The way ahead
Posted Sun Aug 27 21:28:50 BST 2000 by Dr. Hackenbush
Ok, you got us. The "Philosophy forum" thing was spot on. Our self-indulgent meandering is not going to improve anything (and we don't have the unbroadcast 2nd pilot of Simon Munnery's unmade "Spinaaaach Faktory" on tape like you do - kidding).
I agree, the "comedy" on display in Edinburgh or Bust is embarrassing. So what are we forum plebs going to do about it?
Partly as a result of this site, I've started writing comedy - nothing big, mostly contributions to online magazines, but it seems that I am going to sell a piece for actual real money next week.
By the end of the year, I'm going to put together a funny site that isn't a lame Chris Morris knock-off. If that's well received, I might even try and parlay it into a show of some kind. Brooker is The Way, The Truth and The Light.
Odds are, it'll come to nothing, and I'm sure I'll slip up and insert a reference to something that happened in the past decade and thus taint everything irretrievably with the topical anathema, but that's the only kind of direct action that'll work. What else are you going to do? Write angry e-mail? No-one cares. Parody Danny Wallace? I'm sure he's lying in the corner of his bed-sit sobbing right now.
You've shown that you can write, Corpses, so why don't you try something similar? This isn't the "how can you criticise my comedy?" argument, since whether or not you do so, you are undeniably right that things are currently at a low point. But still, why not?
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Dr. Hackenbush on Sun Aug 27 21:32:21 BST 2000:
One more thing - we really need a noticeboard for important announcements on this forum. There used to be thread where someone was offering to put together a "Forum's Choice" show - I can't find it. The thread about a forum writers' meeting is too long to trawl through. I know you're not happy that people are using this Forum as a social club, Corpses, but eager, semi-knowledgable fans and comedy wannabes meeting up must be a good thing.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By TJ on Sun Aug 27 22:27:51 BST 2000:
Well done Dr H - many of the best ever revolutions in popular culture have been kickstarted by people getting so totally hacked off with the uninspired blandness that surrounded them that they actually went out and did something positive about it by trying to provide an alternative themselves. There is every chance that the current obsession with makeweight sub-Radiohead whingey bands like Travis and Coldplay will make people go out and make some genuinely exciting music again (I know for a fact that this is a strong personal motivation with both Clinic and Ladytron, easily the most exciting British bands around at the moment), and hopefully there will be a corresponding effect in the world of comedy too, as people fed up of being drip-fed Iain Lee and Ricky Gervaise go out and create a whirlwind of Iannucci/Morris/Lee and Herring propertions.
Dr H, I look forward to seeing your stuff - even if I don't personally like it in the end, it will at least be driven by the force of someone with a genuine emotional motive rather than pure careerist aspirations, and that at least is worth celebrating.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Justin on Sun Aug 27 22:59:49 BST 2000:
Oh God, here we go again - I agree with you TJ. As someone who is finding it hard to muster up enthusiasm for all my half-completed "projects", it is nice to know someone is having a shot who isn't part of the media machine already.* Good luck Dr H.
*At least, I assume you're not, Dr H.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Alex D on Sun Aug 27 23:28:02 BST 2000:
This was the TV Nostalgia Forum/New TV Forum/Sci-Fi forum a long time before the Corpses came along. They have no input into what is discussed on this site, that's up to Rob, the webmaster. It's not just for failed comedians/writers to whinge about the downfall of comedy, without ever actually getting off their sponging arses and doing anything about it.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By TJ on Sun Aug 27 23:34:25 BST 2000:
In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is about people being bothered enough to do something about it.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Justin on Sun Aug 27 23:39:22 BST 2000:
>It's not just for failed comedians/writers to whinge about the downfall of comedy, without ever actually getting off their sponging arses and doing anything about it.
Alex. Did we say it *was*? If people want to discuss Grampian idents from 1993, it is entirely up to them.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Dr. Hackenbush on Mon Aug 28 09:45:12 BST 2000:
I know it was a general TV forum before; fine.
I'm not really part of the media machine although I do work in "noo meeja".
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Rob S on Mon Aug 28 14:17:34 BST 2000:
>This was the TV Nostalgia Forum/New TV Forum/Sci-Fi forum a long time before the Corpses came along. They have no input into what is discussed on this site, that's up to Rob, the webmaster.
Er yes, thanks for speaking on my behalf Alex, but no thanks...
> It's not just for failed comedians/writers to whinge about the downfall of comedy, without ever actually getting off their sponging arses and doing anything about it.
Yes, you've obviously been paying a lot of attention then...
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By subbes on Mon Aug 28 23:13:22 BST 2000:
>Yes, you've obviously been paying a lot of attention then...
Well, the "never getting off our arses" bit is obviously verbatim from the Publicity or Bust article.... sheesh.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Bean Is A Carrot on Tue Aug 29 15:15:05 BST 2000:
I agree with everyone, particularly Dr H. We should all get off our butts and change the face of comedy from within or at least try. Oh, I guess we should get within first, but if we try we might be able to get within, THEN we change the face of comedy. Possibly.
Anyway, maybe we should become a band of traveling comedy players, writing and performing our stuff in hospitals, schools, prisons, public parks, ANYWHERE! Not for the money, but because we LOVE IT and we CARE ABOUT COMEDY. And if Avalon signs us up and gives us lots of money and rigs the Perriers so we win, that's great, because once we are within WE CAN CHANGE THINGS, oh yes my brothers and sisters.
Or am I just completely and utterly full of shit?
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By subbes on Wed Aug 30 02:24:39 BST 2000:
Yes!
We must become plastic surgeons or flesh-eating microbes!
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Bean Is A Carrot on Wed Aug 30 12:03:29 BST 2000:
>Yes!
>
>We must become plastic surgeons or flesh-eating microbes!
How will that help us?
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By subbes on Thu Aug 31 02:49:25 BST 2000:
Change the face of comedy....
...from the inside...
...thiiink about it.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Jake Thingy on Thu Aug 31 07:02:40 BST 2000:
Whenever schnides like me point out that student revues (the Oxford Review and the Cambridge Footlights, to use the most obvious, but repeat offenders nonetheless)are crap, the participants often reply by claiming that they are redefining comedy.
Unfortunately, they seem to be redefining it as something that isn't very funny.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By TJ on Thu Aug 31 10:49:03 BST 2000:
Some of the best comedians ever have come from backgrounds that are far removed from the Oxford/Cambridge scene, so it CAN be done. For a perfect example, see Chris Morris.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Jon on Thu Aug 31 10:58:01 BST 2000:
Er, he went to Bristol, one of the top choices for Oxbridge rejects. I wonder.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By TJ on Fri Sep 1 13:54:47 BST 2000:
Yeah, but he came into comedy through a different route. No networking, just doing things his way, Velvet Underground style.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By subbes on Fri Sep 1 22:40:36 BST 2000:
Could someone please define Velvet Underground?
Please?
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By One Day Soon on Sun Sep 3 19:41:52 BST 2000:
>Dr H, I look forward to seeing your stuff - even if I don't personally like it in the end, it will at least be driven by the force of someone with a genuine emotional motive rather than pure careerist aspirations, and that at least is worth celebrating.
Sometimes I just don't understand you lot. Comedy *is* a career. People who treat it like a job succeed. People who do not may achieve cult status but ultimately fail. Most comedians are driven by a genuine love of comedy and the desire to contribute to an ever broadening art form, but they also need to pay their rent or mortgage, put food on the table, pay the electricity bills that power their word processor. Working on the 11 O'Clock Show or any other show you despise is not a careerist move for anyone, it's a financial one. The distinction is important. In comedy, as in any other job, you take what you can get -- and you try and advance yourself to make what you get more palatable, and to get yourself in the position to be able to produce what you think is good. For God's sake, no unpaid, fly-by-night comedian working outside the system ever really changed the face of comedy. You have to do the dog-work to earn the right to do what you want. And most comedians are driven by the desire to do what they think is good -- rarely has anyone ever gone into comedy for the money (except perhaps agents and managers). So, I know this sounds like a simple, fatuous point, but it is *true*: it is possible to be driven by a genuine emotional motive and still have careerist aspirations.
I'm not quite sure what I'm really trying to say here. Perhaps it connects to your regular comments on direct action from within being too difficult. It isn't. It's just too boring. Their are only two ways to get to a position of power in the world of comedy (writing, performing or production):
1. Climb the ladder rung by rung.
2. Convince someone already there that you have an amazing talent that they should use.
Version 2 is much quicker and much less soul-destroying than 1 but essentially impossible. Still don't give up.
I celebrate Dr H's decision to have a go at writing and wish him the fucking best of luck, but I am not convinced that your supposedly fair-minded attitude to his attempts will live beyond this post. I don't know Dr Hackenbush's real name -- perhaps it's Dr Hackenbush -- but when he has something broadcast, if you don't like it you'll lay into it whether or not you like him or not. Unless of course it's a piece of genius, which I strongly doubt. (No slight intended towards Dr H, it's just that whatever you write will undoubtedly sit within the range of bad to good. You have to go a long way to convince people you're a genius. Chris Morris has, but it took him some work. You didn't all just discover him. The PR machine of comedy made you believe you had.)
We all revel in the security of essential anonymity on this site, our real identities hidden behind zany names -- myself included -- and there has to be a reason for that, certainly for people actually involved in the business. I think the reason is a simple one: I'd like to be able to come out from behind my moniker, but I want to be able to contribute to this forum without you judging my comments on what you believe I have or have not achieved as a comedian. If Dr Hackenbush reveals to you all his own additions to the comedy canon, that will inform your judgement of his comments in a similar way. (Yes, I know some of you plan to meet up, or use all or part of your actual names on this site but those who do seem to claim you are not part of the industry. And don't come back at me with Lee and Herring -- they can't go answering your criticisms of their work under false names.)
And anyway, if he starts taking the capitalist dollar with a vengeance for producing material you'll only accuse him of selling out. (I recommend reading this Dave Eggers article on the subject: http://
Now slag me off.
Yours pre-emptively,
The Poor-Little-Under-Appreciated-You-Don't-Understand-It's-A-Lot-Harder-Than-It-Looks-
Honestly-Ah-DDiddums-You-Whining-Fucking-Cunt-Writer, One Day Soon.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By One Day Soon on Sun Sep 3 19:44:37 BST 2000:
Arse.
The link in that last rant should be http://www.harvardadvocate.com/summer00/eggers.phtml
Read it (mainly the addendum on 'keeping shit real'). It's very insightful.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Justin on Sun Sep 3 20:02:48 BST 2000:
In the writers meetings for the next non-awaited series of the 11ocs, are there any plans to do 'comedy' that is not about Dudley Moore's brain disease, "benders", or nurses being "fucking pigs"?
Just wondered.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By One Day Soon on Sun Sep 3 20:08:39 BST 2000:
Apparently yes.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By TJ on Sun Sep 3 22:07:34 BST 2000:
One Day Soon - not everyone has to be careerist.
I'm, for want of a less Guardian-esque term, a 'media anarchist'. I do what I do for fun and for art, not for money. I have a good enough job as it is. If someone eventually pays me to do something, that's fine, but right now I'm happy in the position that I'm in at the moment.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By The Velvet Underground And TJ on Sun Sep 3 22:12:00 BST 2000:
Velvet Underground (noun) - mid/late 1960s American experimental rock band comprising Lou Reed, John Cale, Sterling Morrison, Maureen Tucker, and initially Nico. Refused to censor song lyrics about smack, bondage and "a horse with the bowels and the tail of a rat", thus ensuring no airplay. Represented "the dark side of the summer of love" ((c) Rolling Stone Magazine 1970/71/72/73/74 etc etc etc). Once ordered not to perform a song again at a club they had a residency at. They opened the next night's set with it, and were promptly fired. Huge influence on indie scene to this day. Wore a lot of black. Made some exceptional music.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By subbes on Sun Sep 3 22:16:13 BST 2000:
So. what Rage Against The Machine *want* to be, who instead are so stupidly uncontraversial that they're even appearing at the MTV VideoMusicAwards, fcs.
Ahem.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By TJ on Sun Sep 3 22:24:56 BST 2000:
Exactly.
Do things your own way with a scathing vengeance, that's what I say.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By subbes on Sun Sep 3 22:32:17 BST 2000:
what, throw ashtrays at things?
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By TJ on Sun Sep 3 23:12:01 BST 2000:
No, although I'm pretty sure that the Velvets 'European Son' contains the sound of John Cale throwing a chair through a window, if that's any help.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By subbes on Sun Sep 3 23:54:21 BST 2000:
For a moment there, i thought you'd said "choir". That would have been impressive.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By Rodney Marsh on Mon Sep 4 03:31:30 BST 2000:
choir sounds a BIT like queer
but they are spelt SO different
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By One Day Soon on Mon Sep 4 12:05:09 BST 2000:
>Not everyone has to be careerist.
I never said they did. I'm just defending the majority of those in comedy who do view it as a career.
>I'm, for want of a less Guardian-esque term, a 'media anarchist'. I do what I do for fun and for art, not for money.
Not sure I have any idea what a 'media anarchist' is, so any comparison between yours and my approach seems a little meaningless. After all, you know what I do (if not necessarily where I do it) and as far as I'm concerned that can come under the vague all-encompassing banner of media anarchist if you waffled hard enough. Anyway, not that that really matters because my main point was that to get to the point where you are allowed to create and produce comedy you want takes a career, not a moment.
Subject: Re: The way ahead
Posted By One Day Soon on Mon Sep 4 12:10:07 BST 2000:
Actually I meant 'whim' not 'moment'.
'Moment' sounds too momentous.
