and get his tongue up the anus of anyone with a red name! (See Dr Who thread for another classic...) Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Eat My Thoughts' on Wed Jul 25 08:50:09 BST 2001:

>There's shit and gold everywhere; always has been, always will be.

I'm scared by all these - "there's always been rubbish made and there's always been good stuff". What if they become jurors in a murder trial - "well there's always been some people murdered and some people who live, why do we have to argue? why do we have to evaluate? why do we have to think or feel anything?"
What if the new Volvo car kept crashing? "Well some Volvos have always crashed. It's SUBJECTIVE".

People have always said things were better in their day. Therefore, anyone who says things were better in the past is automatically wrong. They are basing their opinion purely on their subjective whims and false memories. Everything is exactly the same as it ever has been. Nothing has changed in human history, nothing can be said to be better or worse. I see it all now.
Wisdom grounded in ignorance. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Wed Jul 25 08:53:31 BST 2001:

In that case, I suppose we can't have too many essays on the difference between Treasure Hunt and Big Brother.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Wed Jul 25 09:10:53 BST 2001:

>It started off being about how we can get access to good shows from the archive. It turned into the same highly subjective (not to mention pointless) exploration of whether "Big Brother" is worse than "Treasure Hunt," all coloured by the usual tendency of TJ to try and get his tongue up the anus of anyone with a red name! (See Dr Who thread for another classic...)

Have you not stopped to think that I might agree with people?
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Wed Jul 25 09:23:50 BST 2001:

>Have you not stopped to think that I might agree with people?

Good point. Also there's the issue of not being able to get your tongue up where a head is already firmly lodged. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By TJ on Wed Jul 25 09:26:21 BST 2001:

>>Have you not stopped to think that I might agree with people?
>
>Good point. Also there's the issue of not being able to get your tongue up where a head is already firmly lodged.

I have disagreed with all of the 'rednames' on numerous occasions in the past.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Eat My Thoughts' on Wed Jul 25 09:39:14 BST 2001:

>In that case, I suppose we can't have too many essays on the difference between Treasure Hunt and Big Brother.

Well I'm not sure how many people actually have compared Treasure Hunt and Big Brother. People have compared the state of Channel Four now to how it was, and people on both sides have had the nerve to use specific examples.
In answer to your statement I think it's probably quality not quantity of argument. No, you can't have too many well expressed, properly thought-out genuine opinions. The more personal the better as far as I am concerned.
You can have too many people saying "it's all subjective, everythings the same, all opinions are of equal value so there's no point anyone saying or feeling anything". In the abstracted, impersonal, ill thought out pointless way that they do.

I think it is far more useful and interesting to have people genuinely expressing their opinions about these shows and the spirit in which they were made, using lots of examples and explaining why they love them/hate them, than it is having people saying "you can't do that, you can't talk about anything or give your reasoned opinion on anything because it's all pointless". What's the point in that? Other than an egotistical attempt to grab the high-ground by somehow rising above all this petty squabling with pieces of empty pseudo-wisdom which everyone's heard a hundred times before and tells us nothing new. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Wed Jul 25 10:50:48 BST 2001:

Right, look. This is not about individual programmes, this is not even about what is in the C4 schedules, it's about what *isn't* there. How is it that Channel 4 has no regular arts programme, very little home-grown drama, bugger all in the way of public access programmes, no serious regular music shows (The Priory, I would like to point out, does not fucking count) and next to nothing for minorities? E4 ten years ago might have run the Banned Season, now it's running Porn Night.

I know that my image on this forum is currently one of Screaming Man. But Steve, your arguments never ever cut to the heart of what C4 was set up for, and why it is there to be innovative and thought-provoking. This, I hope I need not add, does not mean Big Brother. And I think it says a lot that you interrupted last week's argument on this subject to tell us something about what was going on in the BB house. Which said it all, really: "Forget debate, here's something exciting...".

This isn't even about repeating Absolutely, as far as I'm concerned. If C4 or E4 was making something of even half that quality right now, I'd have no complaints. But they're not. Opinion? Yes, it is. But I'm not alone here.

Oh yes, and as for the 1991 schedule: at least the imports didn't get censored (like Futurama does now) and Brookside was not like EastEnders and Coronation Street then - it still dared to tackle political issues. And was getting much higher ratings than it does now.

I didn't want to make this sound like I was a member of Chumbawamba, but Steve, honestly, when you sit back with your avuncular "Cheerios" like you don't understand the fuss we're making, it does feel like we have to shout to make ourselves heard.

Oh yes, nearly forgot:

Channel 4 DID used to be better. It DID. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 11:08:23 BST 2001:

>And I think it says a lot that you interrupted last week's argument on this subject to tell us something about what was going on in the BB house. Which said it all, really: "Forget debate, here's something exciting...".

It would say a lot if it hadn't actually been about the postponement of Brass Eye Special.

Anyway, as I think my last post last night clearly pointed out, I have conceded defeat. Justin, TJ et al are all right. Television is going right down the shitter and I am dedicating the large part of the day today to explaining to my colleagues that their jobs are wrong and their attitude is killing television.

Apologies, also, if the word "cheerio" is getting people's backs up. It's just something I write at the bottom of posts/emails and, to be honest, have never given a second thought to in all these five years of doing it. I appreciate now that it is symptomatic of my attitude to television and its benevolent or tolerant tone is not conducive to discussion.

T'ra Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Bent Halo on Wed Jul 25 14:09:44 BST 2001:

>>There's shit and gold everywhere; always has been, always will be.

Cobblers.

It's a simple concept.

Lots of people make lots of things, be it in music, art or writing. These are mediums where it is easier to do stuff, but people grumble about the art world or chart music because the industry's targets are wrong. However, in those mediums there is an alternative. You can actually create the stuff and not have to distribute it through a label, publisher or gallery, and can conceivably set one up yourself. By this token, the random act of thousands upon thousands of artists creating stuff at all sorts of competence levels, and independantly of one another, leads to a mean average of good stuff, which stays the same year in and year out. How can it not? The related industries, conversely, vary in their standard of selection and this leads to boring charts and safe-bet bestsellers. It doesn't actually mean that music is shit now, or books, or modern art.

In TV, on the other hand, everything rises and falls according to programme commissions. If you don't get one, you don't get the chance to create. You can't very well set up your own TV station if you have an idea for a show, so you're buggered if you get a rejection. Because of this there is a mean average of quality programming (to every man, in different ways) which varies year upon year, due to it being completely at the hands of what commissioning editors want, or what the umpteenth focus group dictates. The argument that there is the same variety of good stuff on TV every year does not wash. The media climate has changed in the past ten years and ratings-clammering has overtaken risk taking. This pisses me off and a great many people who grew up on C4's original remit are gravely disappointed with its current attitude. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 14:28:03 BST 2001:

>The media climate has changed in the past ten years and ratings-clammering has overtaken risk taking. This pisses me off and a great many people who grew up on C4's original remit are gravely disappointed with its current attitude.

Absolutely! All commissioning editors share the same viewpoint and act as one, guided by the attitude-brief we are given when we take the C4 shilling.

Back later. Just off to consult my focus group at the chimp farm then take that tape of Brass Eye out-takes down to my mates at the NME.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Mike4SOTCAA on Wed Jul 25 14:59:58 BST 2001:

Steve, do you concede that the comedy world is in crisis, or do you firmly believe the good/bad balance has remained unchanged? If so, what are the problems as you see them? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 15:17:36 BST 2001:

>Steve, do you concede that the comedy world is in crisis, or do you firmly believe the good/bad balance has remained unchanged? If so, what are the problems as you see them?

I think that the route to comedy success has been ossified (stand-up, Edinburgh, sketch TV show, sitcom, Wembley). I think that there should be more experimentation with different media, more flexibility with the way people work. Comedians have told me that they don't want their work on E4, 'cos it represents too small a budget. They'd rather hold out for 11:45 on BBC TWO and get the big wedge (which is fair enough). But there are a lot of comedians (I hope) who aren't coming to E4 because they don't have representation (yer Avalons, yer Talkbacks). There are probably a lot of comedy writers who would succeed on radio/paper/web who are transfixed by the stand-up route to fame and are failing. I think we need to educate them.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'oil me' on Wed Jul 25 15:22:47 BST 2001:

I have a solution:

Everyone on this forum puts money into creating a digital comedy channel (seems they will put anything on [Shop!, Job channels] it), pay for the rights to show Absolutely et al, make some comedy of your own, make everyone watch it for free for a month, then start charging to cover your returns.

It could be done. It could.

P.S. Please don't call me ignorant Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Bent Halo on Wed Jul 25 15:31:52 BST 2001:

>Absolutely! All commissioning editors share the same viewpoint and act as one, guided by the attitude-brief we are given when we take the C4 shilling.
>
>Back later. Just off to consult my focus group at the chimp farm then take that tape of Brass Eye out-takes down to my mates at the NME.

What are you blethering on about? Acknowledging the point with anything but sarcasm would be a great plus. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 15:49:10 BST 2001:

>What are you blethering on about? Acknowledging the point with anything but sarcasm would be a great plus.

See above.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Bent Halo on Wed Jul 25 16:08:22 BST 2001:

>See above.

You were sending civil enough responses to my messages last night. Why can't you do this again? In my last message I was making a point about how the deterioration of TV is provable against this "always been the same" attitude. At no juncture did I say that everybody at C4 was the same. Your response ignored the point, and opted for sarcasm instead.

Again - what are you blethering on about? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Ailie on Wed Jul 25 16:58:56 BST 2001:

I have just read though this thread, which took considerable time.

What do you lot want? Blood?

I'd like to voice my support of Steve Berry, who seems to be one of very few who have not sunk to a personally insulting depth, despite extreme provocation.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Channel 4 - it's _my_ personal preference, as I imagine it may be of those of you being contrary. After all, Jane Root's made BBC2 shit, hasn't she, and the other channels offer a pretty ropey selection of comedy - not like in the good old days.

I found last night's Grand Designs (which is an ace series) really inspiring, and the documentary about hobos, which would have been out of place on any other channel, interesting and innovative. Most recently, I've been impressed with C4 having the bollocks to show Men Only - no one else would have.

The schedule comparison sevrved to highlight that the "it DID used to be better" argument is rubbish. Okay, there "DID" used to be good shows, but there was some utter rubbish too.
From the time of the older schedule, the rubbish has evolved into a glossier state, but it doesn't change the fact that it was always there and that C4 is still more than capable of some cracking broadcasting.

Channel 4 IS still good. It IS.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Wed Jul 25 19:40:46 BST 2001:

The older schedule is a red herring anyway. In 1991, summer schedules were packed with repeats on all channels (no bad thing, if the repeats were of good stuff), whereas these days programme makers congratulate themselves on screening almost exclusively first-run material. Personally, though, I'd rather watch The Golden Girls again than five seconds of Big Brother. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Tom Adams on Wed Jul 25 19:54:46 BST 2001:

Do you think Steve would have posted his listings had it proved your point, really?

Right. Why doesn't Steve post listings every day for about a month. Then we can utilise some form of scoring system for 'Channel 4-ness' and prove it once and for all. Ish.

I'm not joking, either. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Ewar Woowar on Wed Jul 25 20:04:48 BST 2001:

I just can't believe that, with such a wonderful resource at his fingertips, Steve has done such a botched job of refuting the notion that Channel 4 was better 10 years ago. You'd think with all that "evidence" we'd be putty in his hands by now.

And those quoted schedules, although hardly representative (Tuesday nights and summer schedules have always been a bit crap) actually *do* prove Justin's point. I'd watch twice as many programmes from the '91 listing than from last night's slim pickings.

I really am jealous of that listings database, though. Drooling at the very thought. Go on Steve, how about a thread where each day you post the listings for this day, 10 years ago? For about a month. Then revive it for the new autumn schedules. Should be interesting. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 20:12:39 BST 2001:

>Do you think Steve would have posted his listings had it proved your point, really?

Actually, it did occur to me that I would be accused of this, which is why I didn't editorialise the listings. And I honestly did just pick the day at random.

Personally, I don't think it proved anything other than that the scheduling itself (the timeslots, etc.) are pretty much the same. It's a bit of a red herring unless we can actually sit down and watch the programmes in front of a broad cross-section of the audience then and the audience now. But we can't. I just thought it might be interesting to see two schedules.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 20:16:24 BST 2001:

>I just can't believe that, with such a wonderful resource at his fingertips, Steve has done such a botched job of refuting the notion that Channel 4 was better 10 years ago.

I've seen nothing to indicate that C4 was better ten years ago, other than a bunch of people saying "it was".

>And those quoted schedules, although hardly representative (Tuesday nights and summer schedules have always been a bit crap) actually *do* prove Justin's point. I'd watch twice as many programmes from the '91 listing than from last night's slim pickings.

Each to their own, then.

>I really am jealous of that listings database, though. Drooling at the very thought. Go on Steve, how about a thread where each day you post the listings for this day, 10 years ago? For about a month. Then revive it for the new autumn schedules. Should be interesting.

Represents rather a lot of work on my part, though. I have to transcribe each listing manually. And, as this is my free time I'm giving up to argue against a largely unpersuadable minority, I'm not inclined to do it. You should have bought the Radio Times.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Wed Jul 25 20:16:26 BST 2001:

>I just thought it might be interesting to see two schedules.

And it was. Made me very nostalgic.



Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Wed Jul 25 20:20:22 BST 2001:

A crazy thought:

Start compiling a list of "all time great" comedy shows (all channels... so nothing from ITV then, ho ho.)

Then find out when they first aired.

Then group them into yearly slots and count up how many of these classics started airing in each year.

Then draw a nice bar chart, years vs. classic shows. Rob might be able to automate this, using his genius, so it stays up to date as people suggest more shows. If the skeptics are right, then we should see a severe clustering of goodness towards

It might not tell us much, but maybe the word "cruelty" would start flashing.

Also, it may start a new argument about whether or not this or that show qualifies as a comedy classic. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Wed Jul 25 20:21:35 BST 2001:

>If the skeptics are right, then we should see a severe clustering of goodness towards

I was so bored of that sentence I couldn't even be bothered to type "blah blah blah." Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Being anon just to annoy TJ and Justin' on Wed Jul 25 20:52:42 BST 2001:

Having read through this thread I can state, in all seriousness, that Justin are TJ behaving like the two of the most boring, self-righteous, nit-picking, whining CUNTS I've ever had the misfortune to withstand.

So you think C4 isn't as good as it used to be. Fine. So why not shut the FUCK UP, stop hurling your toys out of your prams, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Fact is, neither of you would have a CLUE where to start. You'd both rather sit around, bitching.

Wouldn't you?

Wankers. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Wed Jul 25 20:57:11 BST 2001:

>Having read through this thread I can state, in all seriousness, that Justin are TJ behaving like the two of the most boring, self-righteous, nit-picking, whining CUNTS I've ever had the misfortune to withstand.
>
>So you think C4 isn't as good as it used to be. Fine. So why not shut the FUCK UP, stop hurling your toys out of your prams, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
>
>Fact is, neither of you would have a CLUE where to start. You'd both rather sit around, bitching.
>
>Wouldn't you?
>
>Wankers.

If you're sticking around here, it's going to take you a sod of a long time to type that name in every time.

You also seem to be using CAPS all the time. Try pressing Caps Lock a second time.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Being ANON just TO ANNOY JUSTIN' on Wed Jul 25 21:01:44 BST 2001:

Ahhhh, so you _wouldn't_ have a clue then?

Thought as much.

WANKER.

(Sorry: CAPS LOCK GOT STUCK) Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Al' on Wed Jul 25 21:50:04 BST 2001:

>Having read through this thread I can state, in all seriousness, that Justin are TJ behaving like the two of the most boring, self-righteous, nit-picking, whining CUNTS I've ever had the misfortune to withstand.
>
>So you think C4 isn't as good as it used to be. Fine. So why not shut the FUCK UP, stop hurling your toys out of your prams, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
>
>Fact is, neither of you would have a CLUE where to start. You'd both rather sit around, bitching.
>
>Wouldn't you?
>
>Wankers.

So Justin and TJ are whining cunts are they? And you're going to deal with their whining and hurling toys out of their prams by er... being a whining cunt and hurling your toys out of your pram.

It is simply not an argument to say "You don't like C4 - why don't you do better?" C4 is a major TV channel with a specific remit to make new and innovative shows. TJ and Justin are viewers and have every right to criticise C4 if it is not doing so.

And making anonymous postings annoys everyone if it's done to protect the identity of those being abusive. It's cowardly.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Al' on Wed Jul 25 21:53:37 BST 2001:

>i would venture to suggest that steve berry comes here to talk about comedy, only to be waylaid and insulted by folk like yourself. it's not as if he's controller. if you think channel 4 has a case to answer then write to them, ya big dummy.

I have never insulted Steve Berry. Go and read my posts again (actually that would be pretty dull, but if you don't believe me, go ahead.) I actually acknowledged from the outset that he is under no obligation to defend C4, but he does so that's up to him. My points to him were fair and balanced. And I still think there is a serious point here that is being nixed by people bandying about words like 'nostalgia', 'whining' 'you do better' and 'dummy'. So there.


Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Al' on Wed Jul 25 22:00:19 BST 2001:

>The schedule comparison sevrved to highlight that the "it DID used to be better" argument is rubbish. Okay, there "DID" used to be good shows, but there was some utter rubbish too.
>From the time of the older schedule, the rubbish has evolved into a glossier state, but it doesn't change the fact that it was always there and that C4 is still more than capable of some cracking broadcasting.
>
>Channel 4 IS still good. It IS.

Sorry, A, have to disagree. As I think I, Bent, TJ and others have said, C4 still does make some good shows. And it did make some bad ones in the past. But overall, it is not doing as much of what it is supposed to do (it has Government remit to provide alternative and innovative broadcasting) as often as it should. C4 can be good. But it used to be better. That is not nostalgia, I have studied enough about the major changes in broadcasting in the last ten years to see it as a result of organisational and economic decisions made at the heart of broadcasting.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 23:34:11 BST 2001:

>I have never insulted Steve Berry... And I still think there is a serious point here that is being nixed by people bandying about words like 'nostalgia', 'whining' 'you do better' and 'dummy'. So there.

Agreed. Name-calling does no-one any good. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 23:37:18 BST 2001:

>But overall, it is not doing as much of what it is supposed to do (it has Government remit to provide alternative and innovative broadcasting) as often as it should.

A Government remit it still continues to fulfil.

Seriously, if you think you have a case (which you can back up with examples, evidence or cold, hard facts) that C4 isn't fulfilling its remit, put that case in writing to the ITC. Regardless of whether or not you think that particular organisation has "teeth", it's responsible for regulating the channel (with regard to its remit) and would give your complaint serious consideration. Believe me, I've seen the guff they've responded to in the past.

Chee... oops Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Al' on Thu Jul 26 03:38:33 BST 2001:

>Seriously, if you think you have a case (which you can back up with examples, evidence or cold, hard facts) that C4 isn't fulfilling its remit, put that case in writing to the ITC. Regardless of whether or not you think that particular organisation has "teeth", it's responsible for regulating the channel (with regard to its remit) and would give your complaint serious consideration. Believe me, I've seen the guff they've responded to in the past.

A fair point, but I fear it would be pointless of me to, say, cite Big Brother as an example of C4's failure to produce innovative and imaginative programmes if C4 management simply tell the ITC that Big Brother *is* innovative and imaginative.

Basically, the argument boils down to the fact that the very shows I see as a problem - you do not, and I would guess C4 wouldn't either. And likewise, the lack of decent new material that I perceive would be dismissed.

Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Thu Jul 26 09:48:59 BST 2001:

>A fair point, but I fear it would be pointless of me to, say, cite Big Brother as an example of C4's failure to produce innovative and imaginative programmes if C4 management simply tell the ITC that Big Brother *is* innovative and imaginative.

Well, C4 is not the ITC's dad. For example, if C4 broadcast an episode of 'Dad's Army' with the word "nigger" used in it, and someone complained, the ITC would expect a full written explanation of the processes involved in selecting it for broadcast (and would make an independent ruling based on the complaint and the justification). It wouldn't just do for C4 to say "Oh, it's fine, ITC, never you mind".

>Basically, the argument boils down to the fact that the very shows I see as a problem - you do not, and I would guess C4 wouldn't either.

I think I made that point X to the power N posts ago up there.

>And likewise, the lack of decent new material that I perceive would be dismissed.

No. Any complaint you bring to the ITC would be treated with the same degree of seriousness as any other. So, to all on this forum who prefer to berate me directly for the perceived faults of the company I work for, if you think you've got a case, write it down and take it to the regulatory body.

The fact is that C4 has to adhere to the remit it has been given. If the ITC (or any other party involved) decrees that this remit is not being adhered to, they can do something about it. As it stands, the ITC does not believe that. Thank heavens TJ and Justin don't work there!

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Mike4SOTCAA on Thu Jul 26 12:11:03 BST 2001:

Steve: Do you ever watch a video of an old C4 show and think to yourself 'This would *never* get commissioned nowadays' and feel a bit unhappy about it? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Thu Jul 26 12:47:23 BST 2001:

>Steve: Do you ever watch a video of an old C4 show and think to yourself 'This would *never* get commissioned nowadays' and feel a bit unhappy about it?

I actually don't watch as much as say, SOTCAA guys, would given that I can call up a tape pretty much any time. (Now, *that's* gonna piss off a lot of people!) But I agree that, based on my BBC experience, I saw a lot of stuff and went "this'd never get past the development stage these days". And that *is* to do with the way programmes were/are made. But that's the Beeb, and it's a producer/broadcaster, whereas Four is a publisher/broadcaster.

The commissioning editors in comedy that I do know (most of whom are fairly new in their jobs, but not as new as me) seem to have pretty catholic tastes in comedy. I can't see them knocking back another 'Absolutely' or 'Comic Strip', for example. And the Comedy Lab this year seems to be shaping up very nicely. In fact, although I'm a bit jealous that they get to work with all the big, rising stars (as well as established ones), I'm not jealous of the fact that they only have a certain amount of budget to play with. (Not that my budget is limited, mind, but it's easier to persuade new media companies to accept less in the current climate.)

Actually, here's fun. Why don't you (and the forum) name a couple of shows that you think would fit into the category above (i.e. good comedy, wouldn't get commissioned nowadays) and I'll call one of each up to view.

That doesn't really answer your question, I know, but I don't think I'm fully equipped to answer it.

Cheerio

Steve Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By chris hc on Thu Jul 26 13:24:09 BST 2001:

has it been proferred that the reason you used to love C4 and now hate it is because 10 years have passed and you're/we're all jaded cynical fucks? I expect this is a standard response, so probably easy to dismiss with a received opinion tag. Still it makes sense.
There does 'seem' to be more shit on C4 these days, but i can't really remember. Wasn't 30 Something on C4 back in the day? Whew, and that was shit. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Thu Jul 26 13:26:46 BST 2001:

>There does 'seem' to be more shit on C4 these days, but i can't really remember. Wasn't 30 Something on C4 back in the day? Whew, and that was shit.

Whether you liked thirtysomething or not, it was only an hour a week. Compare with Big Brother. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Unruly Butler on Thu Jul 26 13:40:20 BST 2001:

If Channel 4 weren't running:

Big Brother

or

The occasional piece of soft porn masquearading as documentary (Eurotrash, Amsterdam Window Whores Uncovered)

would this entire argument fall down?

I want more examples of this wave of dreadful programming that is a disgrace to Channel 4's remit. I haven't heard many. We keep going back to these two.

For God's sake, try and watch ITV or Sky One for a couple of hours and then tell me that C4 isn't providing an alternative. Again we're back to an overall decline in standards in TV as a whole, if anything, not an abandonment of principles by the chaps at Horseferry Road. Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Jack Welsby' on Thu Jul 26 14:54:28 BST 2001:

With extraordinary timing:

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/07/26/nmed26.xml
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Thu Jul 26 15:37:07 BST 2001:

>With extraordinary timing:

SOTCAA the zeitgeist-surfer! Odd, though, how Anthony Smith refrains from using the word "fuckwits". Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Jessica' on Thu Jul 26 16:08:39 BST 2001:

>SOTCAA the zeitgeist-surfer! Odd, though, how Anthony Smith refrains from using the word "fuckwits".

Right... I know Anthony Smith from when I was at university. He is a lovely man, very astute and truly enthusiastic and passionate about TV and film. That's his face that looks out of the rocket in the windows of MOMI. He is not an elitist himself - he tends to be inclusive.

He makes a very compelling case, which will certainly be nodded at by people on here. Most of what he writes is correct and true. But read this sentence:

>What has happened to the passion to innovate and move on?

Read it again. The problem here is what constitutes a 'passion to innovate'. If C4 do this by commissioning new kinds of programme and appealing to a different audience, then they will be condemned by many on here. If they do it by turning their back on what they have done in the past, they will be condemned by many on here. If they do this by trying to create innovative comedy that doesn't fit the 80s-obsessed forum contributors, they will be condemned.

So... my question is: what *kind* of innovation do we want from C4? Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Steve Berry on Thu Jul 26 16:45:31 BST 2001:

>He makes a very compelling case, which will certainly be nodded at by people on here. Most of what he writes is correct and true.

Weeeeeell... Nitpicking aside (there's actually about half a dozen generalisations, omissions and factual errors in there, but that may well be down to sub-editing), it is a well-written piece. It's amazing the debate that 'Big Brother' sparks off, isn't it?

So, moral high-ground is the start of the yellow brick road to C4's glory years. And rumours abound that Chris Evans might come back to the Big Breakfast. Clearly it's time to start shouting.

Cheerio Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By 'Gregg' on Thu Jul 26 17:38:20 BST 2001:

>It's amazing the debate that 'Big Brother'
>sparks off, isn't it?

Yeah. Like bubonic plague. I wonder if people will still be talking about 'Big Brother' in six-hundred years' time.

>So, moral high-ground is the start of the
>yellow brick road to C4's glory years. And
>rumours abound that Chris Evans might come
>back to the Big Breakfast.

Just in time for it to stop.

Seriously, I think they've accepted their fate. I caught one of the jingles earlier this week:

They may not grab the headlines
but fuck it, we've got deadlines.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Thu Jul 26 20:11:16 BST 2001:

>If they do this by trying to create innovative comedy that doesn't fit the 80s-obsessed forum contributors...

Not "80s" as such, Jessica. I will quite happily defend C4's role until about four or five years ago.

>So... my question is: what *kind* of innovation do we want from C4?

More sitcoms (the sitcom festival, much-ballyhooed in Father Ted's era, is very muted now).

A decent weekly music show. (The White Room was the last gasp of such a programme.)

Regular arts programmes (there is no channel that runs such a thing any more, apart from Omnibus and South Bank Show - both in highly reduced runs).

A return to single drama. (Men Only was a start, but more of these please.)

Generally a retreat from style over content. (Seeing as all the other channels are favouring the s-over-c option in much of their output).

Fewer human interest documentaries (Cutting Edge has turned into the Sunday People the past couple of years) and more political content.

Most of these, you'll have noticed, aren't innovative as such. Metrosexuality was doubtless thought of as innovative, but unfortunately it was unwatchable. Black Books is pretty traditional and could run on BBC1, but was a great sitcom imo. But the examples I gave above are not just things that no-one's really doing anymore, but things, frustratingly, that C4 was doing just a few years ago. Why have programmes like Right To Reply, A Week In Politics, Without Walls and The White Room vanished and never replaced by even vaguely similar formats?

Even I am beginning to get bored of this now. Rejoice...
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By chris hc on Thu Jul 26 20:12:07 BST 2001:

>
>>There does 'seem' to be more shit on C4 these days, but i can't really remember. Wasn't 30 Something on C4 back in the day? Whew, and that was shit.
>
>Whether you liked thirtysomething or not, it was only an hour a week. Compare with Big Brother.

you know, you're right, Big Brother is on for more longer times. grr..
Call me ignorant, but I didn't realise that Channel4 were a public company. hmm.
Does anyone remember a documentary series NETWORK FIRST? Was that C4? They did a very disturbing documentary on Stigmata. If anyone remembers this, email me so we can stroke our pasties in rememberance. If anyone remembers i'll be chuffed and you'll be important.
Subject: Re: Exciting New Programmes From The Powerhouse Of Creativity That Is E4
Posted By Justin on Thu Jul 26 20:20:27 BST 2001:

Don't remember the specific show you mention, but Network First was made for ITV. By Yorkshire TV, possibly.