Bloody hell. It's like watching a blind zombie lemming stumbling towards the cliff edge. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Mogwai on Fri Jun 29 21:53:48 BST 2001:

And then being thrown off by Steve Sutherland disguised as Walt Disney. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Ted H. So and So' on Fri Jun 29 22:34:15 BST 2001:

Like a sort of grinning two-faced Mickey Mouse assassin. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Sun Jul 1 17:35:59 BST 2001:

Wahey! We're past the 300 postings mark! Now we CANNOT BE STOPPED!!

Anyhow. I gave the Strokes another chance, I bought their 2nd single, it was even less remarkable than the 1st one. No more. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'James M' on Sun Jul 1 18:49:49 BST 2001:

>Anyhow. I gave the Strokes another chance, I bought their 2nd single, it was even less remarkable than the 1st one. No more.

I like their songs, but the relentless hype is really spoiling it for me, which is a pity. It's a bit like when everyone found out what a twat Brian Molko was (although they got very crap musically after their first album, too), and everyone went off Placebo. This time, it's the irritation of hearing a perfectly good band (or "tribute band" as the local music paper here accurately put it) and then being told about how utterly astonishing they are with absolutely no dissent brooked. At least there are some anti-Starsailor rumblings in the NME from some of the writers.

I can see why the NME want a band who are the complete package, but The Strokes aren't it. They're jaunty and poppy. Not edgy or hard (and the attempts in the NME article to paint them that way were ridiculous). They look like a Britpop band pointed at a NYC '76 artpunk dressing up box. Nowhere in the mythology of the likes of The Ramones, The Stooges or the VU does it mention meeting some of your fellow band members at a private school in Switzerland.

They're not the best band of their generation. They're not even the best band in New York. They'd be the best band in York, perhaps.
Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Tom Adams' on Sun Jul 1 20:54:59 BST 2001:

I said I won't have a word against the Sheds! Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Sun Jul 1 23:16:55 BST 2001:

I heard the Strokes album during my second visit to the NME on Tuesday. It left me completely cold.
Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Jack Welsby' on Mon Jul 2 12:25:23 BST 2001:

>I heard the Strokes album during my second visit to the NME on Tuesday. It left me completely cold.
>
I'm at NME this week, and can reveal that this week's issue will contain hot Strokes news on page 4...
Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Mon Jul 2 13:50:10 BST 2001:

>I'm at NME this week, and can reveal that this week's issue will contain hot Strokes news on page 4...

Anything to do with a rescheduled tour, by any chance?
Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Mon Jul 2 13:53:24 BST 2001:

>is this the end of 'Sounds of the Sixties'?
>
>Jeff Beck is still making music today.

Great series, but those end captions were the birth of Theakstonism.

"The Who did their album Tommy in the 1960s"

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Jack Welsby' on Mon Jul 2 14:39:44 BST 2001:

>>I'm at NME this week, and can reveal that this week's issue will contain hot Strokes news on page 4...
>
>Anything to do with a rescheduled tour, by any chance?

Wait and see...

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Mon Jul 2 14:42:48 BST 2001:

The Strokes are now bigger than Pontious Pilate? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Mogwai on Mon Jul 2 17:34:27 BST 2001:

>The Strokes are now bigger than Pontious Pilate?

It's rumoured that there just might be an incident backstage during their tour involving a music journalist (tbc) and a member of the band carving the legend "4 SKIN" into his own arm... Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Tom Adams' on Mon Jul 2 18:07:40 BST 2001:

Seen and raised, TJ. Almost as much fun as eight hours of VH1 Classics recorded overnight. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Tue Jul 3 13:39:48 BST 2001:

"The Strokes are now bigger than Pontious Pilate?"

Bent, you're just not keeping up with the sensational Hard-Day's-Night-style phenomenon that is The Strokes Explosion. They're already bigger than Thaddeaus The Apostle. Now they've got Joseph Of Arimathea in their sights. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 3 14:40:17 BST 2001:

So, the NME... Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Anonymous' on Tue Jul 3 20:31:46 BST 2001:

>Lush are sadly missed because they were incredibly underrated

Speak for yourself. I don't miss them at all. They were muck, an unrealised 4 AD fantasy, Ivo's little whim that failed to live up to any promise. Lush were overrated, not underrated. The music press fancied the girls, that's all. All I remember were those weak little voices limply whining out drivelsome mimsy you couldn't quite make out . . . because the lyrics were so embarrassingly crap they had to be buried right down in the mix. Dreadful.

Didn't see the appeal of the girls myself. Emma looked like a nice, little middle class girl who would have been more at home working as a Primary school teacher, and Miki Berenyi had the most compellingly ugly mouth I've ever, ever seen. Heard she's a sub at TV Times now.

>and were clearly capable of great things that they never got to achieve.

They had long enough, didn't they? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 3 21:10:14 BST 2001:

I can't let that stand, Sir. No. Emma's songwriting was excellent. You may have been put off by their production, which tended to be dreadful after the first couple of EPs, Robin Guthrie helping to ruin their first album. Also Miki was a very weak singer, like a nervous choir boy dreading the approach of his Bishop sex master. I've got a snippet of them playing live on some shortlived BBC2 or CH4 programme and it's just mindboggling that anyone would stand and listen to that Godawful racket without throwing things at the band. But these are trifling matters when you have pop songs like 'God's Gift' from the 'Black Spring' EP, a joint effort from the lasses. The lyrics are mostly audiable, probably by Miki and are rather good: "Finger in every pie/Can't let a chance pass you by." But what a tune. It's very accomplished, and a perfect example of Emma's style. A potential pop classic, let down utterly in the execution, swamped in BOSS Chorus pedal. Guthrie made the drummer play electronic pads that triggered samples of his drum kit, because it was easier to record and he had no experience miking up a kit. The stupid sod. The end result sounds like one of those toy drum pad things you get from the Argos catalogue. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Tom Adams' on Tue Jul 3 21:16:04 BST 2001:

Given that this thread concerns the state of the NME, I think that its shameless championing of its feeble Camden mates is a major part of its downfall.

I don't have the in depth knowledge of Lush's production. I do know that the tripe that they put out in 95/96/97 was hailed by the NME. When it was precisely the sort of shandy-lightweight crap that they really ought to dismiss. It's not important, is it?

When you add Lush to the other rot that they suggested was good at the time, then you see what happened. the NME was, at that time, a Smash Hits of Indie. And you KNOW they hated having to put Steps at the top of the Indie Chart. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Tue Jul 3 21:26:21 BST 2001:

>I do know that the tripe that they put out in 95/96/97 was hailed by the NME.

Different matter entirely. They "reacted" to Brit-pop by changing style in order hop on the bandwagon like everyone else (see discussion 433 messages above about whether Blur should be included) and the results were inexplicably popular but didn't have any of the old Wilsonesque melodic magic.

>When it was precisely the sort of shandy-lightweight crap that they really ought to dismiss.

That phrase bothers me. Do you want lager-heavyweight? What does that mean? Nu-metal? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Tom Adams' on Tue Jul 3 21:33:44 BST 2001:

Sub-kenickie nonsense is what it means. Rubbish pop but done by their friends. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'James M' on Tue Jul 3 22:20:08 BST 2001:

>I do know that the tripe that they put out in 95/96/97 was hailed by the NME. When it was precisely the sort of shandy-lightweight crap that they really ought to dismiss. It's not important, is it?

They did a lovely cover of "I Have the Moon", it's hard to hate them. Anyway, is it the NME's job to cover bands they think are important or bands they think are good? Which doesn't mean they should just cover their Camden mates, of course. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Tom Adams' on Tue Jul 3 22:21:42 BST 2001:

Both. Neither of which describes Lush. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Tmo Adams on Wed Jul 4 22:31:34 BST 2001:

Of all the things to happen : a discussion about Lush. Which is partially my fault. I apologise to all. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Rob S on Wed Jul 4 22:44:24 BST 2001:

Fuck. Sorry Tom, try again... Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Tom Adams on Wed Jul 4 22:48:05 BST 2001:

Here's hoping...... Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Drucius' on Wed Jul 4 23:25:37 BST 2001:

Can i just point out that while the nation was discovering punk rock and rebellion, the NME was still obssessed with Gentle Giant and bloody Budgie. One had to buy Sounds (or better still, Sniffin' Glue, Ripped & Torn) if one wanted to be at the cutting edge. It wasn't until hip young gunslingers (!) like Parsons and Burchill were hired ('78?)that the NME got anywhere near hep. I reckon the heyday lasted 78 - 82 (ish). Unfortunately after that it was all Errol Goldust and Zootsuits.

Bring back Lunchie Bunsworth and The Three Dots...

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Tom Adams on Wed Jul 4 23:30:51 BST 2001:

i am hindered in my insight into the early punk era by my not having been born.

Given that the NME is largely a reactive thingy now, and apparently has been for some time, you do wonder what the point of it is. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Drucius' on Wed Jul 4 23:35:03 BST 2001:

It's a "new" version of the "Musical Express", i expect. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Beelzebub' on Wed Jul 4 23:59:08 BST 2001:

>It wasn't until hip young gunslingers (!) like Parsons and Burchill were hired ('78?)that the NME got anywhere near hep. I reckon the heyday lasted 78 - 82 (ish). Unfortunately after that it was all Errol Goldust and Zootsuits

I fear you are correct. I haven't bought NME since 1982 and I now read Early Music News. Everyone knows the early stuff's always the best!

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Thu Jul 5 00:20:00 BST 2001:

1977 Annual Poll, NME:

Worst Group: The Sex Pistols
Best Group: Yes Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Beelzebub' on Thu Jul 5 00:23:55 BST 2001:

>1977 Annual Poll, NME:
>
>Worst Group: The Sex Pistols
>Best Group: Yes

Oh, Jesus. NME were still wearing flares in 1979, I bet.
Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'James M' on Thu Jul 5 10:44:49 BST 2001:

>1977 Annual Poll, NME:
>
>Worst Group: The Sex Pistols
>Best Group: Yes

Was that the writer's or reader's poll? The readers of the NME are constantly voting for godawful dadrock and mimsy acoustic dribbling to this day. The staff generally show better taste (at least to the extent of not voting for The Stereophonics and Paul Weller).

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Thu Jul 5 12:20:24 BST 2001:

Readers Poll. I'm pretty certain it was NME anyway. Either that or Sounds... they all merge into one when you plough through hundreds of them. But there was a general feeling that none of the music press really gelled with the new wave until 1978, with the Maker lagging desperately behind. Mind you, the onset of punk did provoke some of the funniest letters pages in music press history. Readers were stubborn with their views on Led Zep, Crimson, Yes and so on. In fact one of my second-hand Sounds contains an entry sheet for the Readers Poll of '77 which is filled in, but was never sent off. Virtually every answer is 'Yes'.

I can confirm that the NME and Sounds were always up for a cover pic of Rob Alford in (lawks!) leather, or Bryan Ferry in a tennis shirt until 78, at which point it became The Skids every week. Or so it seemed... Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Unruly Butler on Thu Jul 5 15:37:11 BST 2001:

I found a time capsule from 1978 in one of the rooms at college when I was still a student. It contained a massive pile of Sounds and NMEs.

I was delighted to find that, despite what they say these days, they didn't have a clue about New Wave or Punk. So I can back you up on this one, Halo.

There was a Blondie interview in one of them that sounded like it was written by Derek Kent (remember?), all "this spunky young filly is certainly easy on the eye..." type writing.

One of the issues contained an ad for Dire Straits on tour with Talking Heads in support, which was a delightful image.

They also seemed to have trouble deciding what was punk, what was new wave and what was pub rock. Not the "we were leading a new movement in music" crap they try and have us believe now at all. There was a real sense in all the copies I saw that punk and new wave had caught them and their readership utterly off guard. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Thu Jul 5 17:31:31 BST 2001:

"There was a real sense in all the copies I saw that punk and new wave had caught them and their readership utterly off guard."

Which is why they'll now champion any old "scene" or "movement" at the drop of a hat... Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Thu Jul 5 17:40:44 BST 2001:

On the official Fall site, there is a huge bibliography section containing loads of old interviews. There is a very interesting one from 1986 in which MES recalls going for an interview in '78 with Parsons&Burchill (big Fall fans, apparently), only to discover they planned to put them on the cover with the catchline "The Fall: the band against the NF". Smith was furious at being made to dance to someone else's tune, and thus stormed out, didn't get mentioned in "the Boy Looked At Johnny", etc.

Search it out. Very interesting. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Thu Jul 5 17:47:07 BST 2001:

Also search out MES's tour diary from 1988, with some amusing remarks about Devoto. Not the sort of thing they would print today.

Which reminds me. I'm supposed to be transcribing a stack of early articles for said Fall bibilography. There's a large file of them to my left. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Thu Jul 5 21:38:51 BST 2001:

>There's a large file of them to my left.

I wish there was some way of clicking on that link. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Mike J' on Thu Jul 5 22:33:07 BST 2001:

Ah. bless. I pop into this forum for the first time in three months to check on the 'Brass Eye Special' rumours, and this lovely old thread is still going. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Peter on Fri Jul 6 01:05:09 BST 2001:

I'm hoping this thread becomes like a wheezing old dinosour, spluttering out useless information to apathetic readers and heading further and further up its own arse.

Juat like the NME then.
Sorry

Actually, i hope it becomes the 'best local tv' thing, and just sits at the top of the forum forever and ever, sometimes disappearing so people think its gone and can celebrate, but always coming back in the end. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Drucius' on Fri Jul 6 01:34:31 BST 2001:

Actually, I don't know if you noticed, but for many years they used to make up their own "movements" like The New Wave Of New Wave (gurn) and Romo. Probably so they could still claim to be at the cutting edge.
I preferred National Rockstar meself. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Drucius' on Fri Jul 6 01:45:05 BST 2001:

Oh, not to mention Camden Lurch Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Fri Jul 6 07:17:31 BST 2001:

It certainly looks like a good manifesto pledge at the top of the forum. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Jack Welsby' on Fri Jul 6 13:05:16 BST 2001:

Here's something I'm sure you'll all enjoy: the big main letter due to be printed in next week's Angst, which allows NME's forthcoming Ibiza/Ayia Napa coverage to appear in a positive light, was made up by Andre due to a publishers' request that Angst should be 'more on-message'.
Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Fri Jul 6 13:58:21 BST 2001:

This week's Angst looks like it was staff-written on the same principles... Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Fri Jul 6 14:30:18 BST 2001:

Oh, and the reason that the Vice journalist has been introduced as NY live reporter this week is surely because everyone at the NME wants to write for the mag. Piers Martin was bandying the recent issue - featuring his political article - about the office like a four-year-old who's just done something good and is keen to impress. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Fri Jul 6 14:34:55 BST 2001:

>I'm at NME this week, and can reveal that this week's issue will contain hot Strokes news on page 4...

What a pointless story it was. Wasn't there some suggestion that the gig was akin to the Pistols/Buzzcocks/Clash at 100 Club? Mindless.

So why are you at the NME, Jack? Or are you "a helpful onlooker" after all? (sorry if I've missed something.)

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Jack Welsby' on Fri Jul 6 14:55:47 BST 2001:

>So why are you at the NME, Jack?

At the moment, I do all their sub-editing holiday cover (Martin Horsfield's away this week, so I'm in to cover him) and any extra sub-editing that arises.

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Fri Jul 6 18:14:47 BST 2001:

"Piers Martin was bandying the recent issue - featuring his political article - about the office like a four-year-old who's just done something good and is keen to impress."

You mean like: "Look, mummy! I done a big poo!" ?

Entirely correct analogy, then... Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Mike J' on Fri Jul 6 21:30:40 BST 2001:

>(Martin Horsfield's away this week

That name rings a bell... I think he was on the B&S list for a while.

Jon - if you are *that* Jon - I'm terribly sorry I never finished your Curve tape. There are two unlabelled C90s *still* sitting atop the cassette deck - one that went a bit wrong, the other a second attempt with some Dead Can Dance on it. Perhaps I should try again?

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Sat Jul 7 17:00:46 BST 2001:

I've got the Curve EPs now, never mind.

Whatever happened to them, eh? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Andrew Collins on Sat Jul 7 17:18:39 BST 2001:

NME didn't invent Romo, that was Simon Price at MM. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Sat Jul 7 18:42:36 BST 2001:

He still mourns its passing. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Mogwai on Sun Jul 8 00:20:00 BST 2001:

>I've got the Curve EPs now, never mind.
>
>Whatever happened to them, eh?

They came back with that one big beat track which was used on an advert (Maxell> Sony?) in 1997. Then they went away again.

I'm not sure if that was the plan exactly, but it's what happened. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Unruly Butler on Sun Jul 8 02:06:26 BST 2001:

Tony Halliday was convinced that her Leftfield collaboration was the beginning of a whole new career.

Still waiting, love? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Drucius' on Sun Jul 8 04:46:52 BST 2001:

I'll bow to Andrew's superior knowledge since I never read the MM which was consistently dreadful. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Tom Adams on Sun Jul 8 10:19:01 BST 2001:

And no staples either. Which was poo Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Sun Jul 8 13:09:58 BST 2001:

I have the MM/Romo special, so Andrew is right. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Tom Adams on Sun Jul 8 13:39:01 BST 2001:

Was that Orlando et al? There was a free tape, yes? Did it also have 'The Great Pub Rock Revival', by Denim, for no apparent reason? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Sun Jul 8 14:07:42 BST 2001:

I remember when Select "broke" the Romo story with a bemused one page article which pointed out that the whole thing had been made up. I don't think they mentioned it again. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By '8Ace' on Sun Jul 8 15:13:19 BST 2001:

That Romo "scene" was utterly laughable. I spent three weeks at Melody Maker in 1997, where I was patronised by Paul Lester ("You look like a member of Ocean Colour Scene") and subjected to quite the limpest handshake I've ever experienced from Robin "Hey, I'm a twat!" Bresnark. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Drucius' on Sun Jul 8 15:26:39 BST 2001:

Well, the NME seemed to like it.
Does anyone recall the dreadful rags that were created to fill the void of a journo strike in the late 7o's? (National Rockstar, New Music News et al). Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Andrew Collins on Sun Jul 8 16:01:37 BST 2001:

> I spent three weeks at Melody Maker in 1997, where I was patronised by Paul Lester ("You look like a member of Ocean Colour Scene")

I knew Lester in passing, saw him at gigs, that sort of thing, not exactly friendly just hot hostile. Anyway, some time after leaving the NME, he and I were on the same Music Week Awards judging panel for something or other, and he came in late. I had long hair at the time (so did he) and he said, by way of a light-hearted greeting across the room, "You've copied my hair."

That's what a conceited twat he was (and presumably still is). I wonder what it said on his t-shirt that they felt the need to "censor" when he was a lame and now bald pundit on C4's Top Tens? Perhaps "Uncut". [A magazine we at Q waggishly nicknamed "Ucunt" and "Halfcut" - in honour of its editor - when it was launched. Glad I've put all that stupid rivalry behind me now.] Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Squidy' on Sun Jul 8 16:35:51 BST 2001:

>That's what a conceited twat he was (and presumably still is). I wonder what it said on his t-shirt that they felt the need to "censor" when he was a lame and now bald pundit on C4's Top Tens?

It was the 'Kangol' logo. They showed it in an trailer for it's original transmittion. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Jack Welsby' on Sun Jul 8 22:39:35 BST 2001:

>> I spent three weeks at Melody Maker in 1997, where I was patronised by Paul Lester

>I knew Lester in passing, saw him at gigs, that sort of thing, not exactly friendly just hot hostile.

I met Paul Lester while freelancing at Uncut last month (spot my name in this issue's credits). He didn't seem very popular there. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Mon Jul 9 13:46:06 BST 2001:

Without too much effort, I reckon we can all put in about 20 posts a day on this strand.

Dickon from Orlando formed a new band Fosca, who are now recording their 2nd album.

Ex-MM people always go on about how NME "more conservative" than them. But apart from romo (which still got a few favourable mentions) the 2 papers covered the same stuff. I don't have any trouble remembering Cast, OCS etc. on the cover of MM.

Riot Grrl was an entirely fictitious "scene" as well.

Incidentally, Andrew, in 1991 you claimed that The farm were "excellent". Do you stand by that? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Mon Jul 9 13:46:53 BST 2001:

I meant 20 posts between us, not 20 posts each. That would be demanding too much. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Mon Jul 9 14:29:27 BST 2001:

>Incidentally, Andrew, in 1991 you claimed that The farm were "excellent". Do you stand by that?

In among their moments of sheer awfulness, which admittedly were nearly all of them, The Farm managed a couple of sublimely brilliant tracks tucked away on their second album. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By '8Ace' on Mon Jul 9 14:41:03 BST 2001:

If you think Andrew Collin's appreciation of The Farm is, in hindsight, a bit dodge, try this one. Alun Jones, editor of MM, went to see The Stone Roses play their last gig at Glasgow Green before they buggered off for five years - Jones promptly announced that the Roses were rubbish and that the future belonged to the Charlatans.

Now you can argue the toss whether Second Coming was shit or not (personally I think it's great), and I've got no qualms about admitting that Browny's got a somewhat eccentric vocal delivery, but to suggest that the Charlatans were better than the Stone Roses in 1990 is tantamount to saying in 1964 that The Beatles have had their day and Herman's Hermits are going to be the next big thing. I reckon. Though doubtless some Roses hating ponce will point out that Jones was actually quite prescient, in that The Roses fucked off, came back, and underwhelmed, while The Charlatans continued to chug merrily along. To which I say, no, you're wrong. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Mon Jul 9 15:50:03 BST 2001:

I fell asleep during side 2 of The Charlatans' debut album. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Mon Jul 9 18:33:03 BST 2001:

Something else about The Farm...

I've mentioned this on this forum before, but I don't know if anyone knew the answer.

Around the mid-80s, C4 showed a doc made by Miles Copeland (manager of The Police) in which he argued that capitalism was brilliant. As part of explaining this thesis he went to Liverpool to argue against a radical young left-wing band.

I didn't see the original show, but I did see "Right To Reply" in which the band's singer came in and complained that Copeland had stitched them up, editing their answers to suit himself.

Was the band The Farm?

They were certainly going in 1983. There was a R1 doc about Peel sessions years back which played a song they recorded in 83 called "No Man's Land", which was an early version of their top 3 smash "All Together Now". Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 10 14:57:33 BST 2001:

>I fell asleep during side 2 of The Charlatans' debut album.

Maybe you did, but I don't feel that's anything to write them off completely for. "Some Friendly" was, admittedly, a patchy album at best, but its highpoints were genuine highs, and in one or two cases (notably 'You're Not Very Well') still sound sublime over a decade on. "Between 10th And 11th" had about the same rate of success, but I am prepared to step up to the plate on this one and say that I believe it was simply the wrong album at the wrong time, and doesn't deserve the mauling it has had since. There weren't many other bands mixing 'indie' with house and industrial rhythms back then, but that's all the 'rage' now, so they tell me.

"Up To Our Hips" was extremely impressive, as they had finally developed the confidence to let their influences shine through rather than hiding them under fashionable trappings, and Steve Hillage was an inspired choice as producer. "The Charlatans" is stunning, pure and simple. "Telling Stories" was wank, but in all fairness they had just lost their main songwriter in tragic circumstances. And "Us And Us Only" is an entertaining album from start to finish.

Maybe not the most epochal group ever to exist, but I don't think they really deserve sneering either.

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Jon on Tue Jul 10 18:06:17 BST 2001:

But I did actually nod off during "Some Friendly".

I always used to say "I'll never buy another of their albums, but I'll buy the Singles Collection", because I haven't minded a few tracks over the years (though I haven't been taken with some other stuff I've heard). "Crashin' In", and so forth. Though I still haven't got round to buying "Melting Pot".

I was referring to SF in the context of the earlier post, about the definite "they're the next big thing" that surrounded them in 1990, and it was bloody disappointing back then when I got the album.

At that stage you couldn't move for chancers trying to stick a John Squire-type sound over the most insipid twaddle, and - I did try with that album, I played it again and again - but it seemed that the majority of it represented what was wrong with music, rather than a great example of the way forward. Good stuff: "Sproston Green" I still like, "109 pt2" showed they did have some ideas, and of course "The Only One I Know". Bad stuff: pretty much most of side 2.

I think they were the first of a string of 90s indie bands (Blur and Suede as well) to get (almost) total uncritical support up to their debut album, then quickly after that you only get little comments about them as a shorthand for being rubbish (Blur definitely went through that in 91-2). But they kept going and held onto a fanbase, and recovered from it all. Fair play to them. The Inspirals didn't.

Did the Inspirals just give up, or get dropped, or what? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 10 18:33:48 BST 2001:

>Did the Inspirals just give up, or get dropped, or what?

They split up after leaving Mute. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'paul twist' on Tue Jul 10 18:40:22 BST 2001:

>>Did the Inspirals just give up, or get dropped, or what?
>
>They split up after leaving Mute.

Though Tom Hingley recently recorded a solo album, and plays the odd gig. When he played in Wigan a few months ago he played 'Dragging Me Down' and I felt like a 14-year-old again. It was lovely.
Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Tue Jul 10 18:47:28 BST 2001:

>Though Tom Hingley recently recorded a solo album, and plays the odd gig. When he played in Wigan a few months ago he played 'Dragging Me Down' and I felt like a 14-year-old again. It was lovely.

Tom's solo stuff is great, I must say. He also does a superb acoustic version of 'Two Worlds Collide', and his voice is as powerful as ever. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Peter on Tue Jul 10 19:51:07 BST 2001:

Jon's just mentioned it, so can someone explain to me the massive appeal of Suede's first album? - it's sounds alright to me, but i'm not frothing at the mouth about how 'exciting' it sounds like some crazed MM or NME journo - i prefer Dog Man Star (and Coming Up, thinking about it), I don't understand. (This of course, is all because Suede won the Mecry Music Prize in 1993, when clearly The Auters should've won it.) Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Justin on Tue Jul 10 19:56:13 BST 2001:

The great Suede album is Coming Up imo. Though when they put out a singles compilation, that'll be good too. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Gedge' on Tue Jul 10 22:11:39 BST 2001:

Dogmanstar did seem to anticipate a trend for 'epic' strings on songs by indie bands, and did it far, far better than anyone else, before it was in anyway fashionable. They lost it after Bernard left, though, and the first LP seems a bit patchy a few years on as well. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Tom Adams on Tue Jul 10 23:12:57 BST 2001:

They did do it far, far better than anybody else, didn't they. Everybody had a pop, though. 'Being Brave' was one that did it worse than most.

Slightly more gravity when Suede did it, though. Only bettered by those on 'Chasing Rainbows'. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Peter on Wed Jul 11 01:18:48 BST 2001:

So, Are Menswear still going then? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Andrew Collins on Wed Jul 11 09:40:36 BST 2001:

>Incidentally, Andrew, in 1991 you claimed that The farm were "excellent". Do you stand by that?

Yes. I even get a happy Proustian rush if I hear an old Farm track today. Innocent times. That band changed my trainers.

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Mogwai on Wed Jul 11 10:40:21 BST 2001:

> That band changed my trainers.

Ah, but did they ever change theirs, etc.

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Wed Jul 11 18:11:43 BST 2001:

Re Jack Welsby's accurate prediction of this week's letters page, did anyone else find that Andre complete missed the point of the letter from 'A Semi-Satisfied Reader', under the heading 'Indie...zzz'? The 'get hip daddyo' response seems to be automated by computer these days.

And 6 pages are printed upside down. Marvellous. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Jack Welsby' on Wed Jul 11 21:25:26 BST 2001:

>And 6 pages are printed upside down. Marvellous.

That's because of the double cover - thus the Ibiza pages align with the Ibiza cover and similarly for Ayia Napa. I'm not sure that it works that well.

If anyone is interested in asking for the reason why getting NME journalists to make up readers' letters in order to keep the magazine on-message is a positive development in NME's history, address your letters to:

Mike Soutar
Managing Director, IPC ignite!
25th Floor
King's Reach Tower
London
SE1 9LS

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Wed Jul 11 21:47:07 BST 2001:

>That's because of the double cover - thus the Ibiza pages align with the Ibiza cover and similarly for Ayia Napa.

But where does that leave the Madonna live review? I'm certain that was flipped round too. I've not got a copy to hand 'm afraid, otherwise I'd check.

>If anyone is interested in asking for the reason why getting NME journalists to make up readers' letters in order to keep the magazine on-message is a positive development in NME's history, address your letters to:

I might just do that. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Beelzebub' on Wed Jul 11 22:51:42 BST 2001:

I liked the bit when the kid whacked Lord Winston in the face with a wooden spoon. Funnier than the whole of last week's comedy output on the BBC put together. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Beelzebub' on Wed Jul 11 22:59:18 BST 2001:

>I liked the bit when the kid whacked Lord Winston in the face with a wooden spoon. Funnier than the whole of last week's comedy output on the BBC put together.

Guess what? Wrong thread! It's the drugs........

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Peter on Thu Jul 12 00:35:26 BST 2001:

Completely pointless though, just turning a few pages over. This means you read the magazine, flip it over halfway through, and then have to flip it back to read the rest.
Not that i read the Ayia Napa/Ibiza stuff. Couldn't give a fuck. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Unruly Butler on Thu Jul 12 09:06:45 BST 2001:

Are NME's target audience supposed to be involved in some feud between people who go to Ayia Napa and the Ibiza traditionalists?

I wonder if anyone outside King's Reach Tower cares? Yawn.

Might buy this year's Christmas special. It could be the last one. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Thu Jul 12 11:02:29 BST 2001:

>Are NME's target audience supposed to be involved in some feud between people who go to Ayia Napa and the Ibiza traditionalists?

Yes, because their plight is oh so important and we should all be desperately concerned about it. Heaven forbid that someone might actually want to listen to music and say how much they like it.


Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Jack Welsby' on Thu Jul 12 17:20:01 BST 2001:

>Are NME's target audience supposed to be involved in some feud between people who go to Ayia Napa and the Ibiza traditionalists?

I don't think 'feud' really comes into it. 'Easy way of covering both Ibiza and Ayia Napa' might.

So Solid Crew seem to have a real problem with the Dreem Teem, though. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Rob Jones' on Thu Jul 12 19:58:12 BST 2001:

That's because The Dreem Teem refused to play Oxide & Neutrino's music at last year's Notting Hill Carnival. Oxide & Neutrino are peripheral members of So Solid Crew, so it all stems from there. They even 'dissed' them on their album 'Execute'. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Peter on Thu Jul 12 20:31:13 BST 2001:

The Dreem Teem don't believe Oxide and Neutreno are 'proper' garage whatever that is. Who do they think they are, Paul Weller?

Anyway, bad news, Artful Dodger have split up Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'Bongo_Gdaza' on Thu Jul 12 21:11:32 BST 2001:

Has he? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Unruly Butler on Fri Jul 13 01:00:26 BST 2001:

>>Are NME's target audience supposed to be involved in some feud between people who go to Ayia Napa and the Ibiza traditionalists?
>
>I don't think 'feud' really comes into it. 'Easy way of covering both Ibiza and Ayia Napa' might.


But multiple covers are usually the way to divide readers into camps (Whizz Kids and Chip-Ite style). Like "Buy your favourite Beatle" last month in Uncut. That's what I was inferring from the split NME - that you could turn it round while reading it to indicate your loyalty.

I don't understand this dance culture anyway. It all sounds like Jean Michel Jarre to me. Bring back proper songs with proper words, and guitars. And rebecs. And tambours. And hautboys and plainsong. Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By 'They stole my pearls away' on Fri Jul 13 09:28:01 BST 2001:

>I don't understand this dance culture anyway. It all sounds like Jean Michel Jarre to me. Bring back proper songs with proper words, and guitars. And rebecs. And tambours. And hautboys and plainsong.

Great idea. I'll play a reinvented ocarina.

Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By TJ on Fri Jul 13 09:28:58 BST 2001:

>>I don't understand this dance culture anyway. It all sounds like Jean Michel Jarre to me. Bring back proper songs with proper words, and guitars. And rebecs. And tambours. And hautboys and plainsong.

You want them to bring back 'Kiss From A Rose' by Seal? Subject: Re: NME disappearing up its own PR
Posted By Bent Halo on Fri Jul 13 10:29:01 BST 2001:

The music selection is immaterial. The writing is the problem.